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Thread: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

  1. #51
    Senior Member MaxKi▀ler's Avatar
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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Thanks for your replies ondebanks and Sergei. Sadly I don't have the same light conditions here in Berlin as when I came to that "reflections-conclusion". Most of the time it's cloudy and there's not enough light to cause such reflections at all.

    However, I realized that it must have something to do with those reflections mentioned above when I tried to shoot in comparable light conditions. I stood app. 12ft away from the four windows of my living room and did some shots. The foreground was about 4 stops underexposed and when I pulled shadows, I had purple areas in the exact shape of my windows in the dark areas. I don't think this is coincidence.

    IMO there is an explanation why other backs utilizing the same Dalsa sensor don't show these areas:
    They don't have a red filter in front of the sensor.
    They have more than 12 bpc color information (which might be enough to realize that a certain area is not red but that's just guessing).

    ondebanks,

    may I ask what kind of system do you use? Maybe your lenses don't tend to show "lens flare" (due to better coating?).

  2. #52
    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxKi▀ler View Post
    I had purple areas in the exact shape of my windows in the dark areas. I don't think this is coincidence.
    Hi Max,

    That is very interesting! This is the first time I have seen it stated so definitively that the purple blotches match the highlight distribution in the scene. Well, there goes my theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxKi▀ler View Post
    IMO there is an explanation why other backs utilizing the same Dalsa sensor don't show these areas:
    They don't have a red filter in front of the sensor.
    They have more than 12 bpc color information (which might be enough to realize that a certain area is not red but that's just guessing).
    Well, they all use fairly similar IR rejection filters. They would have to, in order to get the same kind of colour response from the sensor. However, some interference filters can lead to more ghosting/reflections than others. See e.g. this Astrodon article

    Trust me, the 12 bits is a red herring. There are loads of 12 bit systems (MFDB + DSLR) and they don't have the same purple blotches problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxKi▀ler View Post
    ondebanks,

    may I ask what kind of system do you use? Maybe your lenses don't tend to show "lens flare" (due to better coating?).
    Other than the different digital back, I use essentially the same system as you - Mamiya 645 AFD with a variety of Mamiya 645 lenses (AF and mostly MF).

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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Well, something is amiss ... even the oldest DB don't do this ... old, uncoated lenses or not ... 12 bit or 16 bit.

    What software are you using and have you investigated the firmware version in the back?

    I recall seeing some odd behavior similar to this from a brand spanking new H4D/60 ... and it turned out the owner was using the wrong firmware for the software version. Instant fix by upgrading to the correct firmware.

    That would be the first place I'd look if nothing more than to eliminate it as the source of the problem.

    One other area to investigate is the power source. The most odd things can happen with any of these DBs, old or new, if the power has any issues at all. These backs are pushing tons of data around and if there's a defect in the battery or power connections it'll show up in all kinds of ways. I had a poor feed from a FW800 cord and it had a bizarre effect on a few images ... new cord, no problems.

    -Marc

  4. #54
    Senior Member MaxKi▀ler's Avatar
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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    The only way to check the firmware version is via a software called "Mamiya Remote Capture". At least that's what I read on pebbleplace.com. I haven't got that software yet. Maybe it's also possible to check via C1.

    Actually I don't tend to underexpose so badly nor do I shoot so many contra-light scenes.

    Anyway: Please take a look at this!

    Attachment 37977Attachment 37978

    Attachment 37979Attachment 37980

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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Its a flare-like effect. Look - its always going around your center.

    You wouldnt happen to have some protective filter on the lens, would you?

  6. #56
    Senior Member MaxKi▀ler's Avatar
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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    No, I'm not using any filters at all.

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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Are these purple blobs always displaced below (above looking at the sensor face) the bright area?
    If so, I will go out on a limb and guess that this may be an a/d converter power supply recovery issue or system noise on vRef. I would assume a bad capacitor or disconnected capacitor or similiar issue.
    In any case it suggests a hardware failure.
    -bob

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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxKi▀ler View Post
    The only way to check the firmware version is via a software called "Mamiya Remote Capture". At least that's what I read on pebbleplace.com. I haven't got that software yet. Maybe it's also possible to check via C1.

    Actually I don't tend to underexpose so badly nor do I shoot so many contra-light scenes.

    Anyway: Please take a look at this!

    Attachment 37977Attachment 37978

    Attachment 37979Attachment 37980
    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    Its a flare-like effect. Look - its always going around your center.

