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Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

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ptomsu

Workshop Member
@ Johnny.. and Symbolphoto

I like this forum because I got (and continue getting) a lot of information out here by good discussions and not wasting time with useless debates. If someone does not believe in what is said here, then simply leave it alone and go either to another thread or another forum!

I owe this forum here so many good information, tips and discussions and I definitely want o keep that as it is!
 

fotografz

Well-known member
In the official publication "Leica Courrier" no. 89 in Switzerland...
Switzerland ... that'd be why I didn't see it ... ;)

Thanks, hope Leica continues to do well ... I need them to stay in business for my M10 and 28/1.4 ASP :thumbup:

-Marc
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
@ Mark

fully agree with your comments on battery and H system! This is actually a major design advantage over the other market leader in MFDB.

Having said that - the S2 battery performs even better - but this is a newly designed camera.
To quantify the battery performance in the S2:

Typical battery life is about 2,000 shots, including chimping and having the camera powered on all the time. With a second battery in the vertical grip, battery life is about 4,000 to 5,000 shots.

I was in the Smoky Mountains two weeks ago, shooting with the S2 (no grip/2nd battery). I shot from sunrise to sunset, with temperatures dipping done into the 20's (F) and shooting a lot of long multi-second exposures with ND filters (waterfalls). My battery level never dipped below 50% on any given day of shooting.

The battery life is very good.

David
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
To quantify the battery performance in the S2:

Typical battery life is about 2,000 shots, including chimping and having the camera powered on all the time. With a second battery in the vertical grip, battery life is about 4,000 to 5,000 shots.

I was in the Smoky Mountains two weeks ago, shooting with the S2 (no grip/2nd battery). I shot from sunrise to sunset, with temperatures dipping done into the 20's (F) and shooting a lot of long multi-second exposures with ND filters (waterfalls). My battery level never dipped below 50% on any given day of shooting.

The battery life is very good.

David
I knew it would be substantially better, but I had no idea it was so much! Wow!!!
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Marc (fotografz),

I should have been more precise when referring to a battery re-set. I'm not talking about the charging aspect, but having to remove the battery when the camera freezes up. Several times I've had to do this when for example, I want to change priorities or ISO settings. Although, the battery in my Canon 1Ds mkII, would go approx. 2000,(two thousand), captures before needing a charge. Yes, I've read the manuals and everything else related to the H4D prior to use, but still only get around 200 captures per charge. 95 %, of my shooting is done outdoors, everything from hiking into canyons, skiing and high altitude; even though the ambient outdoor temp. is always within the H4D's temp range. I'm thinking of buying a third battery to make sure.
I know dust gets on a sensor no matter what you shoot, the nature of electrical conduction almost guarantees this. One should always power down the camera before changing lenses! Proper grounding is essential, I always touch the metal case on my Mac, or even a metal screw on a switch plate prior to working with the camera. Studio shooting is pretty straight forward, you don't have to scramble for the best light and weather and battery performance are not factors. I like weather photography and the most dramatic images are usually when it's not dry. Obviously, no one should shoot unless the gear is protected, but light precipitation or gentle spray from a waterfall should not be a concern with a weather sealed camera. My first H4D, had to be replaced because of a piece of solder or spring came loose. Combine that with numerous camera resets and a less than stellar battery performance... That said, the IQ, is outstanding, the fact that i've cropped images with an 80mm to look like i used a zoom is impressive! Hasselblads glass is impressive. Their customer service is the best in the business, they want you to be satisfied. This is a fantastic camera that produces outstanding images! I think the Leica S2 needs more time to work out the kinks, but I will be interested in actual user reports from the field. Does anyone produce an affordable weather housing for the H4D?
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I read this with a chuckle in my belly. I have been a Pro for 35 years and counting and the real definition of a working Pro is simply this. Every shot you take every situation you are in no matter what is on the line or the simplest thing in the world to shoot are two very basic principles. Better write this down and remember it One is your job is to solve a issue or a situation Two there is ALWAYS a workaround. Once you master both of these you have the world eating out of your hands. Basically it comes down to this your thrown in a bull pen One you have to figure out your best way out and two you will find something to get your *** over the fence quickly. If you can't coordinate those two than your dinner.:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL: Same with the BUSINESS of Photography.

Which exactly leads me to this , need more battery life buy more batteries need weather sealing do what everyone on the planet does in the video business and sports business get a freaking cover. Or if your a cheap skate get a 2 gallon zip lock bag.

Find a solution. Now you all know I am busting your chops here because I love you all so much and it's my sick sense of Friday humor but bury those two points in your head you will go far with them. You need to be a MacGuyver and a Swiss Army Knife.

