Site Sponsors
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 75

Thread: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

  1. #1
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,802
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Worth a read: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/es..._cameras.shtml

    Mark's not shy about his views & preferences of the current market and I'm sure that it'll raise some discussion amongst not just MF but also 35mm DSLR shooters too.

  2. #2
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    I read it earlier this AM....my thoughts were:

    a)his setup with a P65+ and then an S2 was completely unrealistic for 99% of photographers....that is a huge investment in gear
    b)he was gushing a little too profusely about the S2 lenses...sounded like a bit of a fanboy after buying....mind you I loved using the S2
    c)the precision on the focusing/shimming from the Alpa. I've watched the review that he and Michael did of the Arca and they never really used it or had any instruction on how it is used and only had it for a very short time. So unless he went back and did more testing on the Arca it is hard for me to take all his comments about Alpa as gospel. I'm not in any way bashing Alpa but his glowing statements as to it being the best and most precise are a bit over the top.

    just my $0.02

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,587
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    I laugh how those guys always spout on about Hasselblad being inferior to Phase. In reality there's nothing in it. It makes you wonder why in every review they need to push the point. Good on him for being able to afford all that gear though. I'm certainly jealous.

  4. #4
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Sorry but his review was about as 'dentist' as would be possible from an amatuer MFDB user. Some of his comments about the pro photography uses for 35mm (or lack of) were ridiculous.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  5. #5
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    I enjoyed it.
    Sad to discover that all the pictures I've taken in the last ten years aren't really up to it (35mm sensor). But I'll struggle on manfully.

    . . . . . yep, you got it, I'm jealous of the money to buy all that kit too

    Just this guy you know

  6. #6
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    I like Mark, but I have to admit it's tough to defend him when he writes public articles in his gregarious fashion. At least he added the disclaimer up front about his personal biases...

    I am sure we'd all hope that an online gear reviewer would keep accolades on their preferred choices toned down to appear more balanced... Speaking from experience in writing reviews myself however, it is (unfortunately) very easy to fall into the trap of assuming everybody feels and thinks and sees everything just like you do, when the reality is we all have differing tastes, desires and goals.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  7. #7
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    I'm just going to not read it after reading Terrys first comment, it is that simple. I know when to stay out of a fryin pan and i know exactly how it was all written just from the comments, nope I want a happy week . Besides I'm trying to be really good and get my website back in business. Go Guy Go. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  8. #8
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm just going to not read it after reading Terrys first comment, it is that simple. I know when to stay out of a fryin pan and i know exactly how it was all written just from the comments, nope I want a happy week . Besides I'm trying to be really good and get my website back in business. Go Guy Go. LOL

    Very sensible.
    You can read my Why I'm not buying an S2 post for a bit of light relief! This article did have an effect . . . but not in the way intended!

    Just this guy you know

  9. #9
    Senior Member David Schneider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    509
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Seems like an article written for a photographer who wants to take the ultimate photo by a photographer who wants to take the perfect photo. And as he say, "Nothing is perfect."

    Those of us who make a living in one way or the other from photography aren't necessarily looking for the ultimate photo or camera. We're looking for a camera that fits how we photograph in our particular market; a camera that may give us increased quality, or increased efficiency, one that just plain makes us feel good when we use it. No need for his 8x10 view camera for a guy doing business headshots or weddings or seniors. No need for MF if you're doing sports and need 5 fps and ISO 5,000.

    Article seems like a waste of cyber space to me.

    However, I didn't know "The vast majority of DSLR lenses do not focus on a perfectly flat plane." As long as there's some contrast, I've never seen a problem.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    1,347
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    ...the reality is we all have differing tastes, desires and goals.
    that's okay. That's very good in fact!
    But why then talk about gear that you don't know? Or that you don't understand (Rm3D)? Or that you can't manage to use (Hassy... Phocus respectively)?

    Totally pointless article.

  11. #11
    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Draper, Utah
    Posts
    871
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    134

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    I got to know Mark a little at a PODAS and enjoy his opinions, and will admit he greatly influenced my choice of an Alpa system, which I do not regret.

