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Thread: A must read comparison

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Let the storm begin

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    Re: A must read comparison

    pictures of brick walls?

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    Re: A must read comparison

    I refuse to comment on the grounds it good start my dandruff again. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    too early this morning and still waiting for that first cup of coffee - otherwise I'd say what was on my mind .......
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    Re: A must read comparison


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    Re: A must read comparison

    Still impressed with what that little M9 can produce. Fantastic lenses, little or no anti-aliasing filter and a CCD sensor are a great combination.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Gentlemen! You are all vastly experienced, heavily invested and masters of the MF Universe. No doubt there are things about this test that rankle or disturb.

    But for those of us who remain mere mortals (or worse, virgins), the Pentax is exactly what we've been hoping for and waiting for. Namely, a larger-format camera with a reasonable price-to-performance ratio. I'm still not sure MF is for me, but it has suddenly become a less-distant possibility.

    My greatest hope is that the ripple effect from its apparent quality/price combo is to drive ALL camera prices downward. Personally, I think it's time they did.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    I had been very interested in the 645D and was patiently waiting for it to come to market. The form factor of the body looked more appealing to me than the DF body (which is hard for me to easily handle). I even bought the 80-160 when I found one up for sale (it is listed in the buy/sell here for anyone interested).

    Along the way I found a very good deal on a P40+ and went in that direction in order to use it on a tech camera. I am thrilled with the tech camera and the results I'm getting with the P40+ and Arca combo.

    That being said, I'm still interested to see how the 645D does in the real world because again the body to me is more appealing than the current DF body. So I read with interest both the piece posted a couple of days ago and now this shoot out. A couple of things struck me:

    1) I am not totally facile with the P40+ back yet but changing ISO/WB etc really are NOT difficult. Nor is setting the self timer on the DF body. I'm sure setting these things on the Pentax is easy but not sure I agree with this:

    "Forgive me for mounting my favourite hobby-horse before riding into battle. Mark is a relatively new Phase owner, but he has shot with the camera a lot more than I have with the 645D. Even so, it was striking how much more quickly I was able to make the camera do what we wanted: change ISO, change exposure mode, nail the histogram, flip to self-timer, bracket matching frames at different exposures through different f-stops and ISOs, change batteries, etc. (Oh wait, that was only Mark fumbling for AA cells. I had another 452 shots left to go )"

    2) I really didn't understand the comments about the shadow/highlight function in C1 being useless. I am still better at using Lightroom than C1 but I really haven't had a problem in getting what I need out of C1. I can do more now in C1 than in LR (except local adjustments)

    "It so happened that the “High Dynamic Range” tool of Capture One (basically Highlight and Shadow tone recovery sliders) were completely inadequate for making a usable raw conversion, either on its own or complemented with other luminosity tools in that application. Therefore notwithstanding that Lightroom 3.2 does not yet have a bespoke profile for this image format, I instead converted the image in Lightroom, which has excellent tools for these situations, and uses a generic profile for its unprofiled formats."

    3)ISO tests. I guess here I am a little bit baffled. I understand that ISO 800 is better on the 645D and that there isn't a 40MP ISO 1600 setting on the P40+ but I haven't figured out under what circumstances I (personally) would really use ISO 1600 and need that big of a file.....

    I know this probably sounds fan girlish since I bought the P40+ but this is what jumped out at me reading the article.

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    Senior Member symbolphoto's Avatar
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    Re: A must read comparison

    I want to see a S2 vs. Hassy vs. Phase myself....

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post

    "It so happened that the “High Dynamic Range” tool of Capture One (basically Highlight and Shadow tone recovery sliders) were completely inadequate for making a usable raw conversion,
    That's where he lost me -- it simply confirmed he knew absolutely nothing about how to properly use C1.
    Jack
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    Re: A must read comparison

    Pentax still sounds very interesting for me.
    Looks like DSLR handling with MF sensor for "reasonable" price.

