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Once again I've fallen at the last hurdle - no MF for me!

jonoslack

Active member
Hi There
One or two of you will have been amused over the years at my anguish over whether or not to go Medium format. This was probably the closest call, I really was on the brink of buying an S2 and lenses (finances agreed by lovely wife, bank tame, all set to go).

But I've decided not to. Two things really:

1. I went through my best images over the last 5 years. Most of the good ones are 'reactive' shots, which are generally taken with a small camera which is at hand; either a leica M, or a dSLR (very few from compacts). There are some landscape shots, but they almost always rely on large compositional objects rather than blistering detail.

2. I took the same shot with a 35mm prime with the Pentax K5, the Leica M9 and the Sony A900 (foliage and tree detail against the sky) and printed as best as I can at A2+ size (25" x 17"). Then I called in the good eyes (Silas) to give them an intense scrutiny.

There was an obvious difference between the prints, but they were all perfectly acceptable from 18" distance, and some of them did really very well.

Of course, I understand that if I'd taken the same shot with an S2 / H4d / Phase / whatever, then there would have been another step up in quality. I also understand absolutely clearly that once I've tasted that step-up it'll be hard to go back (just like I've been unsatisfied with the stream of compacts which have passed through my gear cupboard).

But I'm not convinced that the people who like my pictures will have much concern for the difference, and I'm quite aware that there are some shots that I'll miss if I have an S2, which I wouldn't miss with an M9.

It's very unusual for me to forego a purchase that I really really really want, and which I can (kind of) afford to buy. But after the serious looking and heart to heart I've had with myself I really think that I would lose at least as much as I'd gain (and possibly more).

So I'm not Entering Here and Abandoning Hope . . . . . at least, not yet.


............. mind you, having thought of all this a noctilux seems like a snip :ROTFL:

Many thanks to those who've assisted in my decision making, whether consciously or unconsciously, particularly:
Cam, Kevin, Marc, Silas, Tom.

It must be time to open a bottle of wine!
Apologies if this post seems pointless!

all the best
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Not pointless at all Jono --

But you should probably at least "demo" an MF rig and then compare the same prints from it in a similar fashion. You *may* be surprised at the added subtleties in the MF print, or may not be. Either way, you'd at least know for certain what you were or weren't missing.

Just a thought,
 

TRSmith

Subscriber Member
My logic train follows yours almost exactly, even down to allowing the buy-pressure to build until the last second and then releasing the pressure on something "inexpensive" by comparison. It's a scary thing, the mind. But at least you've left the door open for another run up. Everything changes eventually, who knows?
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Geez guys feeling like a failure here. I know following me around is dangerous as hell to the pocket. I still have hope for you Jono to slide down the slope. Just keep on fighting. LOL
 

jonoslack

Active member
Not pointless at all Jono --

But you should probably at least "demo" an MF rig and then compare the same prints from it in a similar fashion. You *may* be surprised at the added subtleties in the MF print, or may not be. Either way, you'd at least know for certain what you were or weren't missing.

Just a thought,
Hi Jack
I did spend an afternoon with an S2, and I did do some prints, and I AM aware of the added subtleties . . . but I'm not aware that it would have much of an effect on what the picture says, and that was why I made the decision.

I'm completely aware that having bought an MF rig and used it for a few days I would (like others) be overjoyed by the increase in quality / subtlety, and that I would never look back - and that my M9 kit would languish in the kit cupboard. The crucial issue is whether my pictures would be better . . . or just have more subtle IQ. My decision is based around the fact that more subtle IQ would be balanced by less subtle IC (image content) - and for me that's not a good trade.

I understand all the ideas about 'a more considered approach' and 'making you think harder about the image'. But the more I think, the less the image. Basically my instinct is a much better artist than my intellect :).

I wouldn't have bothered to post this, but I know there are several others who are having the same internal dialogue, and there is such a deluge of articles like Mark Dubovoy, I thought my simple decision might at least help someone else to think hard about it.
 

jonoslack

Active member
My logic train follows yours almost exactly, even down to allowing the buy-pressure to build until the last second and then releasing the pressure on something "inexpensive" by comparison. It's a scary thing, the mind. But at least you've left the door open for another run up. Everything changes eventually, who knows?
:ROTFL:

It's rather like the decision whether or not to have another child:
NO - is always conditional
YES - is always final!

by the way, I haven't bought a noctilux, I was just amused by the fact that it no longer seemed expensive!

