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Thread: P80

  1. #1
    Member Harry's Avatar
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    P80

    It's only a matter of time.......When do you think the P80 will be announced?

  2. #2
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    Re: P80

    I think it will be the P85+ and it will probably be announced before the H4D80

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    Re: P80

    before i will be able to buy it !

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    Re: P80

    Well, before the H4D80 should not be difficult given the history of the last years - I myself being a Hasselblad photographer stating that

    Anyway I also think it will be called P85+ and I would assume that it will be announced at PMA 2011 - at least what my crystal ball tells me

    No matter when it is announced I will not be able to afford it too - rather then a P65+, which should become cheaper

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    Re: P80

    I just hope it's more than a simple mp upgrade ... improved display and some other features would be nice.
    wayne
    My gallery

  6. #6
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    Re: P80

    It would be nice if Phase merged the aptus and p+ product lines so that we'd have the best of both worlds (leaf: touchscreen/rotating sensor phase: passive cooling/build quality/long exposures)in one product but with the announcement of the new leaf back it doesn't appear like that is going to happen.

  7. #7
    Member Harry's Avatar
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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    I just hope it's more than a simple mp upgrade ... improved display and some other features would be nice.
    Hoping that is the reason for the Leaf release being first.

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    Re: P80

    Ill upgrade my H4D-40 when they bring an 80 out should be couple years or so?
    www.williamophuis.com

    Hassy H4D-40.

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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Ophuis View Post
    Ill upgrade my H4D-40 when they bring an 80 out should be couple years or so?
    Who knows what or when. Hassey seems to have been concentrating on other stuff like the HTS, True Focus, new lens replacements for the 150, 50, and 120, battery application for the H4D/60, new firmware to implement the higher res LCD on the 60, and the current 200 meg Multi-Shot module project for the H4D/50-MS. Only so many bodies and resources ... (although they could have skipped any effort on the red H4D IMO). Personally, I prefer a resource focus on useful real-world features over more and more pixels.

    Still debating the 60 verses the 50 Multi-Shot, but I think I'm in the same mind set as you ... skip the 60 and see what happens in the next year or two. No hurry, business still sucks in my area ... and my current CF/39 Multi-shot is more than enough for any current client need (I shoot a lot of "unglamorous" fabric samples for GM to pay the rent).

    What I really wish for is a CF-II/50 Multi-Shot. Since the CFV/50 was announced, I've rekindled those hopes ... but still seriously doubt it'll happen ... which is a crying shame.

    -Marc

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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Ophuis View Post
    Ill upgrade my H4D-40 when they bring an 80 out should be couple years or so?

    You sure about that? Your current 40 has a 4minute max exposure with great results.

    I have never seen a Dalsa do more than 32 seconds and we are not even discussing how it looks like.

    I am in the same boat and still wondering whether I want the H4D50MS or the H4D60. Pro's and con's for both.

    Business has been excellent this year but who knows when that will end..

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    Re: P80

    P80 would be a more accurate name, just like it should have been P60 - kind of false advertising don't you think?

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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    You sure about that? Your current 40 has a 4minute max exposure with great results.

    I have never seen a Dalsa do more than 32 seconds and we are not even discussing how it looks like.

    I am in the same boat and still wondering whether I want the H4D50MS or the H4D60. Pro's and con's for both.

    Business has been excellent this year but who knows when that will end..
    Obviously you aren't in the Detroit area ... and if you are, can I come work for you ...

    -Marc

  13. #13
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    Re: P80

    Marc,
    I've done more than 30 seconds with a P40+ Here is a one minute exposure....skip the content but technically it didn't have a noise issue

    Attachment 37982

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: P80

    This one is really great Terry!

    Interesting how narrow vendors specify the usage boundaries of their gear, for me this image is also technically full ok.

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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Woodland View Post
    P80 would be a more accurate name, just like it should have been P60 - kind of false advertising don't you think?
    Just think of it this way:
    P#0 or P#1 means smaller sensor
    P#5 means larger sensor

    See for instance the smaller sensor P30 which is actually 31.6 megapixels (not very good false advertising!)

    I'd be just as happy if they used the megapixel number, but phase has been producing digital backs for a long time and in the early days of digital photographers thought in MB of TIFF file size (from film scans) rather than megapixels.