    I still dont understand why they cant put a 35mm sized MF-style (CCD) sensor with 22MP in a Nikon/Canon/Sony DSLR body.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    Namely, a larger-format camera with a reasonable price-to-performance ratio. I'm still not sure MF is for me, but it has suddenly become a less-distant possibility.

    its like Mamiya didnt exist? They broke this barrier well before Pentax, i am sorry.
    Whoever wanted to go "there" - got there, using old bodies, used lenses and such.

    But painting its all in pink, and claiming that "finally - body that would convert us..." - i just dont get it.

    IMHO:

    Only truly interesting part so far i see in 645D - multipoint AF. That said, knowing rather poorish abilities of AF on dSLR by Pentax - i am not exactly convinced how well it will work - too early.

    And pictures of brick walls? come on.. Shoot something real with controlled light, and with uncontrolled light. Convert both RAWs with their "devoted" convertors , but no tweaking done. Then you getting some idea or noise and details.

    MF world is so prone to shake/focus errors that in order to fully compare those - you got to pick up good lens, lock mirrors, use rangemeter or something and fire away.. Not just "oh we walked here and snapped few".
    Last edited by SergeiR; 16th November 2010 at 06:52.

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    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: A must read comparison

    Obviously, my mistake. I had no idea that the Mamiya cobble-together crowd was competing satisfactorily with outfits like the P40+.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    Convert both RAWs with their "devoted" convertors , but no tweaking done. Then you getting some idea or noise and details.
    And this is the second reason they lost me... You are exactly correct Sergei, downline processing can alter results dramatically.
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post

    But for those of us who remain mere mortals (or worse, virgins), the Pentax is exactly what we've been hoping for and waiting for. Namely, a larger-format camera with a reasonable price-to-performance ratio. I'm still not sure MF is for me, but it has suddenly become a less-distant possibility.
    I hear you TR, and I think this camera EXACTLY fills that space. And IMHO at it's price, it does not have to be "equal to" the big boys in the same pixel count arena --- sometimes "good enough" is just that...
    Jack
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: A must read comparison

    I agree. As long as it performs to a certain level of competence as a system than for most buyers that will be certainly good enough. It has a lot going for it and price is certainly a big plus here. Sure it may not do certain things and not have dedicated software but for the price some of that can be overlooked. I would still buy what i bought in the P40+ that really is not the question because i have a fully rounded system which as a Pro what i want. At this low entry point you can't expect miracles as a total system but what it has so far is very nice. If i take my Pro hat off for a second 10k for what you are getting as a good entry point to MF is nothing to sneeze at and it does have a long family of lenses that can be used. So this gives the buyer the ability to start shooting from wide to tele as soon as they buy it. Can't say that with the S2 right now since no real wide angle is yet out. My issue with this test is it is flawed on many levels but I am not going to harp on that. Bottom line they are not using the P40+ to the best of it's abilities not using the full gamut of C1. I will just leave it at that. As Jack said it's good enough and if it gets people in the door than it is hugely successful in my book. I would love to try it myself and see how it runs.
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    Re: A must read comparison

    I think if Michael Reichman and Mark Dubovoy repeated the exercise using the Phase One & Pentax setup we'd surely be looking at a more definitive outcome. The whole article lacked any rigor for my liking ...

    But it did reinforce my desire to get another M9 though
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 16th November 2010 at 08:36.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I think if Michael Reichman and Mark Dubovoy repeated the exercise using the Phase One & Pentax setup we'd surely be looking at a more definitive outcome. The whole article lacked any rigor for my liking ...

    But it did reinforce my desire to get another M9 though
    Ahh an M9, I would too if I could only use the darn things, perhaps some day if they had a focus assist capability.
    Horses for courses of course, the M9 weighs a LOT less than any MF gear, lenses of large diameter get very heavy very fast. But it was not weight they were comparing.

    As for processing, well folks have said enough pretty much already, there is a clear lack of reasonable workflow and understanding of the tools expressed in that article.

    Pretty much all cameras compete for any given use, some just do it better than others. Sensors ought to be considered "date of the art" rather than "state of the art" since that state changes on a week by week basis.

