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Thread: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

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    Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Hi,

    It's me again .

    If you followed my other thread, you probably know that I decided to go with the Mamiya system. This is a focal plane camera (as you know), but there are LS lenses available for it.

    I've been scouting the internet to see if using these lenses will give you the high speed sync capability (1/500) for flash. From my understanding it is possible but I want to check in with the specialists here.

    The manual for the AFD II doesn't mention anything about this and I don't know if this is a feature available for the DF only body or not.

    If anybody that is familiar with this could confirm/deny this, I would appreciate it.

    Thank you,
    Valentin

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    You can easily use old leaf shutter ones with any of AFD series.
    New ones - i am not sure - dont really care for now.

    Old ones actually are very good, but you will need to have 2 release cables or just a single double release cable. Simplest trick is to use 2, you just basically set up shutter speed on camera to be fairly slow in comparition to leaf shutter, and then whatever you feel like or need on the lens.

    I got N-L/S lenses from old manual days, and use them like that.

    Of course FUNNY part is how you wind them up Thats where it gets TRICKY.

    There is dead easy way to adapt it - you basically unscrew one of wee bolts on the bottom of the lens so it would stop release to go all the way, and then you can cock up shutter on lens by simply rotating front ring, without having to disconnect lens from body every time

    Then again - may be there is easier way and i just overlooked it, as i had no one to consult with at the time. But it works for me like a magic for almost a year now.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Thanks Sergei.

    What I'm interested in is that if I get the high speed sync when using LS lenses.

    The DF body seems that it does, but I couldn't find anything about the AFDII body. While they look the same, it could be something internally/software that would allow the DF to sync at up to 1/500 but not the AFD.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    How is one going to trigger the leaf shutter in the lens when not mounted to a tripod and using the special trigger modus on the lens? There are no mechanical parts in the DF or AFD that can set the lensshutter to go off.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Maybe next time instead of scouring the internet you just give us a quick call eh? :-)

    The Phase One AF is not compatible with the new LS lenses. It is compatible with the old LS lenses but without fast flash sync (the leaf shutter in the lens is ignored and stays open and is used just like any other classic mamiya lens - manual stop down / manual focus with focus confirmation). As described above you can sort of "hack" your way into high flash sync with one of these older lenses but the method is not conducive to most shooting.

    The Phase One DF is the only modern Mamiya/Phase system which can sync with flash at high shutter speeds (beyond 1/125th). It is however the fastest studio flash sync available from anyone in any form - 1/1600th when used with a P40+ or P65+.

    For a while they discussed going backward and doing the R+D needed to add this compatibility to the AF but given the time that has lapsed I would say should be considered a non-starter (such R+D is rarely officially "ended" or "abandoned" but you can get a sense when it has drifted too far away to expect resolution). This is tough for me because I like to see as much forward and backward compatibility as possible and in general Phase One and Mamiya have done a great job on that: with very few exceptions any Mamiya lens made anytime in the last few decades can be used on any of the Mamiya/Phase-One bodies. This new breed of LS lenses however apparently required some new electronics that had to be added to the body to make them work well and so simply cannot be easily ported backwards. While I'm very enthusiastic about forward/backward compatibility there is also the issue of dedicating so much R+D to make backwards compatibility work and forgetting to forge ahead - there is some balance to be struck there.

    Bottom line I'll be happy (as a provider of solutions) so long as any break in compatibility occurs for technical reasons (like a new type, not just generation, of lenses requires new body design) rather than marketing reasons (e.g. issuing an "update" to a body which contains virtually no improvements but prevents 3rd party manufacturers from interfacing with the body).

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    Last edited by dougpeterson; 19th October 2010 at 06:09.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    Thanks Sergei.

    What I'm interested in is that if I get the high speed sync when using LS lenses.

    The DF body seems that it does, but I couldn't find anything about the AFDII body. While they look the same, it could be something internally/software that would allow the DF to sync at up to 1/500 but not the AFD.
    Described above is how i sync at 1/500 on any of AFD bodies, using old leaf shutter lenses, but ok

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    The Phase One DF is the only modern Mamiya/Phase system which can sync with flash at high shutter speeds (beyond 1/125th).
    Actually RZ33 can do that faster

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    Described above is how i sync at 1/500 on any of AFD bodies, using old leaf shutter lenses, but ok
    Thanks. It wasn't clear (to me ) if you were talking about just using an old LS lens or actually high speed sync.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Maybe next time instead of scouring the internet you just give us a quick call eh? :-)...
    Thanks Doug. Next time I'll do (or email you). You guys provide great customer service (Dave was very prompt and helpful with the AFDII).

