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Thread: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

  1. #101
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    I agree let's face it on the technical part we only have two brands of Sensors, Kodak and Dalsa and maybe very fine differences between them but as Thierry laid out very nicely you have to look at the other end of this when making these buy decisions. Honestly not sure you can go completely wrong but certain parts stick out also like software on the image side of things but than warranty and service and support stuff play the other big role. The bottom line in my thinking look at all the parts of the puzzle and than see what works for you the best. I have said that at least 100 times or more on any system. Buy a system not a part
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  2. #102
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Guy,

    you should say it a 100 times a day!



    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I have said that at least 100 times or more on any system. Buy a system not a part

  3. #103
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Guy,
    you hit the nail on the head!

  4. #104
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Thanks been saying that for years but only by mistakes does one realize you have to think like that. I bought more stuff than i can count and made some dumb mistakes along the way and i think many have also but thinking system is one way to stay out of some trouble. You just can't buy a MF back and not think what you need to bolt to it for example
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    It would be interesting, to me at least, to see what different priorities we place on the many factors that go into a choice of back. I'd put high ISO performance near the bottom of my list.. nice to have but not an important feature for me. Software and workflow is up near the top of my list and I'm not even a pro. I'd agree with others that the IQ is pretty much a given for all the major brands. And let's not forget price, not only for the back but for the glass you will need to shoot with.

  6. #106
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    David, that would be a good topic on it's own and of benefit to any potential buyer -- why don't you start a new thread on it?
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  7. #107
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    I agree Jack that is a excellent topic for folks to learn by.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  8. #108
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Up until a couple of weeks ago I owned both a Phase One P45+ (and previously a Phase One P45) along with a Sinar eMotion75 LV (upgrade to Generation II is in the pipeline). I now own only the Sinar as I finish moving to the Hy6.

    I can tell you from direct personal experience that David has hit the nail on the head when he refers to the priorities we place on the many factors that go into the choice of back. This is everything.

    In my experience, if you want ultra-clean low-ISO files, the Phase does a better job. If you want deep shadow detail the Sinar does a better job. If you want the highest possible resolution, the Phase does a better job. If you want superior high ISO performance, the Sinar does a better job. I could go on...

    In some cases, it is possible to change the rules and improve one back's performance significantly with extra work and post-processing. In many cases, it isn't.

    The point to take away is which are the things you care about most in your image files, workflow or even handling of the back while shooting? Do you want these attributes "out of the box", or are you willing to do extra work to have them? I truly believe there is no "best" solution--if there were, we'd all have found it by now.

    Once I get my Gen.II Sinar back, I'll look into posting some head-to-head comparisons of the P45+ and eMo75LV backs, using exactly the same glass, lighting conditions etc. if folks are interested. Please be patient, though--schedule is getting a bit crowded.

    Kind regards,
    Brad

  9. #109
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pham Minh Son View Post
    Speaking of colors, the Rollei 55 PC is amazing; very rich and natural colors.

    Best Regards,
    -Son
    Pham, EH21, David K, Thierry and other owners......
    Someone please post some images taken with this 55mm PC lens.
    Thanks in advance.
    Billy

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Billy,

    Here's a quick test shot I took yesterday just to make sure the lens was working properly. Nothing special, but I do think it shows the color rendering that Son referred to. Very smooth and creamy for lack of better vocabulary. I'll be happy to post some others when I get an opportunity.

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Here's a crop... Hey Peter, it does seem as if we take a lot of foliage test shots

  12. #112
    Samuel Axelsson
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Here's a crop... Hey Peter, it does seem as if we take a lot of foliage test shots
    David, I think that shot is oversharpened. Look at the black halo around the leaves.
    Is this ISO 800?

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Axelsson View Post
    David, I think that shot is oversharpened. Look at the black halo around the leaves.
    Is this ISO 800?
    This is at ISO 100 and, as mentioned, simply a test shot. I think I did a touch of levels and curves but no sharpening whatsoever. At least not intentionally.
    The RAW files were converted with Brumbaer which I'm told has no sharpening applied whatsoever.

  14. #114
    Panopeeper
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    David,

    Samuel is right with the halos. Brumbauer converts the raw file only in DNG, not in TIFF or JPEG, or am I wrong?

