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Thread: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

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    Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Hi There
    One or two of you will have been amused over the years at my anguish over whether or not to go Medium format. This was probably the closest call, I really was on the brink of buying an S2 and lenses (finances agreed by lovely wife, bank tame, all set to go).

    But I've decided not to. Two things really:

    1. I went through my best images over the last 5 years. Most of the good ones are 'reactive' shots, which are generally taken with a small camera which is at hand; either a leica M, or a dSLR (very few from compacts). There are some landscape shots, but they almost always rely on large compositional objects rather than blistering detail.

    2. I took the same shot with a 35mm prime with the Pentax K5, the Leica M9 and the Sony A900 (foliage and tree detail against the sky) and printed as best as I can at A2+ size (25" x 17"). Then I called in the good eyes (Silas) to give them an intense scrutiny.

    There was an obvious difference between the prints, but they were all perfectly acceptable from 18" distance, and some of them did really very well.

    Of course, I understand that if I'd taken the same shot with an S2 / H4d / Phase / whatever, then there would have been another step up in quality. I also understand absolutely clearly that once I've tasted that step-up it'll be hard to go back (just like I've been unsatisfied with the stream of compacts which have passed through my gear cupboard).

    But I'm not convinced that the people who like my pictures will have much concern for the difference, and I'm quite aware that there are some shots that I'll miss if I have an S2, which I wouldn't miss with an M9.

    It's very unusual for me to forego a purchase that I really really really want, and which I can (kind of) afford to buy. But after the serious looking and heart to heart I've had with myself I really think that I would lose at least as much as I'd gain (and possibly more).

    So I'm not Entering Here and Abandoning Hope . . . . . at least, not yet.


    ............. mind you, having thought of all this a noctilux seems like a snip

    Many thanks to those who've assisted in my decision making, whether consciously or unconsciously, particularly:
    Cam, Kevin, Marc, Silas, Tom.

    It must be time to open a bottle of wine!
    Apologies if this post seems pointless!

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Not pointless at all Jono --

    But you should probably at least "demo" an MF rig and then compare the same prints from it in a similar fashion. You *may* be surprised at the added subtleties in the MF print, or may not be. Either way, you'd at least know for certain what you were or weren't missing.

    Just a thought,
    Jack
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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    My logic train follows yours almost exactly, even down to allowing the buy-pressure to build until the last second and then releasing the pressure on something "inexpensive" by comparison. It's a scary thing, the mind. But at least you've left the door open for another run up. Everything changes eventually, who knows?

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Geez guys feeling like a failure here. I know following me around is dangerous as hell to the pocket. I still have hope for you Jono to slide down the slope. Just keep on fighting. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Not pointless at all Jono --

    But you should probably at least "demo" an MF rig and then compare the same prints from it in a similar fashion. You *may* be surprised at the added subtleties in the MF print, or may not be. Either way, you'd at least know for certain what you were or weren't missing.

    Just a thought,
    Hi Jack
    I did spend an afternoon with an S2, and I did do some prints, and I AM aware of the added subtleties . . . but I'm not aware that it would have much of an effect on what the picture says, and that was why I made the decision.

    I'm completely aware that having bought an MF rig and used it for a few days I would (like others) be overjoyed by the increase in quality / subtlety, and that I would never look back - and that my M9 kit would languish in the kit cupboard. The crucial issue is whether my pictures would be better . . . or just have more subtle IQ. My decision is based around the fact that more subtle IQ would be balanced by less subtle IC (image content) - and for me that's not a good trade.

    I understand all the ideas about 'a more considered approach' and 'making you think harder about the image'. But the more I think, the less the image. Basically my instinct is a much better artist than my intellect .

    I wouldn't have bothered to post this, but I know there are several others who are having the same internal dialogue, and there is such a deluge of articles like Mark Dubovoy, I thought my simple decision might at least help someone else to think hard about it.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    My logic train follows yours almost exactly, even down to allowing the buy-pressure to build until the last second and then releasing the pressure on something "inexpensive" by comparison. It's a scary thing, the mind. But at least you've left the door open for another run up. Everything changes eventually, who knows?