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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Marc,
    I've done more than 30 seconds with a P40+ Here is a one minute exposure....skip the content but technically it didn't have a noise issue

    Attachment 37982

    It wasn't Marc that made that remark but me. You are right. The microlens equipped P40 does 60sec's and carries a Dalsa. Kind of hard to assess how the noise behaviour in your image is but I trust it when you say it is good.

    Still 60s is a long way from the Kodaks (P+'s and even H4D40).

    Sure there is always the exception to the rule However I would not keep my breath for a Dalsa equipped back that delivers good long exposures

  17. #17
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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Obviously you aren't in the Detroit area ... and if you are, can I come work for you ...

    -Marc
    Nope, the Netherlands are a long way off from Detroit . I have heard it is (or has been) pretty bad in your area. Over here the atmosphere is sometimes a bit grim. Not everyone is doing well. Not sure why I did last year, not complaining here anyway. I am simply trying to keep a low profile, clinch my buttocks together and praise the fact I did well and hope this will continue until business starts picking up everywhere.

  18. #18
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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    It wasn't Marc that made that remark but me. You are right. The microlens equipped P40 does 60sec's and carries a Dalsa. Kind of hard to assess how the noise behaviour in your image is but I trust it when you say it is good.

    Still 60s is a long way from the Kodaks (P+'s and even H4D40).

    Sure there is always the exception to the rule However I would not keep my breath for a Dalsa equipped back that delivers good long exposures
    P40 + does not have micro lenses and I have gone a full minute just around the corner where Terry shot with excellent results . Can it go longer not sure it was cold out and it probably could have went 2 minutes. Hard to say

    This one was 30 seconds and I did go 60 seconds same shot and looks identical

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    Nope, the Netherlands are a long way off from Detroit . I have heard it is (or has been) pretty bad in your area. Over here the atmosphere is sometimes a bit grim. Not everyone is doing well. Not sure why I did last year, not complaining here anyway. I am simply trying to keep a low profile, clinch my buttocks together and praise the fact I did well and hope this will continue until business starts picking up everywhere.

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    Re: P80

    Ah, the speculation! Gives me the giggles when I hear the speculation about a Blad 80Mp. It's almost 2 years since they "announced" the H4d60 and they are only now delivering a small trickle of cameras. I'm very glad to have been a Phase user since the H5.
    Re the long exposure issue, I think the whole debate is a beatup. Yes, the P65+ gets noisy when you go over 60 sec and it gets worse as you shoot consecutive frames. In cool weather this does not happen. The last time I had issues with it, I was shooting 65sec exposures in 50degC weather in the Arabian desert. We've since started applying ice packs to the back on the rare occasion we expose this long. Problem gone. Lets be clear about this - under 60sec I have never seen the allegedly god-awful noise. Despite all the chatter on the forums about it, I have yet to see evidence of the problem in the 30-50+sec range when the back is used in temps under 40degC.
    BTW, unlike film-era view camera lenses, digi era technical camera lenses such as the apo-digitars etc are optimized for much larger apertures, often in the f8-f11 range. At these apertures, ultra-long exposures are pretty rare in general practice.

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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    P40 + does not have micro lenses and I have gone a full minute just around the corner where Terry shot with excellent results . Can it go longer not sure it was cold out and it probably could have went 2 minutes. Hard to say

    This one was 30 seconds and I did go 60 seconds same shot and looks identical

    I stand corrected about the P40. Amazing!!

    BTW I have seen the god awful noise and misery from the Dalsa sensors more than I care for (Leaf backs). I do have to admit it being several years ago so I am sure there has been improvement in this area. Since I am in doubt over the 50MS or the 60 it would make my choice for the 60 much less painful if I could feel a bit more relieved over the possibilities of the Dalsa for taking long exposures. I have still have no confidence in it getting up to the level of the P21/25/30/45+ any time soon.
    Last edited by Dustbak; 30th November 2010 at 08:32.