    Thus you must have converted the DNG in JPEG by something else, and that product must have carrier out the sharpening.

  15. #115
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    I think Samuel is just kidding you guys.
    The leaves themselves have a white edging.

    David K, thanks for posting the image.
    Does the 55mm PC snap into focus?

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Thanks Billy... I thought I was going nuts there for a moment (just noticed Samuel's smiley face but missed it at first). Yes, the 55 PC snaps into focus, very easy to see in the WLF and very precisely captured. Gabor, these were converted in CS3 from DNG to TIFF, then to web-sized JPEG via Jack's action. I applied no sharpening and Jack's action does not appear to do so either.

  17. #117
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Just as a point of reference here's a similar scene at ISO 800 from a stitched DSLR photo processed in C1.

    Full scene followed by the 100% crop at ISO 800.
    Last edited by Greg Seitz; 14th October 2010 at 07:22.

  18. #118
    Samuel Axelsson
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Guys I wasn't kidding.
    If you look carefully you'll see a black line outside the white one, very thin but it's there. I see it in both of my monitors. Maybe isn't sharpening but it must be some kind of artifact.
    I'm referring to the 100% crop.

    The crop got my attention because the edges are very defined but there's no very fine detail in the leave's surface.
    About the ISO, I asked if it was 800 because it looks a bit noisy. That's why I thought it could be the sharpening.

    Maybe I'm looking too close....

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    I propose that all future lens tests use scantily clad models. I've had enough flora and fauna shots to last for a while

  20. #120
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Axelsson View Post
    Guys I wasn't kidding.
    If you look carefully you'll see a black line outside the white one, very thin but it's there. I see it in both of my monitors. Maybe isn't sharpening but it must be some kind of artifact.
    I'm referring to the 100% crop.

    The crop got my attention because the edges are very defined but there's no very fine detail in the leave's surface.
    About the ISO, I asked if it was 800 because it looks a bit noisy. That's why I thought it could be the sharpening.

    Maybe I'm looking too close....
    Samuel,
    It's not there in the original, perhaps a jpeg artifact from resizing... I'm uploading the DNG to Yousendit.com right now and will provide a link if you're interested in viewing it.

  21. #121
    Samuel Axelsson
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    I propose that all future lens tests use scantily clad models. I've had enough flora and fauna shots to last for a while
    That's a great idea, actually I'm starting to see ,"GetDPI.com""GetDPI.com""GetDPI.com""GetDPI.co m"
    "GetDPI.com""GetDPI.com""GetDPI.com""GetDPI.co m"
    "GetDPI.com""GetDPI.com""GetDPI.com"

    when I water my plants...

  22. #122
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Samuel,
    It's not there in the original, perhaps a jpeg artifact from resizing... I'm uploading the DNG to Yousendit.com right now and will provide a link if you're interested in viewing it.
    David

    I would be interested in seeing the raw file so please send away!

    Thanks

    Woody

  23. #123
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    I propose that all future lens tests use scantily clad models. I've had enough flora and fauna shots to last for a while
    Can I second this motion. I don't have nice plants here
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  24. #124
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    But Guy has better iron cowboys than a lot of us.


  25. #125
    Panopeeper
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    these were converted in CS3 from DNG to TIFF, then to web-sized JPEG via Jack's action. I applied no sharpening and Jack's action does not appear to do so either.
    David,

    1. the sharpening is obvious; look at this crop of your crop:



    2. this is ok. This sharpening is perhaps even too few for printing; however, in 100% view it does show up. This is not an important occasion; if it was, one would have to make a different sharpening for the 100% crop.

    3. even if *you* did not specify sharpening in the ACR processing, there may have been some applied.

    Please upload not only the DNG created by Brumbaer's, but the original raw as well; then I convert that with Adobe's DNG converter and compare the result with the other.

    Brumbaer's have not applied any sharpening, for that is not possible before the de-mosaicing. However, Brumbaer's may have passed along instruction re sharpening in the raw file. I observed this on Sinar a e-54 DNG file created by Brumbaer's.

    This is something you should be aware of.

  26. #126
    Samuel Axelsson
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Samuel,
    It's not there in the original, perhaps a jpeg artifact from resizing... I'm uploading the DNG to Yousendit.com right now and will provide a link if you're interested in viewing it.
    David, it was only an observation. I'm sure the raws and tiffs look much better.
    Thanks !