    I just don't get the point about high iso medium format and its desirability as a feature. From my point of view, if you get some and do not loose anything I guess that would ok with me, but since there is engineering involved, and engineering is all about balancing compromises, there is usually a loss somewhere for each gain.

    At the end of the day I will repeat my curmudgeonly advice.
    Test what you are thinking of buying, use it under similar conditions you intend to shoot in, and please use the tools properly for each camera.

    Sometimes these articles point folks in the wrong directions completely.
    If ALL I was doing was web and 13 by 19s (which is a strange formant for 4:3 ratios), then any of those cameras would do just fine I expect as long as the ergos were ok, with varying degree of annoyance post processing.

    p.s. For full disclosure I love my Phase One P65+
    -bob

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    And this is the second reason they lost me... You are exactly correct Sergei, downline processing can alter results dramatically.
    Speaking of which, and while i remember to ask - Jack, can you suggest any book/e-book/dvd on tapping into C1 for real?

    Sure, i am getting these videos in emails as registered C1Pro user and so on, but i sometime feel like reading a bit more, b/c every time i feel like i am missing something in there.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    I don't understand these type of tests with photos of brick walls and whatnot. These are the kind of tests that I do when I buy a piece of used equipment to quickly make sure it's functioning correctly, not to determine if I like the equipment or not.

    I just wish I could find some good photographs taken with the Pentax 645D somewhere on the web. To clarify, when I say "good photographs" I do not mean photographs that show how many pixels it has or that it is capable of auto-focusing correctly. So far most of what I am finding are photos of items one might find in their kitchen, some flower blossoms, and touristy type snapshots one might just as easily take with a point & shoot camera. Oh, and some brick walls.

    Is there anyone out there using this camera to more of its full potential? Maybe some great landscapes? Some fabulous B&W conversions? Something interesting?

    Yes I already checked out the Pentax 645D group on Flickr. It is greatly lacking in the "interestingness" department.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Lu-La has a very good video series on using C1. Better than C1's rather short offerings.
    Bill

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    Still impressed with what that little M9 can produce. Fantastic lenses, little or no anti-aliasing filter and a CCD sensor are a great combination.
    I agree, Kurt. I have recently made some 30 inch prints from M9 files and darned if they don't look as good as my P65+ files at a reasonable viewing distance.....

    Bill

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post

    I just don't get the point about high iso medium format and its desirability as a feature. From my point of view, if you get some and do not loose anything I guess that would ok with me, but since there is engineering involved, and engineering is all about balancing compromises, there is usually a loss somewhere for each gain.
    Bob,

    When I got my Canon 5dMark2 I found out there was a whole world of possibilities when using iso's like 4,000 or higher that weren't there with my 5d. Point is as you have higher iso's, especially if you photography people or events or sports or weddings, the possibilities available to you increase.

    And in the case of the 5dMK2, nothing was lost and there was nice gain in quality of images. So it probably can be done with mf.

    I recognize that one camera can't do everything, but higher iso makes the mf cameras much more useful to many of us.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Pentax still sounds very interesting for me.
    Looks like DSLR handling with MF sensor for "reasonable" price.

    I still dont understand why they cant put a 35mm sized MF-style (CCD) sensor with 22MP in a Nikon/Canon/Sony DSLR body.
    Why? The rather ancient sensor technology that the CCDs in these MFDBs (and the M9) are derived from is not particularly great at the pixel level. It's the lack of an AA, supporting electronics, sensor size, and very good CFAs that are probably what you're seeing as an advantage over the CMOS sensors in DSLRs. I'd rather see the opposite: a MFDB with a large EXMOR CMOS sensor in it.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    Speaking of which, and while i remember to ask - Jack, can you suggest any book/e-book/dvd on tapping into C1 for real?

    Sure, i am getting these videos in emails as registered C1Pro user and so on, but i sometime feel like reading a bit more, b/c every time i feel like i am missing something in there.
    It's tough to learn C1 from a book. The web tutorials are fine, but they limit your interaction with the instructor and ultimately that's where they fall apart (IMHO).