    You wouldnt happen to have some protective filter on the lens, would you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Are these purple blobs always displaced below (above looking at the sensor face) the bright area?
    If so, I will go out on a limb and guess that this may be an a/d converter power supply recovery issue or system noise on vRef. I would assume a bad capacitor or disconnected capacitor or similiar issue.
    In any case it suggests a hardware failure.
    -bob
    The situation is flare like but as Bob has no doubt commented based on - the shape is far too rigid to the subject highlight to be optical flare. Check out the shape of the purple freak-out-area under the light fixture - it's almost perfectly displaced.

  9. #59
    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxKi▀ler View Post
    The only way to check the firmware version is via a software called "Mamiya Remote Capture". At least that's what I read on pebbleplace.com. I haven't got that software yet. Maybe it's also possible to check via C1.

    Actually I don't tend to underexpose so badly nor do I shoot so many contra-light scenes.

    Anyway: Please take a look at this!

    Attachment 37977Attachment 37978

    Attachment 37979Attachment 37980
    Based on your latest photos, the case for an internal reflection is strong alright! There are 5 surfaces in close proximity (sensor surface; front and back of sensor coverglass; front and back of IR rejection filter) so it could be between any two of these.

    Another possibility I was thinking of was CTE (charge transfer efficiency) problems in the sensor, leaving a trail of charges behind during readout which form a weak residual image; but I can't explain why CTE would be colour dependent, so the reflection explanation is the more probable one.

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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    I'm still confused as to why you can't go back to the ebay seller about this.

  11. #61
    Senior Member MaxKi▀ler's Avatar
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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Take a look at the light bulb in the last picture. The purple area which I believe to be a reflection is in the light's emergent angle.

    This image might explain what I mean:

    Attachment 37984

    @Terry
    In Europe you have to abandon your return privileges in order to buy a used item.

  12. #62
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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Wow so in Europe if you buy something on eBay that isn't working as stated in the auction there is no recourse.

  13. #63
    Senior Member MaxKi▀ler's Avatar
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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Well, if you're using Paypal you're on the safe side even if something is defect. In my case, those 60 days of security are over and I haven't noticed the issue before.

    Even if you don't pay via Paypal you can still sue people if a discription was wrong...

  14. #64
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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Ah, I didn't realize you had it so long. I thought you just got it.

  15. #65
    Senior Member MaxKi▀ler's Avatar
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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Yeah, it took me some time to get it all together...

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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Max,

    I've just bought a ZD back (double buffer model) which I'm waiting to receive. When I get it I'll take some shots like yours and see what I get.

    I have the Mamiya 28mm D lens so I'm quite excited to see what results I get on a MFDB as on 120 film it is outstanding.

  17. #67
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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxKi▀ler View Post
    Take a look at the light bulb in the last picture. The purple area which I believe to be a reflection is in the light's emergent angle.

    This image might explain what I mean:

    Attachment 37984

    @Terry
    In Europe you have to abandon your return privileges in order to buy a used item.

    Max

    In my opinion , the light rays you show in your image are wrong . An object you see on the top will be projected to the bottom of the film or sensor .

    Looking at the image with the light source (post #61) i find the magenta "reflection" is a very precise "reflection" and no flare .
    That arises the suspicion , your issue could also be caused by your lens and not by the back .

    Do you have the chance to try an other lens of the same focal length ? ? ?
    Regards . JŘrgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  18. #68
    Senior Member MaxKi▀ler's Avatar
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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    @JŘrgen:
    Oh crap, you're right on both things. I guess I haven't looked thru a lens for some time now. And by saying "lens flare" I actually meant that reflection from the back element of the lens, back towards the sensor. As you said, I also don't think it has something to do with the back, rather with the coating of the lens.

    Sorry my bad (I'm not too familiar with those terms yet)...

    @Sarnia:
    Thanks that would be great. Though I suspect that your output will differ from what I get as the coating of your lens might be much better. I would really appreciate it if you could do this test with an older Mamiya AF lens.

    ---

    I should have made it like this:

    Attachment 37999
    Last edited by MaxKi▀ler; 30th November 2010 at 15:39.

  19. #69
    Senior Member MaxKi▀ler's Avatar
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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Are these purple blobs always displaced below (above looking at the sensor face) the bright area?
    If so, I will go out on a limb and guess that this may be an a/d converter power supply recovery issue or system noise on vRef. I would assume a bad capacitor or disconnected capacitor or similiar issue.
    In any case it suggests a hardware failure.
    -bob
    What makes you think that? I'm just curious...
    These purple blobs are always on the opposite site of the light's source. Since I did several shots of that light bulb I can assure you they happen to be anywhere.