    It's rather like the decision whether or not to have another child:
    NO - is always conditional
    YES - is always final!

    by the way, I haven't bought a noctilux, I was just amused by the fact that it no longer seemed expensive!

    Oh! Wow! this appears to be my 6,000 post

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Geez guys feeling like a failure here. I know following me around is dangerous as hell to the pocket. I still have hope for you Jono to slide down the slope. Just keep on fighting. LOL
    Still Guy - at least I'm your only failure!
    Next time maybe

    . . . . . . . anyway - who's following who around here? isn't there a little matter of a Sony FF?

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Jono let you in on the biggest secret of all time. It is simply this the cam that is the most comfortable and user friendly to the shooter without looking up and second guessing yourself and letting your mind be creative and get what you intend to get is the best cam you can own bar none. Everything else is secondary to getting the image , image is first and whatever tool gets the image easily on the shooter wins the day. MF is not necessarily better than anything if you can't get the damn thing out of the holster to shoot , that goes for anything. Whatever you can frame and work better is the best tool. I love MF but I never or will ever say it is the easiest tool on me to shoot, far from it. It's work but I have enough experience to get around any barrier that try's to impede me.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Still Guy - at least I'm your only failure!
    Next time maybe

    . . . . . . . anyway - who's following who around here? isn't there a little matter of a Sony FF?
    Yea it is my turn on the Sony following you. Bad influence you are. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Jono let you in on the biggest secret of all time. It is simply this the cam that is the most comfortable and user friendly to the shooter without looking up and second guessing yourself and letting your mind be creative and get what you intend to get is the best cam you can own bar none. Everything else is secondary to getting the image , image is first and whatever tool gets the image easily on the shooter wins the day. MF is not necessarily better than anything if you can't get the damn thing out of the holster to shoot , that goes for anything. Whatever you can frame and work better is the best tool. I love MF but I never or will ever say it is the easiest tool on me to shoot, far from it. It's work but I have enough experience to get around any barrier that try's to impede me.
    Quite agree . .. and of course that's what my decision is based on. But I think the point of the S2 is that it ISN'T difficult to shoot with (at least, I didn't think so, I thought it was wonderful / easy / beautiful to use) - it was really about whether it would improve my photography, or (as I think) make it worse.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    But after the serious looking and heart to heart I've had with myself I really think that I would lose at least as much as I'd gain (and possibly more). best
    Hi Jono,

    Between meetings here so only time for a couple of sentences. Your statement above is essentially the essence of what I also wrote in Kurt's S2 thread. Many of us contemplating the S2 have to look at and evaluate the tradeoffs of giving up one of our present systems and it's inherent advantages (and disadvantages) vs. using the S2. Each persons criteria and requirements are different and you eloquently stated yours and made a convincing case. That doesn't mean there won't be future consideration of the S2 system, simply that at the present, the tradeoffs aren't balanced sufficiently for you particular needs/criteria. That of course may change down the road, when the personal criteria/wants/needs change. It's not that the S2 is going away and that if ever the time comes that it becomes the right camera for you to choose for your endeavors, it or it's successor (or possibly some other system) can always be purchased.

    Now, my day will be ending a bit later....any chance there's anything left in that bottle of red wine that you're willing to share? I think I'm going to need some too! .

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Hi Jono,


    Now, my day will be ending a bit later....any chance there's anything left in that bottle of red wine that you're willing to share? I think I'm going to need some too! .

    Dave (D&A)
    I'm sorry Dave, it's empty, but the boys seem to have opened another one, so you're most welcome!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Let me challenge your decision Jono ... which may also be pointless

    You may not deserve a MFD , but your work may. And in some ways MFD deserves you.

    Many of us here have been through an absolute train load of gear over the years. In search of what? The challenge of mastery? To improve our image quality? To better capture content? Shifting creative priorities? Simply, because we can, and it's fun? Or all of the above?