  27. #127
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Sorry Billy, I don't owe this lens myself, and my friend just got it and did not yet shott with it. I shall try to get something as soon as possible, but now sure.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    Pham, EH21, David K, Thierry and other owners......
    Someone please post some images taken with this 55mm PC lens.
    Thanks in advance.
    Billy

  28. #128
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Correct, with the risk of repeating myself: the Brumbaer DNG Converter DOES NOT have any sharpening, nor does it have any NR.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    The RAW files were converted with Brumbaer which I'm told has no sharpening applied whatsoever.

  29. #129
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    hi Gabor,

    you are correct: Brumbaer DNG Converter ONLY converts into DNG, nothing else.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Panopeeper View Post
    David,

    Samuel is right with the halos. Brumbauer converts the raw file only in DNG, not in TIFF or JPEG, or am I wrong?

    Thus you must have converted the DNG in JPEG by something else, and that product must have carrier out the sharpening.

  30. #130
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    ... and sorry for having started this, with my leaves!
    I don't have time to drive around and look for a "blue" subject, as suggested by Jack (for the blue channel).

    Sam: if you don't want to see "GetDPI" when watering your plants, come over to Bangkok, you don't need to water them here, the rainy season has started!



    Thierry


    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Axelsson View Post
    That's a great idea, actually I'm starting to see ,"GetDPI.com""GetDPI.com""GetDPI.com""GetDPI.co m"
    "GetDPI.com""GetDPI.com""GetDPI.com""GetDPI.co m"
    "GetDPI.com""GetDPI.com""GetDPI.com"

    when I water my plants...

  31. #131
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Yes, ACR does set a default sharpening.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Panopeeper View Post
    David,
    3. even if *you* did not specify sharpening in the ACR processing, there may have been some applied.

  32. #132
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    In defense of Thierry I'll offer that the wavy green leaves that he posted look almost like plastic (or like coated silk plants) when you're standing next to them (as one who sees them often), so if that's how they were captured then his camera was doing pretty well.

  33. #133
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    hi Dale,

    Thanks to "defend" my point: I have mentioned this yesterday, these plants do almost not have details in their leaves, and you know them well Dale, for being so much in Thailand.

    This ISO 800 test was actually not done to show details in mid- or highlight tones, but in shadows, in deep black parts of the image and in 1/4 tonalities, as well as noise in these areas: any ISO 800 of nearly any camera/digital back can show details in mid tones and in highlights (up to some extend).

    And then suddenly this thread has moved to looking at details in mid tones, and images have been posted with very little shadows and blacks.

    Actually and as a side note: I have shot some ISO 800 and 1600 with my 10 MPx Lumix yesterday, under sunny and bright light conditions. I can tell you that the mid tones and 3/4 tones are pretty good for a Euro 300.- camera! I won't tell you how it looks elsewhere.

    After that came up the "critic" that it was mainly a green subject with the green channel being "pushed" and that the blue would have been better to look at (actually I have published the 3 RGB channels for each of my images, from the very raw DNG to the end PP TIF): I do know that this site is full of people shooting landscapes, and I do know that most of the landscapes in the world have some very little green parts in their images, rarely blue. Actually, one can do it either way, one will always find somebody to claim the contrary would have been better.

    So I do not take offense of what is said or criticized. I am simply here to share my experience and to correct things when they seem to be biased or wrong. But I do believe as well that everybody is mature and responsible enough not to take all what is said by others as a fact and the truth, and do hope at the same time that all claims here or elsewhere are put on the test to be able to build-up one's own truth.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    In defense of Thierry I'll offer that the wavy green leaves that he posted look almost like plastic (or like coated silk plants) when you're standing next to them (as one who sees them often), so if that's how they were captured then his camera was doing pretty well.
    Last edited by thsinar; 8th June 2008 at 21:15.

  34. #134
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Thierry,

    I think that it's important that we all take time to remember that most of the images which are shared here are unique to the time, place, and processing of the moment. It's all very enjoyable to see, and often informative, but unless we are shooting together and using more controlled processes, we should be careful to bear in mind the variables.

    This applies to all brands of cameras and backs of course.