    His overall premise that the photographer is the key was well stated and his examples were good. The idea that you must be familiar enough with your gear that it becomes an extension of yourself is also a valid point.

    Even mentioning his personal choices with a little background would have been OK.

    However, the section about the S2 to me belonged in a different article about the S2 itself, with a little more explanation. I'll admit I just skipped that section.
    wayne
    My gallery

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    259
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    It didn't seem like such a bad article, enthusiastic, but not too obnoxious. It was funny though, his comment about the S2 being what he needed, but then earlier in the article and later in the article he needed the MF for what he does. When I was working it was a given that the job and the clients needs and budget shaped the tools that were used. Sometimes, 8x10, sometimes 4x5 sometimes medium format and sometimes 35mm. It just depended. It seems to me he is saying just that. I think his biggest complaint was that small sensor enthusiasts claim that the smaller information gathering devices can equal or exceed the larger information gathering devices. I have not found that to be true, size makes a difference when the reproduction is large enough to expose that difference. A one inch print on pretty much any camera system would probably all look the same, except perhaps for DOF. I suppose perspective control would also matter, but at 30 inches a small sensor wouldn't have the same look as a bigger sensor. I am pretty sure that was all he was saying, other than to gush over his systems. I know pros who who would disagree with what system is better. I would like to think that the Alpa was a really good camera. For that many dollars I would have a lot of expectations. He also brought up a really important point and it is one that I wrestle with. How sharp does the picture have to be? Obviously it depends on the subject matter, but if texture is an element in the composition, then it has to have enough texture to give the viewer that sense of texture. I have always been the more is better kind of photographer, if MF was more than adequate and the situation allowed it, I used a 4x5, etc. But really, now I am re-evaluating this prejudice of mine. I am wringing out my D700 and trying to get what I can from it. I'm no longer a working photographer, but I like the camera, it is a nice tool. But I can see that I will never get quite what I could easily get from MF and 4x5 and I think that is ok. It is sharp enough and that is an interesting conclusion coming from a former Agfa loupe junkie. Joe

  13. #13
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Bill Caulfeild-Browne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Bruce Peninsula, Canada
    Posts
    2,535
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    184

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Well, I really enjoyed Mark's article and I feel that those who didn't should read his disclaimer at the very beginning. His comments about using the right tool for the job - your job, your style, your needs - are right on.

    I've never even held an S2, let alone used one, so I can't make any assertions about the camera. But I have shot with Mark on a number of occasions and regard him as an outstanding photographer. For that reason, I will tend to put great credence in his opinions. Yes, he does gush with enthusiasm a bit, but that's Mark.

    Am I going out to buy an S2? Nope - (Much as I love my M9) my PhaseDF and P65+ are already much better tools than I am a photographer. When I feel the tool is holding me back then.....but no, my wife would then be holding me back at that point!

    Bill

  14. #14
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    nice pictures accompanying the article though.

    I fall into the camp of those who don't appreciate the accuracy of the alpa, shimming, etc.
    The whole point of the tech camera is to depart from the centered, squared, etc. position as you see fit when taking the image. So what if it does not come back to a zero-zero position.

    I see the bigger issue is how you can see well enough or measure accurately enough to set focus. Even with the superfine helicoid of the Arca, your focus accuracy is limited by how closely you can measure the subject distance (assuming you have pre-calibrated the lens scale).

  15. #15
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    nice pictures accompanying the article though.

    I fall into the camp of those who don't appreciate the accuracy of the alpa, shimming, etc.
    The whole point of the tech camera is to depart from the centered, squared, etc. position as you see fit when taking the image. So what if it does not come back to a zero-zero position.

    I see the bigger issue is how you can see well enough or measure accurately enough to set focus. Even with the superfine helicoid of the Arca, your focus accuracy is limited by how closely you can measure the subject distance (assuming you have pre-calibrated the lens scale).
    Yeah, that is sort of what I was getting at with my Arca/Alpa comment. If I look at the white sands shot I'm not sure even printed really large if having the back shimmed vs not would have made any difference to the viewer of the photo.