    It would have been nice, but I understand their reasoning.

    Since I have your attention , I have another question in regard to lenses. I am looking to get a portrait lens. Which one is a better performer (quality) between the 150mm 3.5 and the 210 f4 ULD?

    Thanks,
    Valentin

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    Thanks. It wasn't clear (to me ) if you were talking about just using an old LS lens or actually high speed sync.
    Oh sorry. You can use them in regular mode just as any other MF lens.

    But if you want to do leaf shutter - just got to use shutter settings on lens, figure out hot to cock up shutter, and get cable releases and off it goes. It wont fire from camera, of course, thats why you need cable release. Sync port is on lens.

    New ones - you fresh out of luck with AFDII body, just as Doug mentioned.

    --

    For portrait lens, even though it wasnt directed at me - it totally depends on your personal shooting style + type of back you shooting with (crop factor will affect this quite a lot).

    Personally, after playing with AF 150mm i just put it into cupboard (actually need to get rid of it, unless my brother would want it) and replaced it with 150 APO MF version. Gives me one more stop for brighter focusing.

    210 is just a bit too long for my personal taste. But many people love it .

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    --

    For portrait lens, even though it wasnt directed at me - it totally depends on your personal shooting style + type of back you shooting with (crop factor will affect this quite a lot).

    Personally, after playing with AF 150mm i just put it into cupboard (actually need to get rid of it, unless my brother would want it) and replaced it with 150 APO MF version. Gives me one more stop for brighter focusing.

    210 is just a bit too long for my personal taste. But many people love it .

    As of now, I'll be using it with film so it will be full frame. Both would fit with my shooting style (I shoot 90mm to 150mm for most of my portraits on 35mm system). I will be getting a digital back down the road and most likely it will be cropped. From what I saw, usually, the crop factor is 1.1 or 1.3 which is not too drastic. Most of the time I will be using it outdoors so I anticipate to have room to move back.

    In terms of quality, are they comparable or one is better than the other? I saw that the 210 has internal focusing which I really like (don't know about the 150).

    Thanks again for your input.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    Actually RZ33 can do that faster
    Doh! How could I forget the RZ??? I was thinking/meaning modern "645" body but didn't say so and so was just completely wrong!

    RZ provides 1/400th sync with every lens.

    Thanks!

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    well if you used to 90-150 range, then you definetly would want to go with longer than 150mm on 645 Its roughly 85mm in 135mm.

    ULD glass on 210 is a bit better imho, but here is the catch ) Some people look at the chromatic abberations that it corrects as soft-improvement for the portraits Specially will be noticeable when you switch to digital - b/c digital is oversharpen to start from. Me - i just like more punch in portraits and rarely shoot truly soft stuff.

    Which is another option for you, actually - 180mm . Unless you totally want to be AF-ed.

    But again - its all very personal. You may find with med. format that your preferences for shooting do change quite a lot


    this is 150mm/2.8 APO + AFDIII + Leaf (no portraiture or any other funky softening plugins afaik.. i rarely use them nowdays).

    One of advantages of using med. format is that you cant get in closer and personal Thats why i dont really like longer lenses - too much compression and you have to work from far corner of studio / room/ street

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    Since I have your attention , I have another question in regard to lenses. I am looking to get a portrait lens. Which one is a better performer (quality) between the 150mm 3.5 and the 210 f4 ULD?
    My gut feeling is to go for the 210 f/4 since there is a new version of the 150 (the 150D/2.8) that at some point you may work into the budget to pick up, and if you start with the 210 you can add the 150D/2.8 without (much) overlap.

    That said, if you're going for shooting without strobe/flash you may want to go with the 150 if nothing else because the extra fraction of a stop and 25% shorter focal length makes it a (slightly) more hand holdable lens.

    Of course if you can somehow reach for a 150D/2.8 you should know that this new lens is really really good. Just saying :-).



