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Thread: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Solution to a non problem? That is, by definition an oxymoron. Honestly, the Phase One 645 DF does not attract as much dust, period and does not require a rubber band. When using a brush, make sure you discharge the dust from the previous cleaning otherwise you'll drag it over the sensor...again. Get a brush such as the BRUSHOFF, by Photographic Solutions, it's the best on the market for using a brush on the sensor
    "Solution to a non-problem" is a common phrase in the English speaking world ... Google it.

    The H4D attracts more dust than a Phase One 645 DF? Now I've heard it all. Just exactly how could that be? ... other than just saying anything on the internet without reasoning or proof. Maybe it's the magnetic personality of the H4D that does it ...

    -Marc

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    For a moment there, I thought that I was over at LuLa where such statements pass as givens.
    Cheers,
    Jeff
    www.jeff-grant.com

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Whatever! Let's get back to the original question, shall we?:

    All the grousing, semantics and debating aside, I now have the two camera systems in the original title of this thread, (S2P and H4D) and have used them side-by-side for more than a brief period ... and even used them for the same shot. However, redundancy is not the intent of having both kits. They are clearly different animals sharing one attribute ... better IQ than currently available from any 35mm DSLR. In that way, they are brother's-in-arms battling for truth, justice and better IQ.

    Size: this has been hotly debated since the S2 lenses supposedly aren't any smaller ... which BTW isn't true ... except for the standard 70mm lens, they are smaller. Anyone that's packed a camera bag knows this is relative to bulk not just sizes. It is much easier to pack a roller with the S2 and 4 currently available lenses than it is the H4D and four comparable lenses: HC/35mm, 80 or 100mm, 120 macro, and the HC/210 verses the S180 ). When packing the H4D, I simply need a bigger bag. For example, the HC/35 takes a 95mm filter and has a big hood which requires more space, the S35mm is 82mm and has a more compact fitting hood. The HC/120 Macro is much bigger than the S120 macro, and the HC/120 is too tall to stand upright in my Think Tank Airport roller where the S120 does stand upright. Same for the S180 verses the H/C210. The HC/28, 35, and 35-90 are all 95mm filter sizes with big hoods and none of them fit in any lens bag compartment I've used, like those from Think-Tank. The S35mm with hood does fit in my Think-Tank lens bag.

    Versatility: This is obviously relative to use and application intent.

    The modular H4D can be used in more different shooting configurations, like using most sensor units on tech field camera or studio type view camera with full movements, or as a unified unit with the HTS/1.5 adapter, and it offers a waist level finder. The H has useful features like mirror delay to assist in hand-held work. While many have used the HD cameras in bad weather, it isn't an advertised attribute, and as Guy has pointed out, it's a no brainer to secure a cover like everyone has done forever. While I apparently have less dust issues than others, it is a fact of life with MFD.

    On the other hand, the S2 is truly weather sealed and lends itself to inclement weather shooting and has been advertised as such. It is NOT immune to dust ... despite my careful handling, I have had to clean the sensor ... which is much harder to do than with any modular MFD. The jury is still out regarding ever being able to use T/S with the S2 ... my understanding is that the S2 Sensor uses Micro-Lenses (please correct me if I am wrong here). If correct, that raises the specter of color casts, and without proprietary software it would be interesting to see how this would be dealt with even if one could rig a T/S solution.

    Optics: it is my subjective opinion that the S lenses are better than the H/C optics ... or the comparable Contax 645 Zeiss lenses, or the Zeiss V optics I used to use on my H camera via the CF adapter. However, this is relative to sensor size ... the larger sensor H4 units printed to the native S2 size look every bit as sharp and contrasty if not more so. I'd subjectively say that the H4D/40 gets edged out by the S2 due to optics if pixel peeping. Go to the 50 meg or 60 meg H4D and it becomes debate-able based on sheer file size. I'm talking making prints here.

    Focusing: Despite initial reports to the contrary, and some user experiences, I've found the S2 AF to NOW be very accurate, perhaps due to the more recent firmware tweaks. I also think it is faster than the H4D in lower contrast lighting, but not by a huge margin, and dependent on which lenses. The clear advantage of the H4D is True Focus/Absolute Position lock which facilitates off center compositions better than anything from anyone I've used to date. I've found those that may disagree either haven't used it, or are owners that didn't know how to use it. This advantage doesn't manifest itself when shooting stopped down compared to using the center AF point and recomposing, where DOF and distance to subject tends to mask focus shift when recomposing. It DOES make a difference when shooting wide open or close to wide open, especially closer up where DOF is reduced by a big margin. Both the S2 and H4D offer fast aperture lenses, so this is no small matter if one uses these apertures with off-center compositions.