  16. #16
    Member Jay Emm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    93
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    8

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    I'd be interested to know how hard it is to shim and fine-tune? Are these shims small spacers you need to insert by trial and error, or is there some kind of screw thing you turn to fine-tune the alignment?

    End of day though, as someone recently posted, whether Phase, Leica, Hasselblad, Alpa etc, no one except the photographer concerned is likely to know what camera was used when they drive by the billboard

  17. #17
    Subscriber Member KurtKamka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,232
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    26

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    I say bravo for anyone that is excited about shooting whatever it is they like to shoot. My question is, why would you buy into a system that wouldn't bring out a little 'homerism'. I've read a lot of articles by gear owners of every brand with so much angst I wonder if they ever get any joy out of photography.

    It's not a crime to tell me why you like shooting with your Hassy, Phase, tech camera, etc. In fact, it helps me understand why the camera works for you and how it might work for me.

    At this point in time in the history of the internet, we're all very capable of reading between the lines when 'homersim' becomes 'boosterism'.
    Last edited by KurtKamka; 20th December 2010 at 16:57.

  18. #18
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Emm View Post
    I'd be interested to know how hard it is to shim and fine-tune? Are these shims small spacers you need to insert by trial and error, or is there some kind of screw thing you turn to fine-tune the alignment?
    It's a relatively simple process. Basically you set a target up at a known distance and set the lens to the same distance. Then you start adding the biggest shims to the back. From that you take the two best or closest together frames in sharpness; then add the thinner shims between them, repeating until you zero in on the perfect combo.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  19. #19
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,802
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    It's a relatively simple process. Basically you set a target up at a known distance and set the lens to the same distance. Then you start adding the biggest shims to the back. From that you take the two best or closest together frames in sharpness; then add the thinner shims between them, repeating until you zero in on the perfect combo.
    The back plate is actually a pair of plates that are screwed together with the shims fitted inside. You add the shims gradually until critical focus is achieved. Typically you use a distant object (ideally infinity but distant antenna etc are ok) as a reference and use your longest lens to focus against it.

    Now I am biased, but you can definitely see the difference between the out of box back plate shots and those dialed in via shimming against your own back. Now you're not really going to notice at 3ft but if you are shooting landscapes then you can see the difference at longer/infinity distances.

    The shims are really really thin in increments of 0.01mm on upwards.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    1,347
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    use your longest lens to focus against it
    the longest? Misalignment is more critical on short lenses... AFAIK.

    ?

  21. #21
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    What's "homerism?" ..... Mmmm, donuts!

    Boosterism is easy to sniff out regardless of one's apparent enthusiasm for their photographic choices ... it's when one justifies their decisions by crapping on other people's decisions, backed up by a shady opinion stated it terms of scientific fact. Starting the article with a caveat doesn't absolve the writer of some sense that others are NOT dolts for the choices they made, as implied.


    As if everyone else is inferior to the writer if they didn't make the same choices. Boosterism is boosting one's self-worth on the shoulders of other lesser beings. Just state your love and enthusiasm for the work you do, and why the gear choices help you do it. Enough said.


    So, it did read like boosterism to me with a bunch of boring, over-used bromides peppered in to get heads nodding in agreement ... all punctuated by a phalanx of perfectly executed, uninspired derivative images.


    Perhaps Mr. Dubovoy would do better without any of that gear, or writing about it, and expand his creative horizons to actually create something rather than mimicking it with perfect tools? Obviously, we could all benefit from such thinking, but then we all aren't implying we're God's gift either.


    Personally, I'd rather look at a thought provoking image my friend Irakly shot with a P&S than one of his antiseptic shots done with a $50,000 rig. So, that bromide, while boringly repetitive, is true ... the gear doesn't make the photographer, and better gear doesn't change that.


    He has his opinion, I have mine ... and that is it in a nutshell ... like it or not.

    -Marc

    Oh, BTW, I have an S2 ... so it's not a case of "gear offense". In fact he makes me want to send it back

  22. #22
    Subscriber Member KurtKamka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,232
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    26

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    What's "homerism?" ..... Mmmm, donuts!
    DOH!