  35. #135
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Absolutely Dale, I do fully agree.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    Thierry,

    I think that it's important that we all take time to remember that most of the images which are shared here are unique to the time, place, and processing of the moment. It's all very enjoyable to see, and often informative, but unless we are shooting together and using more controlled processes, we should be careful to bear in mind the variables.

    This applies to all brands of cameras and backs of course.

  36. #136
    Panopeeper
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Thierry,

    this "blue issue" is nonsensical. From the point of the camera's capability, it is irrelevant how much blue or red or green is there; what is relevant, how few it is, i.e. how low the exposure is on a critical part. For example skin is sometimes noisy, particularly in incandescent light, just because the blue is very low; or the blue sky is noisy, because the red is very low.

    Here is a part of your plasticy plant, non-demosaiced, brightness increased by 5 stops (this view is darker). The increase is necessary, for your camera does not have ISO 800, and the shot is strongly underexposed.

    The blue in the selected area (in the orangy rectangle) is in the tenth and eleventh stop, and it is very clean (the standard deviation is of limited use here, because the patch is not uniform). That shows the quality, not how it looks there, where the exposure is high.


  37. #137
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Gabor,

    When I read your posts I feel like the blond who doesn't get the joke I'm almost afraid to ask what you mean when you say Thierry's camera (mine too) doesn't have ISO 800.

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Axelsson View Post
    Guys I wasn't kidding.
    If you look carefully you'll see a black line outside the white one, very thin but it's there. I see it in both of my monitors. Maybe isn't sharpening but it must be some kind of artifact.
    I'm referring to the 100% crop.

    The crop got my attention because the edges are very defined but there's no very fine detail in the leave's surface.
    About the ISO, I asked if it was 800 because it looks a bit noisy. That's why I thought it could be the sharpening.

    Maybe I'm looking too close....
    Samuel,
    Turns out you are correct and that my conversion did, inadvertently, sharpen the edges in the image. I use Aperture to convert the DNG's to TIFF's and there is a default sharpening that I had not turned off. This was not apparent to me because that adjustment is hidden unless you choose for it to be shown (which I never did because it's not my intention to sharpen at that stage). Thanks to your good eye I have now got my settings the way I want them.

  39. #139
    Panopeeper
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    what you mean when you say Thierry's camera (mine too) doesn't have ISO 800.
    It means, that when you select ISO 200, the metering will yield one stop lower exposure than with ISO 100, just like with a -1 EV exposure bias. Additionally, the camera records, that your intention was to use ISO 200, and the raw processor will apply a +1 EV correction (+2 EV with ISO 400, +3 EV with ISO 800).

    This is true re the eMotion 54. I am not sure regarding the e75: I see that it does not have ISO 800, but it is possible, that it has ISO 400. I don't have comparable raw files to analyze that (I need the same scenery, same illumination, with ISO 50, 100, 200, etc., either with constant exposure, or with 1 EV reduced at each ISO increase).

    However, Thierry's shot is exactly three stops lower exposed than the very right edge; this mad me think that the exposure had been calculated three stops lower than "normal". Otherwise he would have had to underexpose by two stops - not very probable.

    Befor you get scared: this is not unique. The Phase One P25+, and apparently the P30 too don't have different ISO gains; the P45+ does. Please note the difference between the ISO setting and the ISO gain.

    This is all right, because these cameras have a huge dynamic range and deliver very clean pixels. However, there is a downside of this, cased not by the camera but by Brumbaer's and eXposure, therefor I suggest not to use fictional ISOs.

    Keep in eyes, that there is no ISO gain, i.e. the image data is the same as it would be with any other ISO setting if the exposure were the same. You use higher ISO in circumstances, when you can not expose high enough with the "standard" ISO, whatever that is. So, now ypu select ISO 400 and expose two stops lower, than you would do with ISO 100. However, there may be highlights in the scenery; these would be blown with real ISO gain, but not with the fictional ISO. This means, that you can "recover" (this is incorrect here) areas, which appear blown. However, as the automatic compensation for the underexposure is realized, everything higher than the fictional limit is regarded by ACR as "blown out"; you can gain it back by the exposure or by the "recovery" slider, but if you don't know this, you get fooled.

    I don't know, how it works with Aperture, but what I see in the DNG file generated by Brumbaer's and eXposure indicates, that the same will happen there.