    I shudder when I think of that trek ... all those cameras, lenses, accessories, in and out ... next ... next ... next ... often punctuated with ... "what was I thinking", the latest being the Sony A55 ... not much money but those things add up over time to a lot.

    As a young Art Director I once had a mentor sum it up in a sentence ... "The trouble with making a decision is that it eliminates all the other possibilities". An S2 is that sort of decision, (at least financially it is for some). In a similar vein, my dear friend Irakly Shanidze (whom I think you know of) summed up it up in reaction to my S2P extravaganza ... "Now you have no where to go, Leica is the end." (I think his reference point is optics, since lenses are everything to him).

    I understand your concern regarding style and content, but not the reasoning. Some "take with" concerns are valid for some of the bigger MFD rigs, but the S2 is no more a hassle than carrying the Sony ... I've already done it. So, it isn't the Leica M that's in the cross-hairs, it's the Sony. I do admit that I'm examining my "photo equipment holdings" to jettison anything that isn't producing ... which I should have done long ago. Streamline to that which I gravitate to when shooting.

    I'm a candid shooter first and foremost and wouldn't even think of a system if it didn't fit that requirement ... which is why the S2 fell off the shopping list last year ... and went back on once they fixed the AF, and some of the image characteristics I had expected started to show up as more people explored the camera.

    My summation is that I call MFD a "long pants" decision. Man up Jono.

    -Marc

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    the precipice i slipped over was peering into that ground glass on my old yashicamat 2-1/4. Could never be happy peering into that little hole of the SLR again.

    got really happy with 12 shots per roll.

    down hill ever since

    different strokes for different folks

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Any true Leica nut will end up owning an S2 -itis just the way things are meant to be.

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Any true Leica nut will end up owning an S2 -itis just the way things are meant to be.
    Peter,

    truer words were never spoken

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post


    It's rather like the decision whether or not to have another child:
    NO - is always conditional
    YES - is always final!

    all the best
    We like to think we are in control and have options... you may be fortunate, but NO is conditional on contraception working ( my first wife got pregnant on an IUD), and YES is conditional on havering the hammer and anvil to produce ( It can be more difficult than ordering an MFD system!).

    ...and you can decide to have another child every couple of years.

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Not pointless at all Jono --

    But you should probably at least "demo" an MF rig and then compare the same prints from it in a similar fashion. You *may* be surprised at the added subtleties in the MF print, or may not be. Either way, you'd at least know for certain what you were or weren't missing.

    Just a thought,
    Remember the bigger kids in school who would always egg you on to do something daring which usually ended up with you losing a tooth or something? Jack is just as evil...

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Thanks for posting Jono.
    I am indeed having some similar discussion with myself - not about entering MF but to either add a Pentax 645D or not to and either to keep the Hy6 or not.
    I shot some images with my Hy6 which I like a lot, (this includes how the sensor draws but probably also how the Rollei lenses draw.)

    However I dont use it as much as I had planned. Why? its big and heavy, and its slow to photograph with, it is much more room for falure (slightly wrong focus, exp metering off, image review in camera doesnt tell that much etc., not much room for available light photography caused by shallower DOF in combination with limited high ISO, AF not capable for anythingmoving fast)
    The workflow takes much more time.
    One other thing is that for some reason I still feel somewhat uncompfortable in some case when I bring such equipment, because it jsut draws more attention and questions "how much does that camera cost"/ is it so much better than other cameras etc. I dont like such discussions.

    I think it also has to do with time - I am not pro and I do run a business + have a jung growing family + some other hobbies as well like paragliding for example. So time is clearly a limited ressource, as is room and weight when I am ouside with kids.

    I still think a S2 or a 645d would work somewhat better than my Hy6 for those times, but still not really small and why I would gain some IQ from the sensor I would loose some abilities regarding AF (shooting moving kid/ sports etc.) and low light.