    The best way to learn it is to be able to interact directly with somebody teaching you that can show you all the ins and outs in a clear, concise fashion. Guy and I do offer 1-on-1 instruction, which is I think the best way to learn it, but ultimately it's not convenient for everybody depending on their geographic location. (Of course our workshops are excellent in this regard too!) The next best thing I can recommend would be one of Capture Integration's online webinar series -- Doug Peterson (Dougpetersonci on this forum) is an excellent C1 instructor
    Jack
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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by David Schneider View Post
    Bob,

    When I got my Canon 5dMark2 I found out there was a whole world of possibilities when using iso's like 4,000 or higher that weren't there with my 5d. Point is as you have higher iso's, especially if you photography people or events or sports or weddings, the possibilities available to you increase.

    And in the case of the 5dMK2, nothing was lost and there was nice gain in quality of images. So it probably can be done with mf.

    I recognize that one camera can't do everything, but higher iso makes the mf cameras much more useful to many of us.
    David,
    As an ex 5D Mark II owner I disagree.
    The step from 5D to mark II was an improvement, but the trade off in the 5DII produced images that had smeary color at almost all isos which grew worse with increasing sensitivity. ok, sure it allowed you to get something but at the loss of several bits of image information depth and increases in banding. Of course if what you shoot is all about low light, then it is a must for you, but for what I shoot ISO above 800 was unusable.
    -bob

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    Re: A must read comparison

    I thought it was an interesting read. Some parts were informative and others just speculative and / or biased. Although the Pentax is undoubtably a good camera, when I buy a camera my decision is not based solely on it's absolute performance, but also the complete system makeup and after sales support. I'm prepared to pay more for a system I can grow with and rely on. At the moment the best all around bang for the buck camera for me seems to be the (mythical) H4D-31. I suspect Phase has a product to compete at that price point now or in the works that I'm unaware of, and if it mounts on a tech cam I reckon it would also be a winner. If money were no object and I was prone to buying with my heart only, I'd buy the S2. Oh the be a poor, struggling photographer...

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: A must read comparison

    Looking on the bright side, any competition has to be a good thing. There was a time when the Pentax would have appealed to me but, boy, did they take their time about getting back into the market ... they missed that boat.
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 16th November 2010 at 14:19.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    David,
    As an ex 5D Mark II owner I disagree.
    The step from 5D to mark II was an improvement, but the trade off in the 5DII produced images that had smeary color at almost all isos which grew worse with increasing sensitivity. ok, sure it allowed you to get something but at the loss of several bits of image information depth and increases in banding. Of course if what you shoot is all about low light, then it is a must for you, but for what I shoot ISO above 800 was unusable.
    -bob
    I shoot a D700 and recently edited a friends images for an exhibition that were shot with a 5DII. The images were shot at all ISOs up to 6400. Admitting that my perspective is biased towards Nikon, I was genuinely impressed with the file quality of the Canon across the board. They certainly looked different with regards to colour rendition etc, but I think in its category the MKII punches above its weight. And in print the images looked great, which is the real test.
    I'm certain others have a different opinion on the Canon files to me, and that they don't hold a candle to MF images at low ISOs, but I recount this story only because I really don't like Canon products - I have had bad experiences with many EOS cameras and would never buy another. I guess it depends on expectations and the application for which the camera is being used. For the type of photos I take to satisfy my own creative ends, I agree with Bob. I'd prefer to use his P65+!

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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    Still impressed with what that little M9 can produce. Fantastic lenses, little or no anti-aliasing filter and a CCD sensor are a great combination.
    I'm but I'm still there will be no R10.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by tokengirl View Post
    I don't understand these type of tests with photos of brick walls and whatnot. These are the kind of tests that I do when I buy a piece of used equipment to quickly make sure it's functioning correctly, not to determine if I like the equipment or not.

