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Thread: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

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    P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    The P25 plus came in and just wanted to run something quick and as i suspected it is better with noise than the p25 . I shot this in my kitchen at F22 because i wanted slower shutter speeds and was at f22 with a 55mm . I'm looking at noise only here but anyway processed in C1 and i can tell it is tuned for this back . Noise was set at the defaults and sharpness is there at a lower setting. This is normal shooting not trying to do anything i would not normally do . If i wanted less noise than I could play more but just want to see what comes out of the can at the given ISO that is provided by the back. This is a visual test. I will post the full image first in order. 50,100,200,400 and 800
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test

    I also chose this for the mixed lighting and did NOT WB it. Daylight and some tungsten. Let's move on to the crops
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test

    Okay the crops at 100 percent same order 50 up. Look at the hood vent , grey is a great place to see noise.
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test

    From my seat extremely good right up to ISO 400 and 800 is very respectable . I have more but a nice start just for grins let me do a 100 , 400 and 800 at 200 percent
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test

    This is pushing a file around okay at 200 percent 100,400 and 800
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test

    Now in good light at ISO 800 and than the last 2 the exposure was bumped up about a half to or more. And from playing around in San Juan i would just add a stop better with the P30 plus back so it's 1600 would be equal to the P25 plus 800
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test

    This is a crop from another image ISO100 and 800. Yes a difference but still very good at the 800 mark. 800 first
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test

    And just for grins ISO 400. Conclusion it rocks the house . I am thrilled at the ISO 400 performance
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test

    test done i am happy
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    I'd be happy too, Guy. They look good. Noise is definitely there at the upper ISOs, but it's usable, and could be removed if need be.

    Thank you.

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    Subscriber Member KurtKamka's Avatar
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Hi Guy, these indeed look good. It's probably difficult to do without a direct comparison, but how would you compare the overall image quality between the P25+ and P30+ backs?

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Hard to say Kurt , For some reason the P25 plus back just has more to it . DR , Color and saturation but hard to say because i did get some nice p30 plus stuff in San Juan. The P30 plus to me is the fashion shooter rig . No moire and a little toned down compared to the P25 plus. It does have a stop advantage but your stuck with it on your back . Shift and tilt stuff are just out plus there is a crop factor good , bad or indifferent depending how you look at it. I look at this as 12 stops of serious DR , extremely good color, tone and saturation plus a file that can be moved anywhere and let's not even mention the detail. Hell any of the Phase are going to be great but to me i am so far over the 35mm line that I have really happy and getting a P45 plus is being a pig and I don't mean that in a bad way. Just mean have a need for it because there is nothing to sneeze at with the P25 plus back. I may move to a P45 plus back but contrary to the betting going on it will be awhile. There is a big jump in price and right now I would rather work on building the lenses. I just need one but I do have my eye on the 28mm also. Lance is sending me one this weekend to play with more. I need to see if the cost is justified. I loved it in San Juan but need more time with it . Folks really need to try these and shameful plug here they need to come to the lighting workshop and try them all first hand.
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    I'd be happy too, Guy. They look good. Noise is definitely there at the upper ISOs, but it's usable, and could be removed if need be.

    Thank you.
    Yes and in good light even better results , so yes they have come a long way in the noise dept. Frankly the ISO 800 is better than my M8 is at ISO 640 from what i can see
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Dale and Kurt from my seat and my opinion is you guys need to make the jump. I know your both after the same things I am after and this just makes sense.
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    Subscriber Member KurtKamka's Avatar
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Guy, I will make the jump in a matter of days ... I'm just torn between the different backs. Can't go wrong with any of the solutions ... but the errors in judgement are magnified at these prices.

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Guy, it does look like the P25+ has nice manners. I think I'd like a P45+ or equivalent, but that's a long ways off for me right now. I want to try 22MP first, though I may start a bit more humbly before going with a back of this caliber. (Maybe follow your path even.)

    Still wrestling with where to draw the line in the sand.
    Last edited by Dale Allyn; 28th May 2008 at 18:12. Reason: typo

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Very nice Guy. I am impressed with the ISO 400 and that is a mighty good thing to have available if you want to be shooting at f/22. Nice kitchen too...

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Guy:

    What does it look like at night with just the halogen lighting?

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Working on it Robert. Check this out from earlier . C1 and LR . LR looks to have a touch more noise at the 800 level but it also has more contrast at defaults

    C1
    LR
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Wow. That's a big difference between C1 and LR. I think I'd need to adjust from defaults for sure. The LR version seems a bit heavy handed to me.

  21. #21
    thsinar
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Guy,

    did you set any NR in C1? There is obviously a NR applied in the first image as opposed to LR. Noise looks better, but a lot of details are lost, which is "normal" and what happens when using a "Luminance" NR, since in the luminance channel there is also the sharpness information.