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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxKi▀ler View Post
    What makes you think that? I'm just curious...
    These purple blobs are always on the opposite site of the light's source. Since I did several shots of that light bulb I can assure you they happen to be anywhere.
    If they are always displaced to the same side, then I know of a few failure modes that might cause the problem,
    If the displacement is radial about the lens axis, then it is more likely a rear element or light baffle reflection.
    You might see if it appears the same with a different lens with more or less rear element curvature.
    I was impressed by the sharpness and the size of the secondary image. that implies a reflection from a concave surface I think. A plano reflection would be significantly out of focus I would imagine.
    -bob

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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    What software are you using and have you investigated the firmware version in the back?
    Max,

    Prior to experimental research and speculating... bearing in mind that this is a recorded problem noted by many at the time of the earlier ZDs (both back and camera);

    Best bet to reduce the issue is likely:

    1. Ensure you have latest upgraded firmware.
    2. Use latest Capture One.

    As I stated prior, earlier ZDs had problem with internal processing and hardware design, from what I learnt from confidential source in industry. Thus they were "designed" with the shortcoming or fault built in, a.k.a. the purple problem (note not purple blotches, it is purple "artifacts"). Above 1 and 2 may have "tuned down" that fault, albeit that has not yet been confirmed per what I know. It could even be with later ZDs with dual buffers they did something minor in back to tune down the problem, noone except Mamiya Digital and perhaps Phase One would know...

    Regards
    Anders

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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    I also have a 35mm AF lens so I'll try that too.

    I might be over a week before my ZDb is delivered.

  23. #73
    Senior Member MaxKi▀ler's Avatar
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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Hi guys,

    yesterday I tried a 75-150mm D lens in direct comparison with my old 45mm. I had the same purple reflections in the underexposed parts, BUT they were significiantly less intense (half of what the 45mm produced).

    Sarnia, since you are going to get a ZD Back I can highly recommend you to expose for shadows.
    Shadows shouldn't be more than 2,5 f-stops underexposed or it's likely to get these purple areas in contra-light shots. At least in my case. Maybe your ZDdb has a less reflecting IR-Cut filter...


    Anyway, I guess I just have to live with it and preferably expose for shadows.
    Thank you all for your help and ideas!

    Regards
    Max

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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    The IR filter is user replaceable, so if you can find a dealer you could try a different filter and see if it works better. If so it might be worth buying one. Though I have to say I'd never expect to push shadows 2.5 stops - that's just massively underexposed in my book.

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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    I don't think another filter would be any different and their availability over here is rather limited. At least no dealer seems to have one in stock.

    As I said, I did this whole test only to see what the back is capable of and what it refuses to do... So I totally agree with you that 2 f-stops is way too underexposed.

    However, when I got my first camera I often read it'd be better to expose for the highlights in order to preserve as much details as possible. I still had this in mind when I got the ZD Back. Unfortunately, this doesn't count for this one...

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    Senior Member MaxKi▀ler's Avatar
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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Does anybody know whether Phase One's Digi Clean is safe to use on an exposed CCD? Since the filter of the ZD Back is removable and the CCD itself more likely to catch dust particles I am wondering whether I would damage it by the attempt to clean it. Any ideas?

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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxKi▀ler View Post
    Does anybody know whether Phase One's Digi Clean is safe to use on an exposed CCD? Since the filter of the ZD Back is removable and the CCD itself more likely to catch dust particles I am wondering whether I would damage it by the attempt to clean it. Any ideas?
    My advice would be to contact Phase One directly and ask them.

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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxKi▀ler View Post
    Does anybody know whether Phase One's Digi Clean is safe to use on an exposed CCD? Since the filter of the ZD Back is removable and the CCD itself more likely to catch dust particles I am wondering whether I would damage it by the attempt to clean it. Any ideas?
    I doubt the CCD on ZD is exposed. There must be a protecting glass on it so can clean safe. However, if in doubt ask Mamiya agent.

    Rgds
    Anders

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    Re: Need help with my gear (Phase One + ZD Back)

    Well, I have old ZD back and use it with RZ67 ProIID. I did the tests with shooting into the window and push it up later in post. And yes, I have the purple problem. Here it is:


    But if I have to push more then one stop - I consider the picture ruined and bad exposed. It just need to be deleted. Or converted to BW.

    And I tried to find some real world backlit examples. They were proper exposed and the strange thing is that even after I push them - there is zero problems.







    Last edited by itsskin; 1st January 2011 at 03:59.

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