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long exposure, P25+ vs Aptus 22
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dougpeterson
Workshop Member
There is no comparison here - the P25+ will perform MUCH better than the Aptus 22 at anything over 20 or so seconds (depending on temperature). The P45+ is definitely THE king here, but the P25+ holds it's own. With modern firmware the P25+ can easily go into the 30 minute range and is technically spec'd at one hour (assuming 63F air temperature) though I've only personally done exposures in the teens of minutes (14-15 minutes) at which point the back was holding it's own.
Descending order of Phase long exposure abilities in my experience:
P45+
P30+
P25+ P20+ P21+
(big gap)
P45 non plus
(big gap)
Everything else
Depending on your criterium / workflow / temperature etc an Aptus 22 may go to 15 seconds, or 30 seconds, but under no conditions will you stretch it much past that.
A P45 non plus may be a good option for you.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Descending order of Phase long exposure abilities in my experience:
P45+
P30+
P25+ P20+ P21+
(big gap)
P45 non plus
(big gap)
Everything else
Depending on your criterium / workflow / temperature etc an Aptus 22 may go to 15 seconds, or 30 seconds, but under no conditions will you stretch it much past that.
A P45 non plus may be a good option for you.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
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Buy Capture One at 10% off
I'm curious to know why there is a difference between, e.g. the P25+ and P25, in this respect. Is this a firmware issue?, meaning the P25 does not get any new firmware improvements? I was informed that the only differences between the backs (P vs. P+) were:
1. The brighter higher resolution preview screen.
2. Increased Iso range to 800 on P25+ versus 400 on non plus.
3. Plus versions have a live video focus/compose mode for use only when tethered to computer.
This is a real big deal for me (looking at entry at the low end), because I value the long-exposure of the phase backs, but it the P25 is really so bad, I'll have to think again
.
Cheers, -Peter
1. The brighter higher resolution preview screen.
2. Increased Iso range to 800 on P25+ versus 400 on non plus.
3. Plus versions have a live video focus/compose mode for use only when tethered to computer.
This is a real big deal for me (looking at entry at the low end), because I value the long-exposure of the phase backs, but it the P25 is really so bad, I'll have to think again
.Cheers, -Peter
S
SCHWARZZEIT
Guest
Have you considered using film for this application?
Compared to any digital back it's really low in price and the quality you can achieve, especially when going for a larger format, can be better than any digital one shot solution. What you lose is convenience of course. It takes a few more steps to get to the final image with film. For me the results are really worth the hassle.
May I ask what's the subject of your long exposures?
-Dominique
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
Who informed you of that? Those are certainly the largest differences (for most people's applications).I'm curious to know why there is a difference between, e.g. the P25+ and P25, in this respect. Is this a firmware issue?, meaning the P25 does not get any new firmware improvements? I was informed that the only differences between the backs (P vs. P+) were:
1. The brighter higher resolution preview screen.
2. Increased Iso range to 800 on P25+ versus 400 on non plus.
3. Plus versions have a live video focus/compose mode for use only when tethered to computer.
This is a real big deal for me (looking at entry at the low end), because I value the long-exposure of the phase backs, but it the P25 is really so bad, I'll have to think again
P+ has a lot of under the hood hardware changes - it was NOT just a firmware update.
P+ also has
- a count-up / count-down timer for long exposures
- the ability to run off battery power when tethered (P20/P25 non plus did not)
- firmware compatible with modern CF cards (You can easily find CF cards compatible with P non plus units but only online, not in stores)
- different IR cut filter (helpful with foliage color, deep blacks especially in artificial fabrics and hot rock surfaces)
- much better long exposure capabilities
P25 non plus will not go past 20-40 seconds (depending on temperature) before noise makes the image unusable. As I said above P25+ is spec'd at an hour and I've done exposures in the teens of minutes (e.g. 15 minutes) with no issues.
Very few digital backs can go past 30 seconds and even fewer to 60 seconds. Only the P+ series and the P45 can go into the realm of "many minutes" (e.g. 6 minutes, 20 minutes etc).
