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Thread: Sample of high flash sync speed

  1. #1
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Sample of high flash sync speed

    I was shooting a friend's daughter today, and I was thinking about how some people in this forum (won't mention no names ) were dismissing the high sync speed of certain cameras as been overrated or "you'll never need that".

    So here's a sample with 1/500 shutter speed. I wanted to shoot the 180mm f2.8 lens wide open, so this speed was necessary, and of course I used a softbox for fill flash.

    This is a common situation but there's nothing like an image to make the point.


  2. #2
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    No Graham there are many ways to cheat it if you have too. Very simple . Example sun is 125 at f16 correct at ISO 100. Get a system that can generate f11 with a softbox outside. Profoto 7b, Elinchron Ranger even a normal pack and head with a Dynalite XP110 sine battery which i use. Than for a look like this you would have to shoot F11 correct . So grab the longest beast you have for me a 300mm mamiya at F11. i bet i would get fairly similar look. Easier with a leaf shutter sure but you can cheat and i have done this for years with a focal plane shutter. Now you have fill at F11 sun at F16 which should give you a nice balance and shoot at F11. So really the trick to it all for this look is a longer lens and plenty of juice from your strobe. The problem comes when you try to overpower the sun with a focal plane shutter with strobe. Much harder to cheat here because you will need more power than the sun by a large margin. BTW great shot. So getting a really dark background will be tougher with a focal plane shutter unless your strobe will crank out F16 ,22 and 32 depending on look. But remember on the same token a focal plane shutter can go as high as 1/4000 which a leaf shutter max is 1/800 i believe so in turn there our issues there as well. Ideally you want both, now the Mamiya will have that with new leaf shutters lenses coming and folks like Ray won't have to buy two completely different systems . Honestly advantage will be Mamiya when these lenses hit the street or any system that has focal plane shutters that can also take leaf shutters.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  3. #3
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    Sorry, Guy, I don't believe that shooting at f11 will look like this shot at f2.8 Those blurred flowers are really close to the girl.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    Maybe not as close but the 300 fall off is really good . But like I said it is nice to have both focal and leaf. I want a leaf lens myself for stuff like this but you can get very close with enough juice to do it. But it will be harder with bokeh like this without the use of a very long lens. Like I said you can cheat it pretty well
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    As long as you're not trying to freeze motion faster than the sync speed an ND filter should solve the problem by dropping your shutter speed while staying at f/2.8.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Seitz View Post
    As long as you're not trying to freeze motion faster than the sync speed an ND filter should solve the problem by dropping your shutter speed while staying at f/2.8.
    That will work, but shooting people at 1/500 is generally better than shooting them at 1/125. Also, focusing with a 2 stop ND isn't as easy/nice.

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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    Graham,

    I fell into your camp which is why I really wanted the leaf shutter system first. I tried the cheating like Guy mentions but just couldn't get what I wanted and needed the faster shutter sync with strobes in daylight for fill.

    I also needed a lighter system that was focal shutter with higher ISO and faster shutter speeds for other work, so I ended up with a second system.

    I had to have a backup for some of the work and went with systems that I think provide an advantage to each end. 39MP Hassy with leaf shutter and 31MP P30+ Phase/Mamiya for the focal plane shutter.

    Right now I have both a Hassy and a Phase/Mamiya system. How it all works out in the long run is yet to be seen.

    Point is that I agree with you on the need for the leaf shutter and faster sync speed on something like this.

    Best,

    Ray

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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    Ray, well now that we know you've got two high end backs the obvious question is which is your favorite gun to rob a bank I'm partial to Glock for the stealth look but the Beretta in steel does have a style all it's own. BTW, Graham, beautiful capture... I love that 180 2.8 for portraits.

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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    David,

    I prefer to use a rifle when I know that I'm going to be shooting. I can either bring the full-auto AUG or for heavy use the M60.

    Not that I would of course.

    Ray

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    Ray is my backup man. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  11. #11
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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    Actually....

    Here are the equiv. full sun exposures at ISO 100:

    1/125 @ f/16
    1/250 @ f/11
    1/500 @ f/8
    1/1000 @ f/5.6 (this one's for David K)

    So, you actually need LESS flash power to overpower the sun. Remember, strobe exposure is not affected by shutter speed at all (b/c the flash duration is so much shorter) and the sun is affected by both shutter and aperture. So, on a leaf shutter (at 1/500th) you only need f/8 to match the sun, f/11 to get a 70/30 ratio, f/16 to get an 80/20, and f/22 to pretty much get rid of the sun entirely. With a focal plane shutter at 1/125 you need two stops more light or four times more power to accomplish the same ratios. i.e. instead of 300 Ws you need 1200 Ws. This is also issue with lenses as you go past the diffraction point. ND puts you in the same boat of needing more power as well.

    This has always been the classic drawback of 645 for fashion (until the Hassy H series). Many shooters stuck to RZ67 (1/400th sync) and Hassy V (1/500th sync) for location lighting work. 35mm cameras usually sync to 1/250th, which is great but certainly manageable. Suffice it to say, I'm very much looking forward to Mamiyas upcoming leaf shutter lenses.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Super Duper
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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    High Sync speed is far more important for 90% of the paying work I do. 1/500th, 1/800th or 1/1000th is really helpful when working with on-camera fill ... like for wedding and event work where you have less control of back lighting locations, or they want pics on the beach.

    Shooting a 100/2.2 wide open just ain't the same as using a longer lens .... the effect of lens draw on a person is totally different.

    A Focal Plane camera interest me only for available light stuff. A few Leaf Shutter lenses for a Focal Plane system wouldn't cut it for me ... I'd need all focal lengths in Leaf Shutter versions ... which is what is nice about the the 203FE ... focal plane lenses, or any of the Leaf Shutter C lenses.

    With strobes it's less of an issue but still one none the less ... cut the strobe pack back to shorten the duration, and open the lens up to control DOF and you need a fast enough shutter speed to avoid any ambient motion ghosting. I did some kids jumping skate boards, with a shallow DOF, and even 1/400th on the RZ was still leaving some motion blur.

    Very nice photo foto-z

  13. #13
    Senior Member irakly's Avatar
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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    i used to have contax n digital that had iso25. that was awesome. i really missed iso25 since then as the kodak back does not go below 100. now it is just as good with iso50 on p25 because in MF you get better bokeh at f/2 than with 35mm full frame at f/1.4

  14. #14
    thsinar
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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    No Guy, it's a 1/1000, with the Schneider PQS lenses.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    a leaf shutter max is 1/800 i believe

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    Thanks Thierry , some things just blur . LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    No Guy, it's a 1/1000, with the Schneider PQS lenses.

    Thierry
    PQS - pretty quick sync

  17. #17
    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    Once you use fast sync you do not want to go back.

  18. #18
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    Re: Sample of high flash sync speed

    No 28 mm lens,
    however rotating back and fastest sync speed!
    Hy6 rocks!

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