    Comparing the size weight of an S2 or 645d to a DSLR isnt really fair - because you have to see the whole packageincluding lens, now compare a 50/1.4 or 105/2.0 Nikon/Zeiss lens with a Leica 75/2.5 or 180mm S2 lens.
    (The Pentax seems more compact in this area)

    If I was only shooting landscape finarts I would not question MF for my purpose.
    And one can allways own 2 o3 even 3 systems for different application. But then which one do you bring - I often dont go out to just and only shoot landscape, I want to do various things and be flexible.

    What I dont get is why we do not see MF-like sensors in DSLRs. The DMR showed what is possible. I am still hoping for something like that. Would be perfect for my taste. A S2-petit like camera with 24x35 sensor which takes Leica R-AF lenses (just take the same optics from old R lenses and add AF).

    But then you sometimes look at those MF images and are just blown away...

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    ... What I dont get is why we do not see MF-like sensors in DSLRs... Would be perfect for my taste. A S2-petit like camera with 24x35 sensor which takes Leica R-AF lenses (just take the same optics from old R lenses and add AF)...
    IMHO Leica under-estimated the demand for such a camera, just as they under-estimated the demand for the M9 and (apparently) the S2. I'd love to put my APO R lenses on this camera.

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Thanks for posting Jono.
    I am indeed having some similar discussion with myself - not about entering MF but to either add a Pentax 645D or not to and either to keep the Hy6 or not.
    I shot some images with my Hy6 which I like a lot, (this includes how the sensor draws but probably also how the Rollei lenses draw.)

    However I dont use it as much as I had planned. Why? its big and heavy, and its slow to photograph with, it is much more room for falure (slightly wrong focus, exp metering off, image review in camera doesnt tell that much etc., not much room for available light photography caused by shallower DOF in combination with limited high ISO, AF not capable for anythingmoving fast)
    The workflow takes much more time.
    One other thing is that for some reason I still feel somewhat uncompfortable in some case when I bring such equipment, because it jsut draws more attention and questions "how much does that camera cost"/ is it so much better than other cameras etc. I dont like such discussions.

    I think it also has to do with time - I am not pro and I do run a business + have a jung growing family + some other hobbies as well like paragliding for example. So time is clearly a limited ressource, as is room and weight when I am ouside with kids.

    I still think a S2 or a 645d would work somewhat better than my Hy6 for those times, but still not really small and why I would gain some IQ from the sensor I would loose some abilities regarding AF (shooting moving kid/ sports etc.) and low light.

    Comparing the size weight of an S2 or 645d to a DSLR isnt really fair - because you have to see the whole packageincluding lens, now compare a 50/1.4 or 105/2.0 Nikon/Zeiss lens with a Leica 75/2.5 or 180mm S2 lens.
    (The Pentax seems more compact in this area)

    If I was only shooting landscape finarts I would not question MF for my purpose.
    And one can allways own 2 o3 even 3 systems for different application. But then which one do you bring - I often dont go out to just and only shoot landscape, I want to do various things and be flexible.

    What I dont get is why we do not see MF-like sensors in DSLRs. The DMR showed what is possible. I am still hoping for something like that. Would be perfect for my taste. A S2-petit like camera with 24x35 sensor which takes Leica R-AF lenses (just take the same optics from old R lenses and add AF).

    But then you sometimes look at those MF images and are just blown away...
    Interesting comparison to my own experiences. I shoot in crowds of people all the time ... events, weddings and corporate work places ... and walk-abouts in major cities. I've only had a few incidences where someone asked me about my camera ... usually other photographers.

    One girl on roller skates in NYC did a 180 to ask me about the Hassey XPan I was shooting with, she was a photo student (I didn't mind as she was cute ). One person in NYC asked if my brand new Leica MP3 LHSA with new retro looking 50/1.4 ASPH was an antique camera And one person in Santa Monica asked about the 503CW with CFV Back because they were unaware that those cameras were digital.

