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Thread: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

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    Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Trading in my Canon 1DS111 for a Phase DT and a Phase 65+ back or the new Leaf Aptus II-12 back. (my wife is going to kill me!)The price difference is only $1300 more fore the Leaf 80 m back. Any reccomendations?What lenses would you reccomend? thanks for any help---Charley

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Sending over a helmet to start for the baseball bat coming your way from the wife. It has a few dents in it if you don't mind , It took a few blows itself but sort of kept the occupant reasonable sane.

    You meant a DF as the body. I'm a Phase guy myself and i love the P65+ ( I own the P40+ though) but there are some that like the Leaf backs either way they are both great backs. I will let Yair and Doug point out more measurable differences in functions.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase DF/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    I meant a Phase DF body---Charley

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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Guy--would you have any lens reccomendations--thanks---charley

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    The good news is that at this level you can get the dealer to work hard for you in helping you go through the buying process. Like Guy I also have the P40+ but also a Leaf Aptus as well and I can attest to there being some definite differences between the two platforms from a user interface and ISO range support perspective. They really are quite different in these respects particularly, with the Phase usability being much closer to what you're no doubt used to with existing DSLRs. I confess that I do prefer the Leaf on a tech camera.

    You really needs to get hands on to decide which suits you better and the dealers can help you with that.

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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Quote Originally Posted by cbserota View Post
    Guy--would you have any lens reccomendations--thanks---charley
    No question I do . price aside for the moment. One trick in this given the sensor size things can change around. Owning the P40+ is a little different than if i owned a P65+. Let me start with the 28mm for instance . Love this lens BTW and i do recommend it but on a P65+ you will most likely have some corner softness way in the corners at least until you hit F16 or so. Anyway on a P40+ it is a 22mm FF 35m lens than on a P65 it turns into a 18mm. So you have to watch yourself 18mm could be bit wide for you and in that case maybe a Mamiya 35mm would be better since it would be 22mm on a P65+. I know i just confused the heck out of ya and did not mean too. It's the P40+ crop that throws the curve ball . So lets just talk what are good lenses regardless of back size.

    28mm is just lovely and for me a very needed focal length

    Phase 45mm D lens this is new and highly regarded for all backs very nice to the corners and sharp

    Schneider/Phase 55mm LS . I love this new lens and it does have the leaf shutter.

    Here is a place you can save money depending if you like the Schneider glass or not. The 80mm D lens which is not expensive but extremely nice and sharp through the range. Also the 80 LS Schneider/Phase with leaf shutter. Here it is pick your poison but they are both standouts.

    You noticed I missed the 35mm Mamiya lens which can be a nice lens depending on the copy and for P40+ crop sensor users very worthy. Jack has one on his P65+ and likes it a lot. Here you buy used with the thought you can return it since you can get a lemon. I went through 2 first and just recently sold it but mine was good. Just be careful here its a older design but still good. There is a new one coming , question is when.


    Okay here we get into all kinds of choices the new Schneider/Phase 110mm LS lens has leaf shutter is very nice but i only used it once or twice but a big fan favorite.

    The mamiya or Phase 120mm macro in almost any flavor people love. You can find these used and they have different model variations but same optical formula. Someone can guide you well here.

    Phase 150MM D lens is IMHO the sharpest lens made in this mount. It's one of those cold dead hands lenses when you die. It's that good

    Mamiya 300mm don't let anyone kid you this is a great lens and you can getit at reasonable costs.

    Phase 75-150 zoom another very very good lens.

    These i am most familiar with and can recommend to almost anyone. i will let others speak of some other glass they like but anything new is good in general. Just have to watch some the older glass and if you sporting a P65 with all that resolution you will want good glass. Im just a lonely P40+ user looking to grow up IN SIZE. LOL

    I love my P40+ so just kidding about that.

    Anyway get with a dealer try the two backs out we have folks which are around to help support folks around here or a dealer in your area that may help as well. Lots of support here for sure so your in good hands and welcome to the forum.

    I really should add this disclaimer . I am a certified glass whore so be careful. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Guy--thanks for taking the time to respond---Charley

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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Have you checked the Buy and Sell Forum here on GetDPI?

    Sometimes you can get a great deal from folks on this forum. With your savings you can buy your wife some nice jewelry or take her to a tropical island for a vacation.

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    I was about to point out David's set-up: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21749

    Definitely worth considering....

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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I confess that I do prefer the Leaf on a tech camera.
    May I ask you why? (I'm getting closer to a RM3D and I'm open to all backs as long as I can use C1 :-). Thanks!