    Capture One may treat the original raw files differently, more sensibly, I don't know.
    Last edited by Panopeeper; 8th June 2008 at 23:03.

  40. #140
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Yes, Gabor, I am aware of this, that the "blue issue" is nonsensical, I simply did not want to elaborate on this. It is very clear to me, how it works, and that I can check the noise behaviour of a digital camera as well in "Green" subjects.

    Thanks for your explanation, it helps a lot to understand how noise works.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Addendum: for others, and since we were speaking about "details" here and the lack of details of my ISO 800 shot, one may look and appreciate how many details and how clean they are when under-exposed by 5 f-stops, respectively brightened (dixit Gabor). That is why I was saying that Jack and myself don't have the same understanding of details. I was not speaking about available structures in a shot and the image in general, but those kind of details as shown in deep shadows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panopeeper View Post
    Thierry,

    this "blue issue" is nonsensical. From the point of the camera's capability, it is irrelevant how much blue or red or green is there; what is relevant, how few it is, i.e. how low the exposure is on a critical part. For example skin is sometimes noisy, particularly in incandescent light, just because the blue is very low; or the blue sky is noisy, because the red is very low.

    Here is a part of your plasticy plant, non-demosaiced, brightness increased by 5 stops (this view is darker). The increase is necessary, for your camera does not have ISO 800, and the shot is strongly underexposed.

    The blue in the selected area (in the orangy rectangle) is in the tenth and eleventh stop, and it is very clean (the standard deviation is of limited use here, because the patch is not uniform). That shows the quality, not how it looks there, where the exposure is high.
    Last edited by thsinar; 8th June 2008 at 23:22.

  41. #141
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Gabor, for your information,

    both eXposure and the Brumbaer DNG Converter have a highlight recovery, at all "ISOs". Brumbaer went actually famous and praised by those using it exactly because of this unique "highlight recovery", beside the "white shadings" being applied automatically and in a batch.

    I had light situations where I could "recover" more than 3 f-stops in hightlights, thanks to Stefan's unique way to recover.

    Don't forget: DNG applications like ACR, LR, Aperture, Raw Developer", etc ... can only recover what is still there. In other words, if the files used in these applications are already "clipped", there is not much to recover.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Panopeeper View Post

    I don't know, how it works with Aperture, but what I see in the DNG file generated by Brumbaer's and eXposure indicates, that the same will happen there.

    Capture One may treat the original raw files differently, more sensibly, I don't know.

  42. #142
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    This is one of the reasons,why I went with the Sinar eMotion-75LV.
    Stefan Hess"Brumbear"
    No other backs(Phase,Leaf,Blad) can use that option.
    Excellent for high contrast scenes!
    Cheers,
    Willem.

  43. #143
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Gabor, for your information,

    both eXposure and the Brumbaer DNG Converter have a highlight recovery, at all "ISOs". Brumbaer went actually famous and praised by those using it exactly because of this unique "highlight recovery", beside the "white shadings" being applied automatically and in a batch.

    I had light situations where I could "recover" more than 3 f-stops in highlights, thanks to Stefan's unique way to recover.

    Don't forget: DNG applications like ACR, LR, Aperture, Raw Developer", etc ... can only recover what is still there. In other words, if the files used in these applications are already "clipped", there is not much to recover.

    Best regards,
    Thierry
    How can any post program "recover" what is not there?

    Frankly, I don't see the practical application of high ISO torture test shots done in relatively good light. It's the deep shadows and high contrast of lower ambient light situations where one is forced to a higher ISO ... and where the problem of noise rears it's head.

    Speaking of ISO ... I'm curious as to how much plus or minus tolerance is officially allowed in reporting photographic ISO numbers? I noted that the ISO 800 of the Aptus 75s back I used seemed a bit ambitious, where the ISO 640 of the Leica M8 seemed conservative, and closer to 800 than 640.
    I've also been told that there is a fair tolerance in claiming the ISO standards for flash sync leaf shutter speeds.

  44. #144
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Marc,

    NONE, can do this, and that's exactly what is my point and what some seem to forget: you can't recover details when they are not there in the first hand.

    That is why Brumbaer (AND Sinar eXposure) is unique: it does recover from the very ORIGINAL Sinar RAWS, the ".IA" and ".BR" files, and THERE the information is. And those details are then in the DNGs which one is using further in all these DNG compatible applications.