    Software: Obviously, the proprietary Phocus software for the H4D system has its advantages, being highly tuned to the integrated system approach Hasselblad has taken. Here, I also have found most users that complain haven't taken the time to explore and master it. Images processed in LR seem to look good, but pale in comparison to those properly addressed in Phocus. The S2 files are DNGs processed in LR and DO offer the advantage of very comprehensive editing/processing tools and direct links other programs without leaving the LR library. I still question whether the maximum is being extracted from the S2 files in LR ... and feel certain image issues like a tendency toward hot reds/magenta skin cast could be addressed with a proprietary profile for the S2 ... or something along those lines.

    Pricing: Another major bone of contention often brought up in any discussion. IMO, Hasselblad has been fairly competitive relative to the general MFD market, and offers attractive trade in programs or promotions (like the H4D/40 with 35-90 zoom promo from last year, which was one hell of a nice deal given that the lens is $7,200). The S2 doesn't have any trade or promotion deals ... so one has to compare non-promo pricing verses the S2 to get a better idea of price/value. I do NOT think H stuff holds its value used as well as it should. If Leica holds true to past experiences with the M and R gear, it should hold its percentage of price better ... at least for the lenses. Other than that ... it's a Leica ... what else can I say?

    Open for questions or even trying some other comparative exercise if I have time, and it doesn't involve shooting test charts or brick walls

    P.S. Service: based on experiences to date, both companies have been responsive and swift. A good dealer relationship is essential. Warranties: the Leica extended warranty is more expensive than the Hasselblad ones, BUT if you want HOT swap coverage then the gap closes. Hasselblad doesn't offer any extended service warranty for lenses where Leica does ... but I don't know if the lens that comes with a Hassy kit is covered by the over-all extended warranty.

  4. #154
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    "Solution to a non-problem" is a common phrase in the English speaking world ... Google it.

    The H4D attracts more dust than a Phase One 645 DF? Now I've heard it all. Just exactly how could that be? ... other than just saying anything on the internet without reasoning or proof. Maybe it's the magnetic personality of the H4D that does it ...

    -Marc
    First, my reasoning and proof is based on actual use with both cameras. Second, the simple fact that Hasselblad has more points of entry for dust is rudimentary, i.e. the viewfinder...one big point of entry!
    Marc, you and others seem to jump on my comments whenever I mention the H4D, I owned the camera and used it, shot many fantastic published images, but this is a forum about digital photography, and I express my comments from my perspective...like it or not! Also, many of your earlier comments about the S2 were made without reasoning or proof either, but more of concern about reliability. I think it starts with the prices for these cameras, we expect them to perform flawlessly when compared to 35mm. As a studio camera the H4D is amazing, but I don't have several other cameras to choose from. I will in fact, use the camera that for me, fills all the roles, and that right now is a Phase...like it or not!

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    First, my reasoning and proof is based on actual use with both cameras. Second, the simple fact that Hasselblad has more points of entry for dust is rudimentary, i.e. the viewfinder...one big point of entry!
    Marc, you and others seem to jump on my comments whenever I mention the H4D, I owned the camera and used it, shot many fantastic published images, but this is a forum about digital photography, and I express my comments from my perspective...like it or not! Also, many of your earlier comments about the S2 were made without reasoning or proof either, but more of concern about reliability. I think it starts with the prices for these cameras, we expect them to perform flawlessly when compared to 35mm. As a studio camera the H4D is amazing, but I don't have several other cameras to choose from. I will in fact, use the camera that for me, fills all the roles, and that right now is a Phase...like it or not!
    The major error here is that you think I care what you use ... actually I could not care less. Use what you like or feel fits you best. It is actually none of my business.

    However, if my experience differs from yours I'll say so. Like it or not.

    BTW, while I have not used the DF camera, I have used the Mamiya 645AF with a Leaf Aptus back ... and any dust issue was the same even though there is no removeable viewfinder or waist level finder. Most certainly not a reason to go or not go with any of these MFDs ... but I'd rather have the option of using different finders because that fits my needs better.

    -Marc

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    My experience with the H viewfinder was indeed different. Not only did more dust enter via that area, but also the contacts could be compromised, with bumping or jarring. That's not a problem with the waist finder, as there's no info anyway.

    Many photographers only think of their gear as tools and their photos show it, but they're more than just that. Photography is unique in its ability to effect emotion and response. Having a camera that you never want to put down allows the photographer to extend or expand his creative process, and thus learn more, and effect good technique.

    Subtle comments and smiley faces only go so far...

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Excellent write-up Marc, enjoy the weekend.

    Kind regards,
    Derek Jecxz
    www.jecxz.com

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by jecxz View Post
    Excellent write-up Marc, enjoy the weekend.

