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Pentax 645D vs S2

Paratom

Well-known member
Has any of you guys handled both the S2 and the Pentax 645D and could comment on size of bodies?
I find the thought of a more "compact" MF camera appealing.
Is the S2 + lens more compact than the 645D?

Lenses: I feel the difference in lens quality for 35mm lenses between different brands is bigger than that of the lens quality of different MF-systems.
Would you share this opinion or do you S2 users see anything in the Leica S2 lenses which you do not see in MF lenses from other brands?
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
With respect to the glass, I fear that this could be the optical equivalent of bringing along a knife to a gun fight ... :ROTFL:
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
While it may seem the case, I have to say that way back in film days I shot the Pentax 645 for a little bit -- the glass was impressively good. Of course a digital sensor inspection to the corners may reveal more warts than I could discern on film. ;)
 

bensonga

Well-known member
I haven't heard of many "Wow!" reactions to the optical characteristics of Leica's S2 lenses, but maybe I missed them.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Have no experience with the 645D, only can say that the IQ from the S2 test shots (of course with Leica glass) is really stunning and eye opening. Will Pentax glass hold up or even be better?

I think the differences will be marginal again and if counting in the price difference then the 645D should be the CLEAR winner.

But there is always the red dot and the belief that Leica is better - sometimes they even are, this is the tricky thing and it is hard to know when.

In terms of design and look of the camera there is the clear winner already - S2!
 

bensonga

Well-known member
I own a Leica (R8) and six R lenses....so I'm speaking as one of the converted. Always dreamed of owning a Leica....glad I finally could afford it (used). But I can't afford (and probably wouldn't spend the money on it if I could) a new M9 or new M series glass ($$$$), not to mention an S2 system. I guess my comment was more about that special "Leica look" which has always attracted people to Leica lenses.

My recollection is that many folks who initially tried the S2 felt that special Leica look was missing from the S2 lenses. Just my impressions from posts I followed for a few months after the S2 became available.

Value for $$, it's hard to beat the 645D. The Pentax glass was always pretty darn good (I know my P67 lenses never let me down, but that's just MHO). Not the best perhaps, but very good. I hope that when Pentax releases more lenses specifically designed for the 645D, these will be even better than the older Pentax glass.

As to whether German glass is superior to Japanese glass.....well, I think there are many folks who believe the Hasselblad H-series lenses made by Fuji are, for all practical purposes, the equal of Zeiss and Leica lenses. I know, I know....to some folks, that's a comment bordering on heresy.

Gary
 
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ptomsu

Workshop Member
Shooting the H lenses myself I must say that I like them even more than Leica lenses - especially when used with Phocus. Beautiful colors, rendering OOF, shallow DOF (even larger sensor than S2) tack sharp where you focus, almost no CA and flare etc. etc.

All the new Leica glass - for M as well as for S - seems to be perfect, but it is made SO PERFECT, that some may feel that they lack typical looks they are used to from former (pre digital) times, when lenses - even Leica lenses - had more flaws. I think that all this discussion about look, boukeh etc becomes pretty academical today given the really small differences.

Coming back to 645D and price - I must say for this price tag I would have not hesitated a minute to buy one instead my H3D39 if it would have been available last year. I might even rethink and get out of the H system in order to start over with the 645D and some zooms as this system seems to me very good. And I am almost sure that for the current pricing of the S2 and lenses I will not be happy to spend this amount of money.

Time will tell.
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
Regarding compactness ... search out Guy and Jack's initial review of the S2, and the size comparison to the Phase camera. If I recall correctly, when comparing body + lens as you mentioned, there was less difference than one would suspect. Obviously, the handling is different with the S2 .... which is its appeal to some folks.

One thing that'll be lighter and easier to carry for absolute sure is your wallet after purchasing the S2 kit over the Pentax. :rolleyes:

Lenses are all in the eye of the beholder ... depending on what an individual wants/desires/needs. Being a lifelong Leica nut-case, I had expected something different from the S2 optics. Where it is one of the driving reasons many bought into the S2, it is one of the reasons I did not. To clinical and lacking in character, even compared to the more contemporary ASPH M glass. I shoot primarily people, where others have different priorities.

The other barrier I couldn't quite get over was the inability to use the back on a tech or view camera with full movements ... with lenses that provide the undisputed best IQ over any MFD system including Leica. This barrier would also apply to the Pentax ... but at the price difference, one could secure a separate DB for a tech camera ... like a P45+ for the added long exposure ability.

-Marc
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Marc,
I have to agree that the few images I saw from the S2 on the net and also some in the LFI-magazine appeared to be bitingly sharp and somewhat clinical look.
From first impression I would prefer what I get from my 80 Schneider or 110 Zeiss. Also I once had tried the Mamiya 150 when I had a Mamiya ZD and that lens was fine for my taste too.
I would really be interested to see side by side comparison between a Leica 120mm image and the Pentax 120mm or 150mm, or between the Leica 70mm and the Pentax 75mm.

With the body I am not sure. On one side I find the simplicity of the S2-design great (coming from Leica M) - on the other side the posibility to access several functions directly (Pentax 645D) without having to go into the menue could make the use of such a camera faster and more DSLR like.



Regarding compactness ... search out Guy and Jack's initial review of the S2, and the size comparison to the Phase camera. If I recall correctly, when comparing body + lens as you mentioned, there was less difference than one would suspect. Obviously, the handling is different with the S2 .... which is its appeal to some folks.

One thing that'll be lighter and easier to carry for absolute sure is your wallet after purchasing the S2 kit over the Pentax. :rolleyes:

Lenses are all in the eye of the beholder ... depending on what an individual wants/desires/needs. Being a lifelong Leica nut-case, I had expected something different from the S2 optics. Where it is one of the driving reasons many bought into the S2, it is one of the reasons I did not. To clinical and lacking in character, even compared to the more contemporary ASPH M glass. I shoot primarily people, where others have different priorities.

The other barrier I couldn't quite get over was the inability to use the back on a tech or view camera with full movements ... with lenses that provide the undisputed best IQ over any MFD system including Leica. This barrier would also apply to the Pentax ... but at the price difference, one could secure a separate DB for a tech camera ... like a P45+ for the added long exposure ability.

-Marc
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Regarding compactness ... search out Guy and Jack's initial review of the S2, and the size comparison to the Phase camera. If I recall correctly, when comparing body + lens as you mentioned, there was less difference than one would suspect. Obviously, the handling is different with the S2 .... which is its appeal to some folks.

One thing that'll be lighter and easier to carry for absolute sure is your wallet after purchasing the S2 kit over the Pentax. :rolleyes:

Lenses are all in the eye of the beholder ... depending on what an individual wants/desires/needs. Being a lifelong Leica nut-case, I had expected something different from the S2 optics. Where it is one of the driving reasons many bought into the S2, it is one of the reasons I did not. To clinical and lacking in character, even compared to the more contemporary ASPH M glass. I shoot primarily people, where others have different priorities.

The other barrier I couldn't quite get over was the inability to use the back on a tech or view camera with full movements ... with lenses that provide the undisputed best IQ over any MFD system including Leica. This barrier would also apply to the Pentax ... but at the price difference, one could secure a separate DB for a tech camera ... like a P45+ for the added long exposure ability.

-Marc
Marc,

fully agree - especially WRT separate back like P45+ or P65+ together with a tech camera, if you spare as much money buying the 645D.

Had a closer look into the Pentax lineup - K5 and 645D - and I must say I am getting impressed. Even start rethinking my complete lineup as a K5 could replace my DSLR (D700), the 645 my H system (cheaper and maybe same quality - quod erat demonstrandum) and if I really need then a separate back for tech camera.

I think this way I would not bind more money as I have today, but allow for relatively cheap MF upgrades as the next generation 645D-II would appear.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc,
I have to agree that the few images I saw from the S2 on the net and also some in the LFI-magazine appeared to be bitingly sharp and somewhat clinical look.
From first impression I would prefer what I get from my 80 Schneider or 110 Zeiss. Also I once had tried the Mamiya 150 when I had a Mamiya ZD and that lens was fine for my taste too.
I would really be interested to see side by side comparison between a Leica 120mm image and the Pentax 120mm or 150mm, or between the Leica 70mm and the Pentax 75mm.

With the body I am not sure. On one side I find the simplicity of the S2-design great (coming from Leica M) - on the other side the posibility to access several functions directly (Pentax 645D) without having to go into the menue could make the use of such a camera faster and more DSLR like.
I think you'd benefit from a hands on with both cameras. I am suspicious of the Pentax viewfinder with that little peep-hole eye piece. The S2 is pretty nice in that area. On the other hand, some of the ergonomics of the Pentax are very well thought out ... right down to the dual mounting plates on bottom/side.

I'd also suspect the Leica S2 will smoke many other 120 Macros for pure clinical sharpness usually so desirable with macro work ... compared to more aged lenses. However, that's changed recently with Phase and Hassey. Still haven't seen a 120 Macro to equal the Zeiss Contax 120/4 for a balance between clarity and character. But then, I haven't tried the newer 120 Macros.

The Zeiss 110/2 is the "Character King" no doubt ... but that lens can be used on most any focal plane shutter camera. The closest thing to it for my H4D is the 100/2.2. Close, but no cigar ;)

-Marc
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
Having spent a little time lately with the Hasselblad H4D-50 (a week is certainly not enough time to form a complete evaluation but it is what it is) I have to say that I really liked the color and sharpness I was seeing from that sensor and the few Hasselblad lenses I had access to. The images seemed alive ... if that makes any sense. It's probably not relevant to the current discussion, but I found it interesting. Just a bit less size and weight and I would've been able to take the camera anywhere with a handstrap. For me, it was a narrow miss especially since it also offers a single power source. As I didn't have to worry about the tech camera proposition, an integrated sensor and body made more sense for me. True Focus is an amazing technology if you do a lot of focusing and recomposing ... which I do. Hopefully, other manufacturers will develop some kind of version that is similar.
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I guess i will address this. Not sure of the Pentax glass myself but they do have a long history of being very good and I did shoot the 6x7 for a time being but obviously with film. Now I have handled and shot the S2 glass along with Phase glass in our review and I think I said the first day it was announced many moons ago is the Leica glass may just lack character compared to lets say a 80 R lux lens and as it turns out I was right. The S2 glass is very good but it is also somewhat clinical in look and in all honestly not any better than some of my Phase lenses in IQ. Yes the build is extremely nice and solid as a rock. Leica is very well known for quality build not lacking in the S2 for sure. They are heavier and bigger than the Phase lenses in same focal lengths but the body makes up for it in being lighter so total weight I think was maybe a touch in favor of the Leica but by a very small margin. Regardless leica lenses where never light weight either in all there lines M, R and S are all heavy glass which also makes it a solid build so nothing really negative here on that, if anything more positive because the are very smooth and built like a tank. Now my 80 was just as equal to the S 70 and the 180 S was equal to the 150D so no gain here and like Hassy some Phase lenses have character in them like the new LS glass I really love. If you where to classify the S lenses in a group I would put it in the more clinical group. They are very very sharp and more like the Summarit/Summricon class in M and R but maybe what some of us wanted was more Lux looking which they are not IMHO. Leica in my view set out to build very sharp glass from wide aperture down the scale. They did that and if it has a edge anywhere it would be more in the wide open area. Which most of us know that is Leica's trait even in the M and R class.

So end of day when compared with Phase and Hassy the S2 does very well indeed if in some area's above them. The ergos are really what you most likely are buying when it comes to the S2. Glass wise maybe in some cases better but most likely on the wide open side. As one that spent some good time with it let me say i would not sell my Phase for the S2 because of the glass but more the ergo's but knowing i would not lose any quality in the process. So yes would I like to switch over it's a yes and a no. My no has more to do with maturity in system than anything else, not to mention coming up with a lot of cash. LOL

How they will fair against the Pentax will be interesting but we need to remember above all else this is MF not 35mm and lenses here are important no doubt to end IQ. It is not the same as 35mm as your really trying very hard to squeeze every drop out of the glass for IQ. MF you really don't have that much of a worry since the sensor is so big right from the get go it is not a major are of concern like 35mm, at least that is what I figured out after spending a good amount of time in MF. Even some cheap old Mamiya lenses still produce great images quality. Now maybe not as good as the D series or the S lenses but the difference is minimal compared to 35mm.

Honestly not sure i would sweat it here with the Pentax as it seems to be very good from what we have seen so far. It will never be a Mature Phase system nor will it ever be a built like a rock S2 system but it just may prove to be very good as it is. The bottom line to me is your here in MF land the rules just changed and for the better.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
One thing which makes sense as well is the multi point AF in the Pentax which one could use instead of focus-recompose-technique.
Hasselblad has developed true-focus as a solution but how do we handle this (problem?) with phase/S2/Hy6? (I do with manual focus)
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
One thing which makes sense as well is the multi point AF in the Pentax which one could use instead of focus-recompose-technique.
Hasselblad has developed true-focus as a solution but how do we handle this (problem?) with phase/S2/Hy6? (I do with manual focus)
I was thinking that as well, but actually the area of the Pentax AF points is limited to a pretty small area, which definitely does NOT cover the usual 2/3 rule composition - if you like to follow that somehow. What that means, you still need to recompose even if you use the outer AF points of the 645D.

I think the issue is that the AF was designed for the APSC Pentax bodies, where it pretty nicely covers the necessary areas of the frame so you do not need to recompose.

But this would (could) have been a killer feature of the 645D.
 

bensonga

Well-known member
I think the big uncertainty with the Pentax is.....how soon will they be releasing new lenses and how extensive will the new lineup be? From what I've read, the current lineup of FA (autofocus) P645 lenses are not available for sale new in the USA, so other than the new 55mm lens designed for the 645D, a 645D buyer is limited to purchasing used 645 A/FA series or P67 lenses. Early adopters of the 645D are most likely to come from existing 645 and 67 owners, who already have a collection of lenses that can be put to good use.

I'm hopeful that Pentax will follow thru with a nice lineup of digital spec glass for the 645D. They certainly have shown an ability and willingness to build some nice prime lenses for their 35mm digital line of cameras.....and they've got a long history in 6x7 and 645 lenses to build upon.

Gary
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I think the big uncertainty with the Pentax is.....how soon will they be releasing new lenses and how extensive will the new lineup be? From what I've read, the current lineup of FA (autofocus) P645 lenses are not available for sale new in the USA, so other than the new 55mm lens designed for the 645D, a 645D buyer is limited to purchasing used 645 A/FA series or P67 lenses. Early adopters of the 645D are most likely to come from existing 645 and 67 owners, who already have a collection of lenses that can be put to good use.

I'm hopeful that Pentax will follow thru with a nice lineup of digital spec glass for the 645D. They certainly have shown an ability and willingness to build some nice prime lenses for their 35mm digital line of cameras.....and they've got a long history in 6x7 and 645 lenses to build upon.

Gary
This is one of the questions. From the initial design to the final mass release of a lens typically takes 18-30 months. I have zero inside knowledge one way or the other as to whether or not more lenses were started well before the release of the body.

Typically this is where we (as a medium format dealer) would have some knowledge for direct public release or at least reassuring hints - but with Pentax there just isn't that network in the US (at least that we are privvy to).
:cry:

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Paratom

Well-known member
the question is: is it faster to get a new Leica lens or to find a used Pentax lens (for 1/10 of the money)

but I really agree that Pentax should have offered at least 3 new lenses with the release of the 635d, maybe the 55, a wide angle and a 150?/120
 

Paratom

Well-known member
by the way, in Germany there are several online stores which offer new Pentax lenses for the 645 system
 
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