    Yes, I agree, that it makes no sense to "torture" ourselves with well exposed files in optimal light conditions. And that is why I have shot and post mine in less than optimal light, with DEEP shadows, with strong (burnt-out) highlights and with a contrast above the normal.

    ISOs: there is no norm specified for this (digital). I have given some information on how Sinar does come to its ISOs. It is very much dependent on the contrast curve which you are using. So if you find the Leaf ISO to be a bit exagerated, it might be because it applies not to the linear curve but to some other default curve.

    here what I wrote in another thread:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The first question one has to ask, is to what the actual (nominal) ISO is corresponding and related. There are of course ISO norms, but those are rather thought for the consumer field and leave open a big "playing gap". Therefore, the manufacturer has to decide by himself to what this ISO should be related.

    When doing a lightmetering, the result should lead to a medium grey (Lab 50/0/0) rendered as medium grey. One has to be aware here, that a RGB medium grey does not necessarily correspond to 128/128/128, respectively a centered histogram does not necessarily lead to a correct exposure.

    This is strongly depending on the Gamma value of the chosen Colour Working Space: in sRGB, a RGB value of 119/119/119 correspond to a medium grey. In ECI RGB, a medium grey is given with a value of 101/101/101.

    The goal of the ISO sensitivity "finding" should therefore be to reach the above value for a medium grey, with ALSO taking in count the used "contrast curve". This has led to the value of ISO 100 as nominal sensitivity for the eMotion 75, and ISO 50 for the eMotion 54 (resp. eMotion 22), with a "default" or "standard" contrast curve of "3" in Captureshop/eXposure.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Best regards,
    THierry

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    How can any post program "recover" what is not there?

    Frankly, I don't see the practical application of high ISO torture test shots done in relatively good light. It's the deep shadows and high contrast of lower ambient light situations where one is forced to a higher ISO ... and where the problem of noise rears it's head.

    Speaking of ISO ... I'm curious as to how much plus or minus tolerance is officially allowed in reporting photographic ISO numbers? I noted that the ISO 800 of the Aptus 75s back I used seemed a bit ambitious, where the ISO 640 of the Leica M8 seemed conservative, and closer to 800 than 640.
    I've also been told that there is a fair tolerance in claiming the ISO standards for flash sync leaf shutter speeds.
    Last edited by thsinar; 9th June 2008 at 00:20.

  45. #145
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Marc,

    NONE, can do this, and that's exactly what is my point and what some seem to forget: you can't recover details when they are not there in the first hand.

    That is why Brumbaer (AND Sinar eXposure) is unique: it does recover from the very ORIGINAL Sinar RAWS, the ".IA" and ".BR" files, and THERE the information is. And those details are then in the DNGs which one is using further in all these DNG compatible applications.

    Yes, I agree, that it makes no sense to "torture" ourselves with well exposed files in optimal light conditions. And that is why I have shot and post mine in less than optimal light, with DEEP shadows, with strong (burnt-out) highlights and with a contrast above the normal.

    ISOs: there is no norm specified for this (digital). I have given some information on how Sinar does come to its ISOs. It is very much dependent on the contrast curve which you are using. So if you find the Leaf ISO to be a bit exagerated, it might be because it applies not to the linear curve but to some other default curve.

    here what I wrote in another thread:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The first question one has to ask, is to what the actual (nominal) ISO is corresponding and related. There are of course ISO norms, but those are rather thought for the consumer field and leave open a big "playing gap". Therefore, the manufacturer has to decide by himself to what this ISO should be related.

    When doing a lightmetering, the result should lead to a medium grey (Lab 50/0/0) rendered as medium grey. One has to be aware here, that a RGB medium grey does not necessarily correspond to 128/128/128, respectively a centered histogram does not necessarily lead to a correct exposure.

    This is strongly depending on the Gamma value of the chosen Colour Working Space: in sRGB, a RGB value of 119/119/119 correspond to a medium grey. In ECI RGB, a medium grey is given with a value of 101/101/101.

    The goal of the ISO sensitivity "finding" should therefore be to reach the above value for a medium grey, with ALSO taking in count the used "contrast curve". This has led to the value of ISO 100 as nominal sensitivity for the eMotion 75, and ISO 50 for the eMotion 54 (resp. eMotion 22), with a "default" or "standard" contrast curve of "3" in Captureshop/eXposure.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Best regards,
    THierry
    Thanks. Interesting info. When I get a chance to discuss this with a knowledgable Hasselblad tech, I'd like to know their POV. I have had little trouble with H3D-II files in terms of recovery.

    I do not agree that your ISO 800 shot was a torture test. For ISO 800 to be useful for me, it's usually in some dim conditions that involve motion and the need to get the shutter speed up.

    For example, I did a shoot for Muddy Creek, a horse back riding gear manufacturer ... where the job was to document a typical riding trek demonstrating their product in the real world. The product was a unique rain coat that covers the saddle. The shoot started before the sun had risen enough ... so I had to deal with the riding motion as they started out in the early AM.

    My torture test:

    Girl in water:Hasselblad H3D/31, ISO 800 which was pushed 1.5 stops in post, 255mm @ f/5.4 (this was wide open using a HC150/3.2 with a 1.7X), 1/180th shutter (which was as low as I dare go with the subject in motion).

    Cowboy fastening the coat, and 100% detail. This one was @ ISO 800 also, but it only needed about 1/2 to 3/4 stops of "Torture" in post.
    Last edited by fotografz; 23rd July 2008 at 02:29.

  46. #146
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Marc,

    I agree with you on the use of high ISOs.

    if I read your shooting data correctly, it was ISO 800 at f5.4 at 1/180th.

    Mine was f5.6 at 1/40th. I believe that my files is clean enough to go and push it an additional 2 stops, may be even more, and still getting a decent result while capturing something in motion.

    I have said it: either way you are doing it, somebody will tell you that it would have been better to test this or that. I have simply made this test in my garden, rushing because I had to "prepare" my daughter to go to school while my wife was looking for my other baby daughter. I have no time to look for moving subjects and only did this test because I was asked to do so by somebody else, and to show that MFDBs (ALL brands, to be clear and to not start another arguing) can easily compete with slr cameras. If somebody is not happy with the way I did my test and the sample presented, he is free to do it under his own conditions. As soon I had started this thread I have been criticized and many have felt the necessity to jump in to show their own ISO 800, ISO 1600, and so on .... It was not my intention to start a brand war nor a comparison with MF brands, but it turned out like this.

    Thanks and best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    My torture test:

    Girl in water:Hasselblad H3D/31, ISO 800 which was pushed 1.5 stops in post, 255mm @ f/5.4 (this was wide open using a HC150/3.2 with a 1.7X), 1/180th shutter (which was as low as I dare go with the subject in motion).

    Cowboy fastening the coat, and 100% detail. This one was @ ISO 800 also, but it only needed about 1/2 to 3/4 stops of "Torture" in post.

  47. #147
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Welcome.

    I have no knowledge how Phocus deals with the files and how it recovers the highlights.
    I can speak about Flexcolor and say that (like Captureshop before, and like the other brands' own software) above a certain saturation the highlights are simply and purely clipped and cut away. The reason why this is done is because there are very few situations where all 3 colour channels are fully saturated and without information. Not clipping them would lead to some colour casts in the image. One is loosing an important part of the DR by doing so.

    Brumbaer and eXposure do handle this completely differently: as said, there are very few situations were all the 3 colour channels are burnt out completely and at the same time. Most of the time there is some information left in at least one of the 3 channels. It is this information left in only 1 (or sometimes even 2) which is used to recover the 2 other channels.

    But again, I do not know how the new Phocus is working here: it would be worth to do a test.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Thanks. Interesting info. When I get a chance to discuss this with a knowledgable Hasselblad tech, I'd like to know their POV. I have had little trouble with H3D-II files in terms of recovery.

  48. #148
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Thanks. Interesting info. When I get a chance to discuss this with a knowledgable Hasselblad tech, I'd like to know their POV. I have had little trouble with H3D-II files in terms of recovery.

    I do not agree that your ISO 800 shot was a torture test. For ISO 800 to be useful for me, it's usually in some dim conditions that involve motion and the need to get the shutter speed up.

    For example, I did a shoot for Muddy Creek, a horse back riding gear manufacturer ... where the job was to document a typical riding trek demonstrating their product in the real world. The product was a unique rain coat that covers the saddle. The shoot started before the sun had risen enough ... so I had to deal with the riding motion as they started out in the early AM.

    My torture test:

    Girl in water:Hasselblad H3D/31, ISO 800 which was pushed 1.5 stops in post, 255mm @ f/5.4 (this was wide open using a HC150/3.2 with a 1.7X), 1/180th shutter (which was as low as I dare go with the subject in motion).

    Cowboy fastening the coat, and 100% detail. This one was @ ISO 800 also, but it only needed about 1/2 to 3/4 stops of "Torture" in post.
    Marc,

    The Cowboy crop that you show is actually only a 50% crop of the overall shot you showed which effectively means it's a crop of your original downsized to 8 megapixels. Do you have the full 100% crop? Also curious in this circumstance if you needed high ISO why not pull out the D3 or 1DMIII since they seem likely to produce better end results in this case even with their lower number of pixels. Just trying to get my head around the capabilities of these backs.

    Thanks,

    Greg
    Last edited by Greg Seitz; 9th June 2008 at 07:24.

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Seitz View Post
    Marc,

    The Cowboy crop that you show is actually only a 50% crop which effectively means it's a crop of your original downsized to 8 megapixels. Do you have the full 100% crop? Also curious in this circumstance if you needed high ISO why not pull out the D3 or 1DMIII since they seem likely to produce better end results in this case even with their lower number of pixels. Just trying to get my head around the capabilities of these backs.

    Thanks,

    Greg
    I took the image to 100% (actual pixels) Greg, and cropped a section from that.

    My partner shot back-up with a 1DsMKII and the files were not selected by the art director client, in fact my partner trashed most of them after seeing the MFD shots of the same scenes ... the final file use was for laminated trade show murals at 6 feet wide and up ... therefore the Canon nor the Nikon would and could not NOT produce better end results as you presumed without knowing what they were for.

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    After reading through this thread, I have to admit that I was not quite sure what some of the other torture tests were really trying to show....good DR at high ISO? noise level at high ISO? detail preservation at high ISO? To me, shooting a very bright scene at high ISO, even one with deep shadows, does not seem like a practical or more realistic approach. The push of ISO is going to reduce the DR in most shots, so whatever is in the deep shadows is already going to be suffering, and probably out of range of a more proper exposure for that situation than an exposure where one is also trying to keep the highlights from blowing out.

    I realize somewhat the test objectives, but am just not sure the tests are really providing all that much useful data. If you need shadow details, you expose for them, even if that means high ISO and possibly blowing out the highlights. The concept of DR may be supported, but the quality of both the darks and brights are being compromised at the higher ISO. I think that is what Thierry and Marc are talking about with respect to the shooting they do, both for the earlier testing, and for the actual shot delivery to a client. About the only reason you want to push the ISO is if you really need higher shutter speeds, as in Marc's case. I shoot this sort of stuff all the time (high ISO) with DSLRs, because I need high shutter speeds to stop action. The highlights and the deep shadows always suffer, but I get the midtones I need for most subjects.

    Thierry's comments about how the Brumbaer and eXposure conversions deal with the data are supported, in my view, and based upon what he has shown. I am not as convinced about some of the other postings, and go back to my original point, remade by Thierry in his ISO discussion, that all algorithms and conversions are not equal. While we may use C1 or ACR or Aperture most often, they are usually NOT providing as good a conversion for higher ISO files. They are being "generalists", by nature, and not taking the pains to deliver the details in the same way as Brumbaer appears to be doing for the Sinar files, and possibly Phocus for the Hasselblad files. I would think that C1 would be doing the same for the Phase back files, but I am not sure at this point.

    Sorry for the ramble. This is an interesting thread. What I think may be missing is some real objectivity about just what some of these backs can deliver, or more importantly, which software is able to extract the most from the files they deliver. I am pretty sure that software is not always the most common stuff we want to use for everything else, like ACR/LR, etc. Just my opinion.

    As for Marc's cowboy attire shots....I fully agree that he needed to shoot this with MF, as the client wanted a very large output print. This is exactly the thing that I keep fighting myself with some of my work.....the DSLRs will let you work with higher ISOs for shooting, but they are not going to hold up as well for really large prints, posters and banners that a client may want/need. They can do pretty well, but they still are not able to deliver the details as well to handle significant enlargement, from what I am experiencing.

    LJ

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