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Thread: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

  1. #1
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    So less than 24 hours ago, a well-used, but well cared for P45+ showed up at my door. (Thanks to Lance and Capture Integration!) Took me half a day to get used to processing the files, and clearly I've still got a lot to learn, but thought I'd share some images from todays test shoot. The images are NOT artistic. They are tests. This image was one of several tests for exposure and DR (and of course detail and color). The subject is clover on the floor of a California Redwood forrest, in full sun with shadows, at around Noon. LOTS of light in the bright area to nearly no light in those shadows, about 10 or 11 stops total range from dark to light in this particular image. Note that the brightest point on the frame in the tiff this jpeg was generated from hit 253 and the darkest hits 1.

    First full frame to set the scene (and yes, I know it's ugly):



    Here is the yellow crop area, 100% 750px X 750px area with direct sun and shadows to show detal:

    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    at what ISO?

    the detail is certainly there.

  3. #3
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    and other shooting details: exposure, aperture, etc ...

    Thanks,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    at what ISO?

    the detail is certainly there.

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    Workshop Member lance_schad's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Jack enjoy the system! Looking to forward to you sharing virtues of it with everyone and creating beautiful images!!!!!
    Have a good weekend.
    L

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Nothing like those early "Wow, I can't believe the resolution, DR, etc." moments. Looks good Jack, hope you enjoy it.

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by lance_schad View Post
    Jack enjoy the system! Looking to forward to you sharing virtues of it with everyone and creating beautiful images!!!!!
    Have a good weekend.
    L
    Hi Lance,
    Not just the virtues... We want the Good, the Bad and the Ugly too

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Congratulations Jack,

    This is all so exciting for me because there will be so much used equipment to choose from in a couple of years when I'm ready and all you guys are on to the next round of upgrades.

    Enjoy it. Cant wait until the next workshop but there are new rules....39mp can't be pointed at anyone's face close enough that a 100% crop is bigger than life size.

  8. #8
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Sorry guys, the full data for the above image is ISO 100, 1/40th at f11, 80mm lens on my Mamiya.
    Jack
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Congratulations Jack,

    This is all so exciting for me because there will be so much used equipment to choose from in a couple of years when I'm ready and all you guys are on to the next round of upgrades.

    Enjoy it. Cant wait until the next workshop but there are new rules....39mp can't be pointed at anyone's face close enough that a 100% crop is bigger than life size.
    times 2!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  10. #10
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Jack,

    would it be possible to make some tests with the P45+ at higher ISOs, up to 800 and with about the same light conditions as my own eMotion 75 ISO 800 (1/40th at f 5.6) with strong highlights and shadows?

    That would be nice and we could have a nice comparison.

    Thanks anyway,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Sorry guys, the full data for the above image is ISO 100, 1/40th at f11, 80mm lens on my Mamiya.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Hi Lance,
    Not just the virtues... We want the Good, the Bad and the Ugly too
    So here you go with the ugly

    This image was set up specifically as an ISO torture test. First the full image to give you the scale, then I'll explain the side-by-side crops:



    Now for the details on this test. The main shot is ISO 100, 0.3 secs at f8, 80mm lens. For the high ISO, I went to 800 and used -1 EV, 1/50th at f8, then pushed in C1 +1 EV for an effective ISO 1600. Now to be honest, I expected the file to simply fall apart. But it didn't completely, and moreover it held together well enough to remain usable IMO. Not perfect for sure, but usable, especially keeping in mind the minute scale of detail you are looking at on this 100% crop. Also note that these were only processed in C1, though at slightly different settings for sharpening and noise, and NO 3rd party NR software run at all, which no doubt could do even better. The wind was blowing the ferns around, so there was some subject motion -- a real-life situation where the slow shutter speed versus higher ISO trade-offs needed to be considered. ISO 100 on left, ISO 1600 on right:



    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Thierry, here is an ISO 800 direct exposure, cropped similar to above. Exposure here was 1/25th at f8, and again, processed only in C1 and cropped in CS3, no 3rd party NR:

    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Jack,
    It's simply terrible compared to Thierry's ISO 800 sample from his e75lv.
    Isn't it obvious?