  23. #23
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    DOH!

  24. #24
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    What's "homerism?" ..... Mmmm, donuts!

    Boosterism is easy to sniff out regardless of one's apparent enthusiasm for their photographic choices ... it's when one justifies their decisions by crapping on other people's decisions, backed up by a shady opinion stated it terms of scientific fact. Starting the article with a caveat doesn't absolve the writer of some sense that others are NOT dolts for the choices they made, as implied.


    As if everyone else is inferior to the writer if they didn't make the same choices. Boosterism is boosting one's self-worth on the shoulders of other lesser beings. Just state your love and enthusiasm for the work you do, and why the gear choices help you do it. Enough said.


    So, it did read like boosterism to me with a bunch of boring, over-used bromides peppered in to get heads nodding in agreement ... all punctuated by a phalanx of perfectly executed, uninspired derivative images.


    Perhaps Mr. Dubovoy would do better without any of that gear, or writing about it, and expand his creative horizons to actually create something rather than mimicking it with perfect tools? Obviously, we could all benefit from such thinking, but then we all aren't implying we're God's gift either.


    Personally, I'd rather look at a thought provoking image my friend Irakly shot with a P&S than one of his antiseptic shots done with a $50,000 rig. So, that bromide, while boringly repetitive, is true ... the gear doesn't make the photographer, and better gear doesn't change that.


    He has his opinion, I have mine ... and that is it in a nutshell ... like it or not.

    -Marc

    Oh, BTW, I have an S2 ... so it's not a case of "gear offense". In fact he makes me want to send it back
    Hi Marc,

    I just returned to a regular computer from my previous posting (in another thread using my cell phone) and in the interviening time read the article and formulated my thoughts. They happen to exactly cooincide with yours Marc. You not only beat me to it but expressed it better than I could have. So I won't repeat what you wrote about the article and the author's stated impressions except to say I too would rather see the thought provoking, creative images of a photographer like Irakly than any image eminating from a photograher with the attitude expressed by that author. According to him I should feel like a peon for even considering the equipment I use (and the resulting images) and while I'm at it, should thumb my nose up at those that choose everyday P&S cameras for their images, regardless of the reasons they do so.

    Nothing wrong with using equipment that fulfills ones own requirements, but respect those for choosing theirs, even though it may not be up to ones own personal standards. At the very least simply explain what advantages the equipment you choose to use has for your own vision and work, and educate those who may not be fully aware of these advantages. Even calling it Boosterism is being generous in my opinion and I'm not personally attacking the author as an indivudal, since I don't know him, but simply the views he stated in his article. Yes starting his article with a warning that some won't like or approve what he's about to say, is simply self-seving in my opinion. I hope he's open enough to appreciate and understand some of the criticisms that some have or may state, for I have little doubt that he knows his stuff and I'm sure he's fine and capable photographer.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 20th December 2010 at 19:42.

  25. #25
    tetsrfun
    Guest

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Oh, BTW, I have an S2 ... so it's not a case of "gear offense". In fact he makes me want to send it back
    ****
    I sure missed that gear addition, when did you sneak that through the "back door"??? :>)

    Steve

  26. #26
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by tetsrfun View Post
    Oh, BTW, I have an S2 ... so it's not a case of "gear offense". In fact he makes me want to send it back
    ****
    I sure missed that gear addition, when did you sneak that through the "back door"??? :>)

    Steve
    It ain't over till it's over Steve.

    I'm testing the crap out of it, and if it meets my needs, I'll steal money from my own future to pay for it ... who needs a wheel chair in old age when you can just as easily crawl everywhere?

    -Marc

  27. #27
    tetsrfun
    Guest

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    It ain't over till it's over Steve.

    I'm testing the crap out of it, and if it meets my needs, I'll steal money from my own future to pay for it ... who needs a wheel chair in old age when you can just as easily crawl everywhere?

    -Marc
    That is the "fun" of being retired. It's an ongoing multi-factorial analysis of the declining cash on hand curve vs. expected longevity. The ideal is to have the check to the undertaker bounce.