Just a FYI. I have one and live in the Desert go figure
 

tjv

Active member
If you really like latest and greatest innovation in MF digital then go for Phase! Nothing will top their technology advantage they have today.
I'm not disputing this comment but I'm interested in why you say this. I don't currently have a MF system but when doing research it seems on paper that Hasselblad currently have the more innovative product, i.e. they have True Focus, an integrated system (one battery for body and back etc,) and accessories like the HTS. They also now have a 60mpx back with, I believe, a higher resolution screen than the P65+. Again, I'm not disputing your claim, I'm just interested in why most people say Phase have a technology advantage. Is it that they release upgraded products more frequently?
 

jonoslack

Active member
two very basic principles. Better write this down and remember it One is your job is to solve a issue or a situation Two there is ALWAYS a workaround. Once you master both of these you have the world eating out of your hands.
Hi Guy
you arrange the group shots in the lovely gravel sweep outside the house - you know there'll be just a bit of light left - you set bollards to make sure that nobody parks there . . . . . . The wedding is late . .. when you get back to the house it's pissing down with rain, and absolutely dark. . and someone moved the bollards, and there are 4 BMW's and 3 Mercedes in the sweep.

. . . . . .. . there is ALWAYS a workaround :)

But . . . truth to tell, I'm identifying with your rules (oh Yes!). But these rules apply to ALL business situations (at least, they apply to all the ones I'm involved in).

But I have no rights to be here . . . I don't believe I've even TOUCHED a Hassleblad!
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
LOL you are in your house my friend and can go in any room you want. There is always a chair for you. LOL

BTW I agree it does apply to all business.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I read this with a chuckle in my belly. I have been a Pro for 35 years and counting and the real definition of a working Pro is simply this. Every shot you take every situation you are in no matter what is on the line or the simplest thing in the world to shoot are two very basic principles. Better write this down and remember it One is your job is to solve an issue or a situation Two there is ALWAYS a workaround. Once you master both of these you have the world eating out of your hands. Basically it comes down to this your thrown in a bull pen One you have to figure out your best way out and two you will find something to get your *** over the fence quickly. If you can't coordinate those two than your dinner.:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL: Same with the BUSINESS of Photography.

Which exactly leads me to this , need more battery life buy more batteries need weather sealing do what everyone on the planet does in the video business and sports business get a freaking cover. Or if you're a cheap skate get a 2 gallon zip lock bag.

Find a solution. Now you all know I am busting your chops here because I love you all so much and it's my sick sense of Friday humor but bury those two points in your head you will go far with them. You need to be a MacGuyver and a Swiss Army Knife.

Just a FYI. I have one and live in the Desert go figure
:ROTFL:

A grizzled old Executive Art Director once told me that 90% of this game is getting your behind out of a jam.

He was right on ... and I found that each jam teaches you another level of workarounds, and the more low tech the solution the more reliable it is as a back-up.

To follow up on Jono's tale ... I'm shooting a wedding party on location with a H3D-II/31 ... I caution the couple that there are severe storm warnings, but they insist on the location which is about 400 yards from the Limo over a bridge. Suddenly storm sirens began wailing and in an instant a wall of water hits, with a howling wind driving the rain vertically. l was soaked to my undies before I could even turn to run ... and as I ran, I severely pulled my ham string. At the car I get my doorman's umbrella to start limping back for the B&G. The wind literally rips off the cover and it disappears off into the dark sky. Poor Bride looked like a drowned rat.

I had 5 hours left on the shoot ... the deluged H camera worked perfectly :thumbs: ... my body did not :(

-Marc
 

jonoslack

Active member
To follow up on Jono's tale ... I'm shooting a wedding party on location with a H3D-II/31 ... I caution the couple that there are severe storm warnings, but they insist on the location which is about 400 yards from the Limo over a bridge. Suddenly storm sirens began wailing and in an instant a wall of water hits, with a howling wind driving the rain vertically. l was soaked to my undies before I could even turn to run ... and as I ran, I severely pulled my ham string. At the car I get my doorman's umbrella to start limping back for the B&G. The wind literally rips off the cover and it disappears off into the dark sky. Poor Bride looked like a drowned rat.

I had 5 hours left on the shoot ... the deluged H camera worked perfectly :thumbs: ... my body did not :(

-Marc
I bow to the master of disaster . . . I'm just a learner in the game of the wedding. . the other rules is that you MUST keep smiling.

Thelonious Monk was being interviewed by a rookie reporter who said something like "Mr Monk, you seem to make a lot of mistakes" to which he replied:
"Man - there is no such thing as a bum note . . . it all depends on how you resolve it"
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Guy,

Wait...what? Well, that logic might be okay, if, as in one of your previous posts you're only 3 minutes from your house when you drop a lens. What's interesting is that you opted to drive an hour to replace it instead. Let's say you're climbing deep into a canyon that has a very short window for "magic light", you've brought extra batteries, safety straps, even rain protection, and there it is...the sun starts to rake the top of the trees, the mist becomes more evident as the color temp changes and the canyon is you own personal fire works display of red and yellow maples. The waterfall is perfect as you compose what is sure to be your best photograph ever...then the slap of the shutter is different as your camera now becomes a 5lb. paper weight. No amount of coaxing or re-setting is going to get it to un - freeze. Sunshine and lollipops are not going to get the camera to perform. If I knew that bigfoot was going to ride a unicorn down the street wearing a coconut bra, I would grab the camera that is reliable, and right now I don't know which one that is. Although, it's a 35mm, my Canon 1DSmkII, never, ever had issues...even in the rain!
 