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Maybe, but it's not the same shooting conditions nor the same processing, so no, it's not obvious to me... To wit, Thierry's shot does not contain anywhere near the fine detail in these shots, just a few big, broad leaves, and not much high frequency detail. To do a real comparison, we need to have the cameras side-by-side, shooting the same subject, then optimally process each so we can see net noise versus net detail. Until we can do that, we're comapring apples and peaches... I'll try and shoot a similar leaf to Thierry's over the next few days and I'll use my 110 F lens at f5.6 and try to have the lighting make a 1/40th sec exposure at ISO 800. That will be a better comparative than this image. Let's also keep in mind I have been fiddling with the software for all of a few hours, so there is likely more than a little user error here

    Just found this. This has a broader leaf than the ferns, but still much smaller than Thierry's, but is from a different part of the same image as above. Looks a lot cleaner to me, and it's from the same file:

    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  15. #15
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Thanks Jack!

    If I compare this now with my own ISO 800:

    - my shot was taken at 1/40th at f 5.6, about 2/3 underexposed, thus 1/20th at f 5.6 1/3 at ISO 800

    therefore I think we can easily compare the 2 from here:

    Jack: I think you've done something the wrong way. I can't honestly believe that this is the best quality one can get at this ISO setting.

    Best regards,
    Thierry





    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    So here you go with the ugly

    This image was set up specifically as an ISO torture test. First the full image to give you the scale, then I'll explain the side-by-side crops:

    Cheers,

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Congratulations Jack - great choice in back!

    windy conditions = movement = apparent poor resolution lol @ pixel peepers.

  17. #17
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Jack,

    I wish and hope that you could do another test, but frankly speaking, that isn't good in this 100% crops, even if there are smaller details in your shot, this won't change things, you've lost all kind of details, micro contrast and there are artifacts all over the image.

    I am surprised and still thinking that this isn't what it should be.

    here I found some smaller and finer details in my sample:

    Best regards,
    Thierry



    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Maybe, but it's not the same shooting conditions nor the same processing, so no, it's not obvious to me... To wit, Thierry's shot does not contain anywhere near the fine detail in these shots, just a few big, broad leaves, and not much high frequency detail. To do a real comparison, we need to have the cameras side-by-side, shooting the same subject, then optimally process each so we can see net noise versus net detail. Until we can do that, we're comapring apples and peaches... I'll try and shoot a similar leaf to Thierry's over the next few days and I'll use my 110 F lens at f5.6 and try to have the lighting make a 1/40th sec exposure at ISO 800. That will be a better comparative than this image.

    Just found this. This has a broader leaf than the ferns, but still much smaller than THierry's, but is from a different part of the same image as above. Looks a lot cleaner to me, and it's from the same file:


  18. #18
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Thierry, how far away were you from your subject? I was about 10 meters at least form the leaf in the second image. I suspect you were a lot closer to your plant. I will try another plant in the coming week.

    And yes, I really don't know what I'm doing yet. Also, this was a pretty windy outdoor setting if this image and th plants are moving quite a bit, so it's not detail I'm looking at in this one.
    Jack
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Thierry,
    Every time I look at those ISO 800 shots of yours I check the clock to see how much longer I have to wait for my new back.

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Congratulations Jack - great choice in back!

    windy conditions = movement = apparent poor resolution lol @ pixel peepers.
    Indeed, and the wind was blowing pretty well. I am looking at noise only in this one, not detail --- For detail, see the clovers above

    Loving this back Peter -- a lot to be said for bolting it on the camera and shooting. Have not even cracked the instruction book, just fuddled my way through the on-screen menus and had it all set up in about three minutes, including the correct date and time!
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  21. #21
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Jack,

    Yes, I was closer, obviously, at about 5 meters, may be even a bit less.