    --
    chris

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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    On the subject of the lenses, I have to agree with Guy on all counts. I own the Phase one 28, 55LS, 80LS, 110LS and 150/2.8 (there is a new 150/3.5LS that I haven't seen yet) and hold them all in VERY high regard. I have noticed a slight difference in the "feel" of images shot with the LS lenses (Schneider designed) vs. the Phase One (Mamiya lenses). I'm not sure how to describe it but it's as if the Schneiders rely less on edge contrast for their sense of sharpness. It's kinda reminiscent of the differences between the Blad Zeiss lenses (V series) and the Blad Fuji lenses (H series). Don't get me wrong, the LS Schneiders have resolving power that is a pixel-peepers wet dream, but they deliver it in a somehow more subtle way. I love them.
    The 28 does have some residual chromatic aberration (red fringing) which becomes more apparent with the P65 due to the larger sensor pushing further than the P40 does towards the outer edge of the image circle. In fairness, the software lens correction in C1 corrects this pretty well.
    The other drawback with the 28 is the use of a fixed petal lens hood makes it difficult to filter the front of this lens. And despite lots of heated (and often ill-informed) debate in various forums, there is still a need in some situations for front filtration.
    If you are a true short-lens freak (I confess to having a severe case of this wallet-emptying affliction), then I think the better solution is to have a tech camera solution in tandem, to give you access to the unsurpassed digital wide-andgles from both Schneider Kreutznach and Rodenstock. I currently run a 24 Schneider and 35 Rodenstock and they both leave the Phase28 for dead. For the record, I currently run a Horseman SW-DII and am about to move to the Alpa STC. Frankly though, it's the lens that does the job, not the camera, so try a few (Cambo, Sinar, Arca-Swiss, Linhof etc) and buy the one that suits your methods, but put your money into the lenses.
    I currently run a P65+ and have just been informed that I will have the Leaf Aptus 12 in my hands in January, so I'll post some comparison notes once I've shot with both for a bit.

    PS. My wife approved the purchase of the Leaf but my, my, what a series if arguments.....

    Siebel

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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    same feeling on the Schneiders. They just have a nice look to the images, it's not clinical which I like.

    Actually very tempted to sell my 28mm and get a Alpa TC with 24mm. I have seen one used and i'm chomping on my lip right now. I need a way bigger helmet.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Actually very tempted to sell my 28mm and get a Alpa TC with 24mm. I have seen one used and i'm chomping on my lip right now. I need a way bigger helmet.
    Guy - get the new Alpa STC and not the TC, trade in the P40+ for a P65+ - or wait for the 85+ - then without the crop factor you can go for the new Schneider 28 (which might be better than the 24), and you can throw out the helmet because nothing is going to protect you from the potential blow that is coming!

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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Hell this is beyond a bat more like a Glock 9mm with a extra clip for good measure. Or i have to send Steven back to law school for a divorce degree. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Quote Originally Posted by cly View Post
    May I ask you why? (I'm getting closer to a RM3D and I'm open to all backs as long as I can use C1 :-). Thanks!

    --
    chris
    I found the utility of the Leaf interface and the absence of the need for either a wake up cable or having to leave the back on (Phase One) to be much easier to use with the Leaf. The Leaf has a dedicated LF mode for use with tech cams. The fan doesn't bother me out in the field and I don't have to worry about heat build up/noise as I might with the Phase One. I recently purchased a Kapture Group One Shot release - maybe this'll change my mind on this.

    I personally like the graphical interface of the Leaf and the ability to zoom in and also set white balance on screen with the stylus. The display is also crisper for focus checking - something the P40+ I have does pretty badly IMHO. I'm still working through having to basically ignore the softness of the image on the LCD and trusting that when I view in Capture One that the images will be razor sharp after all.

    For a tech camera I didn't find the ISO restrictions of the Leaf to be a problem especially since the DR of the backs give you a lot of freedom to be loose with manually counting off exposure > 1s anyway.

    Now on the 645DF I'd completely change my view. The P40+ is a much more integrated and easier to use system - in my view, significantly so (at least compared to my Aptus 65).

    From my knowledge of the P65+ it's functionally identical to the P40+ so I'm sure the same observations would apply.
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 17th December 2010 at 12:57.

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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Actually very tempted to sell my 28mm and get a Alpa TC with 24mm. I have seen one used and i'm chomping on my lip right now. I need a way bigger helmet.
    Guy - let me know if you decide to do this. The 28mm is the missing link in my home for Guy Mancuso/Jack Flesher cast off Mamiya / Phase lens collection.

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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Noodling Noodling. Thinking Thinking Thinking .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I found the utility of the Leaf interface and the absence of the need for either a wake up cable or having to leave the back on (Phase One) to be much easier to use with the Leaf. The Leaf has a dedicated LF mode for use with tech cams. The fan doesn't bother me out in the field and I don't have to worry about heat build up/noise as I might with the Phase One. I recently purchased a Kapture Group One Shot release - maybe this'll change my mind on this.

    I personally like the graphical interface of the Leaf and the ability to zoom in and also set white balance on screen with the stylus. The display is also crisper for focus checking - something the P40+ I have does pretty badly IMHO. I'm still working through having to basically ignore the softness of the image on the LCD and trusting that when I view in Capture One that the images will be razor sharp after all.

    For a tech camera I didn't find the ISO restrictions of the Leaf to be a problem especially since the DR of the backs give you a lot of freedom to be loose with manually counting off exposure > 1s anyway.

    Now on the 645DF I'd completely change my view. The P40+ is a much more integrated and easier to use system - in my view, significantly so (at least compared to my Aptus 65).

    From my knowledge of the P65+ it's functionally identical to the P40+ so I'm sure the same observations would apply.
    I agree with you .There is one other feature however - the rotating sensor that makes the Leaf the choice for a tech camera. I also like the way you can use the screen/stylus to embed the lens size and make notes on the file - very useful.

    Cheers JOHN

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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Actually very tempted to sell my 28mm and get a Alpa TC with 24mm. I have seen one used and i'm chomping on my lip right now. I need a way bigger helmet.[/QUOTE]

    Guy, after you put on the new helmet (the one with the extra kevlar panels), consider this ....

    You KNOW that P40+ of yours is going to grow up one day. When it does, it will stand at least 60.5 or maybe even 80 megapixels tall. At this sensor size, the 24 is next to useless unless you are cropping off the top and bottom third of the
    frame all of the time. Even then, you will suffer from the striping artefact that is the product of light striking the sensor at such an obtuse angle.Not much chop I'm afraid.
    You'll end up like me, with a 24mm Schneider Apo Digitar collecting dust in the cupboard. Hey, but you'll have a pretty little Alpa TC (but you'll be secretly lusting over its newborn sister, the STC).
    Get one of the semi-retrofocus lenses from Rodenstock from the beginning.
    You'll have less explaining to do to she-who-must-be-obeyed....

    Cheers,
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Quote Originally Posted by jps View Post
    I agree with you .There is one other feature however - the rotating sensor that makes the Leaf the choice for a tech camera. I also like the way you can use the screen/stylus to embed the lens size and make notes on the file - very useful.

    Cheers JOHN
    Unless I'm mistaken, the AptusII 12R (rotating sensor) is only available in the Blad V mount as its main market is square format users with waist-level finders.
    I agree it would be damned useful to people like me who run the 645DF in parallel to their tech camera.
    Hmmm....have to have a chat to the lads at Leaf....

    Yaya..... come in Yaya.....
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    Actually very tempted to sell my 28mm and get a Alpa TC with 24mm. I have seen one used and i'm chomping on my lip right now. I need a way bigger helmet.
    Guy, after you put on the new helmet (the one with the extra kevlar panels), consider this ....

    You KNOW that P40+ of yours is going to grow up one day. When it does, it will stand at least 60.5 or maybe even 80 megapixels tall. At this sensor size, the 24 is next to useless unless you are cropping off the top and bottom third of the
    frame all of the time. Even then, you will suffer from the striping artefact that is the product of light striking the sensor at such an obtuse angle.Not much chop I'm afraid.
    You'll end up like me, with a 24mm Schneider Apo Digitar collecting dust in the cupboard. Hey, but you'll have a pretty little Alpa TC (but you'll be secretly lusting over its newborn sister, the STC).
    Get one of the semi-retrofocus lenses from Rodenstock from the beginning.
    You'll have less explaining to do to she-who-must-be-obeyed....

    Cheers,[/QUOTE]



    Your reading exactly what the other side of my brain is thinking. Not sure I will grow up to 80 mpx but still can't leave it out. End of day i am still a gear slut and capable of making any insane purchase. LOL

    I have been questioning myself on this one and usually that ends the idea.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    Unless I'm mistaken, the AptusII 12R (rotating sensor) is only available in the Blad V mount as its main market is square format users with waist-level finders.
    I agree it would be damned useful to people like me who run the 645DF in parallel to their tech camera.
    Hmmm....have to have a chat to the lads at Leaf....

    Yaya..... come in Yaya.....
    Sorry been enjoying some sunshine the last few days (a much needed break from the cold and the hectic recent travels...)

    On the Aptus-II 12, using Sensorflex (at the moment only in Leaf Capture in tethered mode), you get a square ~41mm x 41mm frame, which covers the height of the 645 frame anyway

    Mechanically there is no room in the interface to implement a rotating sensor and the light trap and attachment hooks/ clips on the 645 bodies (H, C and M) will get in the way of designing a practical solution.

    For those using a tech camera and who need frequent vertical/ horizontal changes we make the 12R (V mount) and the 12 (AFi/ Hy6 mount) where the rotating sensor is a great feature.

    Also on a tech camera the grid function is very helpful for some

    Back to the beach

    /y
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: Phase DT/P65+ or LeafII 12 back

    Your reading exactly what the other side of my brain is thinking. Not sure I will grow up to 80 mpx but still can't leave it out. End of day i am still a gear slut and capable of making any insane purchase. LOL

    I have been questioning myself on this one and usually that ends the idea.[/QUOTE]

    This is not that silly an idea. Consider that the 80MP Leaf is for all practical purposes the same price as a P65+. That's the new REDUCED price for the P65+.
    I own a P65+ and have a P45+ and P40+ at my disposal. The extra real-estate of the 60Mp sensor really makes a huge difference to the viewing angle of your WA lenses.
    When you factor in that the extra image area has a larger impact on viewing angle at short focal-lengths than at long ones, your Wides get much wider but your teles don't get much shorter.
    Also, if the much rumoured 80Mp from Phase gets traction, then there is a possibility of a drop in price of the P65+, not to mention a bunch of s/h P65+ backs hitting the market as people trade up....

    Ok, I confess. I messing with your mind now.

    Cheers!
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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