    Steve

  28. #28
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by tetsrfun View Post
    The ideal is to have the check to the undertaker bounce.

    Steve
    Excellent idea...

  29. #29
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by tetsrfun View Post
    That is the "fun" of being retired. It's an ongoing multi-factorial analysis of the declining cash on hand curve vs. expected longevity. The ideal is to have the check to the undertaker bounce.

    Steve

    ...and I suppose Steve to also have one of the most capable digital cameras like the S2 in those golden years....so that at the very least, have the ability to document the often seen mistreatment and lack of respect the elderly often are often subjected to. As was pointed out in the article, no lowly 35mm DSLR would suffice for such a task.

    Serious though Marc, I've been reading with great interest, your thoughts and assessments of the S2. I'm not sure when or if, longer focal length lenses will become available, since I suppose 3rd party lenses with adapters loose AF? For what I often shoot, longer focal length lenses that AF on the S2, would almost certainly be a requirement if it's to sustitute for my use of full frame 35mm DSLR's....although I've been attempting to limited AF recently in some of the difficult work, to determine if I can get along without it for the time being and still nail the shots required. Sure there were the days before AF (my generation) and one got the shots, but today the expectations are much higher (client wise), not only for the shot, but a greater variety of them.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 20th December 2010 at 20:07.

  30. #30
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,802
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    the longest? Misalignment is more critical on short lenses... AFAIK.

    ?
    Alpa shimming - hey I'm just telling you what the folks at Optech's did with mine. Send in the longest lens so that they can calibrate with 'infinity' - remember, they calibrate the back/back plate not the lens. It is assumed that all the lenses from Alpa are already calibrated with their mounts and the body & spacers likewise.

  31. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Shimming the Alpa for a specific digital back is a painful experience - but just like learning to sharpen and hone your own chisels or setting a hand saw properly it is a good idea if you want to get the very best out of your back /Alpa /lens combo.

    Landscape dudes need the highest resolution and best DR they can get their hands on. Anyone else is overkilling with more than 30 megs.

    Just one persons view.

  32. #32
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Shimming the Alpa for a specific digital back is a painful experience - but just like learning to sharpen and hone your own chisels or setting a hand saw properly it is a good idea if you want to get the very best out of your back /Alpa /lens combo.

    Landscape dudes need the highest resolution and best DR they can get their hands on. Anyone else is overkilling with more than 30 megs.

    Just one persons view.
    I'd add a lot of advertising work to that over 30 meg list ... and architectural work ... and museum documentarians ... and fashion shooters depending on final output (fabrics) ... and those that crop or process heavily like me with my despicable Art Director habits

    -Marc

  33. #33
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    ...and I suppose Steve to also have one of the most capable digital cameras like the S2 in those golden years....so that at the very least, have the ability to document the often seen mistreatment and lack of respect the elderly often are often subjected to. As was pointed out in the article, no lowly 35mm DSLR would suffice for such a task.

    Serious though Marc, I've been reading with great interest, your thoughts and assessments of the S2. I'm not sure when or if, longer focal length lenses will become available, since I suppose 3rd party lenses with adapters loose AF? For what I often shoot, longer focal length lenses that AF on the S2, would almost certainly be a requirement if it's to sustitute for my use of full frame 35mm DSLR's....although I've been attempting to limited AF recently in some of the difficult work, to determine if I can get along without it for the time being and still nail the shots required. Sure there were the days before AF (my generation) and one got the shots, but today the expectations are much higher (client wise), not only for the shot, but a greater variety of them.

    Dave (D&A)
    In the meantime, an 1.4X APO Extender (or 1.7X like my HC extender) would help provide a longer 250/4.9 reach, with the same close focusing distance.

    Actually, I rarely use more than 180mm on a sensor this size. Remember you can crop in quite a bit, and still be as large as any current FF 35mm DSLR

    -Marc

  34. #34
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    In the meantime, an 1.4X APO Extender (or 1.7X like my HC extender) would help provide a longer 250/4.9 reach, with the same close focusing distance.