    But this doesn't change anything significantly and isn't the reason for the problems shown with your samples.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Thierry, how far away were you from your subject? I was about 10 meters at least form the leaf in the second image. I suspect you were a lot closer to your plant. I will try another plant in the coming week.

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Yeah the resolution in these mega-pixel Big Boys is pretty awesome....they like to be fed on a lot of light too.. Wost thing about this MFD caper is that really there are no technical excuses for shitty shooting anymore !!! LOL

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Jack,

    Yes, I was closer, obviously, at about 5 meters, may be even a bit less.

    But this doesn't change anything significantly and isn't the reason for the problems shown with your samples.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    What problems do you see in the first shot of the clover?

    Also, how does the Sinar hold up to images like that one; do you have any comparable extreme brightness range images to share?
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  24. #24
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    I don't know which 1st "clover" shot you mean, Jack. But the 100% details samples show all the same, a lack of details, micro-contrast and artifacts.
    Do you have may be a part of the image in focus which can be shown at 100%?

    As I can guess, the part of your first image in post N1 which appears to be in focus is a bit more in the front of the 100% details shown with ISO 100 and 800. May be show a 100% detail of this part in real focus?

    Thanks and best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    What problems do you see in the first shot of the clover?

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    I don't know which 1st "clover" shot you mean, Jack. But the 100% details samples show all the same, a lack of details, micro-contrast and artifacts.
    Do you have may be a part of the image in focus which can be shown at 100%?

    As I can guess, the part of your first image in post N1 which appears to be in focus is a bit more in the front of the 100% details shown with ISO 100 and 800. May be show a 100% detail of this part in real focus?

    Thanks and best regards,
    Thierry
    No offense, but the very first post includes a 100% crop and is showing FAR more detail than any crop you have posted here. Look at the detail in the clover petals and the dead leaf in the first post. Show me something similar from the Sinar that you think is better; a small leaf at about 7 meters distance with your 80mm lens that shows more detail please. And if it includes as much range of light as that one of mine, so much the better

    As for the side-by-side ISO 100 and 1600 crops being in focus, as I mentioned THE WIND WAS BLOWING so the parts at the focus plane are not sharp anyway -- I simply chose a part of the image that showed a range of tones and noise.

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Jack,

    You might try dialing down the noise sliders in C1. I've found they pretty much obliterate detail even on the D3 at higher ISOs. By the way, congratulations on your new back.

    Greg

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    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    I can't imagine what distance could have to do with noise. But certainly it takes a little bit of practice with the phase files and C1 to figure out how to make them really sing. So far, however, I'd have to agree with BJNY. Those samples at least what you've posted look terrible in comparison to Thierry's Sinar sample.

    I will say that Lance has provided me with ISO 800 p45+ samples which looked very good indeed so I know at least under certain conditions its possible. They did look better than what you've posted.

    Jack the profile used can also make a difference - were you using the outdoor daylight or the product flash profile?

  28. #28
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Jack,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    No offense, but the very first post includes a 100% crop and is showing FAR more detail than any crop you have posted here.
    I did not mean to offend you, and you seem to take my remarks wrongly: I think we are all professionals and adults to be able to speak and discuss something, even if we don't agree. But you have to be honest and agree here that what is shown is simply not of good IQ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Look at the detail in the clover petals and the dead leaf in the first post. Show me something similar from the Sinar that you think is better; a small leaf at about 7 meters distance with your 80mm lens that shows more detail please. And if it includes as much range of light as that one of mine, so much the better
    As for the side-by-side ISO 100 and 1600 crops being in focus, as I mentioned THE WIND WAS BLOWING so the parts at the focus plane are not sharp anyway -- I simply chose a part of the image that showed a range of tones and noise.
    First correction: I did not use a 80mm lens, but the Zeiss 110/f2.