    Kind regards,
    Derek Jecxz
    www.jecxz.com
    Thanks Derek, glad someone read it

    BTW, your work is terrific! Lots of soul there. That rows of trees shot knocked my socks off!

    -Marc

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    First, my reasoning and proof is based on actual use with both cameras. I owned the camera and used it, shot many fantastic published images,
    Johnny, I am always interested to see the work of forum contributors. Would it be possible to post some of your images or a link to them?
    Cheers,
    Jeff
    www.jeff-grant.com

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Thank you Marc. I've followed your other posts as well and at Nick's forum too. We're lucky you contribute here and there. I know a lot of people value your writings besides me. Enjoy the weekend and be well.

    ;d

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Thanks Derek, glad someone read it

    BTW, your work is terrific! Lots of soul there. That rows of trees shot knocked my socks off!

    -Marc

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by jecxz View Post
    Excellent write-up Marc, enjoy the weekend.

    Kind regards,
    Derek Jecxz
    www.jecxz.com
    +1 Although I'm not in the market for MFD, and will possibly never be, this is really informative stuff, and adds a lot to the general knowledge base here.

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    Senior Member leicashot's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    +1 Although I'm not in the market for MFD, and will possibly never be, this is really informative stuff, and adds a lot to the general knowledge base here.
    +2......Marc is great

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    + 3.

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Yeah, Marc is a really helpful, knowledgable and sensible guy. I always enjoy his posts, so thanks, Marc, for sharing so much.

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by stewpid View Post
    Yeah, Marc is a really helpful, knowledgable and sensible guy. I always enjoy his posts, so thanks, Marc, for sharing so much.
    There are those that raise the level of what we do by educating us and telling us their experiences and opnions (in a thoughtful, intelligent manner). Marc is appreciated.

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by GMB View Post
    + 3.
    Only three?

    Here is four...

    + 4.

    Bob

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    + 5
    Cheers,
    Jeff
    www.jeff-grant.com

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by leicashot View Post
    .....Marc is great
    +6

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    I've been reliably told that one can never have too much of a good thing....so +7

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    What and why people are voting for here? i don't know the story

    +8
    Tareq

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    ok, sunday and sunny... +1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9 from me= +45 ;-)
    rem

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    This has to be about a really hot girl in a bikini. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Senior Member leicashot's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    FINAL RESULT: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    WINNER: Marc Williams

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Let's not go here folks. Respect for all and all that jazz. Not in the spirit of GetDPI
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Let's not go here folks. Respect for all and all that jazz. Not in the spirit of GetDPI
    Agreed.

    All I hope is that if we take the time to write up our impressions based on experience and thoughtful application ... that some may benefit from it at some time in their own trek.

    I've learned so much here myself, that I feel it's only fair to share back. In this case, I may be a rare member that actually has a fairly complete H4D and S2 kit per the original thread title, and have had some time to use them both in various situations ... hopefully a few can benefit from any observations.

    That to me is Get Dpi.

    Thanks to all,

    Marc

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    There are several articulate, even handed contributors here on the forum who take the time to share their thoughts and experiences so that others may learn. This spirit of community is what makes DPI special and that's something that, IMHO, flows from the top down. Credit goes to Jack and Guy for creating and perpetuating this atmosphere.

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Hi Guy,

    I read your comment and at first did not understand the context; then I scrolled up to figure it out and I realized you were probably referring to the negative post about Johnny versus Marc. I understand you, this is a good forum and not the place for that.

    My post above about Marc had nothing to do with Johnny, I genuinely liked Marc's write up and thought it was honest and even. That's why I made my post. I wanted to ignore the other stuff.

    However, as a Hasselblad user, I'm going to point out that Johnny's posts here and in other threads seem to be repetitive remarks that just attack Hasselblad, sometimes inserted in threads seemingly to vent his frustration at Hasselblad - which may very well be real, I do not want to judge his situation at all and I take him at his word. One or two posts is enough, really. We hear you Johnny. I am sorry you had issues.

    What has frustrated so many satsifited Hasselblad users is the constant barage of attacks, many of which we feel are just nonsense (while some are certainly real), in forums that *appear* to be marketing mouths for Phase1 - and Luminous Landscape is a primary example where the vitriol is just terrible. There is some spill over here, just a bit.

    I have had one post of mine deleted because I was slightly aggresive about one of Doug's posts against Hasselblad. That made me feel your forum was in the pocket of Phase1. Doug used to regularly post negative remarks (or pro-Phase1 comments) in Hassy threads and I know from my discussions with Steve that much effort was spent getting him to stop - which he has and that is to his credit!