    I just wish I could find some good photographs taken with the Pentax 645D somewhere on the web. To clarify, when I say "good photographs" I do not mean photographs that show how many pixels it has or that it is capable of auto-focusing correctly. So far most of what I am finding are photos of items one might find in their kitchen, some flower blossoms, and touristy type snapshots one might just as easily take with a point & shoot camera. Oh, and some brick walls.

    Is there anyone out there using this camera to more of its full potential? Maybe some great landscapes? Some fabulous B&W conversions? Something interesting?

    Yes I already checked out the Pentax 645D group on Flickr. It is greatly lacking in the "interestingness" department.
    +1.

    -Marc

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Doug, sadly I'm certain that there are many who feel the way that you do. Though only 10mp, the DMR still provides some of the most gorgeous image quality that I've seen. It's really a shame that Leica's managerial and financial issues at the time prevented the company from developing a serious replacement. IMHO, focusing on the strength of its lenses, the concept of a limited AA filter and final image quality would have attracted a passionate following. Even if Leica never came close to putting a dent to Canon or Nikon sales numbers, you have to think that there was and still is an audience for Leica R 35mm solutions. And, most would probably pay a premium to get that solution. At this point in time it's an opportunity lost.

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: A must read comparison

    They did the 1Ds III wrong in that comparison. For one thing, they failed to appropriately sharpen the files to compensate for the AA filter. For another, the 24-105L is not a reasonable choice to go up against the 50mm Summilux. Either of the Zeiss ZE 50mm lenses (both of which are pretty much flawless across the frame at f/8) would have made for a better comparison.

  35. #35
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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    They did the 1Ds III wrong in that comparison. For one thing, they failed to appropriately sharpen the files to compensate for the AA filter. For another, the 24-105L is not a reasonable choice to go up against the 50mm Summilux. Either of the Zeiss ZE 50mm lenses (both of which are pretty much flawless across the frame at f/8) would have made for a better comparison.
    Hell, just about any 50 mm prime would have been a better comparison than what they used.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    I'm but I'm still there will be no R10.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Dunno about high ISO. I got camera for that, its called D700.. And even then - after initial test period (as i had to write article on that for russian magazine, right after D700 did make it to market) - i can use fingers to count times when i really went higher than iso400.. and even 400 would be there to just save battery in flashes.

    I just think there should be specialized tools for everything. Big fan of specialization

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    Re: A must read comparison

    PS: thanks , Jack. Unfortunately i am now living in place a bit far from AZ Used to drive to Phoenix often, to learn and for fun, when lived in Durango, but no more. But i will ponder on this

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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by tokengirl View Post
    .. I already checked out the Pentax 645D group on Flickr. It is greatly lacking in the "interestingness" department.
    I don't think that's the camera's fault. Not saying that I could do better, but it usually takes me several months' use to learn how to get the most out of a new tool.

    IMHO the Canon comparison in the LuLa link shouldn't be considered an accurate review of the camera's capabilities but it's funny to see the Canon fans' shorts get tied in knots.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    As flawed as it may be, it has me seriously saving my pennies for a Pentax.

    I'm not in love with the AF-DII body that I have, and the ZD simply does not work well enough for what I want. Give me some of that speed. ( Both ISO and ergonomic ) Right now, the best deal that I have seen on a 40 mpix back is 14K. That is, 40% more than the Pentax. There is that tethering issue, but I don't tether anyway. In the long run, I think that will matter to me. There always is the eye-fi option though.

    I have promised myself a year will go by living with the foibles of the ZD before I upgrade. I'm still not sure if Nikon will get squeezed out or not. I will spare you all my angst!

    Dave

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Generally, you can get a feel for image making potential of this gear pretty quickly, and then spend weeks or months squeezing more quality out of it via post ... which in turn can teach you how to go back and tweak how you shoot the camera. However, in reality it rarely alters the fundamental image making impressions you get with-in a short time.

    In short, some things just click right out of the box, and some take longer, and some never really click for a user. Anyone that's made this trek for a while can attest to this, and have their stories.