    But do you honestly think that there are no details in my sample?! In this case I guess that we don't have the same definition of what is details.

    There are details in my samples: all the 100% details show sharpness, deep clean shadows and detailed highlights, with no painterly look and artifacts. I think everybody would agree to this (and has already). I think I have put enough 100% crops to show these details, with shadows going from deep black to whites, and in-between a tonal range and details everywhere, including in the deep shadows and in the highlights.

    I have even put at disposal the raw DNG of this image, for download and for people to check by themselves. I don't think that from this DNG one can say that there are no details and no tonal range.

    I am ready to believe that the P45+ can do better at this setting, but please don't compare this with my sample and say that you have more details: all parts of the image and details shown have a very strong painterly look, which implies for me that there was NR going on, and even a pretty strong one. I would really check your NR setting in C1: it MUST be on and set to nearly maximum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    As for the side-by-side ISO 100 and 1600 crops being in focus, as I mentioned THE WIND WAS BLOWING so the parts at the focus plane are not sharp anyway -- I simply chose a part of the image that showed a range of tones and noise.

    Cheers,
    You say that it was windy, but I can see some pretty sharp parts in the image: when you have a look at your first posted ISO 100 detail 100% you can easily see that the thin grass strands are exactly in the focus plane and sharp or sharper than the rest. Now look at the same detail with the ISO 800 and check what happens with these thin grass strands.

    And to be honest, with the risk of being told to have a biased behaviour or an agenda here: I even think that the ISO 100 does not look good at all.

    Jack: please check again your PP and what could have been going wrong or do this test again. I don't believe that this is the best one can get.

    One further thing makes me think that something went wrong with your provided ISO 800 sample: you said that you had 1/25th at f8 with ISO 800: this seems pretty strange to me. Are you sure? What I mean, is that you should have a much shorter exposure time or smaller aperture (more closed) with this light conditions, IMO.

    I have just shot some snapshots this afternoon with my Lumix 10 MPx at ISO 800 and 1600, on some very contrasty subjects: to get the perfect exposure I have to expose at 1/200 minimum at f8 (to under-expose like your sample, even 1/400).

    Also in my eMotion 75 ISO 800 sample: I was shooting in the very early morning time, when the sun at the horizon, and my exposure was 1/40th at f5.6. From your image, its highlights and shadows, I deduct or guess that the sun was already high or at least higher than for my test, and thus much more light available. Yes the contrast may be 12 stops, so does my sample (measured with a spot-meter), but the quantity of light available was much less in my image. In fact I believe that your ISO 800 might in fact be over-exposed.

    But please and again, don't take this as a bashing against you or a product. It is not. I am simply a professional who cannot say that what is shown is good.

    Thanks and best regards,
    Thierry
    Last edited by thsinar; 7th June 2008 at 04:47.

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Let's see, Jack has had the camera for 24 hours.

    Give it some time. It takes weeks to sort out how to get the best from each back/software/shooting technique.

    Irakly struggled with his Phase One P25 back for a week ... and couldn't even equal his old Kodak 16 meg back at first. That most certainly isn't the case now

    I got my new CFV-II yesterday and popped off one shot in the backyard with the new 40 IF. See attached, right out of the camera.

    Difference is that the light was nice, and I owned the CFV version 1, as well as have considerable experience with Flexcolor/Phocus as it relates to Hasselblad/Imacon backs.
    Last edited by fotografz; 23rd July 2008 at 02:28.

  30. #30
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Sure Marc,

    I understand this and I am looking forward to Jack's next files. I do certainly not mean to give a definitive judgement, but I can also not say that the quality is good, I would not seem to be responsible.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Let's see, Jack has had the camera for 24 hours.

    Give it some time. It takes weeks to sort out how to get the best from each back/software/shooting technique.

    Irakly struggled with his Phase One P25 back for a week ... and couldn't even equal his old Kodak 16 meg back at first. That most certainly isn't the case now

    I got my new CFV-II yesterday and popped off one shot in the backyard with the new 40 IF. See attached, right out of the camera.