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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Doh! How could I forget the RZ??? I was thinking/meaning modern "645" body but didn't say so and so was just completely wrong!

    RZ provides 1/400th sync with every lens.

    Thanks!
    ))

    yeah in 645 world i'd be happy to trade in all 3 of my AFD bodies for just one new one to be able sometime to use new LS lenses.. but oh well Looks like i am travelling towards RZ instead

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    ...

    this is 150mm/2.8 APO + AFDIII + Leaf (no portraiture or any other funky softening plugins afaik.. i rarely use them nowdays).

    ....
    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    ...there is a new version of the 150 (the 150D/2.8) that at some point you may work into the budget to pick up, and if you start with the 210 you can add the 150D/2.8 without (much) overlap....

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    Thanks to both of you.

    Sergei, is this the same lens Doug is talking about?

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Nope. Mine is old MF one. I just prefer to use MF lenses (altough i tried AF versions) . Just like feel better (less plasticy, built-in hoods and all that), and i dont really care for AF that much.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    AFAIK, from Jack's Mamiya lens overview, there is no 150 mm f2.8 APO lens, but there is an older, manual, 200 mm f2.8 APO lens. Perhaps this is what Sergei has?

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    AFAIK, from Jack's Mamiya lens overview, there is no 150 mm f2.8 APO lens, but there is an older, manual, 200 mm f2.8 APO lens. Perhaps this is what Sergei has?
    I wouldnt shoot with 200mm.. Too long for my style
    Its MF 150mm/A. One you thinking about is IF-D

    My mistake - i thought it read APO somewhere on case, oh well (actually reviews keep comparing its performance with 300mm APO, guess thats why). Still like it

    Bugger.. you made me to go and look on lenses.. I tried to hard to not buy 50/4 for RZ for another month... Grrrrr...(ordered)
    Last edited by SergeiR; 19th October 2010 at 10:04.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    Nope. Mine is old MF one. I just prefer to use MF lenses (altough i tried AF versions) . Just like feel better (less plasticy, built-in hoods and all that), and i dont really care for AF that much.
    Thanks. I wasn't sure since both are 2.8

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    Thanks. I wasn't sure since both are 2.8
    There are few versions actually if you looking at the 150mm lenses to fit 645 Mamiya.

    3.5, 2.8 - AF
    2.8, 3.5, 3.8, 4 - MF

    2.8 are easiest to focus with, rest are ok too. Available light sometime is problem for medium format, b/c lenses arent all that bright (comparing to 35mm cameras).

    Quality wise - i believe that its pretty much up to personal choices, b/c well.. face it - unless you using fine film and going to do drum scans or huge prints, chances of really noticing differences arent all that big, imho.

    I mean i am yet to see mamiya lens that i'd really dont like in either 6x7 or 645. But then i am fairly conservative with length/apperture choices , knowing exactly what i want/need. Or may be its sheer blind luck
    Last edited by SergeiR; 19th October 2010 at 10:12.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Aha.. i knew i had it somewhere online..


    55m manual , leaf shutter lens + AFDIII + Aptus 54s + 2 quadra heads.
    (camera+lens triggered via cable releases)



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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    There are few versions actually if you looking at the 150mm lenses to fit 645 Mamiya.

    3.5, 2.8 - AF
    2.8, 3.5, 3.8, 4 - MF

    2.8 are easiest to focus with, rest are ok too. Available light sometime is problem for medium format, b/c lenses arent all that bright (comparing to 35mm cameras). ...
    Thanks. Is this the one (on the site it says A which I think they are refering to APO) ... I just want to make sure I buy the right one

    http://www.keh.com/camera/Mamiya-645...99001464N?r=FE

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    Aha.. i knew i had it somewhere online..


    55m manual , leaf shutter lens + AFDIII + Aptus 54s + 2 quadra heads.
    (camera+lens triggered via cable releases)


    [Borat voice] Very nice [/Borat voice]

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Yup. I think this is similar to one i have.

    Just remember that with manual lenses on AFD you will have to do manual stopping down, whereas with AF lenses you just roll. (not same with RZ Pro IID for example, where you dont need to stop down MF lenses manually)

    But. Its not leaf shutter version.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    M645 lenses labeled "A" (e.g. 150/2.8A or 120/4 A) are often called 'APO' but are lenses using Ultra Low Dispersion (ULD) glass for enhanced CA control. I have both (shot on 35mm mind you) and love them. Great performance, sharp, smooth focus and bokeh and nice CA control.

