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Deciding which digital back - how do you know?

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Halo,

Wait until Phase One announce their new product:
- New sensors (different technology)
- New Bodies, including one with anti shake!! n multi focus points
- New Software :)
- New Lens

A lot of new exciting thing is happening.
- There will always be something around the corner.
- Medium format's history is full of delayed or shelved projects.
- Phase / Mamiya have a pretty good history of forward/backward compatibility of their products.
- It's very unlikely that a new body with a new sensor will be in the same cost-neighborhood as a used or demo P30+ on his AFD2. Brand new / best-in-class product releases always carry a price premium. If the OP has the budget to be buying a new 40+ or a 65+ he'd be covered by the 18 month investment protection plan which would give him 90% of his purchase price towards any new back he upgraded to. My impression was his budget was more around the used 30+ mark.
- Every good medium format dealer does everything possible/practical to make and keep long term customers. Upgrades, trade-in, cross-trades, and stopping someone from buying if the "next thing" is coming out next week or even next month. In a way we want you to be burned even less than you do because you're likely to tell a friend or two either way!

And most importantly...
- It's very hard to take pictures with a camera which is "just around the corner" rather than "in your hands"

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
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Buy Capture One at 10% off
 

Valentin

New member
Halo,

Wait until Phase One announce their new product:
.....
A lot of new exciting thing is happening.
- There will always be something around the corner.
....
- It's very unlikely that a new body with a new sensor will be in the same cost-neighborhood as a used or demo P30+ on his AFD2. Brand new / best-in-class product releases always carry a price premium.....

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One at 10% off
Thanks Dan. Doug pretty much summed up the situation (no Jersey Shore association here :D ). I need to keep the compatibility with film so new bodies are out of the question (at least for now) and I don't have the budget for a brand new back.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Just to weigh in if you are after a good back for ISO 400 than no question the P30+ on a budget is the best option. BTW it does a amazing ISO 800 so plenty of elbow room.
 

topgreat

New member
Another vote P30+. I have it for a while. If you do not use it for T/S, it will be a good choice. What I don't like on P30+ is the LCD screen. It is small and does not have good DR. You will find that actual pictures look very much better that on the screen. Leaf may have a better screen.

Its performance on my Phase One 28mm is excellent. Good noise level at ISO400 and acceptable at ISO800.
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
..... What I don't like on P30+ is the LCD screen. ....
Are you talking just about the P30+ or all the Phase backs? :D

eh, ....could also be middle-age hitting my tired eyes.... Maybe we can get one of those plastic magnifier pages that they sell at Border's Bookstores and cut it down to size... :ROTFL:
 

Valentin

New member
Thank you everybody, I really appreciate your input.

It looks like the P30+ is ahead of the pack :) (for my requirements).

What's the difference (aside from interface) between the P+ backs and Leaf one? More exactly, are there any benefits of one over the other? Are they the same with only the interface that's different? Spec wise they look similar, but it's hard to quantify the performance from that alone.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Thank you everybody, I really appreciate your input.

It looks like the P30+ is ahead of the pack :) (for my requirements).

What's the difference (aside from interface) between the P+ backs and Leaf one? More exactly, are there any benefits of one over the other? Are they the same with only the interface that's different? Spec wise they look similar, but it's hard to quantify the performance from that alone.
Quality wise the Phase One P30+ and similar Leaf offerings are going to be generally very similar, especially at low ISOs. The differences originate from the fact the P30+ uses a Kodak sensor with microlenses and the Leaf backs use a Dalsa sensor without microlenses.

Some prefer the color (especially skin), tonality, and other very subtle and hard to define characteristics of the Dalsa sensor while some prefer the Kodak. If you had to pin me down I'd be in slight favor of the Dalsa sensor in this regard (all Leaf backs and the P40+/P65+). However the differences here are subtle/nuanced.

The Kodak sensor is much better at long exposures and with Phase's talent for long exposures the 30+ can run an hour long exposure (or more/less depending on ambient temperature) whereas the Leaf backs all max out at 30 seconds or so. Sounds like this wouldn't be very important for your intended use.

The Kodak sensor have aggressive microlenses which give it a stop or so of "free" ISO (the only drawback - it's not suitable for use on a view camera or technical camera - doesn't sound like it would matter given your intended uses).

Leaf's UI is a large touch screen and provides better focus-check (view at 100%) and a significantly larger preview than Phase's significantly smaller LCD. Leaf's UI is deeper and allows more control in the field (e.g. you can set up file names and folders while shooting) but is a bit slower to access basic functions like ISO. The Phase UI is ultra-simple, and while it does not provide many advanced features it does provide a very quick/easy way to access ISO and other basic functions, and since it uses large buttons is easier to use with gloves on.