The P25+ is the right way for you to go if you want long exposures on a budget. Buy it from a dealer that can ensure you will get the latest firmware, since some early P25+ will have trouble taking the 5.1.2 firmware without a trip to the factory (would be covered under warranty, but very few if any P25+ on the private market will be in warranty). Firmware is very important to long exposures.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
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Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I had a P25+ and i did several 20 minute shots with no issues . Great back
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
Film also suffers from reciprocity, limiting your options, especially for color imaging to a select handful of emulsions. Each has it's limitations.
A P45+ (and to slightly lesser extent a P30+/P25+/P20+/P21+) with modern firmware and processed in Capture One 5 captures a shocking amount of highlight/shadow detail in a long exposure raw file. If you haven't used this combination then you haven't seen what digital long exposures can be.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One at 10% off
my application is architecture... i've used portra 100T for years, but we don't have anymore decent lab in the second city of france... and the 100T no longer exist + the fact that i hate scanning !
is it still possible to buy refurb backs ? P45+ ? P25+ ? V mount ?
i will probably wait for six month to raise the money... anyway, i will keep my aptus 22 that shine for some application, including architecture in daylight with mvts, and art reproduction (3D) !
is it still possible to buy refurb backs ? P45+ ? P25+ ? V mount ?
i will probably wait for six month to raise the money... anyway, i will keep my aptus 22 that shine for some application, including architecture in daylight with mvts, and art reproduction (3D) !
S
SCHWARZZEIT
Guest
Hi Doug,
I think none of the photographic color emulsions available today were designed specifically for long exposures, and still I can get something useful and interesting from these films during night photography. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the work of Michael Wesely who pushed the boundaries of long exposure photography to the very extreme with his multi year single exposures.
For color reproduction I have no doubt that any MFDB is more accurate than film as long as it stays within its capabilities, i.e. none of the color channels reach full saturation in the raw file. But so far from what I've seen is that these sensors reach saturation within a few seconds, sometimes even less, when there's a direct light source like a street lamp within the frame.
With color film what can happen during very long exposure times are color shifts. The different emulsion layers react differently to very low flux levels. But this can be corrected to some degree in the hybrid workflow.
As a long exposure photographer I'm not striving for absolute scientific color accuracy. The color response of the film has to support my vision of the image. That's what matters to me. As human beings we visually perceive time differently than what can be achieved in long exposure photography. An interesting color is more important to me than an absolutely correct color.
Could you show a sample to demonstrate the long exposure qualities that can be achieved with these backs and where think it's better than film?
Showing an overview and a few crops of critical areas would do, providing a raw file would be even better. This is a recurring subject on the this forum. I'm sure there's a great interest.
-Dominique
Yes, reciprocity failure can be a problem for film based photography on ultra low flux levels. The flux threshold for CCD and CMOS image sensors is much lower. It's a matter of quantum efficiency. In most cases that can be compensated by adding exposure time on film. But in some cases, e.g. astrophotography, a sensor is more effective in recording very low light levels.
I think none of the photographic color emulsions available today were designed specifically for long exposures, and still I can get something useful and interesting from these films during night photography. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the work of Michael Wesely who pushed the boundaries of long exposure photography to the very extreme with his multi year single exposures.
For color reproduction I have no doubt that any MFDB is more accurate than film as long as it stays within its capabilities, i.e. none of the color channels reach full saturation in the raw file. But so far from what I've seen is that these sensors reach saturation within a few seconds, sometimes even less, when there's a direct light source like a street lamp within the frame.
With color film what can happen during very long exposure times are color shifts. The different emulsion layers react differently to very low flux levels. But this can be corrected to some degree in the hybrid workflow.
As a long exposure photographer I'm not striving for absolute scientific color accuracy. The color response of the film has to support my vision of the image. That's what matters to me. As human beings we visually perceive time differently than what can be achieved in long exposure photography. An interesting color is more important to me than an absolutely correct color.
To be honest, I haven't tried that combination myself. I have seen some long exposure samples from these backs (P45+ and P30+), some on this forum provided at web size by Guy and Jack, some at other places. One thing that I found odd about these samples was a mottled red channel. I have no clue what was done in software. I can only tell that this occurred on all the multi minute exposure samples I've seen so far from these Phase backs, even at web size.
Could you show a sample to demonstrate the long exposure qualities that can be achieved with these backs and where think it's better than film?
Showing an overview and a few crops of critical areas would do, providing a raw file would be even better. This is a recurring subject on the this forum. I'm sure there's a great interest.
-Dominique