    At weddings, any curiosity was almost always generated by Canon shooting Uncle Bobs who asked how many megs my Canon DSLR was (penis envy at work ) ... no one has ever asked about the H camera, not even once. I think it signals that you are a professional and don't need to be interrupted any more than one would interrupt a construction worker to ask an opinion of his hammer

    Weight size comparisons have to take into account bulk and configurations. One of the attractions of the S2 for me was that the 35mm DSLR like configuration of the body fits smaller bags than my H camera requires. Also, the S lenses, while not necessarily less weight, are currently all a similiar diameter. So, while my HC28 or HC35 are quite fat at the end (95mm filter size, plus the hood in reverse adds more) and do not fit the pockets of my Think-Tank Lens changing bag, the Leica S35mm does fit. Basically, I can grab the camera with the 70, and have the 35 and 180 in my lens bag for fast mobile shooting.

    Also, the S2 is much more quiet compared to MFDs ... quieter than my Contax 645 with it's gliding mirror, and a nicer sound than any DSLR I've used to date.

    All this doesn't mean it's right for someone else. I'm just sharing comparative experiences as a shooter and user of most formats in a lot of shooting conditions.

    -Marc

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Thanks for posting Jono.
    I am indeed having some similar discussion with myself - not about entering MF but to either add a Pentax 645D or not to and either to keep the Hy6 or not.
    I shot some images with my Hy6 which I like a lot, (this includes how the sensor draws but probably also how the Rollei lenses draw.)

    However I dont use it as much as I had planned. Why? its big and heavy, and its slow to photograph with, it is much more room for falure (slightly wrong focus, exp metering off, image review in camera doesnt tell that much etc., not much room for available light photography caused by shallower DOF in combination with limited high ISO, AF not capable for anythingmoving fast)
    The workflow takes much more time.
    One other thing is that for some reason I still feel somewhat uncompfortable in some case when I bring such equipment, because it jsut draws more attention and questions "how much does that camera cost"/ is it so much better than other cameras etc. I dont like such discussions....

    I think it also has to do with time - I am not pro and I do run a business + have a jung growing family + some other hobbies as well like paragliding for example. So time is clearly a limited ressource, as is room and weight when I am ouside with kids.

    I still think a S2 or a 645d would work somewhat better than my Hy6 for those times, but still not really small and why I would gain some IQ from the sensor I would loose some abilities regarding AF (shooting moving kid/ sports etc.) and low light.

    Comparing the size weight of an S2 or 645d to a DSLR isnt really fair - because you have to see the whole packageincluding lens, now compare a 50/1.4 or 105/2.0 Nikon/Zeiss lens with a Leica 75/2.5 or 180mm S2 lens.
    (The Pentax seems more compact in this area)

    If I was only shooting landscape finarts I would not question MF for my purpose.
    And one can allways own 2 o3 even 3 systems for different application. But then which one do you bring - I often dont go out to just and only shoot landscape, I want to do various things and be flexible.

    What I dont get is why we do not see MF-like sensors in DSLRs. The DMR showed what is possible. I am still hoping for something like that. Would be perfect for my taste. A S2-petit like camera with 24x35 sensor which takes Leica R-AF lenses (just take the same optics from old R lenses and add AF).

    But then you sometimes look at those MF images and are just blown away...
    Valid points, and shared as well. I love the Hy6 and its capabilities (which are vast) and the quality of good lenses. But it isn't a lightweight, and can be a bit slow to use (AF lenses help a lot). I've found it to be functionally fine, but its not a "carry everywhere" kind of camera.

    If one goes back to MF film cameras for a moment, they promised a slightly slower technique, and higher quality for the extra care. They were still portable and fairly easy to use. It turns out that morphing those cameras into their high quality digital equivalents isn't easy at all - the AFD and S2 are as close to that as one can get. Some would add the H series.... but everything grows bigger, heavier, etc. Of course the quality goes off the charts as well. IMHO, MFDB are really more akin to portable 4x5 field cameras, and are not a replacement for their older film-based brethren.

    The Hy6 is an amazing system and does many things very well, but taking it with a couple of lenses on a family trip just doesn't quite work ... an S2 (light, compact, etc.) is something to behold (with budget to match). But the problem still exists: shots taken with MF gear hold the eye with a higher degree of keepers. Just wish it were smaller....kind of like a TLR with a back, or even an improved DMR - to take all that lovely R glass.