    I don't know how you solve the problems of Johnny, he's obviously extremely angry at Hasselblad and takes every opportunity to jab them. But you made the point of commenting on the comparison of Marc versu Johnny, so I hope you understand that maybe that's where it was coming from--maybe not too. And if it wasn't, perhaps you can take what I've said here and make some use of it. I have not posted this is any negative way against you or GetDpi.

    EDIT: Guy, I suspect that if I knocked Phase1 in every third post in threads, it would be pretty quick, as demonstrated by the immediate deletion of one of my posts a while ago, that you'd dump them rather fast. Well, the same is happening, just with Hasselblad, no one who is satisfied with their investment likes to hear repetative non-constructive rants and vents.

    Kind regards,
    Derek Jecxz
    http://www.jecxz.com
    http://www.facebook.com/derek.jecxz.photographer

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Let's not go here folks. Respect for all and all that jazz. Not in the spirit of GetDPI
    Last edited by jecxz; 17th April 2011 at 10:34.

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Stephen, I did not mean to single your post out, sorry if I have offended you.

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    At the risk of going too far (again?), when I commented on the thumbs up "voting," I wasn't criticizing Johnny, but was questioning whether the thumbs up posts were adding anything to this thread. If Johnny has biases which affect his posts, he's certainly not alone.

  29. #179
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Thanks everything is fine and all that and comments made are as well. The secret is this as a long time forums kind of guy and many know me for many years on forums is I can smell problems a mile away and many times I will just put my friendly reminder in and things go back on track. We believe as owners staying ahead and on top of things keeps this one of the friendly forums. We all like that and we all try as mods. To keep the positive flow going. Also as well **** happens and totally understand Johnnys issues as well. We as members also need to understand frustration as well and make certain adjustments. Sometimes these issues get under our skin. It happens to all if us at one point with any gear you own. Anyway carry on did not mean to step on anyone's toes here.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Have you ever considered running for President?

    Enjoy the rest of the weekend!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thanks everything is fine and all that and comments made are as well. The secret is this as a long time forums kind of guy and many know me for many years on forums is I can smell problems a mile away and many times I will just put my friendly reminder in and things go back on track. We believe as owners staying ahead and on top of things keeps this one of the friendly forums. We all like that and we all try as mods. To keep the positive flow going. Also as well **** happens and totally understand Johnnys issues as well. We as members also need to understand frustration as well and make certain adjustments. Sometimes these issues get under our skin. It happens to all if us at one point with any gear you own. Anyway carry on did not mean to step on anyone's toes here.

  31. #181
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Hi Derek,
    You're right about my posts against Hasselblad, and perhaps I have taken it too far. It was a big step for me to transition to MFD, and the anticipation was extraordinary. I mentioned before that my camera issues were probably isolated and not indicative of Hasselblad, and obviously, I was right, as many of you have had great results and are very satisfied. That's a good thing for MFD and an industry as a whole. Ultimately, I lost money and had my passion derailed somewhat. I know I took a few cheap shots and my apologies to all who I've offended, but that's how I felt. By sharing experiences with others might isolate potential manufacture defects if a pattern is apparent.

    I guess as I was on my rants, I realized I'm the only one standing on this side and it felt kinda lonely...I admire the passion that all have expressed, and will officially move on. Wait, one more, AAHHHHGGAAAHHHH!!!, okay, now it's official. Thanks to all.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 17th April 2011 at 14:29.

  32. #182
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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by leicashot View Post
    FINAL RESULT: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    WINNER: Marc Williams
    I'm not posting comments for a popularity contest, only from user experience from owning the Hasselblad H3D and H4D, but if you or Marc start experiencing similar issues, i'd be curious to see how you'd react if you kept having weeks of downtime and no camera. If a photographer doesn't have several MFD to choose from, then the frustration mounts and loyalty wanes. I shoot a lot of travel/destination and environmental portraits, so rental backups aren't always an option either. I'm sure you'll enjoy your Hasselblad and take many memorable photographs. The key word is "user" forum, so try not to judge just because you or others don't like the tone.

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Thanks Johnny. It took a lot of moral strength to make that post. Those of us who love our Hasselblad systems take offense at being portrayed as a little gullible or, shall I say "stupid", for choosing Hasselblad. Having said that, I hope my system doesn't fall apart now! Without outlining every strength regarding the Hasselblad system, just let me say that it works and works very well. To each his own...Live and let live; and every other cliche that comes to mind. I really don't have time to worry about trivia (i.e. silly arguments).

    Greg

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    Senior Member leicashot's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    I'm not posting comments for a popularity contest, only from user experience from owning the Hasselblad H3D and H4D, but if you or Marc start experiencing similar issues, i'd be curious to see how you'd react if you kept having weeks of downtime and no camera. If a photographer doesn't have several MFD to choose from, then the frustration mounts and loyalty wanes. I shoot a lot of travel/destination and environmental portraits, so rental backups aren't always an option either. I'm sure you'll enjoy your Hasselblad and take many memorable photographs. The key word is "user" forum, so try not to judge just because you or others don't like the tone.
    I'm a little confused. Was there something wrong with my last post?

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    No apology necessary, your frustration is understandable. I hope you are happy with your new equipment (Phase1, correct?) and you should continue to share your experiences. Don't feel alone, you are not. Be well.

    Kind regards,
    Derek Jecxz
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Hi Derek,
    You're right about my posts against Hasselblad, and perhaps I have taken it too far. It was a big step for me to transition to MFD, and the anticipation was extraordinary. I mentioned before that my camera issues were probably isolated and not indicative of Hasselblad, and obviously, I was right, as many of you have had great results and are very satisfied. That's a good thing for MFD and an industry as a whole. Ultimately, I lost money and had my passion derailed somewhat. I know I took a few cheap shots and my apologies to all who I've offended, but that's how I felt. By sharing experiences with others might isolate potential manufacture defects if a pattern is apparent.

    I guess as I was on my rants, I realized I'm the only one standing on this side and it felt kinda lonely...I admire the passion that all have expressed, and will officially move on. Wait, one more, AAHHHHGGAAAHHHH!!!, okay, now it's official. Thanks to all.

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by jecxz View Post
    Have you ever considered running for President?

    Enjoy the rest of the weekend!
    My Birth Certificate might come into question

    Inside joke for Jack. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    If there is any lesson here it is that MFD takes knowledge, patience and time. Every single system made has potential issues from either the gear and/or the user ... and as Guy has mentioned more than once, there is usually some solution or work-around for it ... if not immediately, eventually. The other cardinal rule is "look before you leap".

    If I had not exercised patience with my S2 venture, I would not be shooting with a S2 now. The first one had a cracked sensor cover, and the second one failed due to a shutter release fault. I suppose I could have then favored something else in my frustration and dashed expectations, and ranted endlessly every time a satisfied user mentioned a S2 ... or worked with the rep and company to resolve the issues.

    In the end, even if the S2 was perfect out of the box and had not meet my high expectations, then that would have been my fault for not doing my homework and insisting on a test drive ... which any of these makers will provide (I did two with the S2). This is a great forum for information, as are the dealers or companies, but none of that replaces actually using the gear yourself. For example, even though I am pretty experienced with the H system after 8 prior cameras, I insisted on a test day with the H4D/60 upgrade before committing.

    Personally, I much prefer just reporting experiences as some sort of indicator for others to consider ... nothing is gospel from anyone ... it's just friendly sharing. Otherwise, what's the point?

    Be well, shoot well,

    -Marc

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    And sometimes when i come here to read experiences, i feel i can't learn anything because everyone trying to make decisions on his impressions, so i can't tell which experience i have to follow as a guide, and also not a failed experience of someone means it will be failed with me or someone else too, but what i really don't like is when people trying to make their tools/gear as it is the ultimate and the best over others gear, i know someone who told me that my Hasselblad will serve me on one field and i have to replace it or look at another MFD for something else, and he is experienced and know the gear very well, so should i follow him or just use what i have and later i worry if it will work or not?!!!
    Tareq

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    If i may go back here for a second on the dust issue. Not sure if Hassy is any worse or any better than anything else in this area . The rubber band thing did make me scratch my head thinking. LOL

    Anyway lets face it with any system Pentax, Leica, Hassy, Phase and Sinar bodies the biggest single factor is big hole in front of big sensor. Dust will get in just like water will eventually seep into something. Now obviously the back solution it is easier for cleaning and honestly switching out my back to a Alpa/Arca type cam in the field sometimes can be a dust bowl. No back here is going to avoid that. The one thing that maybe could make a difference is the type of glass used . Maybe some has more static. Guessing here but regardless dust will get in.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    If there is any lesson here it is that MFD takes knowledge, patience and time. Every single system made has potential issues from either the gear and/or the user ... and as Guy has mentioned more than once, there is usually some solution or work-around for it ... if not immediately, eventually. The other cardinal rule is "look before you leap".

    If I had not exercised patience with my S2 venture, I would not be shooting with a S2 now. The first one had a cracked sensor cover, and the second one failed due to a shutter release fault. I suppose I could have then favored something else in my frustration and dashed expectations, and ranted endlessly every time a satisfied user mentioned a S2 ... or worked with the rep and company to resolve the issues.

    In the end, even if the S2 was perfect out of the box and had not meet my high expectations, then that would have been my fault for not doing my homework and insisting on a test drive ... which any of these makers will provide (I did two with the S2). This is a great forum for information, as are the dealers or companies, but none of that replaces actually using the gear yourself. For example, even though I am pretty experienced with the H system after 8 prior cameras, I insisted on a test day with the H4D/60 upgrade before committing.

    Personally, I much prefer just reporting experiences as some sort of indicator for others to consider ... nothing is gospel from anyone ... it's just friendly sharing. Otherwise, what's the point?

    Be well, shoot well,

    -Marc
    Marc you were a big part of the reason I participated in the old photo.net Leica forum, and the reason I'm here on GetDPI, but now I'm a new fish learning the ropes of MFD. Your eloquent way of putting things is truly valued and information put to good use.

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    If i may go back here for a second on the dust issue. Not sure if Hassy is any worse or any better than anything else in this area . The rubber band thing did make me scratch my head thinking. LOL

    Anyway lets face it with any system Pentax, Leica, Hassy, Phase and Sinar bodies the biggest single factor is big hole in front of big sensor. Dust will get in just like water will eventually seep into something. Now obviously the back solution it is easier for cleaning and honestly switching out my back to a Alpa/Arca type cam in the field sometimes can be a dust bowl. No back here is going to avoid that. The one thing that maybe could make a difference is the type of glass used . Maybe some has more static. Guessing here but regardless dust will get in.
    Guy, excellent points. I always ground myself before cleaning or removing gear. Just walking across the carpet can generate enough electricity to zap your cameras delicate electronics. Discharge the static and turn off the camera/DB prior to cleaning.

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by Professional View Post
    And sometimes when i come here to read experiences, i feel i can't learn anything because everyone trying to make decisions on his impressions, so i can't tell which experience i have to follow as a guide, and also not a failed experience of someone means it will be failed with me or someone else too, but what i really don't like is when people trying to make their tools/gear as it is the ultimate and the best over others gear, i know someone who told me that my Hasselblad will serve me on one field and i have to replace it or look at another MFD for something else, and he is experienced and know the gear very well, so should i follow him or just use what i have and later i worry if it will work or not?!!!
    In cases like this it has to be very specific information. Most any of these modular MFD systems can do most anything that the other can ... with some systems it is harder to do certain things than with others, where the other may be better/easier at something else ... the important thing is to have a pretty good grasp on what your expectations are going in ... not after the fact.

    I'm not sure I've seen or heard anyone here on Get DPI say their kit was better at everything than something else. It is better for them, not everyone. As far as credibility, I simply follow the same method as I do when reading any statement in literature, art or photography ... who's doing the talking? What's their work look like? Does that work bear any relationship to the type of photography I do, or want to do? For example, someone like Marco Grob bears more relationship to my inclinations than any landscape photographer no matter how great/famous they may be. Landscapes are not my area of interest ... even though I could do them with the gear I have, I didn't select based on that criteria.

    I do think a majority of trouble and frustration crops up when someone hasn't yet defined a personal direction in photography and jumps into one of these relatively specialized and very expensive MFD systems. Someone buying a Pentax 645D, or a S2 at the other end of the price spectrum, will be very disappointed if they changed course and wanted to shoot with a technical field camera like an ALPA. So, they end up having to buy something else to fulfill their new found interest.

    -Marc

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    In cases like this it has to be very specific information. Most any of these modular MFD systems can do most anything that the other can ... with some systems it is harder to do certain things than with others, where the other may be better/easier at something else ... the important thing is to have a pretty good grasp on what your expectations are going in ... not after the fact.

    I'm not sure I've seen or heard anyone here on Get DPI say their kit was better at everything than something else. It is better for them, not everyone. As far as credibility, I simply follow the same method as I do when reading any statement in literature, art or photography ... who's doing the talking? What's their work look like? Does that work bear any relationship to the type of photography I do, or want to do? For example, someone like Marco Grob bears more relationship to my inclinations than any landscape photographer no matter how great/famous they may be. Landscapes are not my area of interest ... even though I could do them with the gear I have, I didn't select based on that criteria.

    I do think a majority of trouble and frustration crops up when someone hasn't yet defined a personal direction in photography and jumps into one of these relatively specialized and very expensive MFD systems. Someone buying a Pentax 645D, or a S2 at the other end of the price spectrum, will be very disappointed if they changed course and wanted to shoot with a technical field camera like an ALPA. So, they end up having to buy something else to fulfill their new found interest.

    -Marc
    Correct, and honestly speaking, i think i will waste time and money because i am just a hobbyist and don't earn money at all as many here do, and i shoot many things [will not say everything], so this will lead me to get or need more than one system or MFD, my main photography is landscape and outdoors, this including architecture, but i bought H3DII39 and replaced or traded in with H4D-60, from what i see and hear, i think Tech camera is the best architecture, even that person told me it will be better for landscape over my H series, so i use my H4D-60 for portraits and studio, i do shoot landscape and outdoor with it, but i think it is not the best tool for it even if i can shoot with it, now if i have to replace it for Tech camera and DB then i will be not comfortable to use it for portraits and studio or even portraits outdoors or indoors[non studio], then i will look back for Hasselblad or Pentax or similar SLR-like system, at the end it seems most of you choosing one type or so of photography and focusing on it rather than doing different styles and types, so means one system right will the job for you.

    And another honest speaking, if i got all MFD systems in the market, i will be happy with all of them, i will be happy to use H4D and S2 for portraits and will never say that one is better over the other, so my point is not which system is to get, but the point is how many MFD system to get if i want to do many different applications like landscapes and portraits and sports and and and?!!!!!!
    Tareq

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by Professional View Post
    Correct, and honestly speaking, i think i will waste time and money because i am just a hobbyist and don't earn money at all as many here do, and i shoot many things [will not say everything], so this will lead me to get or need more than one system or MFD, my main photography is landscape and outdoors, this including architecture, but i bought H3DII39 and replaced or traded in with H4D-60, from what i see and hear, i think Tech camera is the best architecture, even that person told me it will be better for landscape over my H series, so i use my H4D-60 for portraits and studio, i do shoot landscape and outdoor with it, but i think it is not the best tool for it even if i can shoot with it, now if i have to replace it for Tech camera and DB then i will be not comfortable to use it for portraits and studio or even portraits outdoors or indoors[non studio], then i will look back for Hasselblad or Pentax or similar SLR-like system, at the end it seems most of you choosing one type or so of photography and focusing on it rather than doing different styles and types, so means one system right will the job for you.

    And another honest speaking, if i got all MFD systems in the market, i will be happy with all of them, i will be happy to use H4D and S2 for portraits and will never say that one is better over the other, so my point is not which system is to get, but the point is how many MFD system to get if i want to do many different applications like landscapes and portraits and sports and and and?!!!!!!
    This is the kind of specific info that leads to more a specific dialog. In the case of a generalists type photographer who is interested in many different types of photography like you are, then I personally would not recommend something like a S2 or Pentax 645D, nor any of the modular MFD systems with a DB that creates issues when using tech camera movements.

    The addition of a tech field camera like the ALPA is a popular choice among modular MFD system generalists users, and really doesn't represent a mistake in choosing which DSLR type camera system, (unless you select the wrong type back). All it does is make the modular systems more versatile by giving you more options to accomplish your different end photos.

    In a perfect world, with unlimited funds, I'd like a S2 for general shooting with MFD IQ over a 35mm DSLR, while understanding the limitations ... the H4D/60 so I can choose any focal length to shoot outdoor environmental portraits with strobes, or to do certain work in studio, requiring 1/800th HSS with any of the 11 focal lengths in the HC system, and I am partial to the H4D focus innovations for the way I tend to shoot off-center compositions while using wider apertures, plus I like the option of a waist-level finder for a different perspective ... and IF I worked a lot with a tech camera/ALPA, a Phase One IQ 80 meg back because the current lenses on a tech camera are up to it, and the innovations for helping focus the darned thing are unique and wonderful. Even then, should I be more interested in long exposure work at night, I'd revert back to the P45 DB over the IQ line. So, even if one were able to have it all, there are still major informed decisions to be made.

    However, it is pretty rare that anyone can afford all of the above or even want to invest that much in ultimate diversity, so we have to make compromises somewhere. For me it was just adding the little HTS/1.5 for limited PC control knowing that the IQ is not the equal of a true Tech camera with HD lenses from Schneider or Rodenstock ... but it works for my limited need field applications, and I have a full blown Xact2 with HD lenses for critical work in studio with the H4D/60 DB.

    Were I you, I'd wait a bit to see what the forthcoming independent battery solution for the H4D/60 looks like which may make using the back on a tech field camera work better/easier than current solutions.

    Marc

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    This is the kind of specific info that leads to more a specific dialog. In the case of a generalists type photographer who is interested in many different types of photography like you are, then I personally would not recommend something like a S2 or Pentax 645D, nor any of the modular MFD systems with a DB that creates issues when using tech camera movements.

    The addition of a tech field camera like the ALPA is a popular choice among modular MFD system generalists users, and really doesn't represent a mistake in choosing which DSLR type camera system, (unless you select the wrong type back). All it does is make the modular systems more versatile by giving you more options to accomplish your different end photos.

    In a perfect world, with unlimited funds, I'd like a S2 for general shooting with MFD IQ over a 35mm DSLR, while understanding the limitations ... the H4D/60 so I can choose any focal length to shoot outdoor environmental portraits with strobes, or to do certain work in studio, requiring 1/800th HSS with any of the 11 focal lengths in the HC system, and I am partial to the H4D focus innovations for the way I tend to shoot off-center compositions while using wider apertures, plus I like the option of a waist-level finder for a different perspective ... and IF I worked a lot with a tech camera/ALPA, a Phase One IQ 80 meg back because the current lenses on a tech camera are up to it, and the innovations for helping focus the darned thing are unique and wonderful. Even then, should I be more interested in long exposure work at night, I'd revert back to the P45 DB over the IQ line. So, even if one were able to have it all, there are still major informed decisions to be made.

    However, it is pretty rare that anyone can afford all of the above or even want to invest that much in ultimate diversity, so we have to make compromises somewhere. For me it was just adding the little HTS/1.5 for limited PC control knowing that the IQ is not the equal of a true Tech camera with HD lenses from Schneider or Rodenstock ... but it works for my limited need field applications, and I have a full blown Xact2 with HD lenses for critical work in studio with the H4D/60 DB.

    Were I you, I'd wait a bit to see what the forthcoming independent battery solution for the H4D/60 looks like which may make using the back on a tech field camera work better/easier than current solutions.

    Marc
    Ofcourse i will wait, i may afford that HTS in the future but the review of it making me to think getting a Tech camera and using my H60is better than using HTS, but i will wait a bit longer, who knows what will be there, and someone here [you know who i am talking about] posted shots from his Hasselblad 60mp on an Alpa camera, so if he did that it means it can be done, even he faces some problems with power or something else at least he did it, so i can save bucks to use my H4D60 back on a tech camera if i get one more than buying another DB of Phase One or Leaf which is almost equal or more than my H4D-60, i am not looking for getting rid of my H4D-60 yet, but if i will have a tech camera sooner or later then that means i must have a DB, so if my H4D-60 is not compatible or not possible, how can i get another DB with no money left? Lucky who have even another MF even same model as backup, i can't have even MFD as backup.

    So for what i should use my H4D-60 for its best job? What i need/add to give it more advantage usage and performance?
    Tareq

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    there is a side of me that wants to say: get simple, minimize your variables and gear and focus on the craft before you start to get so many cameras, backs, lenses, etc.

    there is plenty to work on with post-processing and printing skills, for example, that will cross over to any platform you choose.

    With the H4D60 you have an amazing camera, possibly one of the very best DSLR ever made. Get the most out of that before adding the craziness of a tech camera

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by Professional View Post
    Ofcourse i will wait, i may afford that HTS in the future but the review of it making me to think getting a Tech camera and using my H60is better than using HTS, but i will wait a bit longer, who knows what will be there, and someone here [you know who i am talking about] posted shots from his Hasselblad 60mp on an Alpa camera, so if he did that it means it can be done, even he faces some problems with power or something else at least he did it, so i can save bucks to use my H4D60 back on a tech camera if i get one more than buying another DB of Phase One or Leaf which is almost equal or more than my H4D-60, i am not looking for getting rid of my H4D-60 yet, but if i will have a tech camera sooner or later then that means i must have a DB, so if my H4D-60 is not compatible or not possible, how can i get another DB with no money left? Lucky who have even another MF even same model as backup, i can't have even MFD as backup.

    So for what i should use my H4D-60 for its best job? What i need/add to give it more advantage usage and performance?
    Honestly, it sounds like you picked up you H4D-60 at a local 7 Eleven and don't even know what it is....why did you buy it in the first place?

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    I am not giving up my camera, and also i was not knowledgable enough about tech cameras that time, i bought H3D before i know much about tech cameras, and i replaces that H3D to H4D because i got an offer, it is a great camera for what it should be used [portraits, studio,...], i will not give up or i will not say it is a bad camera, but here seeing people posting landscapes and architecture photos from tech cameras making to think that i should get that gear instead of H4D, but now i can't sale or replace my H4D, so the only option is buy a tech camera in the future, until that time i have to read more and use my H4D more, and i am not willing to spend more to buy HTS and then i have to sell it later, until now i am happy with H4D and i should not complain that it is not the best tool for architecture maybe, but i have to be ready later in the future when i get one, and nowadays those halos about those Phase One IQ backs making me to feel that H4 bodies are dying into darkness.
    Don't take it as i am frustrated with H4D or i want to through it very soon, just as it is with my Canon DSLR, i don't use one body for everything even it can be done.
    Tareq

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    You really couldn't make this stuff up.

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    Re: Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    You really couldn't make this stuff up.
    I thought that my own post purchase evaluation/justification was a challenging process

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