  22. #22
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    Re: P80

    No it won't get to those levels of the Phase Kodak sensors anytime soon and obviously this back there was some worry for me to get long exposures. 1 minute is good not great but than you have to decide how much you dip in this area and how much you need it or not. I'm sure i will kick myself one day when i want to do star trails. But I was pleasantly surprised with these long exposures. I would like to try longer and just see what happens just for kicks. Now that it has cooled down here in Phoenix a better chance at it going longer.
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  23. #23
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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    Ah, the speculation! Gives me the giggles when I hear the speculation about a Blad 80Mp. It's almost 2 years since they "announced" the H4d60 and they are only now delivering a small trickle of cameras. I'm very glad to have been a Phase user since the H5.
    Re the long exposure issue, I think the whole debate is a beatup. Yes, the P65+ gets noisy when you go over 60 sec and it gets worse as you shoot consecutive frames. In cool weather this does not happen. The last time I had issues with it, I was shooting 65sec exposures in 50degC weather in the Arabian desert. We've since started applying ice packs to the back on the rare occasion we expose this long. Problem gone. Lets be clear about this - under 60sec I have never seen the allegedly god-awful noise. Despite all the chatter on the forums about it, I have yet to see evidence of the problem in the 30-50+sec range when the back is used in temps under 40degC.
    BTW, unlike film-era view camera lenses, digi era technical camera lenses such as the apo-digitars etc are optimized for much larger apertures, often in the f8-f11 range. At these apertures, ultra-long exposures are pretty rare in general practice.
    Cracks me up what dupes we all are for the back makers ... one minute Phase is the cat's pajamas because it does long exposures ... then it's okay that it doesn't when it can't ...

  24. #24
    Senior Member mAlKhamis's Avatar
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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    P40 + does not have micro lenses and I have gone a full minute just around the corner where Terry shot with excellent results . Can it go longer not sure it was cold out and it probably could have went 2 minutes. Hard to say

    This one was 30 seconds and I did go 60 seconds same shot and looks identical

    Guy, this shot is amazingly exposed and composed, well done my friend

    I only have one note on the P40+ from my basic experience so far, i've noticed that there are some problems with dark blue toning and loss of bits, and it's obvious in the area of transition between light blue to dark blue sometime the dark blues breaks up with minor adjustment like color modification or exposure edit, specially in long exposures.
    is that due to problems in my exposure setting, or it's normal ?

    cheers! Moh
    Mohammad Al-Khamis

  25. #25
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: P80

    I'm wondering if it is the gamut in your monitor.
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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm wondering if it is the gamut in your monitor.
    Maybe you are right !! I'm using a 27 inch imac and my color profile is Adobe RGB 1998 <=== is that the correct color profile ?
    what do you recommend ?
    Mohammad Al-Khamis

  27. #27
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: P80

    No not really it is actually too small a gamut space for the camera which nothing really matches the back camera space it is so damn big . Try Profoto or what i have been doing as Bob brought up to me is in C1 use embedded camera profile in your processing tag.

    Now the other issue is your IMac is SRGB which is a even smaller gamut and you may be banding and more the culprit than your color space

    Honestly you went this far get a wide gamut NEC or Eizo. I believe you can hook up a external monitor to your Imac. So a Nec as your primary with it's color calibration kit and the Imac can be the tool bar monitor. I know you hate me now. LOL More money down the black hole. Actually I am running a 30 inch NEC off my laptop and the laptop is the tool monitor and e-mail. Love this montior
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  28. #28
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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  29. #29
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    Re: P80

    Maybe Doug , Jack and Bob can enlighten the subject more on this. But I think you really are just banding up
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  30. #30
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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Maybe Doug , Jack and Bob can enlighten the subject more on this. But I think you really are just banding up
    i agree with you, maybe it's related to the color space of my imac monitor,

    Buying another monitor, is a nice suggestion, but the black hole already sucked me up

    so it would be an excellent question, what's the best color profile to be used with a 27 inch imac monitor while using capture one.

    thanks Guy for your response, i really appreciate it !
    Mohammad Al-Khamis

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    Re: P80

    I would agree that while 1998 is a perfectly fine color space that ProPhoto is worthwhile to look into if your source images are coming from a digital back where the potential color captured is in a very large (device) color gamut. Mind you that the raw remains in the device color space so you could always go back later and process to a wider gamut but I see very little reason not to process in Profoto to start with, or for a more archival-oriented workflow save your tiffs with the embeded profile before changing them downstream to whatever your needs are.