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Hi Jono,

    You are being way too practical in your decision. Sometimes you gotta just say heck with it and get what you want and see where it takes you. In my opinion, you shouldn't consider the total cost of the S2 in making your decision. You should only consider the net cost if you buy into the S2 and decide later that it isn't for you and sell it. This net cost is probably only $2k or $3k if you buy new and maybe nothing if you get a better than list price deal or demo S2. When you consider that you are only risking ~$3k instead of $30k then the pratical side of the decision process changes considerably. In my opinion that is a small monetary risk to explore a creative passion you have been considering for a while. Plus, if you like the S2 as much as I expect you would, then there is no risk at all.

    Note: I pose this viewpoint only because you indicated you were in the financial position to afford the S2.

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Jono;

    Its a very slippery slope ......... glad you not thinking about mamiya, a gateway drug if there ever was such a thing!

    Dave

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Jono, unless you intend to change what you shoot and how and where you shoot it I can see little reason for change.

    FWIW, and looking at your work, I would have thought the Leica M9 would be the perfect camera.

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    This is all so sad! How to justify a Pentax 645D when good photographers are rejecting the S2?

    I am in a very pretty tropical spot this week. Yesterday the sun broke through the severe overcast for a moment in the late afternoon. Was the Canon/Zeiss with me to capture the golden light on the sand and trees against a stormy sky? Oh no. Only an iPhone.

    Between that and Jono's rationality, I'm tempted to toss all this equipment into the waves.

    Who am I kidding....

    Matt

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    ...Oh no. Only an iPhone.
    ...
    Matt
    The best camera is the one you have with you. The alternative: no pictures at all.

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    The best camera is the one you have with you. The alternative: no pictures at all.
    Horribly true!

    I'll post pics when I return from the land of international data roaming charges.

    Matt

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ... One or two of you will have been amused over the years at my anguish over whether or not to go Medium format. ...
    Anguish. ANGUISH?? Severe emotional pain and suffering... ?? Sheesh.

    It's a *camera*, Jono. Nothing more, nothing less. A page-long rationalization for NOT buying a hyper expensive camera that you don't need seems a mite over the top.

    Bah, humbug! ]'-)

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Jono,

    You have completely ignored the most important reason of all to get the S2 and I can't be more disappointed in you.

    There are thousands of people all around the world just like me who live our own wishful gear junkie lives vicariously through you - and have been doing so for years. I've been waiting so long for you to get to this point - I so desperately want to experience the process of buying and learning to use an S2 system. I ache for those moments of doubt, moments of despair and moments of triumph - and you've unilaterally decided to withhold all that from me? And everyone else similarly situated around the world?

    It is a sad day indeed. How selfish of you!



    Doreen

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Anguish. ANGUISH?? Severe emotional pain and suffering... ?? Sheesh.

    It's a *camera*, Jono. Nothing more, nothing less. A page-long rationalization for NOT buying a hyper expensive camera that you don't need seems a mite over the top.

    Bah, humbug! ]'-)
    I think it is safe to say the Jono gets deep satisfaction from his photography. I find his understanding of light in landscapes and still lifes to be exquisite. I can fully understand his angst about balancing technical image quality vs. having gear that will change the way he shoots or his ability to simply capture what he sees. So, yes I can see that it is a hard decision and yes I am interested in his decision making process even if it takes two pages to articulate.....and yes I do think your answer falls into the category of bah, humbug....didn't you just post a fair amount on how you decided to buy the E5?

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by dmpbyrdwatcher View Post
    Jono,

    You have completely ignored the most important reason of all to get the S2 and I can't be more disappointed in you.

    There are thousands of people all around the world just like me who live our own wishful gear junkie lives vicariously through you - and have been doing so for years. I've been waiting so long for you to get to this point - I so desperately want to experience the process of buying and learning to use an S2 system. I ache for those moments of doubt, moments of despair and moments of triumph - and you've unilaterally decided to withhold all that from me? And everyone else similarly situated around the world?