    Actually, I rarely use more than 180mm on a sensor this size. Remember you can crop in quite a bit, and still be as large as any current FF 35mm DSLR

    -Marc
    Thanks Marc! I'm not sure Leica itself is going to go the route of having long lenses (modules and such) for the S2 as they did with the R system. I believe its not the market they're focusing on, or at least not in their plans for the near future. As you pointed out, teleconverters will address some of my needs as will cropping.....although with cropping, it then starts heading back (to a degree) to a full frame DSLR (which has it's longer lenses) and therefore can keep its image full frame. I'm not negating the other advantages of image characteristics of the S2 even if the full frame is sometimes not used. These longer lens issues, along with the ability to retain AF with their use, keeps me on the precipice. The scales keep tipping back and forth as I weigh the pros and cons of jumping in, at least at this juncture.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 21st December 2010 at 09:01.

  35. #35
    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Draper, Utah
    Posts
    871
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    134

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    the longest? Misalignment is more critical on short lenses... AFAIK.

    ?
    In theory, once the back is calibrated at infinity for one lens it will be more accurate for all. This is actually very hard to do with a short lens, and almost impossible with some short lenses because they are designed to focus past infinity. Since most focus technical cameras by measuring and setting the lens, long lenses will actually be more critical for anything other than shots at infinity because they have less depth of field.

    In the video they use a 70mm lens and stress that the objects being shot to be tested are at least 20 times the focal length of the lens. I used some towers and cabling on a building to a couple of miles away, and ended up adding .03mm (i think). The difference before and after was readily apparent. Overall it took me about 45 minutes to go through the process.
    wayne
    My gallery

  36. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I'd add a lot of advertising work to that over 30 meg list ... and architectural work ... and museum documentarians ... and fashion shooters depending on final output (fabrics) ... and those that crop or process heavily like me with my despicable Art Director habits

    -Marc
    Marc - I am watching the 'painful' gyrations you are going through with the S2 decision and note that it has 'only' a puny 40 megapixels..

    IF I wasnt fully kitted in Hasselblad H and V and Sinar and Rollie etc..
    THEN
    the easiest decision (for me) would be a three camera system kit which would comprise of

    1. M9+M8 - no change all there
    2. Alpa 12WA and the new 12STC - with 24 and 35 Schneiders + a digi back ( no change - have to order the new 12STC )
    3. The S2 - ( do I add to my systems or do I switch?)

    now that leica have (finally) produced an adaptor which can use my Ziess lenses - the S2 is the DSLR on steriods that wins in ergonomics and delivers enough megapixels to keep me happy.

    I have no doubt whatsoever that you will buy an S2 and I hope you use it in good health and always look forward to your work and views
    ME? I am still stuck staring at Bloomberg screens inching closer to a retirement from managing other peoples money - to one where I just focus on my own..not enough TIME to do the fun stuff..
    S2?
    I will pick one up one day - no doubt wether it is this year or next ..that is all about me getting bored with my new milling machine and lathe...

    as for the LL - I thik we both stopped reading stuff liek that many years ago.

  37. #37
    Subscriber Member Jonathon Delacour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    454
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    From a post on Lloyd Chambers' blog titled Leica S2 focusing fact and fiction:
    Even knowledgeable users can be mistaken. Below is a quote from Mark Dubovoy over on LuminousLandscape.com in which he states that S2 focusing is ďdeadly accurateĒ, something Iíve disproved repeatedly and at-will with two S2 bodies on three occasions with all four Leica S lenses.
    It appears to me from the many hundreds of images I have shot so far, that the focusing in the S2 system is deadly accurate. Much better than the other MF systems. I wonder if this is the only SLR system on the market that has tight enough mechanical and electronic tolerances to actually guarantee pretty much perfect focus at the sensor. ó Mark Dubovoy
    Autofocus on the S2 might be better than some medium format systems, but itís also subject to severe backfocus issues at medium and distant focus.

    On Dec 14 (a week ago), I repeated Leica S2 focusing problems at will with image after image side-by-side with a Leica USA representative; those images are now in Germany, with my fervent hope that Leica will nail down the issue, since eventually Iíd love to own the S2, which has the best lenses of any camera Iíve used, of any format.

