Pentax 645D vs S2

[etrigan63]

I got to fondle the Pentax 645D at PPE and I have to say that the balance is as good as Hassy or Phase cameras. They currently offer a 55mm digital lens but they also announced a 28mm digital lens at Photokina. The camera I handled was a production model and I was allowed to shoot test shots with my own SD cards. The mechanical actions of body are buttery smooth and I can see myself handholding this camera a lot. Other niceties include an in-viewfinder spirit level (very useful for me as I am beginning to think my eyes are crooked) 11-point AF and compatibility with a wide range of DSLR accessories.

The viewfinder is very bright and the eyecup worked well even with my glasses on. I am working hard to get one in for review, but availability is scarce (for now).

Here are some sample shots that I took at the booth. I have not had time to really play around with them to get the look perfect, but they show impressive amounts of detail and DR.


Sample Shot #1 from 645D by Carlos Echenique, on Flickr


Sample Shot #2 from 645D by Carlos Echenique, on Flickr

Both were shot handheld with the 55mm lens.

 

[surfotog]

The upcoming WA for the 645D is actually a 25/4 according to Ned Bunnell of Pentax USA. He says it will be available early 2011.

 

[bensonga]

Let's hope that within a few years, the lineup of lenses available in the USA for the 645D will be as extensive as this.....whether newly designed specifically for the 645D or re-issued FA series (many of which are thought to be quite good).

Gary

 

[etrigan63]

The upcoming WA for the 645D is actually a 25/4 according to Ned Bunnell of Pentax USA. He says it will be available early 2011.

Quite right. I fat-fingered the focal length.

 

[alba63]

Has any of you guys handled both the S2 and the Pentax 645D and could comment on size of bodies?
I find the thought of a more "compact" MF camera appealing.
Is the S2 + lens more compact than the 645D?

While I haven't handled the Leica, I have seen photos and a video from someone holding it in his hands, and yesterday I was in a berlin photo store who had a 645D presentation, where I could go outside and take a few frames. To me it is clear: The Pentax is quite bulky, no comparision with a DSLR- style camera like let's say a Mamiya ZD SLR. Weight is ok, the lens attached was the new 55mm AF lens, it was as big as a normal 645 AF lens. So i am quite sure the Leica is smaller. The Pentax rep told me that 645d is available from January 2011 for a "kit" price (with 55mm lens) of 12.000 Euro. Quite steep, I personally am not interested, however the smaller DSLRs like the new K5 are quite neat with an apparently impressive DR at base ISO that exceeds what MF backs can deliver (like the Nikon d7k).
As the light was already quite low I just did 1 shot with ISO200 (= base ISO) and then ISO400 and 800. At ISO800 there was quite some noise in the dng files.

Not an in-depth impression I can give, just some basic facts. Of course the S2pro with 2 or 3 lenses will be a lot more expensive!

regards
Bernhard

 

[Shelby Lewis]

well... even though the S2 doesn't have the look associated with great M glass, i do find the glass to have something special in it's rendering from the samples i've seen. It's not the special "m"-oomph I was looking for, but it is cream of the crop imo.

The pentax bugs me and intrigues me at the same time. I'm a HUGE pentax fan, and I think it'll be a game changer from a feature/price combination. The IQ seems nice as well... but it just ends there for me so far from what I've seen. Nice. I really would like to try it in person.

I can't wait for there to be more samples available because the pentax seems to have revved-up dslr IQ to me. It's visibly better than dslr, for sure, which is great.... but still not convinced. Definitely not "$10K convinced" given the amount of quality second hand gear on the market.

There I said it... IMO the pentax ain't cheap either. On paper it seems a bargain, but $10K plus lenses and accessories is a lot of money for a camera, no matter how you slice it. It is a lot of camera performance wise though, for that price, given many of the used MF equivalents.

The S2 does have something special, it's just not the classic leica look. From that side of things, I don't think there is a winner... just preferences. In an IQ battle, I'd side with the S2. But that's just my pref.

 

[ptomsu]

well... even though the S2 doesn't have the look associated with great M glass, i do find the glass to have something special in it's rendering from the samples i've seen. It's not the special "m"-oomph I was looking for, but it is cream of the crop imo.

The pentax bugs me and intrigues me at the same time. I'm a HUGE pentax fan, and I think it'll be a game changer from a feature/price combination. The IQ seems nice as well... but it just ends there for me so far from what I've seen. Nice. I really would like to try it in person.

I can't wait for there to be more samples available because the pentax seems to have revved-up dslr IQ to me. It's visibly better than dslr, for sure, which is great.... but still not convinced. Definitely not "$10K convinced" given the amount of quality second hand gear on the market.

There I said it... IMO the pentax ain't cheap either. On paper it seems a bargain, but $10K plus lenses and accessories is a lot of money for a camera, no matter how you slice it. It is a lot of camera performance wise though, for that price, given many of the used MF equivalents.

The S2 does have something special, it's just not the classic leica look. From that side of things, I don't think there is a winner... just preferences. In an IQ battle, I'd side with the S2. But that's just my pref.

Right, preferences is what largely remains, but preferences are the most important thing in buying decisions - would you agree?

A 645D with 3 lenses should be available for less than 20k$, while for a S2 you will end up around 35k$ - or in a similar relation anyway. If preference is the cheapest system (cheap is of course relative) then the 645D will be very interesting and you will not care as much about S2 look and feel and other hully gully ....

If your preference is the look of images you would have maybe different possibilities for decision and so on .......

 

[Shelby Lewis]

Right, preferences is what largely remains, but preferences are the most important thing in buying decisions - would you agree?

Completely the point of my post... along with the fact that a camera costing more than $12K, probably closer to $15K or $20K (after lenses and all) just STILL isn't cheap. $20K gets you a new h4D-31 kit plus an extra few lenses... or a similar Phase product...

So, IQ becomes more of a deciding personal pref for me than feature set or price (since I can't afford any of them :ROTFL... and that's where the Pentax still doesn't shine for me (as of now). Again, my pref.

All that aside, the original post was between the s2 and 645D, and I side with the S2 on this one as far as IQ and body-style (albeit with somewhat less experience than many here on this forum).

"Hully Gully"... love that phrase.

 

[etrigan63]

Shelby,
you are quite correct in your assessment. None of these systems are "cheap" and a considerable amount of research and testing needs to be done before one decides to commit to any system. Any camera you use, amateur or professional, needs to work with you, not the other way around.

How does the body feel in your hand? My sister has complained to me that the Olympus E-PL1 (quite possible the smallest, lightest interchangeable lens digital camera on the market today) felt heavy and unbalanced to her. OTOH, I have a hard time not covering up something important on it with my big mitts.

Do the lens choices fit your shooting style? Studio shooters have different lens requirements than outdoor shooters. Does the range of lenses offered meet your needs?

How well does the camera integrate into your existing workflow? If you have a method that works, does the camera force you to greatly modify what you are doing? Can your workflow be adapted or will you have to adopt a workflow for one type of camera and a different one for the other? This assumes that you have not centralized on a single MFD systems and have abandoned other camera systems. (Some folks like to dive into the deep end first.)

Are the files worthy? No amount of money will help you if the files produced by the camera are not what you need (not up to snuff). if the files cause you more work instead of less, then think twice about said camera system. I switched from Canon to Nikon because the files produced greatly shortened my workflow due to much less post-processing required.

The Pentax pricing, while not cheap, is a big step in the right direction. If the MFD makers want more market penetration, they have to stop catering to the affluent photographers (there are fewer of those every day) and start thinking in terms of the economies of the second decade of the 21st century.

 

[Shelby Lewis]

Are the files worthy? No amount of money will help you if the files produced by the camera are not what you need (not up to snuff). if the files cause you more work instead of less, then think twice about said camera system. I switched from Canon to Nikon because the files produced greatly shortened my workflow due to much less post-processing required.

And this ties SSSOOOO integrally to how you shoot. I found that if I decide I'm going to shoot MF in the same fashion that I'm going to shoot 35mm... then I need a body/back that has low mirror slap and decent higher (400-800) ISO... otherwise those great files are ruined by technically imperfect shooting (camera shake) due to not being able to use a high enough iso to get the shutter speeds up... regardless of which system I choose.

So... my decision currently is to let my canons do the hand holding (mostly) and go to a slow methodical RZ67, mostly on a tripod, for ultimate file quality. With that decision made, then the sensor "signature" becomes a more over-riding factor in my choice, not it's abilities at higher iso (so I can have higher shutter speeds).

Between the 645D and the s2 (arguably two of the more hand-holdable systems in mf-land), that decision is taken care of, somewhat, by the design of the system even though I see clear evidence of camera shake in bunches of the online 645D samples, and Marc spoke a long time back about the S2 still needing great technique due to it's resolving powers (camera shake still evident if you're not careful)... so then it seems that sensor/lense "look" come back into play as do individual prefs for ergonomics.

SSSOOOO many variables.

Great discussion, though.

 

[Bill_Green]

The pentax bugs me and intrigues me at the same time. I'm a HUGE pentax fan, and I think it'll be a game changer from a feature/price combination. The IQ seems nice as well... but it just ends there for me so far from what I've seen. ... the pentax seems to have revved-up dslr IQ to me. It's visibly better than dslr, for sure, which is great.... but still not convinced. Definitely not "$10K convinced" given the amount of quality second hand gear on the market.

+1 to all that Shelby. I have been dreaming about about a digital Pentax 645 for years, and from a form and feature standpoint I really think they nailed all that I wanted. But, and it's a big BUT, the image quality that I have seen in the posted shots really doesn't excite me much. Sure the resolution is there, but the color depth is not. And while $10,000 is a great value for a new medium format camera, it is still a lot of money.

 

[ptomsu]

And this ties SSSOOOO integrally to how you shoot. I found that if I decide I'm going to shoot MF in the same fashion that I'm going to shoot 35mm... then I need a body/back that has low mirror slap and decent higher (400-800) ISO... otherwise those great files are ruined by technically imperfect shooting (camera shake) due to not being able to use a high enough iso to get the shutter speeds up... regardless of which system I choose.

So... my decision currently is to let my canons do the hand holding (mostly) and go to a slow methodical RZ67, mostly on a tripod, for ultimate file quality. With that decision made, then the sensor "signature" becomes a more over-riding factor in my choice, not it's abilities at higher iso (so I can have higher shutter speeds).

Between the 645D and the s2 (arguably two of the more hand-holdable systems in mf-land), that decision is taken care of, somewhat, by the design of the system even though I see clear evidence of camera shake in bunches of the online 645D samples, and Marc spoke a long time back about the S2 still needing great technique due to it's resolving powers (camera shake still evident if you're not careful)... so then it seems that sensor/lense "look" come back into play as do individual prefs for ergonomics.

SSSOOOO many variables.

Great discussion, though.

If you want a MF camera with very well controlled mirror slap then the H system is a great answer. You can adjust in many steps the mirror pre release, and I found for my applications of handheld shooting the 50ms (or 100ms) are just perfect. I could not complain about a single shoot not being sharp because of mirror slap

 

[ptomsu]

+1 to all that Shelby. I have been dreaming about about a digital Pentax 645 for years, and from a form and feature standpoint I really think they nailed all that I wanted. But, and it's a big BUT, the image quality that I have seen in the posted shots really doesn't excite me much. Sure the resolution is there, but the color depth is not. And while $10,000 is a great value for a new medium format camera, it is still a lot of money.

Well,

then the H4D31 or H4D40 are the perfect answer for you

 

[Shelby Lewis]

If you want a MF camera with very well controlled mirror slap then the H system is a great answer. You can adjust in many steps the mirror pre release, and I found for my applications of handheld shooting the 50ms (or 100ms) are just perfect. I could not complain about a single shoot not being sharp because of mirror slap

Ah yes... but then the price is the big gotcha for me, lol! If I had $20-$25K right now, I'd buy an h4d-40 today along with the 80, 100/2.2, and one semi-wide. But, alas.

I have looked at a pre-owned h3dii-22... still is on my list... just so I can use those great HC lenses (especially the 100/2.2)

As it is... RZ67IID and a nice, lower res back for careful work is what I'm going for. I'm not shooting kids and weddings any more, so hand holding is only needed when shooting musical events and my own family. The 5DII works just great for that stuff.

Sorry to take this thread so off-topic....

 

[KeithL]

I have looked at a pre-owned h3dii-22... still is on my list... just so I can use those great HC lenses (especially the 100/2.2)

You'll be lucky to find one!

 

[fotografz]

The true be told, most any of these 30+ meg systems are so close in IQ that it's hair splitting at it finest ... magnified by marketing hype and purchase justifications. Yes, incremental improvements are there for the taking ... just cough up a King's Ransom + sell your blood and important body parts.

A camera like the S2 offers an obviously different form factor primarily based on familiarity and ease of migration from 35mm DSLR form factor to a MFD with a similar user experience. The aspect of hand-holding is the primary criteria of that form factor migration ... on a tripod the difference evaporates. As stated, hand-holding presents a whole other level of issues with any MFD system regardless of form factor.

Lens draw, and emotional impact are becoming more over-looked as the criteria becomes more and more analytical and clinical in nature ... IMO mostly because it can be proved with charts, graphs and pixel peeping to the 4th power ... primarily for marketing purposes and purchase justification. No lens maker would dare make "artistic" lenses these days ... like the flawed, but delicious Zeiss 110/2FE. We have no one to blame for this except ourselves.

Shelby, what comes to mind is the masterful use you made of the lowly Siggy 50/1.4 on your A900 ... with all it's warts and resulting emotionally powerful images. If Sigma ever made identical optic characteristics for my MFD I'd get in line for it ... as it is the 100/2.2 has to be it for my MFD system and 75/1.4 for the M system.

I think you'd be stunned at the IQ from a lumbering RZ and an older Aptus 75 (not even the s version) ... and every lens made for it (including the clinically precise APOs) could be had for the price of one S2 lens ... or less ... :ROTFL:

-Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

In a word "character"

I agree with Marc it's our own fault. The pixel peeping charts this is better than that junk is meaningless. Some of us just want to shoot NICE images. I love my Phase kit no question but as soon as the Schneiders came out I jumped all over them. Look is what I want, it's what separates us from the mundane.

 

[jonoslack]

In a word "character"

I agree with Marc it's our own fault. The pixel peeping charts this is better than that junk is meaningless. Some of us just want to shoot NICE images.

Absolutely - too true. I'm in a different league, but currently exploring the limiteds and the Zeiss ZK lenses on the Pentax K5 - they don't win MTF competitions, but they're NICE - nice to use, nicely made, and produce nice images.

 

[Uaiomex]

Let's not forget because of the different nature of each company, the Pentax glass will certainly be improved substantially, while the Leica lens line will remain about the same for many years.
Eduardo

While it may seem the case, I have to say that way back in film days I shot the Pentax 645 for a little bit -- the glass was impressively good. Of course a digital sensor inspection to the corners may reveal more warts than I could discern on film.

 

[Shelby Lewis]

Shelby, what comes to mind is the masterful use you made of the lowly Siggy 50/1.4 on your A900 ... with all it's warts and resulting emotionally powerful images.

{snip}

I think you'd be stunned at the IQ from a lumbering RZ and an older Aptus 75 (not even the s version) ... and every lens made for it (including the clinically precise APOs) could be had for the price of one S2 lens ... or less ... :ROTFL:

-Marc

Why thank you, Marc. :salute:

You describe exactly what I'm after at this point in my life... compelling images. This is why I don't, so far, get all jazzed about the 645D (or the S2 for that matter). Lack of special-ness in much of what I see (not all!).

One of the older combos I've seen images from that seem especially nice is the aptus-22/RZ combo (and by extension, the 75, I'd guess). Just a real synergy there. I'm sure time will come very soon when more character-laden 645D and s2 images will be more common. Don't get me wrong, I've seen good stuff out of both...

We have it so good these days to even be having this discussion. :thumbs:

Guy... totally agree!