    Difference is that the light was nice, and I owned the CFV version 1, as well as have considerable experience with Flexcolor/Phocus as it relates to Hasselblad/Imacon backs.

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    I really wasn't expecting to see such a different in ISO 800 performance. Either something is not working or set incorrectly, or this back really can't compete with the e75LV. The images are still usable, of course, but the artefacts from noise reduction are pretty extreme. Even the iso 100 file looks a bit 'brittle'. This is obviously not wind or distance-to-subject related either.

    It would be nice to see a comparison of shots taken of the same subject with these different backs, if only to eliminate these kinds or arguments and make the differences plain to see. I'll be happy to do it if someone wants to send me the backs

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Give it a rest you guys..sheesh what a load...

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    It would be nice to see a comparison of shots taken of the same subject with these different backs, if only to eliminate these kinds or arguments and make the differences plain to see.
    Well, there is a chance of this happening at the Lighting Workshop.
    I know Steve Hendrix is truly expert at use of Hasselblad, Leaf and Sinar.

  34. #34
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Dear Peter,

    I do see nothing wrong here or a "load". It is simply a discussion.
    May I refer to my thread and the questions asked, often sceptical ones, there are 7 pages of it and I have answered each single critic, negative or positive. Check it out.

    Again: nobody is putting pressure on Jack, simply saying that something must be wrong.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Give it a rest you guys..sheesh what a load...

  35. #35
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Give it a rest you guys..sheesh what a load...
    Yes, here we are in a medium format digital forum, comparing the performance of digital backs. What were we thinking! Sorry, won't happen again

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quite frankly, the "load" is that in terms of image quality ... in the same light, with the equipment/software in hands of those experienced with it, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE, or if any, it's so miniscule that mere mortals couldn't tell the difference. The constant implication that there are major differences is simply marketing hype by dealers trying to hawk their wares.

    Sorry, there are choices to be made in terms of operational and functional aspects to meet your specific needs, what lenses may serve you best, what software settings may get the best from your particular method of shooting ... but the basic performance of these backs is simply outstanding from all the MFDB makers ... and implying differently is a "load."

  37. #37
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Well let's slow it down folks ,we all seen the P25 plus ISO files also and they are very good and it really comes down to software for a lot of the higher ISO stuff. I know i am getting very clean ISO 400 and very nice 800 files from my back. i would not think the P45 plus would be much different than that to be honest. If anything the P30 plus is rated even higher by a stop. No OEM is going to embarrass themselves and say they have higher ISO' when they don't. Even Hassy is saying it will have a higher ISO capability in there next Phocus upgrade. So it mostly is a matter of software. Let's face a few facts C1 has been around a long time and maybe longer than anyone else so this is nothing new as more improvements are released for all the back companies. Folks are sitting back waiting for Phocus to come around to the higher ISO's. To me this is all great stuff and best for us the end user. I think we need to keep some perspective on this stuff because in the end as the user is what counts and the software from each company will push each other to improve and at the end of the day that is what us end users want.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    It would be unfortunate for this forum if a legitimate and relevant discussion led to hard feelings among our members... and I can see where this could happen if we continue in this vein. I don't see anything offensive about the comments that Thierry has made and nothing that could be characterized as "hawking his wares". To the contrary, he has suggested that the Phase back is capable of better performance than shown in the example and that perhaps the test is flawed. As for Jack, he's anything but a fanboy of any brand, despite the fact he chose Phase, and at 6' 6" tall, he doesn't need defending by anyone

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    One further thing with regard to this comparison. The 110 f/2 lens that Thierry used for his test shot is among the finest glass that I've ever owned. If you want to get a more level playing field I'd suggest using the 80mm on both kits.

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    I agree Thierry's post couldn't be more respectful.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    First off, no offense was taken by me at all. I have not had the back long enough to have even figured out how to properly process the files -- give me a month before you start bashing me or the back LOLOLOLOL!