    It is a sad day indeed. How selfish of you!



    Doreen
    They should take this post and frame it as the pure essence of GetDPI
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  33. #33
    Senior Member GMB's Avatar
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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I wouldn't have bothered to post this, but I know there are several others who are having the same internal dialogue, and there is such a deluge of articles like Mark Dubovoy, I thought my simple decision might at least help someone else to think hard about it.

    Exactly and thanks for posting your thoughts.

    For me the question is not whether it would make my photography any better--I have given up on that idea --but rather whether I would have the time to put it too use. I am also still hesitating between the S2, which indeed is a charme to use even by someone like me, or going more radical with a Phase of Leave back and a tech camera with a few lenses to produce the landscape images I am dreaming of… But then I am afraid I would never carry that gear with me. And a stitched multiple shot with the S2 should get you very far indeed as far as print size is concerned.

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by dmpbyrdwatcher View Post
    Jono,

    You have completely ignored the most important reason of all to get the S2 and I can't be more disappointed in you.

    There are thousands of people all around the world just like me who live our own wishful gear junkie lives vicariously through you - and have been doing so for years. I've been waiting so long for you to get to this point - I so desperately want to experience the process of buying and learning to use an S2 system. I ache for those moments of doubt, moments of despair and moments of triumph - and you've unilaterally decided to withhold all that from me? And everyone else similarly situated around the world?

    It is a sad day indeed. How selfish of you!





    Doreen

    I need to use this with my wife . can I quote you
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    If Jono has let us down, Guy will you rush in to fill the breach?

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Sure just ship one over. have my big helmet on and hid the baseball bats. Oh and took the car keys away.

    Jono your depressing us you need just to man up dude. LOL

    Just say the word I'll call Leica for ya and have it delivered right to your door. LOL
    Funny thing is I can.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Sure just ship one over. have my big helmet on and hid the baseball bats. Oh and took the car keys away.

    Jono your depressing us you need just to man up dude. LOL

    Just say the word I'll call Leica for ya and have it delivered right to your door. LOL
    Funny thing is I can.
    I am sure that Jono won't mind as long as you wire the cash from one or your numbered accounts.
    -bob

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Bob it's really confusing not sure if it is in the Swiss banks or the Cayman Island accounts.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Bob it's really confusing not sure if it is in the Swiss banks or the Cayman Island accounts.
    That is why they invented post-it-notes so you can write down the numbers, pins, balances and your passwords for storage on a nice secure place like your monitor bezel LOL
    -bob

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Than my wife would find them. Than i will have a room with shoes and handbags. LOL

    You nuts.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    I have to hand it to Jono. Here I am, going back and forth on this S2 thing (just as Jono and I'm sure others are doing) and then clear out of the blue he steps up to the plate (do they even have those kind of plates in Cricket?) and mans up and decides to go with both his gut feelings and a well throught our rationalized approach in deciding the S2 at least at this time, is not the right choice for his photography. (phew, yes I know, a run-on sentence!)

    Jono, now that you've gotten to this point and most certainly have others possibly leaning in the same direction, don't go all wimp on us and do an about face....LOL! I don't know why, but something tells me we haven't heard the last of this

    Either way, your mastering of composition and light among the other great things we see in your images, aren't going anywheres, regardless of what system you pick up, now or in the future.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Can you use a Leica S2 as a permanent necklace, or do they sell Leica S2 broaches?

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    I think it is safe to say the Jono gets deep satisfaction from his photography. I find his understanding of light in landscapes and still lifes to be exquisite. I can fully understand his angst about balancing technical image quality vs. having gear that will change the way he shoots or his ability to simply capture what he sees. So, yes I can see that it is a hard decision and yes I am interested in his decision making process even if it takes two pages to articulate.....and yes I do think your answer falls into the category of bah, humbug....didn't you just post a fair amount on how you decided to buy the E5?
    I posted that I had decided to purchase the E-5, yes.