    In the end, it's what the photos look like to the eye of the beholder. Subjectivity is the final determining factor, not brick wall tests and shooting charts. In fact I don't actually trust those anymore even done in the strictest of circumstances. They can trick you into a technical mind set that increasingly distances itself from making interesting photos. Which is why some are less focused on technical perfection from the tools they use.

    I personally do not like this bully trend, where feel is subjugated to statistics and specifications.

    I personally do not like what I've seen from this Pentax camera so far, and I trust my eye far more than words from these guys. For that matter, I have the same opinion of the S2 which I've made no secret of ... even the excellent photography showcased in the latest Leica magazine left me cool about the "feel" produced by the S2. So, price sure isn't the determining factor, subjectivity is. Do you love the stuff you get from it?

    -Marc

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    In the end, it's what the photos look like to the eye of the beholder. Subjectivity is the final determining factor, not brick wall tests and shooting charts. In fact I don't actually trust those anymore even done in the strictest of circumstances. They can trick you into a technical mind set that increasingly distances itself from making interesting photos. Which is why some are less focused on technical perfection from the tools they use.

    I personally do not like this bully trend, where feel is subjugated to statistics and specifications.
    Amen!!! Thank you for articulating this so well.

    And I did finally find something interesting - if you're interested in the Pentax, bookmark this guy's Flickr stream and check back regularly:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/harklee/

    He recently acquired the Pentax, he was shooting with a 5DMkII before that. He has included some of his observations in his photostream, and I look forward to seeing his future work with this new camera. Because he is using this tool to make the kind of photos that he likes rather than photos of brick walls, his opinion of this camera is far more useful, IMO.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    I find it interesting he says he didn't notice much difference in Dynamic Range compared to his 5d mkII, I found quite a big difference with my Hassy compared to the 5d mkII.. seeing as they use the same sensor you would think they would be similar... wonder how he converts his raw files.
    www.williamophuis.com

    Hassy H4D-40.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    I'll go out on a limb here on the Pentax from what I have seen so far it reminds me from a image standpoint of a ZD back. The ZD is a nice back but it does not have a look that resembles some of the newer backs with neutrality in color and the files look a little crunchy to me. A lot like my old P25+ with the 9 micron sensor which I did love but it certainly has a different feel than the P40+ and Hassy HD40. Even the S2 for that matter which has a similar sensor looks a little more opened up and less crunchy. Now maybe it is the processing that I am seeing or something else just not sure since I have yet to play with these files from it. So I do reserve final judgement on it for sure. Just have not really seen images that are saying something else than what I am thinking.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by tokengirl View Post
    Amen!!! Thank you for articulating this so well.

    And I did finally find something interesting - if you're interested in the Pentax, bookmark this guy's Flickr stream and check back regularly:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/harklee/

    He recently acquired the Pentax, he was shooting with a 5DMkII before that. He has included some of his observations in his photostream, and I look forward to seeing his future work with this new camera. Because he is using this tool to make the kind of photos that he likes rather than photos of brick walls, his opinion of this camera is far more useful, IMO.
    Yeah, that guy seems to know what he's doing no doubt ... with his new Pentax AND his older Canon 5DMKII.

    BTW, I think it is fine to assess technical capabilities ... but as you say, it is far more useful in context to what you have a passion for shooting. While photographer's aren't necessarily scientists, they usually are good at subjectively assessing gear from the perspective of how they make photographs, and of what.

    Generally, my investigations revolve around shooting people. In studio, on the street, at events and environmental portraits ... and very little landscape work, so what I look for isn't necessarily in tune with those types of shooters.

    -Marc

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yeah, that guy seems to know what he's doing no doubt ... with his new Pentax AND his older Canon 5DMKII.

    BTW, I think it is fine to assess technical capabilities ... but as you say, it is far more useful in context to what you have a passion for shooting. While photographer's aren't necessarily scientists, they usually are good at subjectively assessing gear from the perspective of how they make photographs, and of what.

    Generally, my investigations revolve around shooting people. In studio, on the street, at events and environmental portraits ... and very little landscape work, so what I look for isn't necessarily in tune with those types of shooters.