Oh! Wow! this appears to be my 6,000 post :eek:

all the best
 

jonoslack

Active member
Geez guys feeling like a failure here. I know following me around is dangerous as hell to the pocket. I still have hope for you Jono to slide down the slope. Just keep on fighting. LOL
Still Guy - at least I'm your only failure!
Next time maybe :)

. . . . . . . anyway - who's following who around here? isn't there a little matter of a Sony FF? :)
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Jono let you in on the biggest secret of all time. It is simply this the cam that is the most comfortable and user friendly to the shooter without looking up and second guessing yourself and letting your mind be creative and get what you intend to get is the best cam you can own bar none. Everything else is secondary to getting the image , image is first and whatever tool gets the image easily on the shooter wins the day. MF is not necessarily better than anything if you can't get the damn thing out of the holster to shoot , that goes for anything. Whatever you can frame and work better is the best tool. I love MF but I never or will ever say it is the easiest tool on me to shoot, far from it. It's work but I have enough experience to get around any barrier that try's to impede me.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Still Guy - at least I'm your only failure!
Next time maybe :)

. . . . . . . anyway - who's following who around here? isn't there a little matter of a Sony FF? :)
Yea it is my turn on the Sony following you. Bad influence you are. LOL
 

jonoslack

Active member
Jono let you in on the biggest secret of all time. It is simply this the cam that is the most comfortable and user friendly to the shooter without looking up and second guessing yourself and letting your mind be creative and get what you intend to get is the best cam you can own bar none. Everything else is secondary to getting the image , image is first and whatever tool gets the image easily on the shooter wins the day. MF is not necessarily better than anything if you can't get the damn thing out of the holster to shoot , that goes for anything. Whatever you can frame and work better is the best tool. I love MF but I never or will ever say it is the easiest tool on me to shoot, far from it. It's work but I have enough experience to get around any barrier that try's to impede me.
Quite agree . .. and of course that's what my decision is based on. But I think the point of the S2 is that it ISN'T difficult to shoot with (at least, I didn't think so, I thought it was wonderful / easy / beautiful to use) - it was really about whether it would improve my photography, or (as I think) make it worse.
 

D&A

Well-known member
But after the serious looking and heart to heart I've had with myself I really think that I would lose at least as much as I'd gain (and possibly more). best
Hi Jono,

Between meetings here so only time for a couple of sentences. Your statement above is essentially the essence of what I also wrote in Kurt's S2 thread. Many of us contemplating the S2 have to look at and evaluate the tradeoffs of giving up one of our present systems and it's inherent advantages (and disadvantages) vs. using the S2. Each persons criteria and requirements are different and you eloquently stated yours and made a convincing case. That doesn't mean there won't be future consideration of the S2 system, simply that at the present, the tradeoffs aren't balanced sufficiently for you particular needs/criteria. That of course may change down the road, when the personal criteria/wants/needs change. It's not that the S2 is going away and that if ever the time comes that it becomes the right camera for you to choose for your endeavors, it or it's successor (or possibly some other system) can always be purchased.

Now, my day will be ending a bit later....any chance there's anything left in that bottle of red wine that you're willing to share? I think I'm going to need some too! :) .

Dave (D&A)
 

jonoslack

Active member
Hi Jono,


Now, my day will be ending a bit later....any chance there's anything left in that bottle of red wine that you're willing to share? I think I'm going to need some too! :) .

Dave (D&A)
I'm sorry Dave, it's empty, but the boys seem to have opened another one, so you're most welcome!
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Let me challenge your decision Jono ... which may also be pointless :ROTFL:

You may not deserve a MFD ;), but your work may. And in some ways MFD deserves you.

Many of us here have been through an absolute train load of gear over the years. In search of what? The challenge of mastery? To improve our image quality? To better capture content? Shifting creative priorities? Simply, because we can, and it's fun? Or all of the above?

I shudder when I think of that trek ... all those cameras, lenses, accessories, in and out ... next ... next ... next ... often punctuated with ... "what was I thinking", the latest being the Sony A55 ... not much money but those things add up over time to a lot.

As a young Art Director I once had a mentor sum it up in a sentence ... "The trouble with making a decision is that it eliminates all the other possibilities". An S2 is that sort of decision, (at least financially it is for some). In a similar vein, my dear friend Irakly Shanidze (whom I think you know of) summed up it up in reaction to my S2P extravaganza ... "Now you have no where to go, Leica is the end." (I think his reference point is optics, since lenses are everything to him).

I understand your concern regarding style and content, but not the reasoning. Some "take with" concerns are valid for some of the bigger MFD rigs, but the S2 is no more a hassle than carrying the Sony ... I've already done it. So, it isn't the Leica M that's in the cross-hairs, it's the Sony. I do admit that I'm examining my "photo equipment holdings" to jettison anything that isn't producing ... which I should have done long ago. Streamline to that which I gravitate to when shooting.

I'm a candid shooter first and foremost and wouldn't even think of a system if it didn't fit that requirement ... which is why the S2 fell off the shopping list last year ... and went back on once they fixed the AF, and some of the image characteristics I had expected started to show up as more people explored the camera.

My summation is that I call MFD a "long pants" decision. Man up Jono. :ROTFL:

-Marc
 

jlm

Workshop Member
the precipice i slipped over was peering into that ground glass on my old yashicamat 2-1/4. Could never be happy peering into that little hole of the SLR again.

got really happy with 12 shots per roll.

down hill ever since

different strokes for different folks
 

dick

New member
:ROTFL:

It's rather like the decision whether or not to have another child:
NO - is always conditional
YES - is always final!

all the best
We like to think we are in control and have options... you may be fortunate, but NO is conditional on contraception working ( my first wife got pregnant on an IUD), and YES is conditional on havering the hammer and anvil to produce ( It can be more difficult than ordering an MFD system!).

...and you can decide to have another child every couple of years.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Not pointless at all Jono --

But you should probably at least "demo" an MF rig and then compare the same prints from it in a similar fashion. You *may* be surprised at the added subtleties in the MF print, or may not be. Either way, you'd at least know for certain what you were or weren't missing.

Just a thought,
Remember the bigger kids in school who would always egg you on to do something daring which usually ended up with you losing a tooth or something? Jack is just as evil...

:ROTFL:
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Thanks for posting Jono.
I am indeed having some similar discussion with myself - not about entering MF but to either add a Pentax 645D or not to and either to keep the Hy6 or not.
I shot some images with my Hy6 which I like a lot, (this includes how the sensor draws but probably also how the Rollei lenses draw.)

However I dont use it as much as I had planned. Why? its big and heavy, and its slow to photograph with, it is much more room for falure (slightly wrong focus, exp metering off, image review in camera doesnt tell that much etc., not much room for available light photography caused by shallower DOF in combination with limited high ISO, AF not capable for anythingmoving fast)
The workflow takes much more time.
One other thing is that for some reason I still feel somewhat uncompfortable in some case when I bring such equipment, because it jsut draws more attention and questions "how much does that camera cost"/ is it so much better than other cameras etc. I dont like such discussions.

I think it also has to do with time - I am not pro and I do run a business + have a jung growing family + some other hobbies as well like paragliding for example. So time is clearly a limited ressource, as is room and weight when I am ouside with kids.

I still think a S2 or a 645d would work somewhat better than my Hy6 for those times, but still not really small and why I would gain some IQ from the sensor I would loose some abilities regarding AF (shooting moving kid/ sports etc.) and low light.

Comparing the size weight of an S2 or 645d to a DSLR isnt really fair - because you have to see the whole packageincluding lens, now compare a 50/1.4 or 105/2.0 Nikon/Zeiss lens with a Leica 75/2.5 or 180mm S2 lens.
(The Pentax seems more compact in this area)

If I was only shooting landscape finarts I would not question MF for my purpose.
And one can allways own 2 o3 even 3 systems for different application. But then which one do you bring - I often dont go out to just and only shoot landscape, I want to do various things and be flexible.

What I dont get is why we do not see MF-like sensors in DSLRs. The DMR showed what is possible. I am still hoping for something like that. Would be perfect for my taste. A S2-petit like camera with 24x35 sensor which takes Leica R-AF lenses (just take the same optics from old R lenses and add AF).

But then you sometimes look at those MF images and are just blown away...
 

doug

Well-known member
... What I dont get is why we do not see MF-like sensors in DSLRs... Would be perfect for my taste. A S2-petit like camera with 24x35 sensor which takes Leica R-AF lenses (just take the same optics from old R lenses and add AF)...
IMHO Leica under-estimated the demand for such a camera, just as they under-estimated the demand for the M9 and (apparently) the S2. I'd love to put my APO R lenses on this camera.
 
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