Leaf backs have tended to shoot faster shot-to-shot for any given file size, especially tethered, but the 30+ is quick snappy shot to shot so I don't foresee that being a big issue for you. The Leaf battery can be purchased in multiple sizes, and if you're willing to use the largest (triple deep battery) it will last a long time.

All digital backs systems can only do "live preview" when tethered to a computer and only perform well in controlled lighting situations (e.g. food/still-life/product/table-top). Leaf's Live Preview is a full step ahead of the P30+ Live Preview. Dalsa sensors do Live Preview better than Kodak sensors, but even so the two Dalsa-based Phase One backs (the 40+ and 65+) do not have as nice a Live Preview as Leaf. Again, doesn't sound relevant to your use - it's more a tool for still life / product shooters.

Digital backs are very reliable and not prone to "fail" but should you be unlucky you should know that most Leaf repairs can be done in the US compared to Phase where most repairs must be done in Denmark, and Leaf repair bills are generally less expensive. Hopefully neither system would ever need any repairs but I want to be thorough.

Really there are very few "bad" systems in this space. The 30+ just seems the best fit for your needs. The only thing that would give me pause would be skin-tone and skin-tonality out of the box (which Leaf is a slight edge for) and LCD (which Leaf has a much larger one of). But the ISO performance of the 30+ to me trumps any other consideration. The only real way to be sure would be to rent or otherwise get your hands on one of each. Guy/Jacks workshops, our studio locations (Atlanta/Miami), our reimbursable evaluation rental program, a friend/colleague that has one would all be good ways to get real hands-on time to make a final decision.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One at 10% off
 
Last edited:

Valentin

New member
....

Really there are very few "bad" systems in this space. The 30+ just seems the best fit for your needs. The only thing that would give me pause would be skin-tone and skin-tonality out of the box (which Leaf is a slight edge for) and LCD (which Leaf has a much larger one of). But the ISO performance of the 30+ to me trumps any other consideration. The only real way to be sure would be to rent or otherwise get your hands on one of each. Guy/Jacks workshops, our studio locations (Atlanta/Miami), our reimbursable evaluation rental program, a friend/colleague that has one would all be good ways to get real hands-on time to make a final decision.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One at 10% off

Thank you Doug. This information is very valuable. I don't know anybody that has those sensor around me. It looks like it might be cheaper to fly to one of your locations for a day than actually rent them. :) ... Miami in the winter sounds very tempting ....

It helps to see the pros and cons of each (from an objective point). Of course, as they say, the proof it's in the pudding, I will need to try both under the same conditions and see how the files look (that's the subjective part).
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Thank you Doug. This information is very valuable. I don't know anybody that has those sensor around me. It looks like it might be cheaper to fly to one of your locations for a day than actually rent them. :) ... Miami in the winter sounds very tempting ....

It helps to see the pros and cons of each (from an objective point). Of course, as they say, the proof it's in the pudding, I will need to try both under the same conditions and see how the files look (that's the subjective part).
If you do fly in we can have both here for your evaluation and after making your decision we can ensure that several hours of software/digital-back training are included in the kit (back/accessories/warranty) that you purchase. That would eliminate a lot of the learning curve.

Plus the weather, women, and beer in Miami is fantastic.



Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One at 10% off
 

Valentin

New member
If you do fly in we can have both here for your evaluation and after making your decision we can ensure that several hours of software/digital-back training are included in the kit (back/accessories/warranty) that you purchase. That would eliminate a lot of the learning curve.

Plus the weather, women, and beer in Miami is fantastic.



Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One at 10% off

Thanks Doug. I'm trying to see if I can work something out with my boss for this winter (aka, my wife :) ).
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Doug is a young, single man -- what else do you expect him to be thinking about after work?

:D,
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
Doug is a young, single man -- what else do you expect him to be thinking about after work?

:D,
Actually, that's before, during, and after work.

Lucky for Dave, Doug knows his stuff so well..... :D


Doug---p.s. maybe I missed it, but is there a summary/rundown how your trip went back to Phase in Denmark?
 

Valentin

New member
Seems kind of odd to me that a dealer needs to offer up women and beer to get a guy to come try out a digital back - really?
That's the icing on the cake :)


ETA: on a serious note, Doug has been very helpful and shared great information that helped in my decision making (both here and via email) for choosing a camera system as well. Thanks.
 
But kind of unprofessional don't you think? My goodness - don't you have a sunset bar here for that? This does seem to be kind of a boys club here though, especially with the boys at CI. I would rather concentrate on the camera equipment than chasing women and getting drunk, but I guess I'm in the minority here. Oh well.
 
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