Mike M

New member
If I knew that bigfoot was going to ride a unicorn down the street wearing a coconut bra, I would grab the camera that is reliable, and right now I don't know which one that is.
lol! that one made me laugh

I think Guy's point is good. Something like weather sealing can be worked around and might not be enough of a reason to spend 10s of thousands of dollars changing camera systems. But to each his own...everybody is working in a different context. Heck, I'm wondering why you guys want to be out in weather that would require sealing. F that - I like a cozy studio :) The only time that I may have needed weather sealing in the past was when my friend Heather let me take pictures of her in the shower.

One thing is for sure...It's getting harder and harder for people to conjure up reasons to bash the S2. They may or may not like it...but it's getting harder to find real solid reasons to bash it
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well outside of 5 minutes I do honestly carry a backup. Usually pack a 4/3rds camera in my bag. Or just chuck the 35 mm in back of car but in the wild it out on location for clients I do carry something for sure.more my point is do you really want to be in a down pour with a 30k system without a real rain cover. Sure weather sealing sounds nice but try changing a lens. You want at least some real protection. Yes it is a nice feature but let's be honest more marketing than real world. I would not risk a S2 in any amount of weather just like I would risk a Hassy or Phase. I want some external protection.
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Mike, nice...feel free to post those pics!

Guy, excellent points, no, I definitely would not want to shoot in the rain and those rain bags are handy, but I do seek out those kind of landscapes. The reliability factor is obviously more important and the weather sealing is a bonus.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I agree reliabilty is so important and we really do need to watch our CYA and prepare for the worst. The hard part as we have chatted about is MF true backups are in the tens of thousands. Which really makes it tough to come up with good solutions
 

fotografz

Well-known member
lol! that one made me laugh

I think Guy's point is good. Something like weather sealing can be worked around and might not be enough of a reason to spend 10s of thousands of dollars changing camera systems. But to each his own...everybody is working in a different context. Heck, I'm wondering why you guys want to be out in weather that would require sealing. F that - I like a cozy studio :) The only time that I may have needed weather sealing in the past was when my friend Heather let me take pictures of her in the shower.

One thing is for sure...It's getting harder and harder for people to conjure up reasons to bash the S2. They may or may not like it...but it's getting harder to find real solid reasons to bash it
Has there been any real S2 bashing ... at least on this forum? I've seen considered questions about it. Besides, what's not to like with-in its own set of specifications? If those specifications do not fit a photographer's needs then it isn't the right camera.

Personally (and I MEAN personally), I've yet to see convincing images from it, and consider some of the raves about some S2 images as an example of "The Emperor's New Clothes". At the end of the day, the images are all that count no matter what it all says on paper. I'm chalking it up to that it's new, and yet to be explored and exploited fully. Time will tell.

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
All of us have had our "go to" camera when you absolutely have to get the shot ... 100% track record of 100% reliability ... until it's not. ;)

-Marc
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I'm not disputing this comment but I'm interested in why you say this. I don't currently have a MF system but when doing research it seems on paper that Hasselblad currently have the more innovative product, i.e. they have True Focus, an integrated system (one battery for body and back etc,) and accessories like the HTS. They also now have a 60mpx back with, I believe, a higher resolution screen than the P65+. Again, I'm not disputing your claim, I'm just interested in why most people say Phase have a technology advantage. Is it that they release upgraded products more frequently?
This discussion easily could open another rathole :) Anyway here my answer, maybe some others can answer better.

1) In terms of innovative product - depends what you see as innovation ??? H has the TS adapter, but did you really try it? I have one, a great tool, but it makes your bulky MFD cam even bulkier. No more AF etc. I meanwhile prefer a tech cam + MFDB here! But this is a personal opinion of course.

Phase has TS lenses meanwhile - a Schneider lens, which without any doubt I rate upfront higher than any Fujinon H lens!

2) True Focus - innovative for sure, but the Phase DF is at least as fast, without True Focus, but did we have TF before and did the shots not get sharp? Not to speak about the S2 which in my opinion is toping both H and P

3) 60MP back - you could get the P65+ for almost 2 years now, in times when H was only able to deliver 50MP. It took them 2 years to make their promises true and come with a 60MP camera. Meanwhile Phase already has a 80MP back (Leaf). How long will it take H to come there?

4) Higher resolution screen - I could not care less about a higher res screen, or larger screen, but I would really love a screen which is easily readable even in bright sunlight. All vendors suck here!

In terms of digital and digital workflow (C1 Pro) Phase has the clear technology advantage today and I see no signs they would give that up.

Having said all this, my mind is that Leica is interesting nevertheless because of their S system which actually is also on top technology wise, but sure a bit limited in terms of flexibility - at least today.

All these systems are great systems, it always depends on what you really need. I would not buy pure technology leadership, if the system does not fit my needs - right?
 
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