    I needed it, it was available, I'd planned to buy something else and changed my mind due to the additional advantages of the new model. I articulated them. It happened that I chose this camera, I decided to buy it for a couple of reasons, and I did. Done. On a scale of emotional severity running from 0 (I'm asleep) to 10 (my best friend just died a horrible death), I'd say it rated a 2.

    I certainly didn't go on for a page about why I DIDNT buy it. I didn't say anything about "anguish" ... there was no anguish, no 'running to the brink and being held back at the last moment' drama. I haven't told you about all the other wonderful cameras I've thought would be nice to own and didn't buy either. It's a camera, not a life requirement for my sanity and health. I get a bigger kick and more drama out of seeing a wonderful photo made with a 7 year old E-1 and a $30 lens.

    Bah, humbug. ;-)

    BTW, I get deep satisfaction from my photography too. Cameras are not Photography.
    Last edited by Godfrey; 21st December 2010 at 12:08.

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Phew
    so many responses. I can see:
    Agreement
    Amusement
    Questions about my manhood
    Whimsy
    Downright rudeness

    This evening I have to get something finished. I'll answer properly later on, but I am reading every reply!

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Jono feels offended that I made a tongue-in-cheek comment regarding his "anguish" over whether to buy a hyper-expensive camera.

    I'd have thought that the line "Bah, humbug!" followed by a devilish smiley ...
    ]'-) ... would indicate that I was kidding him a bit. But Terry seems to be offended as well.

    Well, on that basis I offer an apology ... there was no intent to offend.

    I do feel rather strongly that all this drama over the notion of buying or not buying a camera is just malarky and totally irrelevant with respect to a pursuit of and love for Photography. I mean, I felt the same way when I finally obtained the Hasselblad super wide I'd wanted for 35 years as it had been a fantasy for most of my life ... But once I had it, I went to work with it, learned it, enjoyed it ... and sold it when it was no longer relevant to my Photography.

    To each their own. I've unsubscribed from the thread now.

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Need a sense of humor around here people. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Jono feels offended that I made a tongue-in-cheek comment regarding his "anguish" over whether to buy a hyper-expensive camera.

    I'd have thought that the line "Bah, humbug!" followed by a devilish smiley ...
    ]'-) ... would indicate that I was kidding him a bit. But Terry seems to be offended as well.

    Well, on that basis I offer an apology ... there was no intent to offend.

    I do feel rather strongly that all this drama over the notion of buying or not buying a camera is just malarky and totally irrelevant with respect to a pursuit of and love for Photography. I mean, I felt the same way when I finally obtained the Hasselblad super wide I'd wanted for 35 years as it had been a fantasy for most of my life ... But once I had it, I went to work with it, learned it, enjoyed it ... and sold it when it was no longer relevant to my Photography.

    To each their own. I've unsubscribed from the thread now.
    No, it was not clear that it was tongue and cheek. However, I do find it odd that you offer an apology and then reitterate the same position over again.

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Need a sense of humor around here people. LOL
    But Guy, don't you see how dangerous, how subversive Jono's position is? Without the certainty that a new more expensive camera will improve our photography, that leaves only hard work, practice, evaluation and criticism by our colleagues, experimentation, and struggle.

    This could ruin everything!

    (I don't need a smiley here, do I?)

    Matt

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    In addition to a sense of humor, people sometimes need to let things go. It isn't necessary to respond to every little thing.

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    Re: Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    But Guy, don't you see how dangerous, how subversive Jono's position is? Without the certainty that a new more expensive camera will improve our photography, that leaves only hard work, practice, evaluation and criticism by our colleagues, experimentation, and struggle.

    This could ruin everything!

    (I don't need a smiley here, do I?)

    Matt
    No indeed! (you don't need a smiley)
    I realise that my decision is extremely odd . . . it's also extremely out of character (my wife is whirling in confusion, having blessed the idea to find that it doesn't seem to be happening!).

    Just this guy you know

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