That was back in January Woody. (See date on post). I'm well past all that, read the manual, saw all the videos, and figured out my best configuration months ago. All up to speed so to speak.
Thanks anyway :thumbup:
-Marc
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Leica S2 vs Hasselblad H4D
- Thread starter johnnygoesdigital
- Start date
- Status
Thanks anyway :thumbup:
-Marc
woodyspedden
New member
You are really fortunate Marc (and your photography deserves it!).
I am first on my dealer's list so have great hopes for the 120Macro as soon as Leica starts to deliver them to the USA again. The other three lenses were not bad though the 35 took a little time as I was in the front of the S2 adopters and all the lenses were slow to get back then. I understand the 120 is very similar to the 180 and I love the 180 so am looking forward to having that look at the smaller FL and having Macro as well.
Keep sending us those images. You are one terrific photographer
Woody
David Schneider
New member
Small rant: Hasselblad makes world class cameras. But adding a rubber band to keep out the dust in addition to the plastic electric cable strap I have that holds the eye piece on, camera is going to start looking pretty ghetto. Come on, Hasselblad.... it's not like I'm asking for 3,000ISO or 2 frames per second.
Back to your regular programing.....
johnnygoesdigital
New member
That was one of my earliest complaints with Hasselblad. Its design is based on a decades old platform and the charge of the sensor just pulls dust in! A rubber band...really?
Rubber Band? A solution to a non-problem as far as I'm concerned ... but I base that on actual use and lots of it, not "marketing" theory.
Never had much call to remove the H back in conditions where dust was an issue. I change lenses with the body pointed downward so gravity is my friend, and make sure there isn't any dust on the rear of the lens. Pretty basic stuff actually.
Have shot MANY outdoors location jobs from beaches to blizzards, etc. ... I've even been caught in a roaring monsoon downpour with gale force winds and no shelter anywhere or anything to cover the camera ... to no effect what-so-ever ... wiped down the camera and finished the remaining 4 hours of the shoot indoors. Have also shot in sub zero conditions an 115º temps.
Much to do about nothing except maybe to justify some buying urge by bunny rabbit hopping from one system to the next ... the manufactures just love that kind of seeker of the Holy Grail
-Marc
Never had much call to remove the H back in conditions where dust was an issue. I change lenses with the body pointed downward so gravity is my friend, and make sure there isn't any dust on the rear of the lens. Pretty basic stuff actually.
Have shot MANY outdoors location jobs from beaches to blizzards, etc. ... I've even been caught in a roaring monsoon downpour with gale force winds and no shelter anywhere or anything to cover the camera ... to no effect what-so-ever ... wiped down the camera and finished the remaining 4 hours of the shoot indoors. Have also shot in sub zero conditions an 115º temps.
Much to do about nothing except maybe to justify some buying urge by bunny rabbit hopping from one system to the next ... the manufactures just love that kind of seeker of the Holy Grail
-Marc
David Schneider
New member
My experience is dramatically more limited than Marc's, but I can say my H3D2-39 seems to attract dust spots faster than any digital camera I've owned, starting in 1998 or 1999. It's not a big deal, just a blast from the Giotto Rocket seems to be all that's needed, but it's needed regularly, and I do the gravity thing and all that.
(Apologies for moving thread off course.)
(Apologies for moving thread off course.)
Try running an anti-static brush over it David. I use soft camel hair one that was made for films (speaking about attracting dust!). Can't recall if this is your first MFD kit ... but all the MFDs I've ever used had this tendency ... frankly, I've had almost as much dust in the 35mm cameras even with anti-dust shaking (probably because I change lenses more frequently than with MFD ... shows up more, and they are a hell of a lot harder to clean.
-Marc
David Schneider
New member
Marc,
Camel brush worth a try. I'll get one.
I've had noticeably less dust spots with Canon 5dMK2 with anti-dust shake than the 5d.
(I wonder if you could walk me through something on H3d2-39 on the phone sometime. Will take no more than 2 minutes tops. I've got something set wrong for flash. I'll pm you tomorrow.)
Camel brush worth a try. I'll get one.
I've had noticeably less dust spots with Canon 5dMK2 with anti-dust shake than the 5d.
(I wonder if you could walk me through something on H3d2-39 on the phone sometime. Will take no more than 2 minutes tops. I've got something set wrong for flash. I'll pm you tomorrow.)
Anytime David.
johnnygoesdigital
New member
Solution to a non problem? That is, by definition an oxymoron. Honestly, the Phase One 645 DF does not attract as much dust, period and does not require a rubber band. When using a brush, make sure you discharge the dust from the previous cleaning otherwise you'll drag it over the sensor...again. Get a brush such as the BRUSHOFF, by Photographic Solutions, it's the best on the market for using a brush on the sensor
"Solution to a non-problem" is a common phrase in the English speaking world ... Google it.
The H4D attracts more dust than a Phase One 645 DF? Now I've heard it all. Just exactly how could that be? ... other than just saying anything on the internet without reasoning or proof. Maybe it's the magnetic personality of the H4D that does it ... :ROTFL:
-Marc
Whatever! Let's get back to the original question, shall we?:
All the grousing, semantics and debating aside, I now have the two camera systems in the original title of this thread, (S2P and H4D) and have used them side-by-side for more than a brief period ... and even used them for the same shot. However, redundancy is not the intent of having both kits. They are clearly different animals sharing one attribute ... better IQ than currently available from any 35mm DSLR. In that way, they are brother's-in-arms battling for truth, justice and better IQ. :ROTFL:
Size: this has been hotly debated since the S2 lenses supposedly aren't any smaller ... which BTW isn't true ... except for the standard 70mm lens, they are smaller. Anyone that's packed a camera bag knows this is relative to bulk not just sizes. It is much easier to pack a roller with the S2 and 4 currently available lenses than it is the H4D and four comparable lenses: HC/35mm, 80 or 100mm, 120 macro, and the HC/210 verses the S180 ). When packing the H4D, I simply need a bigger bag. For example, the HC/35 takes a 95mm filter and has a big hood which requires more space, the S35mm is 82mm and has a more compact fitting hood. The HC/120 Macro is much bigger than the S120 macro, and the HC/120 is too tall to stand upright in my Think Tank Airport roller where the S120 does stand upright. Same for the S180 verses the H/C210. The HC/28, 35, and 35-90 are all 95mm filter sizes with big hoods and none of them fit in any lens bag compartment I've used, like those from Think-Tank. The S35mm with hood does fit in my Think-Tank lens bag.
Versatility: This is obviously relative to use and application intent.
The modular H4D can be used in more different shooting configurations, like using most sensor units on tech field camera or studio type view camera with full movements, or as a unified unit with the HTS/1.5 adapter, and it offers a waist level finder. The H has useful features like mirror delay to assist in hand-held work. While many have used the HD cameras in bad weather, it isn't an advertised attribute, and as Guy has pointed out, it's a no brainer to secure a cover like everyone has done forever. While I apparently have less dust issues than others, it is a fact of life with MFD.
On the other hand, the S2 is truly weather sealed and lends itself to inclement weather shooting and has been advertised as such. It is NOT immune to dust ... despite my careful handling, I have had to clean the sensor ... which is much harder to do than with any modular MFD. The jury is still out regarding ever being able to use T/S with the S2 ... my understanding is that the S2 Sensor uses Micro-Lenses (please correct me if I am wrong here). If correct, that raises the specter of color casts, and without proprietary software it would be interesting to see how this would be dealt with even if one could rig a T/S solution.
Optics: it is my subjective opinion that the S lenses are better than the H/C optics ... or the comparable Contax 645 Zeiss lenses, or the Zeiss V optics I used to use on my H camera via the CF adapter. However, this is relative to sensor size ... the larger sensor H4 units printed to the native S2 size look every bit as sharp and contrasty if not more so. I'd subjectively say that the H4D/40 gets edged out by the S2 due to optics if pixel peeping. Go to the 50 meg or 60 meg H4D and it becomes debate-able based on sheer file size. I'm talking making prints here.
Focusing: Despite initial reports to the contrary, and some user experiences, I've found the S2 AF to NOW be very accurate, perhaps due to the more recent firmware tweaks. I also think it is faster than the H4D in lower contrast lighting, but not by a huge margin, and dependent on which lenses. The clear advantage of the H4D is True Focus/Absolute Position lock which facilitates off center compositions better than anything from anyone I've used to date. I've found those that may disagree either haven't used it, or are owners that didn't know how to use it. This advantage doesn't manifest itself when shooting stopped down compared to using the center AF point and recomposing, where DOF and distance to subject tends to mask focus shift when recomposing. It DOES make a difference when shooting wide open or close to wide open, especially closer up where DOF is reduced by a big margin. Both the S2 and H4D offer fast aperture lenses, so this is no small matter if one uses these apertures with off-center compositions.
Software: Obviously, the proprietary Phocus software for the H4D system has its advantages, being highly tuned to the integrated system approach Hasselblad has taken. Here, I also have found most users that complain haven't taken the time to explore and master it. Images processed in LR seem to look good, but pale in comparison to those properly addressed in Phocus. The S2 files are DNGs processed in LR and DO offer the advantage of very comprehensive editing/processing tools and direct links other programs without leaving the LR library. I still question whether the maximum is being extracted from the S2 files in LR ... and feel certain image issues like a tendency toward hot reds/magenta skin cast could be addressed with a proprietary profile for the S2 ... or something along those lines.
Pricing: Another major bone of contention often brought up in any discussion. IMO, Hasselblad has been fairly competitive relative to the general MFD market, and offers attractive trade in programs or promotions (like the H4D/40 with 35-90 zoom promo from last year, which was one hell of a nice deal given that the lens is $7,200). The S2 doesn't have any trade or promotion deals ... so one has to compare non-promo pricing verses the S2 to get a better idea of price/value. I do NOT think H stuff holds its value used as well as it should. If Leica holds true to past experiences with the M and R gear, it should hold its percentage of price better ... at least for the lenses. Other than that ... it's a Leica ... what else can I say?
Open for questions or even trying some other comparative exercise if I have time, and it doesn't involve shooting test charts or brick walls
P.S. Service: based on experiences to date, both companies have been responsive and swift. A good dealer relationship is essential. Warranties: the Leica extended warranty is more expensive than the Hasselblad ones, BUT if you want HOT swap coverage then the gap closes. Hasselblad doesn't offer any extended service warranty for lenses where Leica does ... but I don't know if the lens that comes with a Hassy kit is covered by the over-all extended warranty.
All the grousing, semantics and debating aside, I now have the two camera systems in the original title of this thread, (S2P and H4D) and have used them side-by-side for more than a brief period ... and even used them for the same shot. However, redundancy is not the intent of having both kits. They are clearly different animals sharing one attribute ... better IQ than currently available from any 35mm DSLR. In that way, they are brother's-in-arms battling for truth, justice and better IQ. :ROTFL:
Size: this has been hotly debated since the S2 lenses supposedly aren't any smaller ... which BTW isn't true ... except for the standard 70mm lens, they are smaller. Anyone that's packed a camera bag knows this is relative to bulk not just sizes. It is much easier to pack a roller with the S2 and 4 currently available lenses than it is the H4D and four comparable lenses: HC/35mm, 80 or 100mm, 120 macro, and the HC/210 verses the S180 ). When packing the H4D, I simply need a bigger bag. For example, the HC/35 takes a 95mm filter and has a big hood which requires more space, the S35mm is 82mm and has a more compact fitting hood. The HC/120 Macro is much bigger than the S120 macro, and the HC/120 is too tall to stand upright in my Think Tank Airport roller where the S120 does stand upright. Same for the S180 verses the H/C210. The HC/28, 35, and 35-90 are all 95mm filter sizes with big hoods and none of them fit in any lens bag compartment I've used, like those from Think-Tank. The S35mm with hood does fit in my Think-Tank lens bag.
Versatility: This is obviously relative to use and application intent.
The modular H4D can be used in more different shooting configurations, like using most sensor units on tech field camera or studio type view camera with full movements, or as a unified unit with the HTS/1.5 adapter, and it offers a waist level finder. The H has useful features like mirror delay to assist in hand-held work. While many have used the HD cameras in bad weather, it isn't an advertised attribute, and as Guy has pointed out, it's a no brainer to secure a cover like everyone has done forever. While I apparently have less dust issues than others, it is a fact of life with MFD.
On the other hand, the S2 is truly weather sealed and lends itself to inclement weather shooting and has been advertised as such. It is NOT immune to dust ... despite my careful handling, I have had to clean the sensor ... which is much harder to do than with any modular MFD. The jury is still out regarding ever being able to use T/S with the S2 ... my understanding is that the S2 Sensor uses Micro-Lenses (please correct me if I am wrong here). If correct, that raises the specter of color casts, and without proprietary software it would be interesting to see how this would be dealt with even if one could rig a T/S solution.
Optics: it is my subjective opinion that the S lenses are better than the H/C optics ... or the comparable Contax 645 Zeiss lenses, or the Zeiss V optics I used to use on my H camera via the CF adapter. However, this is relative to sensor size ... the larger sensor H4 units printed to the native S2 size look every bit as sharp and contrasty if not more so. I'd subjectively say that the H4D/40 gets edged out by the S2 due to optics if pixel peeping. Go to the 50 meg or 60 meg H4D and it becomes debate-able based on sheer file size. I'm talking making prints here.
Focusing: Despite initial reports to the contrary, and some user experiences, I've found the S2 AF to NOW be very accurate, perhaps due to the more recent firmware tweaks. I also think it is faster than the H4D in lower contrast lighting, but not by a huge margin, and dependent on which lenses. The clear advantage of the H4D is True Focus/Absolute Position lock which facilitates off center compositions better than anything from anyone I've used to date. I've found those that may disagree either haven't used it, or are owners that didn't know how to use it. This advantage doesn't manifest itself when shooting stopped down compared to using the center AF point and recomposing, where DOF and distance to subject tends to mask focus shift when recomposing. It DOES make a difference when shooting wide open or close to wide open, especially closer up where DOF is reduced by a big margin. Both the S2 and H4D offer fast aperture lenses, so this is no small matter if one uses these apertures with off-center compositions.
Software: Obviously, the proprietary Phocus software for the H4D system has its advantages, being highly tuned to the integrated system approach Hasselblad has taken. Here, I also have found most users that complain haven't taken the time to explore and master it. Images processed in LR seem to look good, but pale in comparison to those properly addressed in Phocus. The S2 files are DNGs processed in LR and DO offer the advantage of very comprehensive editing/processing tools and direct links other programs without leaving the LR library. I still question whether the maximum is being extracted from the S2 files in LR ... and feel certain image issues like a tendency toward hot reds/magenta skin cast could be addressed with a proprietary profile for the S2 ... or something along those lines.
Pricing: Another major bone of contention often brought up in any discussion. IMO, Hasselblad has been fairly competitive relative to the general MFD market, and offers attractive trade in programs or promotions (like the H4D/40 with 35-90 zoom promo from last year, which was one hell of a nice deal given that the lens is $7,200). The S2 doesn't have any trade or promotion deals ... so one has to compare non-promo pricing verses the S2 to get a better idea of price/value. I do NOT think H stuff holds its value used as well as it should. If Leica holds true to past experiences with the M and R gear, it should hold its percentage of price better ... at least for the lenses. Other than that ... it's a Leica ... what else can I say?
Open for questions or even trying some other comparative exercise if I have time, and it doesn't involve shooting test charts or brick walls
P.S. Service: based on experiences to date, both companies have been responsive and swift. A good dealer relationship is essential. Warranties: the Leica extended warranty is more expensive than the Hasselblad ones, BUT if you want HOT swap coverage then the gap closes. Hasselblad doesn't offer any extended service warranty for lenses where Leica does ... but I don't know if the lens that comes with a Hassy kit is covered by the over-all extended warranty.
johnnygoesdigital
New member
First, my reasoning and proof is based on actual use with both cameras. Second, the simple fact that Hasselblad has more points of entry for dust is rudimentary, i.e. the viewfinder...one big point of entry!
Marc, you and others seem to jump on my comments whenever I mention the H4D, I owned the camera and used it, shot many fantastic published images, but this is a forum about digital photography, and I express my comments from my perspective...like it or not! Also, many of your earlier comments about the S2 were made without reasoning or proof either, but more of concern about reliability. I think it starts with the prices for these cameras, we expect them to perform flawlessly when compared to 35mm. As a studio camera the H4D is amazing, but I don't have several other cameras to choose from. I will in fact, use the camera that for me, fills all the roles, and that right now is a Phase...like it or not!
The major error here is that you think I care what you use ... actually I could not care less. Use what you like or feel fits you best. It is actually none of my business.
However, if my experience differs from yours I'll say so. Like it or not.
BTW, while I have not used the DF camera, I have used the Mamiya 645AF with a Leaf Aptus back ... and any dust issue was the same even though there is no removeable viewfinder or waist level finder. Most certainly not a reason to go or not go with any of these MFDs ... but I'd rather have the option of using different finders because that fits my needs better.
-Marc
johnnygoesdigital
New member
My experience with the H viewfinder was indeed different. Not only did more dust enter via that area, but also the contacts could be compromised, with bumping or jarring. That's not a problem with the waist finder, as there's no info anyway.
Many photographers only think of their gear as tools and their photos show it, but they're more than just that. Photography is unique in its ability to effect emotion and response. Having a camera that you never want to put down allows the photographer to extend or expand his creative process, and thus learn more, and effect good technique.
Subtle comments and smiley faces only go so far...
Many photographers only think of their gear as tools and their photos show it, but they're more than just that. Photography is unique in its ability to effect emotion and response. Having a camera that you never want to put down allows the photographer to extend or expand his creative process, and thus learn more, and effect good technique.
Subtle comments and smiley faces only go so far...
jecxz
Active member
Thanks Derek, glad someone read it
BTW, your work is terrific! Lots of soul there. That rows of trees shot knocked my socks off!
-Marc
Johnny, I am always interested to see the work of forum contributors. Would it be possible to post some of your images or a link to them?
jecxz
Active member
Thank you Marc. I've followed your other posts as well and at Nick's forum too. We're lucky you contribute here and there. I know a lot of people value your writings besides me. Enjoy the weekend and be well.
;d
;d
Thanks Derek, glad someone read it
BTW, your work is terrific! Lots of soul there. That rows of trees shot knocked my socks off!
-Marc
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