    What Mamiya calls it's true APO lenses such as the 200/2.8 APO (have it as well and stellar glass) have white barrels and have "APO" in their name.

    As an aside, the M645 150/3.5 is nice (sold it some time ago), but the M645 150/2.8 A that Sergei refers to easily outperforms it starting wide open. Given the modest price of the M645 150/2.8 and $$ difference between it and the F3.5, I'd pick the 2.8A without question.

    Sergei - Really like the blue shawl (?) portrait. Nicely done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    Thanks. Is this the one (on the site it says A which I think they are refering to APO) ... I just want to make sure I buy the right one

    http://www.keh.com/camera/Mamiya-645...99001464N?r=FE
    Last edited by robmac; 19th October 2010 at 11:23.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    thanks Rob. It was illustration for article on scrims

    As of 150/3.5 AF vs 150/2.8 MF - yeah, i prefer to use MF most of times b/c it feels like its optically a bit better. Plus with MF i seem to take more time and attention

    Only thing is - Valentin was looking for LS version, i think there is one for 150mm (yep, 150 F3.8 A N/L LS ) in old lineup, but i never used it. Its a bit darker and i would imagine - heavier Interest for leaf shutters was reason why i started to look into RZ at some point

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Good point. I think you're right the 150 in leaf config was a f3.8, essentially the 3.5 with the leaf mechanics ( I guess) shaving a bit off the max aperture.

    Agree on MF, love the way it slows you down and 'brings you into' the process more.

    On the RZ - watched a you tube video on the new RZ33 the other day - serious lust.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    On the RZ - watched a you tube video on the new RZ33 the other day - serious lust.
    8))) I am slowly sinking my teeth into ProIID with ZD back attached - less mp, same sensor size, a wee bit less stops though (but passive cooling unlike leaf-inspired ones, which makes for serious decrease in weight)..

    it feels GOOOD.. And syncing at any speed is fun. That + 2 stop ND filter - and i am happy as a clam

    Not that i woud turn down RZ33 if it ever comes towards me, of course.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Thanks for the explanation Rob.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Thanks Sergei. I looked at the RZ ... that's a beast and I need to do some serious work out before venturing outside hand holding it .

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    You're quite welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    Thanks for the explanation Rob.
    Sergei - sounds like you're having fun. Have never shot with the RZ/RB (film or digi), but always wanted to try.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Sergei - sounds like you're having fun. Have never shot with the RZ/RB (film or digi), but always wanted to try.
    As Eli Reed once told me - photography is all about having fun. If you do not enjoy what you doing - whats the point of doing it

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    To make a living...

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ernst View Post
    To make a living...
    From pretty much same discussion, and i wholeheartly agree with it - if you dont like what you doing - may as well start doing something you will enjoy. You know.. sweeping floors or something. To really stand out - you must love what you do. Nothing wrong with being in it for money, i guess. But i'd rather have fewer gigs that i will like and that will be hiring me for what i can do, than having more gigs and be hired out of sheer need (alltough these times will come too, inevitably - but on constant basis? i'd pass)).

    Plus if you ever looked at the income figures for US photographers, statistically they are not all that great. Few making big bucks, sure, but rest - almost scraping moss from cave walls to feed their families, actually.

    Medium format is weird and tricky area and you dont really need it anymore to be published or anything really. Gone are days when for full spread or cover in magazine you'd have to get roll or two of 120/220 film. Heck, i done page spreads with E-1 Thing is - if you roll with photography - there has to be something nagging behind it, some desperate need/attempt to express yourself, and not just money, IMHO.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    ...
    Just remember that with manual lenses on AFD you will have to do manual stopping down...

    I shoot in manual mode so that's not a problem for me.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    I shoot in manual mode so that's not a problem for me.
    well its not about manual mode.