    I would agree with Mohammad though that at the extremity of the back's long exposure capabilities the first thing to go is often flexibility in blue channel data. That is to say that presented "straight" (meaning few curves/corrections/adjustments) the file from a P40+ or P65+ will look fine at 45 seconds or 60 seconds or, depending on temperature a bit longer, but that when pushed/pulled/manipulated the blues might start to break down. Whereas at 10-30 seconds the blue data will still have a lot of mailability.

    What it comes down to is what it means to be at the extremity of long exposure capability. There must be a point between short exposures (with ridiculous file flexibility) and the longest possible remotely usable long exposure where the image is fine presented strait but the flexibility starts to fade away.

    Another way of saying this is that getting the right in camera exposure becomes increasingly important as you reach the "cliff" of the longest possible exposure.

    The same would be true of a P45+ at around 30-40 minutes; the image is great when presented strait but starts to loose some of it's flexibility in post and requires more attention in post.

    So if you're talking about blue channel flexibility at 30-60 seconds then the color space is not the issue. If you're talking about banding/noise in blue in shorter exposures (e.g. 5 seconds) then the color space, settings in Capture One, and overall workflow might be responsible.

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  32. #32
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    Re: P80

    Honestly you went this far get a wide gamut NEC or Eizo.
    *******
    The difference isn't subtle. In the recent past either Guy and/or Jack mentioned a reduced price on the NEC 3090 WQXI. I got one and it is far superior to my calibrated Mac 30".

    Steve

  33. #33
    Member Harry's Avatar
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    Re: P80

    And now back to our regularly scheduled program.....P80?

  34. #34
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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I would agree that while 1998 is a perfectly fine color space that ProPhoto is worthwhile to look into if your source images are coming from a digital back where the potential color captured is in a very large (device) color gamut. Mind you that the raw remains in the device color space so you could always go back later and process to a wider gamut but I see very little reason not to process in Profoto to start with, or for a more archival-oriented workflow save your tiffs with the embeded profile before changing them downstream to whatever your needs are.

    I would agree with Mohammad though that at the extremity of the back's long exposure capabilities the first thing to go is often flexibility in blue channel data. That is to say that presented "straight" (meaning few curves/corrections/adjustments) the file from a P40+ or P65+ will look fine at 45 seconds or 60 seconds or, depending on temperature a bit longer, but that when pushed/pulled/manipulated the blues might start to break down. Whereas at 10-30 seconds the blue data will still have a lot of mailability.

    What it comes down to is what it means to be at the extremity of long exposure capability. There must be a point between short exposures (with ridiculous file flexibility) and the longest possible remotely usable long exposure where the image is fine presented strait but the flexibility starts to fade away.

    Another way of saying this is that getting the right in camera exposure becomes increasingly important as you reach the "cliff" of the longest possible exposure.

    The same would be true of a P45+ at around 30-40 minutes; the image is great when presented strait but starts to loose some of it's flexibility in post and requires more attention in post.

    So if you're talking about blue channel flexibility at 30-60 seconds then the color space is not the issue. If you're talking about banding/noise in blue in shorter exposures (e.g. 5 seconds) then the color space, settings in Capture One, and overall workflow might be responsible.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Doug, thank you so much, i was actually investigating that by myself before drawing conclusions, but i was to busy to finalize it and ask about it, however you filled up the gaps for me as usual, i really appreciate it !!
    Mohammad Al-Khamis

  35. #35
    Senior Member mAlKhamis's Avatar
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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    And now back to our regularly scheduled program.....P80?
    Harry sorry for cutting your topic like this, but i don't think that Phase one will respond to that, and they will rather tease you and keep it as surprise
    Mohammad Al-Khamis

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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    And now back to our regularly scheduled program.....P80?
    Well, if Phase wanted to stunt sales in P65+ backs, they could leak the reality of a P85+ .... as it seems those in the quest for more and more pixels would naturally wait a bit more ... even with "retail price difference" promotions in place. Which of course leaves out the current P65+ "early adopters" just like it does with any other promo from the competition. For example, Hassey's current trade promo doesn't distinguish between a H3D/39, H3D-II/39, H3D/39 Multi-Shot, CF39, CF-II/39 or CF-CF-II/39 Multi-Shot ... which is mind-boggling IMO. The value of these widely different priced kits is homogenized into one trade value.