    It would be more interesting to see the real raw files at ISO 400 and 800 to really judge the noise, respectively if there is some NR going on in C1 by "default".

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Working on it Robert. Check this out from earlier . C1 and LR . LR looks to have a touch more noise at the 800 level but it also has more contrast at defaults

    C1
    LR

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    All tungsten on AWB and i did WB off the paper towel . These are long exposure from 2 seconds all the way to 20 seconds

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Sorry but this blows me away . Long exposures here and under tungsten. Notorious for causing more noise and they actually look better and harder to tell the ISO apart . This I cannot explain except C1 is really fine tuned for tungsten and noise at the longer exposures . i did not change any settings. Now you tell me am i seeing things

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    At 800 i can see some changes but damn folks this is really pretty damn awesome
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Guy, which lens, and did you do any correction (for converging lines)? 55-110mm?

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Where I see the biggest issue is between the metal hood and the cabinet that gap there you see it at 400 and 800 I see some purple . Let me try a correction with Ca and purple fringing.
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Dale the 55mm 2.8 no corrections YET .

    I did not really try and keep things straight so that stuff is off
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Sorry but this blows me away . Long exposures here and under tungsten. Notorious for causing more noise and they actually look better and harder to tell the ISO apart . This I cannot explain except C1 is really fine tuned for tungsten and noise at the longer exposures . i did not change any settings. Now you tell me am i seeing things

    50
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    800
    I agree. This is very clean for tungsten and long exposures.

    Now if you would kindly buy a Sinar back and take the same shots it would really help us all.

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Here I did. I have not seen any real distortion in the 55mm lens. This also is 800
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    This may have helped the 800 a little hit the purple fringe and CA tools
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Looks like it did slightly
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    BTW these lights are low voltage lights like the kind you use outside in the garden. There still tungsten but low voltage and there surrounded by amber glass which makes them even warmer in color temp. Needless to say i am pretty happy with this purchase . i am actually excited , pretty rare when it comes to gear.
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    My guess is that there will be a learning curve in dealing with the higher ISO files. The 800 ISO files look like they need some more careful tuning, where the 400 and lower are generally more solid (duh). The low ISO shots are great though.

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    I agree i am getting with Doug Peterson from Capture Integration next week and he will walk me through some advance C1 stuff to get me on track . Version 4.1 is different than what i am used to working with. Interesting were are doing this remotely on our Mac's from 3k miles away. Using Leopard you can do screen share. have to say this because it is deserved. The folks at CI have been amazing at getting me going.
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Guy,

    did you set any NR in C1? There is obviously a NR applied in the first image as opposed to LR. Noise looks better, but a lot of details are lost, which is "normal" and what happens when using a "Luminance" NR, since in the luminance channel there is also the sharpness information.

    It would be more interesting to see the real raw files at ISO 400 and 800 to really judge the noise, respectively if there is some NR going on in C1 by "default".

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Thierry i am thinking there is some noise reduction going on just bringing it into C1 . I am at C1 defaults and have not added anything to that. Yes the 800 ISO i am seeing some detail loss , not a ton but it is there over 400 and slower. My thinking is you need to work the 800 files some and hopefully Doug at CI can give me some idea's about that , he knows C1 very well. But what I see in the Sinar and the Phase backs is they can get there very well indeed. Not sure of the Aptus and Hassy stuff since i have not had the pleasure of shooting them. But lief in the higher ISO's seems to have gotten much better with firmware and software. Personally i will probably never shoot ISO 800 but nice to know i have some elbow room.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    FYI Luminance is set at 25 and color at 43 . Let me try one lowering the luminance
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Lowered the Luminance to 10 . Looks like it lost some of the smearing or more detail. Looks better to me overall
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  38. #38
    thsinar
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Guy,

    It would really be interesting (and important) to know what happens and how a Phase RAW file at higher ISO is handled by the soft, respectively if some NR is going on "behind the scene" and if one has influence on it or not.

    I am convinced that one should be *free* to apply NR or not more so when one knows that it does influence details and micro-contrast much.

    Can you update us on this, Guy, please, as soon as you know?

    Thanks and kind regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thierry i am thinking there is some noise reduction going on just bringing it into C1 . I am at C1 defaults and have not added anything to that. Yes the 800 ISO i am seeing some detail loss , not a ton but it is there over 400 and slower. My thinking is you need to work the 800 files some and hopefully Doug at CI can give me some idea's about that , he knows C1 very well. But what I see in the Sinar and the Phase backs is they can get there very well indeed. Not sure of the Aptus and Hassy stuff since i have not had the pleasure of shooting them. But lief in the higher ISO's seems to have gotten much better with firmware and software. Personally i will probably never shoot ISO 800 but nice to know i have some elbow room.

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    I agree. This is very clean for tungsten and long exposures.

    Now if you would kindly buy a Sinar back and take the same shots it would really help us all.
    Theirry send me one of those bad boys. LOL
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Guy,

    It would really be interesting (and important) to know what happens and how a Phase RAW file at higher ISO is handled by the soft, respectively if some NR is going on "behind the scene" and if one has influence on it or not.

    I am convinced that one should be *free* to apply NR or not more so when one knows that it does influence details and micro-contrast much.

    Can you update us on this, Guy, please, as soon as you know?

    Thanks and kind regards,
    Thierry

    Have to see what the Phase folks say about this setup they have. And i am still a little lost in C1 so i need to figure that also. I know you can save any setting and make it a preset so you can turn of there Noise reduction there and save that as a default
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  41. #41
    thsinar
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    I wish I could!

    LOL

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Theirry send me one of those bad boys. LOL

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    To me it looks better with lowering the luminance setting. It seems to have more detail in the image that the higher setting was losing
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    I wish I could!

    LOL

    Thierry
    Well we all seen the High ISO stuff of the Sinar and they looked good as well. I just think this is great for us end users that have a bail out when we really need to push the issue. To me ISO 400 on any of these backs if there good than we are golden
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  44. #44
    thsinar
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    that's normal, has to be so: that's why "luminance" NR is so dangerous. Sometimes it is better to reduce it or do not have any at all to keep the details.

    The luminance channel is so important for the sharpness of the file.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    To me it looks better with lowering the luminance setting. It seems to have more detail in the image that the higher setting was losing

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thierry i am thinking there is some noise reduction going on just bringing it into C1 . I am at C1 defaults and have not added anything to that. Yes the 800 ISO i am seeing some detail loss , not a ton but it is there over 400 and slower.
    I have seen this with other Phase samples too. It seems that there is a default NR stage which you can't avoid. Not such a bad thing - these files are all usable - but it means that you can't compare Phase raw v other raw because the playing field is not level. All you can do is compare final results, and even then individual skill and preferences will come into play.

    I can't see a way around it.

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    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Guy,
    Are you using C1 4.1? I found that the defaults are kind of excessively agressive with luminous noise control and that I could move the luminance noise all the way down to nothing or like 8-10 and then just move the color noise adjuster up until the color noise went away - result was a much better file.

    Take a look, not at the vent hood, but at the granite and see how your iso 800 rendering bites in that area. I'm guessing you'll get that detail back with the luminous noise set down to almost zero and be even happier with your p25+ files.

    Also there is a recent thread on Luminous-landscape on noise with the p25 that is a useful read.

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Yes they were all at the defaults coming in at 24 luminance than the last one I reduced down to 10 which resulted in a much better detail file.What I will do in C1 is reduce the luminance than make that he default in 4.1 . I learned something new today and that is i agree pretty aggressive default but I can reset that to something at a lower value and pick up some detail in the 800 files. Carlos that last one was at 10 which looked pretty good. This is something I wanted to go over with Doug at CI is to find some of the best settings than apply them as defaults. One thing we need to remember is C1 is made for many camera's so defaults with one brand maybe totally different from another so I think we need to find each camera's happy spot.
    Now given this , they may not be doing something on import , just the default for the P25 plus is too high on luminance. So i want to be careful here because I simply am not sure if anything else is being done or not on import. That answer will have to come from the C1 folks.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    I have seen this with other Phase samples too. It seems that there is a default NR stage which you can't avoid. Not such a bad thing - these files are all usable - but it means that you can't compare Phase raw v other raw because the playing field is not level. All you can do is compare final results, and even then individual skill and preferences will come into play.

    I can't see a way around it.
    That may be true but the test seems valid enough to me to give an interested party a pretty good idea of what to expect. I think there are more significant differences between the Sinar and Phase backs than how well they handle noise at higher ISO. Based on Thierry's post and this test by Guy, it seems they both do a fine job of it, much better than previous generation backs.

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    I agree David the Sinar and Phase really look good at the high ISO's . I can only speak of the Phase as you all know and I don't like to do that too much because i do like to be as neutral as possible no matter how much money i spent on it . I like a level field when testing and I do know I am situations that cause noise in a big way. I am a torture tester, I like the worst case situations because that gives us all better clues as to what is going on.

    No watch this the bathroom scene again . First one is the defaults of L 24 and C 43 than the second one I brought down the L to 5 and color up . So L5 C 60 and it got a little grainier but the detail is much better , now you could actually take this a step further in noise ninja and probably clean up more and when in the soup may not be a bad idea. But i do like this setting much better. I should point out again i am walking you through my process of learning and at the start i maybe wrong like i was with the Luminance being high but this stuff will happen to everyone so . This is good to know the process and what results start working better .No matter how we slice it the high ISO are working we just need to fine tune to your liking
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: P25 Plus noise test/ Very Boring sorry

    See the noise picked up a touch but I like the detail better. Here is the full image of the bathroom. Okay i need to tiddy up . LOL But this is the lower L level
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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