    -Marc
    Great point,
    and if you would ever like to touch off a firestorm, just start a thread on which camera gives you the "best" skin tones LOL
    -bob

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Great point,
    and if you would ever like to touch off a firestorm, just start a thread on which camera gives you the "best" skin tones LOL
    -bob
    Lets not go there. Been fighting this war in 35mm for 20 years. I'm on to Sony now.

    My Phase is wonderful in this area for sure as most MF systems are. I'm just a CCD person at heart.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'll go out on a limb here on the Pentax from what I have seen so far it reminds me from a image standpoint of a ZD back. The ZD is a nice back but it does not have a look that resembles some of the newer backs with neutrality in color and the files look a little crunchy to me. A lot like my old P25+ with the 9 micron sensor which I did love but it certainly has a different feel than the P40+ and Hassy HD40. Even the S2 for that matter which has a similar sensor looks a little more opened up and less crunchy. Now maybe it is the processing that I am seeing or something else just not sure since I have yet to play with these files from it. So I do reserve final judgement on it for sure. Just have not really seen images that are saying something else than what I am thinking.
    That's what I mean ... "crunchy" means more to me that a bunch of tech jargon ...

    It's like the "waxy" comments made about some of the later Canon cameras that cheesed off so many Canon users ... but I was one of those Canon owners, and in truth couldn't disagree.

    However, different strokes for different folks ... and one person's this, is another person's that.

    -Marc

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    Re: A must read comparison

    re shimming

    In woodwork excellent joinery is measured by fairly loose tolerances millimeters even on the best dovetail for example - doesn't matter because wood is live - sucking in moisture and reacting to temperature changing all the time but we hardly notice this stuff - except when poor material meets poor craftsmanship ..and the old sticky drawer routine kicks in!

    In metal work a good job is accurate to .0005 of an inch..even metal expands and contracts at relatively minor temp changes - do you really think that your camera body mated tolerances to back and lens are consistent in any conditions? I mean these chips are designed as components at the microscopic level - (Leica make nice 'scopes ya know)

    taking this brief diversion a little further.

    In photography using a large megapixel digi back ? I doubt very very much that the crapola these guys sell to us ( I mean that in the technical sense of the word) does justice to the capabilities of any back - you are working with molded bodies and all sorts of bits and pieces in side and out ..

    Itake my hat off to all the manufacturers working as well as they do!

    hence the basic tech camera set up properly will give the most fastidious user and fuss pot the best outcome as measured by whatever brick wall or focus chart test they prefer

    however - photography isn't about this kind of (b)anality - for me anyway

    for exactitude -

    I am currently shopping around for a milling machine and a lathe - maybe CNC or not - I don't know if I can be bothered learning autocad and various different programs to do the G Code conversion ( a basic machine language in the true sense of the word)

    I can buy a high end milling machine and lathe for less than the cost of what I paid for my 40 megapixel backs..this equipment will outlast me and with good care the offspring of my progeny - meanwhile the MFD makers make each of our best ever cameras and backs obsolete every time they bring out the new bestest...

    My first want to make project is my own custom made to fit arca style plates and other photo gear stuff..it is ridiculous how much many of use have forked out for a Cube for example ..

    later it will be fun to make my own alpa style frames - I may even copy them as a hobbyist with access to some fine old gentlemen toolmakers (machinists) to teach me some tricks - I look forward to this new adventure..

    Cheers
    pete

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    Re: A must read comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Ophuis View Post
    I find it interesting he says he didn't notice much difference in Dynamic Range compared to his 5d mkII, I found quite a big difference with my Hassy compared to the 5d mkII.. seeing as they use the same sensor you would think they would be similar... wonder how he converts his raw files.
    Yeah, I wrinkled a brow over that myself. Is the Pentax 16 bit? And I wonder if having to use DNG RAW software has anything to do with that? I know that opening Hassey files in LR doesn't seem to have as much latitude as when processed in Phocus. I can make up for it a little bit in LR by using selective tools to pull out more in areas ... but it can get dicey.

    -Marc

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