    I do respectfully disagree with Thierry (and apparently a few others) in that my first crop does not show as much fine details as Thierry's plant crops -- IMO it shows significant rendering of fine detail, look at the veins in the leaf -- and more fine detail than any of Thiery's plant crops did. Yes, it may be a bit brittle, but I used other than recommended settings to process it

    Folks, we are all friends here, we're all in this together, and nobody is "bashing" anybody else's choices or equipment. The fact is any of these backs represent the pinnacle of digital imaging and we are all here in the spirit of learning more about them. And speaking for myself, I have a lot yet to learn -- compared to the more common digital cameras, MF is daunting

    I think Marc said it best in his post above -- ALL of these backs are very capable imaging machines and once mastered I am sure each will give similarly exquisite files. What is different is the UI of the backs themselves and the workflow of the processing software; this is probably where more of the discussion for the not-yet-committed should be focused. And for me, it would be of significant benefit to learn other settings folks are using for post processing their P files in C1 so I don't have to re-invent the wheel.

    I'll also add this for the record so there is no misunderstanding. I could be and would have been happy with any of the current Leaf, Sinar, Hassy or Phase backs. I am primarily a landscape shooter, so easy UI on the back controls with gloves on, and climatic performance and dust and moisture sealing were probably the most significant deciding factors. Landscape is often done in very early or very late light, so long exposure capability was definitely a consideration. (Landscape just as often has a LOT of light in it, so the faster shutter speeds of a focal-plane shuttered camera were also a consideration, but this led to my choice of camera platform, not back.) Confidence in my dealer and dealer support was another significant factor, so choosing a dealer responsive to my questions and concerns was paramount. Comfort with the software was also considered, and I was at least familiar enough with C1 to hit the ground running with it. Lastly, simplicity of use -- not needing to keep the user manual handy in my bag -- was important too. At the end of all of this, my personal choice was Phase, but the pixel-level performance of each back was the least of my concerns as I knew they would all be capable of delivering superb quality once I mastered the unique workflow.

    Stay tuned, more to come as I progress with this awesome tool!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  42. #42
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Jack,

    That's fine, I respect your belief. Just FYI, I did not compare the details in the leaf or leaves of my sample: it is a fern which is almost veinless, with quite a "plastic" and structureless look (I think I shall send you a sample from my garden to be convinced ), but with other parts of the images, like the stones on the floor, the water drops, the fine structure of the tree trunks, etc ...
    So we disagree here, but nothing wrong with this.

    Where I agree, is that there is not the same DoF as in your shot, due to the different focal length and aperture of course. So in this respect there is certainly more to see in your image.

    And yes, Jack, all these high-end backs are capable to give outstanding results, here I do agree as well.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I do respectfully disagree with Thierry (and apparently a few others) in that my first crop does not show as much fine details as Thierry's plant crops -- IMO it shows significant rendering of fine detail, look at the veins in the leaf -- and more fine detail than any of Thiery's plant crops did. Yes, it may be a bit brittle, but I used other than recommended settings to process it

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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Jack the one question I have is that the focus of the tree in the background just behind the green leaves appear to have different degrees of detail between the two shots. Since they were shot with the same aperture, I suspect slightly different focusing or could this be due to the NR applied even in the default processing mode?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    So here you go with the ugly

    This image was set up specifically as an ISO torture test. First the full image to give you the scale, then I'll explain the side-by-side crops:



    Now for the details on this test. The main shot is ISO 100, 0.3 secs at f8, 80mm lens. For the high ISO, I went to 800 and used -1 EV, 1/50th at f8, then pushed in C1 +1 EV for an effective ISO 1600. Now to be honest, I expected the file to simply fall apart. But it didn't completely, and moreover it held together well enough to remain usable IMO. Not perfect for sure, but usable, especially keeping in mind the minute scale of detail you are looking at on this 100% crop. Also note that these were only processed in C1, though at slightly different settings for sharpening and noise, and NO 3rd party NR software run at all, which no doubt could do even better. The wind was blowing the ferns around, so there was some subject motion -- a real-life situation where the slow shutter speed versus higher ISO trade-offs needed to be considered. ISO 100 on left, ISO 1600 on right:



    Cheers,

  44. #44
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Mark, it is probably C1 NR smearing the detail (L NR) and color -- again, I do not have enough experience to tell.
    Jack
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  45. #45
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Here is I think a more comparable example to Thierry's, at least from a capture protocol standpoint. This was ISO 800 at 1/25th at f4 using my older version 3 Hassy 110 F lens, distance is about 4 meters -- pretty close to Thierry's 1/40th sec and f4-1/3 with a newer Rollei version of this lens.

    Here is the full ISO 800 frame for reference with the approx 750 pixel detail area highlighted:



    Here are side-by-side 100% detail views of ISO 100 on the left (1/4 sec at f4) and 800 (1/25th at f4) on the right.

    Please note that I still do not have more than a rudimentary experience converting these PhaseOne files. Also note that I took the ISO 100 frame below just a few minutes earlier than the ISO 800 frame, yet the sun moved enough to alter the highlight hitting the leaf, so even these are not perfect comparisons. Thus, I think to do this test accurately and properly enough to draw a meaningful conclusion, we'd need a studio set with controlled lighting and have all cameras on hand to shoot the same image with the same lenses at the same exposures at all ISO's, complete with a McBeth chart in the image so noise levels in ALL colors and at all ISO's could be accurately compared. Anyway, I would still not draw any permanent conclusions since my own test is thusly flawed, so with those disclaimers here is my most recent side-by-side:



    I feel the heat
    Jack
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Jack why can't you hold that sun still . I think this shows the iso1600 are decent but there is some loss of detail.

  47. #47
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    No heat, Jack.

    But: I did not use f4 1/3 but f5.6 at 1/40th.


    Thierry

    PS: I think you agree now, that this shows a huge difference with your other sample. I do not speak here about details, but noise, artifacts and lack of micro-contrast.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Here is I think a more comparable example to Thierry's, at least from a capture protocol standpoint. This was ISO 800 at 1/25th at f4 using my older version 3 Hassy 110 F lens, distance is about 4 meters -- pretty close to Thierry's 1/40th sec and f4-1/3 with a newer Rollei version of this lens.

  48. #48
    Senior Member PSon's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    I did the comparison between the Rollei 110 and the Hasselblad 110 on the same digital sensor (Sinar 54H) and both are equally sharp with very high micro details. The Rollei has a little more CA than the Hasselblad version in the wide aperture range.

    -Son
    ALPA (MAX, STC, TC) | CAMBO (Actus DB2, WRS-AE) | CONTAX | HASSELBLAD | LEICA | DB (CFV-16, CFV-39, IQ180, IQ360, IQ3100, P45+) | Lens (Canon, Fujinon, Leica, Nikon, Pentax, Rodenstock, Schneider, Zeiss)

  49. #49
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    No heat, Jack.

    But: I did not use f4 1/3 but f5.6 at 1/40th.


    Thierry

    PS: I think you agree now, that this shows a huge difference with your other sample. I do not speak here about details, but noise, artifacts and lack of micro-contrast.
    Oh how stupid of me, of course you did -- but I'm not going to re-shoot at f5.6 even though it might be sharper still

    And yes, I see a significant improvement in relative noise here.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  50. #50
    thsinar
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    Re: The P45+ and DR. And noise. And...

    yes, exactly Son.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Pham Minh Son View Post
    I did the comparison between the Rollei 110 and the Hasselblad 110 on the same digital sensor (Sinar 54H) and both are equally sharp with very high micro details. The Rollei has a little more CA than the Hasselblad version in the wide aperture range.

    -Son

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