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A must read comparison

Don Libby

Well-known member
too early this morning and still waiting for that first cup of coffee - otherwise I'd say what was on my mind .......
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
Still impressed with what that little M9 can produce. Fantastic lenses, little or no anti-aliasing filter and a CCD sensor are a great combination.
 

TRSmith

Subscriber Member
Gentlemen! You are all vastly experienced, heavily invested and masters of the MF Universe. No doubt there are things about this test that rankle or disturb.

But for those of us who remain mere mortals (or worse, virgins), the Pentax is exactly what we've been hoping for and waiting for. Namely, a larger-format camera with a reasonable price-to-performance ratio. I'm still not sure MF is for me, but it has suddenly become a less-distant possibility.

My greatest hope is that the ripple effect from its apparent quality/price combo is to drive ALL camera prices downward. Personally, I think it's time they did.
 

Terry

New member
I had been very interested in the 645D and was patiently waiting for it to come to market. The form factor of the body looked more appealing to me than the DF body (which is hard for me to easily handle). I even bought the 80-160 when I found one up for sale (it is listed in the buy/sell here for anyone interested).

Along the way I found a very good deal on a P40+ and went in that direction in order to use it on a tech camera. I am thrilled with the tech camera and the results I'm getting with the P40+ and Arca combo.

That being said, I'm still interested to see how the 645D does in the real world because again the body to me is more appealing than the current DF body. So I read with interest both the piece posted a couple of days ago and now this shoot out. A couple of things struck me:

1) I am not totally facile with the P40+ back yet but changing ISO/WB etc really are NOT difficult. Nor is setting the self timer on the DF body. I'm sure setting these things on the Pentax is easy but not sure I agree with this:

"Forgive me for mounting my favourite hobby-horse before riding into battle. Mark is a relatively new Phase owner, but he has shot with the camera a lot more than I have with the 645D. Even so, it was striking how much more quickly I was able to make the camera do what we wanted: change ISO, change exposure mode, nail the histogram, flip to self-timer, bracket matching frames at different exposures through different f-stops and ISOs, change batteries, etc. (Oh wait, that was only Mark fumbling for AA cells. I had another 452 shots left to go )"

2) I really didn't understand the comments about the shadow/highlight function in C1 being useless. I am still better at using Lightroom than C1 but I really haven't had a problem in getting what I need out of C1. I can do more now in C1 than in LR (except local adjustments)

"It so happened that the “High Dynamic Range” tool of Capture One (basically Highlight and Shadow tone recovery sliders) were completely inadequate for making a usable raw conversion, either on its own or complemented with other luminosity tools in that application. Therefore notwithstanding that Lightroom 3.2 does not yet have a bespoke profile for this image format, I instead converted the image in Lightroom, which has excellent tools for these situations, and uses a generic profile for its unprofiled formats."

3)ISO tests. I guess here I am a little bit baffled. I understand that ISO 800 is better on the 645D and that there isn't a 40MP ISO 1600 setting on the P40+ but I haven't figured out under what circumstances I (personally) would really use ISO 1600 and need that big of a file.....

I know this probably sounds fan girlish since I bought the P40+ but this is what jumped out at me reading the article.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
"It so happened that the “High Dynamic Range” tool of Capture One (basically Highlight and Shadow tone recovery sliders) were completely inadequate for making a usable raw conversion,
That's where he lost me -- it simply confirmed he knew absolutely nothing about how to properly use C1.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Pentax still sounds very interesting for me.
Looks like DSLR handling with MF sensor for "reasonable" price.

I still dont understand why they cant put a 35mm sized MF-style (CCD) sensor with 22MP in a Nikon/Canon/Sony DSLR body.
 

SergeiR

New member
Namely, a larger-format camera with a reasonable price-to-performance ratio. I'm still not sure MF is for me, but it has suddenly become a less-distant possibility.

its like Mamiya didnt exist? They broke this barrier well before Pentax, i am sorry.
Whoever wanted to go "there" - got there, using old bodies, used lenses and such.

But painting its all in pink, and claiming that "finally - body that would convert us..." - i just dont get it.

IMHO:

Only truly interesting part so far i see in 645D - multipoint AF. That said, knowing rather poorish abilities of AF on dSLR by Pentax - i am not exactly convinced how well it will work - too early.

And pictures of brick walls? come on.. Shoot something real with controlled light, and with uncontrolled light. Convert both RAWs with their "devoted" convertors , but no tweaking done. Then you getting some idea or noise and details.

MF world is so prone to shake/focus errors that in order to fully compare those - you got to pick up good lens, lock mirrors, use rangemeter or something and fire away.. Not just "oh we walked here and snapped few".
 
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TRSmith

Subscriber Member
Obviously, my mistake. I had no idea that the Mamiya cobble-together crowd was competing satisfactorily with outfits like the P40+.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Convert both RAWs with their "devoted" convertors , but no tweaking done. Then you getting some idea or noise and details.
And this is the second reason they lost me... You are exactly correct Sergei, downline processing can alter results dramatically.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
But for those of us who remain mere mortals (or worse, virgins), the Pentax is exactly what we've been hoping for and waiting for. Namely, a larger-format camera with a reasonable price-to-performance ratio. I'm still not sure MF is for me, but it has suddenly become a less-distant possibility.
I hear you TR, and I think this camera EXACTLY fills that space. And IMHO at it's price, it does not have to be "equal to" the big boys in the same pixel count arena --- sometimes "good enough" is just that...
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I agree. As long as it performs to a certain level of competence as a system than for most buyers that will be certainly good enough. It has a lot going for it and price is certainly a big plus here. Sure it may not do certain things and not have dedicated software but for the price some of that can be overlooked. I would still buy what i bought in the P40+ that really is not the question because i have a fully rounded system which as a Pro what i want. At this low entry point you can't expect miracles as a total system but what it has so far is very nice. If i take my Pro hat off for a second 10k for what you are getting as a good entry point to MF is nothing to sneeze at and it does have a long family of lenses that can be used. So this gives the buyer the ability to start shooting from wide to tele as soon as they buy it. Can't say that with the S2 right now since no real wide angle is yet out. My issue with this test is it is flawed on many levels but I am not going to harp on that. Bottom line they are not using the P40+ to the best of it's abilities not using the full gamut of C1. I will just leave it at that. As Jack said it's good enough and if it gets people in the door than it is hugely successful in my book. I would love to try it myself and see how it runs.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I think if Michael Reichman and Mark Dubovoy repeated the exercise using the Phase One & Pentax setup we'd surely be looking at a more definitive outcome. The whole article lacked any rigor for my liking ...

But it did reinforce my desire to get another M9 though :D
 
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Bob

Administrator
Staff member
I think if Michael Reichman and Mark Dubovoy repeated the exercise using the Phase One & Pentax setup we'd surely be looking at a more definitive outcome. The whole article lacked any rigor for my liking ...

But it did reinforce my desire to get another M9 though :D
Ahh an M9, I would too if I could only use the darn things, perhaps some day if they had a focus assist capability.
Horses for courses of course, the M9 weighs a LOT less than any MF gear, lenses of large diameter get very heavy very fast. But it was not weight they were comparing.

As for processing, well folks have said enough pretty much already, there is a clear lack of reasonable workflow and understanding of the tools expressed in that article.

Pretty much all cameras compete for any given use, some just do it better than others. Sensors ought to be considered "date of the art" rather than "state of the art" since that state changes on a week by week basis.

I just don't get the point about high iso medium format and its desirability as a feature. From my point of view, if you get some and do not loose anything I guess that would ok with me, but since there is engineering involved, and engineering is all about balancing compromises, there is usually a loss somewhere for each gain.

At the end of the day I will repeat my curmudgeonly advice.
Test what you are thinking of buying, use it under similar conditions you intend to shoot in, and please use the tools properly for each camera.

Sometimes these articles point folks in the wrong directions completely.
If ALL I was doing was web and 13 by 19s (which is a strange formant for 4:3 ratios), then any of those cameras would do just fine I expect as long as the ergos were ok, with varying degree of annoyance post processing.

p.s. For full disclosure I love my Phase One P65+ ;)
-bob
 

SergeiR

New member
And this is the second reason they lost me... You are exactly correct Sergei, downline processing can alter results dramatically.
Speaking of which, and while i remember to ask - Jack, can you suggest any book/e-book/dvd on tapping into C1 for real?

Sure, i am getting these videos in emails as registered C1Pro user and so on, but i sometime feel like reading a bit more, b/c every time i feel like i am missing something in there.
 
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