    I dislike reading erroneous statements in print about a camera system that will cost users at least $28K to acquire, so I felt it mandatory to point out this error. Mr. Dubovoy is welcome to contact me, and since heís local, Iíll go shoot his S2 with him and demonstrate the issue. Or be delighted if he has the magic S2 body that focuses perfectly, then wonder how one would obtain such a flawless body, allowing for the chance that there could be body-specific issues that happened to affect both bodies I tested, but not his.
    When one compares them to the rigorous testing methodology that Lloyd Chambers employs, the "reviews" published by Luminous Landscape can best be described as laughable.

  38. #38
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Thanks Marc! I'm not sure Leica itself is going to go the route of having long lenses (modules and such) for the S2 as they did with the R system. I believe its not the market they're focusing on, or at least not in their plans for the near future. As you pointed out, teleconverters will address some of my needs as will cropping.....although with cropping, it then starts heading back (to a degree) to a full frame DSLR (which has it's longer lenses) and therefore can keep its image full frame. I'm not negating the other advantages of image characteristics of the S2 even if the full frame is sometimes not used. These longer lens issues, along with the ability to retain AF with their use, keeps me on the precipice. The scales keep tipping back and forth as I weigh the pros and cons of jumping in, at least at this juncture.

    Dave (D&A)
    Yeah, really long, fast aperture AF lenses are the domain of the 35mm DSLRs for sure, I've max'ed out at 300mm on the H system and 350/4 on the Contax 645 before that. The HC300/4.5 takes the 1.7X teleconverter for a 510/7.6, but you lose AF. I don't use long glass much ... 180mm is about all I ever need even on a MFD.

    -Marc

  39. #39
    aweitz
    Guest

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    I've been going back and forth between Alpa max and Arca rmd3. The rmd looks like a fine camera but how does it address the sensor/shimming problem? The Arca super fine helicoid does not compensate for lack of shimming the sensor. Yet it's hard to believe that as well thought out as the rm camera is, that this remains a problem. It seems that the Alpa people got it right from the beginning. Why have Acra missed the boat? Or did they? Am I missing something?

    Anders

  40. #40
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by aweitz View Post
    I've been going back and forth between Alpa max and Arca rmd3. The rmd looks like a fine camera but how does it address the sensor/shimming problem? The Arca super fine helicoid does not compensate for lack of shimming the sensor. Yet it's hard to believe that as well thought out as the rm camera is, that this remains a problem. It seems that the Alpa people got it right from the beginning. Why have Acra missed the boat? Or did they? Am I missing something?

    Anders
    Without going into every bit of detail, you can calibrate the Arca yourself by going through a process similar to what was posted about how they shim the Alpa. From the calibration process you will figure out how much you need to move the focus helicoid (from the precise measured distance) to get good focus. This "correction" can be dialed in each time you focus with any lens.

  41. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Re calibrating arTec: the Artec is a different animal to Alpa. What I like about the arTec is what I don't like about the Alpa 12 system. The artec gives me a focusing screen (via sliding system) and tilt shift. So 'calibrating a back to a fixed mount' is not an issue with artec - since you have a focussing screen to see exact focus.

    What I dont like about arTec is what I liek about Alpa - with a 12 series you can shoot hand held in appropriate light conditions. Whilst arTec is tripod mount system - always.

    Different systems with significant overlaping functionalities with some not overlapping functionality - Alpa/Arca/Artec are all extremely capable systems.IF you wanted a tripod system I would rate artec highest followed by arca and then Alpa - difference being the movement capbilities combined with in built focussing screen system tilts towards artec for a tripod system. Hwever on price vs functionality - probably arca wins easilly.

  42. #42
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yeah, really long, fast aperture AF lenses are the domain of the 35mm DSLRs for sure, I've max'ed out at 300mm on the H system and 350/4 on the Contax 645 before that. The HC300/4.5 takes the 1.7X teleconverter for a 510/7.6, but you lose AF. I don't use long glass much ... 180mm is about all I ever need even on a MFD.