    I've a mind to check with my dealer to find out if I can just trade in a H3D/39 toward the H4D/60 I'm leaning toward, then find someone here to swap out my H2F - CF/39 Multi-Shot for their H3D/39.

    Man, the slope gets more and more slippery every year. $20K, $30K, even marching toward $40K. There are so many improvements needed in MFD systems that the march to the poor house will be never ending.

    -Marc

  37. #37
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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by mAlKhamis View Post
    Harry sorry for cutting your topic like this, but i don't think that Phase one will respond to that, and they will rather tease you and keep it as surprise

    Not a problem

    I would guess the new back would not be released for at least a year. Perhaps we could morph this thread into a "what do I want in a P80" since there is time for them to make it happen.

  38. #38
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    Re: P80

    I'll start

    I want a good lcd capable of checking focus.
    Also movable multi focus points similar to Nikon/Canon

  39. #39
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    Re: P80

    Love to see something out for our next workshop.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    I think it will be the P85+ and it will probably be announced before the H4D80
    If the history repeats itself .

    By the way, it looks like only DALSA is investing on the high end.

  41. #41
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    Also movable multi focus points similar to Nikon/Canon
    Any suggestion for how this can be achieved in a digital back? Or are you talking about a new camera system?
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    You sure about that? Your current 40 has a 4minute max exposure with great results.

    I have never seen a Dalsa do more than 32 seconds and we are not even discussing how it looks like.

    I am in the same boat and still wondering whether I want the H4D50MS or the H4D60. Pro's and con's for both.

    Business has been excellent this year but who knows when that will end..
    I guess it's related to subject. I found that the Dalsa sensor have some kind of I don't know what for people and some subjects. The reason for wanting a higher resolution for that kind of application is not counting the number of cells on the model face. Is to kill moiré

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    Re: P80

    Everything is a guess, but

    The back won't be called P80+ or P85+, it will be a new product with a new name.
    The back will be out, or better shown before the end of the year. (probably will ship next year)

    The whole back will be redesigned.

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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Everything is a guess, but

    The back won't be called P80+ or P85+, it will be a new product with a new name.
    The back will be out, or better shown before the end of the year. (probably will ship next year)

    The whole back will be redesigned.
    If that is the case and it ushers the era of new backs it will be very interesting to see what they add. I'm intrigued because C1 ver 6.0 announcement talks about the iPad app coming, presumably to be used in tandem with tethering but what will tethering be? Is wireless fast enough????? These sort of changes would open up using a MacBook Air etc. in the field.....fun times ahead.

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    Re: P80

    Will the new facebook be able to shoot to a iPad or iPhone without a computer ? I dont think so. I could be wrong.

    Wireless is certainly fast enough. The only question I'm not sure about is how much battery is needed for a back to host a WiFi hot spot.

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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    P40 + does not have micro lenses
    I'm not so sure about that statement Guy.

    Read the blurb in the banded image in this link:

    http://www.phaseone.com/en/search/ar...1&languageid=1

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    Re: P80

    Here's my question: With the sharpest glass designed to support the dot pitch of the 60MP back, how much sharper will the 80MP be without NASA quality optics that are not commercially available?

    RE from the Rodenstock website:

    The lenses of the Rodenstock series HR Digaron-W have been optimized for large sensor formats with a pixel pitch of about 6 μm for highest resolution up to 60 megapixels

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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    I'm not so sure about that statement Guy.

    Read the blurb in the banded image in this link:

    http://www.phaseone.com/en/search/ar...1&languageid=1
    Oh I am so positive on this. Okay so drinks in Feb. on the line here. LOL

    Ill buy regardless.

    Doug where ARE YOU. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: P80

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Oh I am so positive on this. Okay so drinks in Feb. on the line here. LOL

    Ill buy regardless.

    Doug where ARE YOU. LOL
    You're both right. Dalsa calls them microlenses, but I wouldn't. They are very shallow and only modestly help increase the effective iso of the back.

    They are shallow to prevent the wide angle issues associated with micro lenses.

    They are a far cry from the microlenses on a P30+.

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    Re: P80

    Okay so it is a draw and i still buy. Love it. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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