    Its just a bit more complex b/c you need to know lens steps by hand, and also being able to not shift focus while stopping lens down. Other than that - unless you really wanted L/S - this is wee sweetness of lens

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    ..and also being able to not shift focus while stopping lens down...
    If it's too dark (viewfinder) you can't see anyway ... so, no harm done

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Actually you can get brighscreen's focusing screen (not beattie), and it will help a lot ))

    Plus AFD actually still can help with focusing quite a bit - AF confirmation by central is active with MF lenses.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    Actually you can get brighscreen's focusing screen (not beattie), and it will help a lot ))

    Plus AFD actually still can help with focusing quite a bit - AF confirmation by central is active with MF lenses.

    OK, I have a question. I used to shoot Bronica and I don't remember stopping down when I changed the aperture (same on Hassy that I tried this weekend). Doesn't the Mamiya work the same?

    Let's say that you need f8 @1/250 .... when you set the aperture on the lens, does it closes the diaphragm down or it get's closed when the shutter is tripped?

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    OK, I have a question. I used to shoot Bronica and I don't remember stopping down when I changed the aperture (same on Hassy that I tried this weekend). Doesn't the Mamiya work the same?

    Let's say that you need f8 @1/250 .... when you set the aperture on the lens, does it closes the diaphragm down or it get's closed when the shutter is tripped?
    It does keep lens open till shutter released on RZ/RB, it does on AF lenses for 645 series.
    MF lenses on AF bodies? no, not so much. Its mechanical connection that AFD bodies simpley wont have. Same as they wont have connection for L/S MF lenses to do shutter cocking/release, so you will have to do extra move for that.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    It does keep lens open till shutter released on RZ/RB, it does on AF lenses for 645 series.
    MF lenses on AF bodies? no, not so much. Its mechanical connection that AFD bodies simpley wont have. Same as they wont have connection for L/S MF lenses to do shutter cocking/release, so you will have to do extra move for that.
    Thanks.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    One more question (at least for now) ...

    Does the new DF body take a film back? The Mamiya site doesn't say one way or the other.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    One more question (at least for now) ...

    Does the new DF body take a film back? The Mamiya site doesn't say one way or the other.
    Nope.

    However, we have been offering refurbished Phase One AF camera bodies for $899 and these models do still accept film backs.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Nope.

    However, we have been offering refurbished Phase One AF camera bodies for $899 and these models do still accept film backs.


    Steve Hendrix

    Thanks Steve. I actually just received an AFD II from you guys today.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    Yup. I think this is similar to one i have.

    Just remember that with manual lenses on AFD you will have to do manual stopping down, whereas with AF lenses you just roll. (not same with RZ Pro IID for example, where you dont need to stop down MF lenses manually)

    But. Its not leaf shutter version.

    Hi Sergei,

    I got the 45mm MF (non-leaf) and I have a question (hope you know the answer).

    There is a lever for A-M which is basically the DOF preview. This is the only time I can manually stop down the aperture. If in A position, it does not change. Is this the way that needs to be done (via the DOF lever)?

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    ^ correct

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    ^ correct
    Thanks.

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Another question.

    The AFD has a focus indicator (left/right arrows and the circle for in focus). When used with the manual lens, up to f8, it works as expected: showing either left or right arrow when you are too close or past the focus point and the circle when in focus. Above f8 (and sometimes even at f8), I get both arrows flashing. There is basically no aid in focusing.

    I'm assuming that it gets so dark that the sensor can't make up if in focus or not but I want to be sure if this is expected behavior or not (it's a used lens).

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    Re: Mamiya 645 AFD II and leaf shutter lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    Another question.

    The AFD has a focus indicator (left/right arrows and the circle for in focus). When used with the manual lens, up to f8, it works as expected: showing either left or right arrow when you are too close or past the focus point and the circle when in focus. Above f8 (and sometimes even at f8), I get both arrows flashing. There is basically no aid in focusing.

    I'm assuming that it gets so dark that the sensor can't make up if in focus or not but I want to be sure if this is expected behavior or not (it's a used lens).
    None of existing AF systems (MF or 135) on any kind of cameras guaranteed to work on 5.6+ apperture.

    On very bright day i had mine working @ f13

    Hence why i said before - you got to focus, then close down. Its a bit of a tricky situation, but thats how it was working in old days , before jumpers were added to cameras (and how you still have to do it on systems like 4/3 when you use manual lenses).

    So , yep..you just putting lens into M , open wide, focus, close lens, make a shot. In studio you normally ok with 5.6 or wider, no need to go wider.
    .

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