    -Marc
    Thank you ever so much for your thoughtful feedback Marc. For general work, 180mm on MF is more than sufficient and often shorter focal lengths are required. There are two areas though that an equivelent of 250-300mm preferably with AF (focal length in 35mm terms) is required, without resorting to cropping the S2 file. One is for concert work, especially in certain venues. The other area is for wildlife although this can be approached with manual focus (and hopefully with even longer focal length lenses than stated above). Thus a 3rd party lens on the S2 would possibly satisfy the requirement for wildlife. Definitely food for thought. Thanks again!

    Dave (D&A)

  43. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Hong Kong / Asia
    Posts
    524
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    From the calibration process you will figure out how much you need to move the focus helicoid (from the precise measured distance) to get good focus. This "correction" can be dialed in each time you focus with any lens.
    Terry,

    This assumes that the sensor is perfect parallel to lens plane, does it not?

    Or is there a way to calibrate also to make perfect parallel?


    Dear All,

    Any info on shimmed/calibration of back from Cambo RS users?

    What about how well the lenses are shimmed/calibrated to the camera system?


    Thank you.

    Regards
    Anders

  44. #44
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,658
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I enjoyed it.
    Sad to discover that all the pictures I've taken in the last ten years aren't really up to it (35mm sensor). But I'll struggle on manfully.
    I formated all my disks and kept my 5 P65 photos

    Looking for a new job now.
    Uwe Steinmueller
    -------------------

    Editor&Owner of Digital Outback Photo
    http://www.outbackphoto.com

  45. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    581
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    I formated all my disks and kept my 5 P65 photos

    Looking for a new job now.
    You could apply over at LuLa but your ego is a bit wimpy for there
    Cheers,
    Jeff
    www.jeff-grant.com

  46. #46
    aweitz
    Guest

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Without going into every bit of detail, you can calibrate the Arca yourself by going through a process similar to what was posted about how they shim the Alpa. From the calibration process you will figure out how much you need to move the focus helicoid (from the precise measured distance) to get good focus. This "correction" can be dialed in each time you focus with any lens.
    The issue is this: You can't simply dial in the correction if the sensor placement is skewed. If it's skewed by a fraction of a mm, then the Arca way is useless. You have to be able to shim from side to side up and down - and sometimes you have to cut the shim so that one side gets more of a shim. Alpa's way of doing it seems to be the most painless, in that you shim once for each back/sensor and then forget it.

    Anders

  47. #47
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,658
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffg53 View Post
    You could apply over at LuLa but your ego is a bit wimpy for there
    I know, I know
    Uwe Steinmueller
    -------------------

    Editor&Owner of Digital Outback Photo
    http://www.outbackphoto.com

  48. #48
    Senior Member doug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    708
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    ... wildlife although this can be approached with manual focus (and hopefully with even longer focal length lenses than stated above). Thus a 3rd party lens on the S2 would possibly satisfy the requirement for wildlife.
    If you end up going this route I'd be very interested in hearing of your experience.

  49. #49
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,206
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Comments on ego aside, I thought the whole benefit of lula WAS the one sided equipment rants.

    Pretty typical for that site but I still find them useful and wasn't too offended when I read the article mentioned. He does make a valliant effort to explain it is just HIS opinion.

    Anyway, aren't all digital mf'ers supposed to trash film and 35mm digital? I understood that was part of the mf creed.

  50. #50
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Interesting MF digital article over at LuLa from Mark Dubovoy

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    If you end up going this route I'd be very interested in hearing of your experience.
    Hi Doug,

    I am quite familar with many your fabulous images, having seen them posted here (on Getdpi) and also your interest and use in long lenses, for what you photograph. I had already had it in mind to contact you with any developments in regards to this (long lenses on the S2) if and when I decided to head down that route. So far, all consideration accomplished so far is unfortunately on paper. Having equipment in hand is really the only way to know what works and what doesn't...which in turn can end up being an expensive proposition. Of course this last point is all moot, if I win the lottery tomorrow Thanks!

    Dave (D&A)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •