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Thread: Why did you choose your back?

  1. #151
    thsinar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Dear Kipling,

    It is understandable, from an enduser point of view, that this situation is frustrating.

    On the other hand, we manufacturers (speaking about Sinar) do have of course interest to get new customers into our family. There are however a few points to consider concerning trade-ins:

    - we can simply not afford to loose money when doing an upgrade, even by knowing that this new customer might be with us for long.

    - trading a back from the competition brand is in fact simply a discount on the purchased product, since we can't do anything with this traded in product, but to shelve or destroy it. This is already limiting the value of the product (MFDB) to be taken back.

    - our prices are already calculated in a way that they are competitive and to give the best possible value to the enduser, making any discount from the list price of this product limited.

    This being said, Sinar does offer a trade-in price for any MFDB with a CCD sensor. It might be considered as a "ridiculous" amount regarding the real end-value of the back in question, but it is nevertheless what we manufacturer and our distributor can do. In most of the cases, it would be more interesting to try to sell this back on the second-hand market.

    Best regards,
    Thierry


    Quote Originally Posted by kipling View Post
    after 1,5 years with the aptus and contax, i wanted to upgrade to a better back and a different camera system. i was willing to pay quite a bit of cash for entry into a new system (hassy, phase, sinar). to my surprise no one was interested in taking my leaf as a trade in into their system. just ridiculous offers that were of no interest.

    what i'm saying is, whatever back you go with don't expect to be able to switch to a different back without taking a huge loss. you can only trade up into "your" system, not into a new system, so choose carefully.

  2. #152
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Trading in anything is always at a loss of what you can sell it for on the used market , just look at cars and that actually maybe the best thing to trade but you still get beat up bad they just camouflage it well to the buyer.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  3. #153
    thsinar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Dear David,

    I understand your frustration for not having got yet your upgrade. Let me first say and state that it is in no way the fault or mistake of our distributor, nor of course of your dealer, Steve Hendrix from PPR: those people are pushing daily to get the upgrades delivered and we have SBI calling us every day.

    I have to admit that Sinar has been overwhelmed with orders from all over the world after announcing this upgrade path on April 14th, and that we didn't expect this to happen within such a short time. A week after our announcement almost all of our existing customers had already placed order. This has led to a delivery problem and delay which is only slowly resolving. I do understand that the situation is now better and that we shall be able to deliver most of the backorders within a couple of weeks or so.

    However, I have submitted your own case to the Sinar responsible and ask him to handle it as a priority.

    I thank you anyway for your patience.
    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    David, sounds like you are making some progress with Sinar. The support from Sinar in the US, as far as getting an upgrade is concerned, is probably the worst I have ever experienced ... from anyone, ever. I ordered the e75LV upgrade and put a deposit on it since May 6, and am still waiting for it to appear. I don't know of anyone in the US getting their upgrades yet (except maybe for you!). Even Steve Hendrix and Dave McRitchie are complaining that they are not getting the backs they need from Switzerland. I am starting to get concerned how reliable this company really is, at least in the US, since they don't seem to be there when you need them. At this point, I am not sure I can endorse/recommend Sinar to anyone in the US.
    Last edited by thsinar; 11th June 2008 at 19:37.

  4. #154
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Dear David,

    I understand your frustration for not having got yet your upgrade. Let me first say and state that it is in no way the fault or mistake of our distributor, nor of course of your dealer, Steve Hendrix from PPR: those people are pushing daily to get the upgrades delivered and we have SBI calling us every day.

    I have to admit that Sinar has been overwhelmed with orders from all over the world after announcing this upgrade path on April 14th, and that we didn't expect this to happen within such a short time. A week after our announcement almost all of our existing customers had already placed order. This has lead to a delivery problem and delay which is only slowly resorbing. I do understand that the situation is now better and that we shall be able to deliver most of the backorders within a couple of weeks or so.

    However, I have submitted your own case to the Sinar responsible and ask him to handle it as a priority.

    I thank you anyway for your patience.
    Best regards,
    Thierry
    Thierry,

    Thank you for this. I now feel bad that I have vented my frustration in this forum. First, I want to make sure that I did not mean anything negative about Steve Hendrix. Steve has been my pro dealer for a couple of years now, and is first rate. I have NO hesitation in recommending Steve Hendrix to anyone who needs help with their medium format needs. Steve is well informed and takes care of his customers. In this case, I understand that there is not much that can be done when supply simply runs out.

    On the other hand, I am actually glad that Sinar is doing so well. I believe Sinar's strategic direction is sound and their technical capability to achieve their direction is second to none. Personally, I am looking forward to more of their innovations, like the ingenious revolving back for the Hy6....can't wait for mine to come now. Thanks again!

  5. #155
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    My e-75LV was sent to Sinar,for the 2.5 inch screen and rotating adapter for my Hy6, on the 21st of April and returned as a brand new swap on the 5th of June.
    That's a 6 week turnaround.
    Pretty good IMO.
    Cheers,
    Willem.

  6. #156
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    David, sounds like you are making some progress with Sinar. The support from Sinar in the US, as far as getting an upgrade is concerned, is probably the worst I have ever experienced ... from anyone, ever. I ordered the e75LV upgrade and put a deposit on it since May 6, and am still waiting for it to appear. I don't know of anyone in the US getting their upgrades yet (except maybe for you!). Even Steve Hendrix and Dave McRitchie are complaining that they are not getting the backs they need from Switzerland. I am starting to get concerned how reliable this company really is, at least in the US, since they don't seem to be there when you need them. At this point, I am not sure I can endorse/recommend Sinar to anyone in the US.


    It is certainly understandable to experience frustration at product delays. The initial projection on receipt of the Sinar LCD Upgrade/Revolving Hy6 Adapter package was stated as 2 to 3 weeks by SinarBron. The first order I placed was David's order on April 30, I believe. So we are now closing in on 5 weeks. I know that units have arrived in the USA internally with Sinar, which traditionally indicates that more will be forthcoming over the coming weeks.

    I can't say that I can equate a product delay or backorder with bad service. I have certainly experienced product delays with all 3 digital manufacturers whose products I sell. Regarding the quality of Sinar customer service, I would say that they are not perfect (and not alone in that) - but I will also say that they certainly care for their customers, strive to make the right decisions, and when a customer service issue does arise, do not shy away from confronting and handling the issue in the best way they can.

    I know it is difficult for customers to have a true sense of where they fit in a manufacturer's mindset. It's easy to make the assumption that one's circumstances haven't been considered or that they just plain don't care. I can say this is almost never the case. I'm a lot closer to the action than most customers ever get - I know all of the personnel at these companies, including Sinar, some very well. And by and large, they all care and try to do their best. And it is important to them.

    I have to also say that I have not issued any complaint regarding the delay in the product to anyone publicly or privately. I've had plenty of experience with product delays - many much more severe than this one, unfortunately - and it is an unfortunate part of the industry we serve, with technically advanced products that rely on delivery of multiple components in an extremely competitive marketplace. I have on occasion expressed frustration when ship dates have been off by months and months. I have not expressed any complaint in this situation. I am traveling this week with Dave McRitchie of Sinar and while he cannot publicly post on forums (company policy), he can read them, and he stated the same to me regarding any complaining to Sinar.

    Steve Hendrix
    www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

  7. #157
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Well I am waiting on my new Phase Body but as noted good to see that the MF companies are all busy with product deliveries and announcement in the end that is good for the end user even though we do have to sit and wait sometimes. I'm sure making a MF back is not like working with lego's either it takes time to make sure they are correct and calibrated but i think the the biggest part is actually making these sensors, not a easy task for either Kodak or Dalsa one would think
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  8. #158
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well I am waiting on my new Phase Body but as noted good to see that the MF companies are all busy with product deliveries and announcement in the end that is good for the end user even though we do have to sit and wait sometimes. I'm sure making a MF back is not like working with lego's either it takes time to make sure they are correct and calibrated but i think the the biggest part is actually making these sensors, not a easy task for either Kodak or Dalsa one would think
    New phase body? Did something happen to your P25+?

  9. #159
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Not the back, Greg. It's the replacement/update for the Mamiya AFD II. A Phase branded "AFD III". Guy is waiting for his and is using a temporary AFD II while waiting.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Ah, got it. I was half expecting Guy to say he'd decided to trade up to a P45+

  11. #161
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Boys will be boys!
    I can bet ya that Guy will have a P45+ rather sooner than later,not to be outdone by his running mate Jack Flesher.
    Cheers,
    Willem.

  12. #162
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Seitz View Post
    Ah, got it. I was half expecting Guy to say he'd decided to trade up to a P45+
    LOL Not yet , maybe next year. Mamiya AFDIII and the new Phase One are one in the same . If you buy a new Phase back you et a new Phase One body and 80D lens. Right now i am shooting with a loaner AFD which i hate. So just waiting on my final piece to be delivered. Should be any day now. Along with about 6 other members that just bought new Phase backs.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  13. #163
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    Boys will be boys!
    I can bet ya that Guy will have a P45+ rather sooner than later,not to be outdone by his running mate Jack Flesher.
    Cheers,
    Willem.
    Maybe the 60mpx back announced at Photokinia. LOL I do wonder what is coming next though.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  14. #164
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Guy,
    my eMotion75 @ 33 MP is already more than I need for 99% of my work.
    A big file is handy,because I can crop.
    Also the file can be easily doubled in size with no loss,with the right software.
    Cheers,
    Willem.
    N.B I doubt if there ever will be a 60MB back and if so at what cost?

  15. #165
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    I agree 60 mpx is going over the top for me. No way i would buy one . I think the max at 39mpx today is way more than enough. Rather see other improvements to the backs than more Pixels.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  16. #166
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix/PPR View Post
    ...
    I have to also say that I have not issued any complaint regarding the delay in the product to anyone publicly or privately. I've had plenty of experience with product delays - many much more severe than this one, unfortunately - and it is an unfortunate part of the industry we serve, with technically advanced products that rely on delivery of multiple components in an extremely competitive marketplace. I have on occasion expressed frustration when ship dates have been off by months and months. I have not expressed any complaint in this situation. I am traveling this week with Dave McRitchie of Sinar and while he cannot publicly post on forums (company policy), he can read them, and he stated the same to me regarding any complaining to Sinar.

    Steve Hendrix
    www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
    Steve, I want to publicly admit that I have made a TERRIBLE choice of words in my earlier note, and that never once have I heard you (or Dave McRitchie) "complain", about anything. Rather, the more accurate wording should have indicated that both you and Dave "share my concerns" in this backorder situation. Again, I want to thank you for the professional support and service you have provided to me and others in the MF community over the years.

    David

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I agree 60 mpx is going over the top for me. No way i would buy one . I think the max at 39mpx today is way more than enough. Rather see other improvements to the backs than more Pixels.
    Agree completely and might make an interesting topic for another post, i.e. what improvements would you like to see in your back. I'm guessing that a bigger, brighter viewfinder ala Nikon D3 would be up near the top of many lists. Even out on the beach I can see that screen, hit a button to zoom and know if I've nailed it within two seconds or so.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    60 MPix in a 4.5 X 6 format would result in about the same lp/mm resolution capability of the current M8 sensor. This would create a lens limited platform. Unfortunately, the physics of it all would reduce the signal to noise ratio as well just due to photon shot noise, so some of the MF-ness would go away.
    -bob

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    60 MPix in a 4.5 X 6 format would result in about the same lp/mm resolution capability of the current M8 sensor. This would create a lens limited platform. Unfortunately, the physics of it all would reduce the signal to noise ratio as well just due to photon shot noise, so some of the MF-ness would go away.
    -bob
    Bob, this is not technically true. The Sinar 54H back is capable of producing 89 MPix in 645 format. I use this back with both Hasselblad V and Contax 645 cameras, and I assure you that it is not lens limited. In fact, this back produces superior image quality with perhaps one of the highest signal to noise ratios on the market today, since it achieves this resolution with large 9 micron pixels and multiple shots. There is full RGB color information at every RGB pixel location, so there is no need for software interpolation to estimate the missing 33% of the image data from single shot backs. The result is incredible image quality with no artifacts.

    Of course, this multi-shot back is really only for studio use. I would say the difference in image quality between the mult-shot 89 MPix images and standard single-shot 39MPix images is at least the same jump in quality as seen between 35mm DSLR cameras and medium format, but maybe even somewhat better because of the total absence of moire and false colors with the 89MPix images.

    David

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I agree 60 mpx is going over the top for me. No way i would buy one . I think the max at 39mpx today is way more than enough. Rather see other improvements to the backs than more Pixels.
    Guy, the next step up in image quality is with the multi-shot backs. There is even a significant leap in quality going from a single-shot 39MPix back to a four-shot 39MPix back. Again, the reason is that the single-shot backs only capture one color per pixel and so must estimate the remaining 33% of the image data that it does not capture. For the most part, the software estimation of this missing information does a decent job, but it is no substitute for actually capturing all of the genuine RGB information with the back itself.

  21. #171
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    I know and that is something about the multi shot backs . Great for the studio no question
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  22. #172
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Unfortunately, the physics of it all would reduce the signal to noise ratio as well just due to photon shot noise, so some of the MF-ness would go away.
    -bob
    The per-pixel noise might drop to DSLR levels but remember that the enlargement is much lower, so the noise is less apparent on these large files.

    I think people forget that when they look at the noise of a 33/39MP back at 100% and compare with a DSLR. MF can get away with a lot more noise. If they look comparable on a per-pixel basis, the MF image will appear to have much less noise at final output size.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    .. Again, the reason is that the single-shot backs only capture one color per pixel and so must estimate the remaining 33% of the image data that it does not capture. ...
    Just correcting my own mistake....software is needed to estimate 66% of the missing image information for all single-shot backs...amazing when you think about it.

  24. #174
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Steve, I want to publicly admit that I have made a TERRIBLE choice of words in my earlier note, and that never once have I heard you (or Dave McRitchie) "complain", about anything. Rather, the more accurate wording should have indicated that both you and Dave "share my concerns" in this backorder situation. Again, I want to thank you for the professional support and service you have provided to me and others in the MF community over the years.

    David
    David - that is ok. I appreciate you posting this publicly, but it's really difficult to write on forums, I think. It's so easy to have a feeling you're trying to convey, and just be typing away, and it comes out all wrong. I've certainly done it enough times.

    Thanks,
    Steve Hendrix
    www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Bob, this is not technically true. The Sinar 54H back is capable of producing 89 MPix in 645 format. I use this back with both Hasselblad V and Contax 645 cameras, and I assure you that it is not lens limited.
    --snip--

    David
    David,
    If I am wrong, it won't be th first time.
    for reference please see http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tu...solution.shtml and http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/...html#pixelsize

    My comment was relative to a hypothetical bayer sensor 60 MP 4.5X6 back and the loss of signal to noise ratio (loss of MF-ness) as well as the MTF of available MF lenses (lens limited). This limitation is somewhat subjective since it depends on the contrast ratio that is considered acceptable in the resolution of a line pair. Many folks use a 25%:1 ratio as do I, some use a 9%:1 as that is considered to be the limit of discernment of the human eye.

    With any digital array-sensor system, the signal to noise ratio of each shot is dictated by pixel size. Signal to noise ratio is related to the square root of the number of shots if the individual shots are aggregated. Optical aggregation would be the result of simply using the larger file and printing it at the same size as a single shot image would produce. One of the major reasons for multi-shot I think is the elimination of sampling artifacts such as Moire which is caused by the near identical periodicity of the on-sensor resolved image with the pixel pitch. The sub-pixel shift and shoot creates a partial-pixel shifted overlapped set of images, but not really more resolution than the lens is capable of providing.
    The number of shots taken do not change the diffraction limitation story which as solely based on circle of confusion, and for digital, pixel size. i have assumed in my thinking an Airy disk diameter to pixel size ratio of 1:2. These assumptions also include perfect focus, which is not a three dimensional thing, it exists in only one plane. If focus is not perfect, or if the lens is stopped down below its diffraction limit, or if real-world issues such as camera vibration or even power supply noise are considered the sensor somewhat less lens limited since these factors start reducing the delivered resolution from the Nyquist ideal. We are getting very close to lens limited and several manufacturers have been forced to bring out better lenses just because of these digital factors.
    Please if you will, point out the errors in my reasoning.
    thanks
    -bob

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    The per-pixel noise might drop to DSLR levels but remember that the enlargement is much lower, so the noise is less apparent on these large files.

    I think people forget that when they look at the noise of a 33/39MP back at 100% and compare with a DSLR. MF can get away with a lot more noise. If they look comparable on a per-pixel basis, the MF image will appear to have much less noise at final output size.
    Granted to some degree, but not if the reason one buys the larger back is to print larger and maintain a better than 6lp.mm final resolution.
    I am expecting to make prints a whole lot bigger with MF.
    -bob

  27. #177
    thsinar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    True what David says: amazing quality out of a 22 MPx sensor. Do use the best possible lenses like HR lenses and you shall be blown away when doing a 16-shot.

    BTW: it is not 33% of the colour/luminance information which is missing and has to be interpolated, but 2 out of 3 basic colour out of RGB are not registered for each pixels, thus 66% has to be interpolated.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    The Sinar 54H back is capable of producing 89 MPix in 645 format. I use this back with both Hasselblad V and Contax 645 cameras, and I assure you that it is not lens limited. In fact, this back produces superior image quality with perhaps one of the highest signal to noise ratios on the market today, since it achieves this resolution with large 9 micron pixels and multiple shots. There is full RGB color information at every RGB pixel location, so there is no need for software interpolation to estimate the missing 33% of the image data from single shot backs. The result is incredible image quality with no artifacts.
    David

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    True what David says: amazing quality out of a 22 MPx sensor. Do use the best possible lenses like HR lenses and you shall be blown away when doing a 16-shot.

    BTW: it is not 33% of the colour/luminance information which is missing and has to be interpolated, but 2 out of 3 basic colour out of RGB are not registered for each pixels, thus 66% has to be interpolated.

    Thierry
    Thierry, you must have missed my post above. I already corrected myself.

    Also, I prefer the Hasselblad lenses over the HR ones since the close focusing abilities are superior (e.g., the floating elements of the 40 CFE IF). The HR lenses are corrected only for infinity, have too large a close focusing distance for me, and their image circles are not large enough to accommodate any significant movements. In fact, if anyone eventually makes a full frame square sensor, the HR lenses will not be able to cover the 55x55 image circle.


    David

  29. #179
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Yes, I have read after posting, sorry about my "rush".

    Yes, you are right concerning the HR lenses and close focusing ability. But on the other hand they have been built and optimized to be used on a view camera and to resolve the current sensors' resolution, and in fact their image circle is wide enough in most cases and needs. You will be surprised to see how big this image circle is, in fact, from 70mm to 80mm at infinity and stopped down 2 f-stops (5th column from left).

    The resulting shift ways are quite important (6th column from left): please have a look at the "Lens Data" table I have attached here. These shift possibilities given in this table (5th right column) are VERY conservatives values given by us, and are typically much more without any loss at full open aperture. As an example, the 28mm HR can easily be shifted 10mm FULL OPEN, and still sharp in the corners, and this at infinity.

    The resolution of these lenses (3rd column from right) are given as a MINIMUM and at the edge of the image circle: in the center it is much more.

    Best regards,
    Thierry



    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Thierry, you must have missed my post above. I already corrected myself.

    Also, I prefer the Hasselblad lenses over the HR ones since the close focusing abilities are superior (e.g., the floating elements of the 40 CFE IF). The HR lenses are corrected only for infinity, have too large a close focusing distance for me, and their image circles are not large enough to accommodate any significant movements. In fact, if anyone eventually makes a full frame square sensor, the HR lenses will not be able to cover the 55x55 image circle.


    David

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    ...
    Please if you will, point out the errors in my reasoning.
    thanks
    -bob
    Bob, the sensor is "Bayer-limited", and is the primary reason why most "decent" lenses do not yet limit the image capture (although it is possible for some lenses that are of truly lesser quality).

    The fact is that you are capturing only 25% of the red and blue channel content of any image, and only 50% of the green channel content. Much of the online analyses are flawed since they assume a uniform monochromatic sensor as their first assumption, and everything goes wrong from there. A single image capture using a Bayer sensor will require you to "guess" (albeit with sophisticated mathematics) the missing 75% of the red information, the missing 75% of the blue information, and the missing 50% of the green information.....that's quite a lot of missing information.

    Maybe you can see this with an extreme example. If you were to photograph a hypothetical object with extremely fine detail (say content with 100 lp/mm), but that only consisted of a very large range of red intensities and no other wavelengths, you would find the effective resolution of the sensor to be much lower than the capability of the lens. In this case, it is because the sensor resolution has been effectively reduced to the number of pixels that can actually capture red, since the other pixels would be rendered useless in providing any of the missing red pixels on those other sites.

    Even if your object is mostly green (the most advantageous in terms of digital capture resolution), it is still only half of the green content that is contained in the image. And, the sampling frequency for these wavelengths are still not uniform at pixel width spacing, but rather consist of interspersed arrays of data resulting in a pixel spacing of two pixel-widths, which lowers the Nyquist frequency for both the horizontal and vertical dimensions in this wavelength. It is a common mistake to interpolate these samples and then claim a higher Nyquist frequency for the sensor.

    So, bottom line is that most "decent" lenses (eg, let's say ones that can resolve at least 60 lp/mm or more at 50% MTF) are still outresolving, not limiting, the MF sensors.
    Last edited by David Klepacki; 12th June 2008 at 21:07.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Thierry, excellent table. I have not seen this one. Thank you!

    David

  32. #182
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    You're welcome, David.

    Please keep in mind, that the resolution given is far more in the centre, about 120 lp/mm, as per opposition to the resolution at the edge of the image circle given in the table.

    The table can be downloaded from:

    www.sinarcameras.com

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Thierry, excellent table. I have not seen this one. Thank you!

    David

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    60 MPix in a 4.5 X 6 format would result in about the same lp/mm resolution capability of the current M8 sensor. This would create a lens limited platform. Unfortunately, the physics of it all would reduce the signal to noise ratio as well just due to photon shot noise, so some of the MF-ness would go away.
    -bob
    Bob, I don't mean to pick on you tonight, but you are wrong again. The 60MP camera would not have the same resolution as the M8. It would actually have much more, except in the realm of macro dimensions.

    The Leica M8 has a 10MP sensor in a 3:2 configuration resulting in a pixel image of 3936 x 2630.

    A hypothetical 60MP MFDB sensor in a 4:3 configuration results in a pixel image of roughly 8944 x 6708, but to compare apples with apples, I will make it the same 3:2 configuration as the M8, or 9486 x 6324.

    Now, let's say that the British Museum calls you up and asks you to do some important copy work for them. It involves photographing some artifacts of size 10cm x 10cm. For simplicity, let's just look at the longest dimension and a single image capture. And, to compare apples with apples, we must assume for each camera that a lens and shooting distance are used so as to provide the same field of view and depth of field.

    If you took your M8 to do the job, you would be taking 10cm of the information and distribute that over its available pixels of 3936, giving you a resolution of 3936 / 100mm = 39.36 p/mm = 19.68 lp/mm.

    If you took your 60MP MFDB to do the job, you would be taking that same 10cm of information and distribute that over the much larger number of pixels, namely 9486. This would result in a resolution of 9486 / 100mm = 94.86 p/mm = 47.43 lp/mm, or more than twice the resolution of the M8.

    This MFDB will always provide higher resolution images, up to the limit of the lens. Only above that limit (which can be up to 250 lp/mm for some MF lenses), will the M8 begin to yield higher resolution. However, this will only occur at the macro scale, never at infinity.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Bob, I don't mean to pick on you tonight, but you are wrong again. The 60MP camera would not have the same resolution as the M8. It would actually have much more, except in the realm of macro dimensions.

    The Leica M8 has a 10MP sensor in a 3:2 configuration resulting in a pixel image of 3936 x 2630.

    A hypothetical 60MP MFDB sensor in a 4:3 configuration results in a pixel image of roughly 8944 x 6708, but to compare apples with apples, I will make it the same 3:2 configuration as the M8, or 9486 x 6324.

    Now, let's say that the British Museum calls you up and asks you to do some important copy work for them. It involves photographing some artifacts of size 10cm x 10cm. For simplicity, let's just look at the longest dimension and a single image capture. And, to compare apples with apples, we must assume for each camera that a lens and shooting distance are used so as to provide the same field of view and depth of field.

    If you took your M8 to do the job, you would be taking 10cm of the information and distribute that over its available pixels of 3936, giving you a resolution of 3936 / 100mm = 39.36 p/mm = 19.68 lp/mm.

    If you took your 60MP MFDB to do the job, you would be taking that same 10cm of information and distribute that over the much larger number of pixels, namely 9486. This would result in a resolution of 9486 / 100mm = 94.86 p/mm = 47.43 lp/mm, or more than twice the resolution of the M8.

    This MFDB will always provide higher resolution images, up to the limit of the lens. Only above that limit (which can be up to 250 lp/mm for some MF lenses), will the M8 begin to yield higher resolution. However, this will only occur at the macro scale, never at infinity.
    David,
    I think we are talking about two different things entirely,
    I was using as a measure of resolution, the on-sensor resolution stated in line pairs per mm, not the total image size nor the total line pairs resolved by the sensor. A lens limited sensor is a sensor that is capable of resolution greater than what lenses can deliver.
    I completely agree that MF has more capability to capture a more detailed image when measured across the total sensor size. That is one reason I bought a P45+.
    so a table follows- Data taken from product data sheets and posted previously on a different thread:

    The columns are:Camera; sensor dimension in mm; pixels max; LP resolvable; LP/mm on-sensor;resolution factor compared to an M8; Maximum Print dimension at 6lp/mm

    M8__ 27.0mm 3916 1958 72.5 1.00 326
    D3__ 36.0mm 4256 2128 59.1 0.82 354
    P20+ 36.9mm 4080 2040 55.3 0.76 340
    P25+ 48.9mm 5436 2718 55.6 0.77 453
    P30+ 44.2mm 6496 3248 73.5 1.01 541
    P45+ 48.9mm 7216 3608 73.8 1.02 601
    X60_ 48.9mm 8944 4472 91.5 1.26 745

    the X60 is the hypothetical 60MP sensor I was referring to in my earlier post. I chose arbitrarily to make it a 645 1.1 crop sensor for comparison purposes to the P45+
    What I was comparing is the fourth column which is the sensor's maximum capability to "test" a lens. This is a theoretical limit based on the Shannon-Nyquist sampling theorem, your actual results will be worse than this.
    I don't know of a manufacturer that publishes MTF charts at 90 lines per mm, but if I take a fairly good lens such as the Leica 50mm Summicron, which publishes data at only 40 lines per mm, I can estimate that at 90 lines per mm and f/5.6 that its contrast might be in the center only roughly 25%-50% which is the limit I was referring to. This is true only at the point of best focus, and it drops off away from that point, Of course, any lens would be diffraction limited to about f/9 in a 60 MP 645 sensor.

    So I think this data speaks for itself, do you disagree?
    thanks
    -bob

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    ...
    So I think this data speaks for itself, do you disagree?
    thanks
    -bob
    Yes, I disagree. The camera data concerning the sensor size and number of pixels is the only accurate data in the table. The other derived numbers concerning resolution and print size are not correct.

    The first reason is the one I already told you. These sensors are not monochromatic sensors, nor are they foveon-type sensors where all three chromaticities are captured at every pixel location. Let's take the M8 as an example. The M8 has only 1968 pixels in the horizontal direction in any one color, NOT 3936. So, the Nyquist limit is essentially half of what is reported in your table.

    Second, no matter how generous you are in estimating the resolving capability of the sensor, there is plenty of MF glass that still out resolves it. As an example, take a look at the MTF data from Zeiss for the Hasselblad 40 CFE IF lens, found here , where Zeiss explicitly says that this lens is capable of 200 lp/mm. Also, Kornelius Fleischer has measured many of the Hasselblad V lenses, mostly reported at photo.net, and I do not recall ever seeing anything less than about 160 lp/mm.

    The bottom line is that the MFDB sensors are not out resolving decent MF glass, and will not out resolve this glass even with 60MP.

    [As an aside, you seem to be interested in obtaining the smallest resolvable feature in an image, yet you do not specify the field of view, magnification and scale of consideration. Without these parameters, I don't know what kind of valid conclusions you will be able to make. Certainly, you can change the magnification with lenses of longer focal lengths. In more extreme cases, you can use more powerful telescopes or microscopes to resolve the features that you are looking for, depending on your desired scale.]

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    Yes, I disagree.
    ~snip~ The M8 has only 1968 pixels in the horizontal direction in any one color, NOT 3936.
    David, I understand what you are saying, but think there is a flaw in your base assumption. I would like to point out that a conventional line-pair is black and white. Black contains no color information, and white contains ALL colors ----- as such, black won't excite any pixel regardless of color while white will in fact excite them all... As for generating them in the PROPER color, that is where the Nyquist limit comes in, so all in all, I think Bob's comments are on point...

    Moreover, I have done direct resolution testing of actual test targets with B&W line pairs, and have always found the best lenses hit about 70% of maximum possible sensor resolution, or about Nyquist limits. AND I calculated the maximum theoretical resolution just as Bob did. So at least in that regard, I have some direct empirical support for Bob's points...

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    David, I understand what you are saying, but think there is a flaw in your base assumption. I would like to point out that a conventional line-pair is black and white. Black contains no color information, and white contains ALL colors ----- as such, black won't excite any pixel regardless of color while white will in fact excite them all... As for generating them in the PROPER color, that is where the Nyquist limit comes in, so all in all, I think Bob's comments are on point...

    Moreover, I have done direct resolution testing of actual test targets with B&W line pairs, and have always found the best lenses hit about 70% of maximum possible sensor resolution, or about Nyquist limits. AND I calculated the maximum theoretical resolution just as Bob did. So at least in that regard, I have some direct empirical support for Bob's points...

    Cheers,
    Jack, there is no flaw in my argument. I happen to be a professional physicist, earning my PhD quite a long time ago, so I know what I am talking about.

    First, black and white line pairs are already software fabrications of the captured image. As I said, the sensor only gives you 33% of the image information, none of which is black or white, and the rest of the information must be estimated. The software algorithms to interpolate the missing information have become extremely sophisticated in estimating this information, but it is just that, an estimation.

    So, you are not really measuring the Nyquist limit of the sensor, but rather the degree to which the raw conversion is capable of predicting the missing information. As such, you cannot conclude that a larger sensor, like the hypothetical 60MP one proposed here, will be lens limited.

    Furthermore, the Nyquist limit is not based on black-white or on any specific color. It is strictly a function of the sampling frequency of the wavelengths it is measuring. So, for the M8, it is physically impossible to obtain resolutions that exceed 36.44 lp/mm in either red or blue, although it is possible to exceed this number in the diagonal direction in green (which is roughly 72 lp/mm). There are simply not enough red or blue photosites to give you more red-blue information than this. Basically, the post-capture interpolation processing provides an "artificial boost" in resolution via software estimation. This is the reason why you are able to measure a higher lp/mm in your own black-white tests. The much higher frequency green information is mixed with the red and blue information in order to generate the black-white content. I guess it would be analogous to how sharpening can artificially improve MTF measurements.

    The best way to prove this to yourself is to work with test charts that are not black-white but rather red-blue, as it is much harder for the software to estimate the missing information in this case.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    WHITE excites EACH color site be it R,G or B to some degree, therefore it renders a signal on the chip. Now, we can argue how accurately that information gets processed, but cannot argue the fact that a single pixel of each color can be excited to some degree by the same source. AND the fact a single site gets excited is enough to give it a part in the role of net output resolution...

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Well, if you are only concerned with creating images having full spectrum white detail (or only shades of green), then I guess you are good....but once your images hold more color, your lp/mm will be limited by the red and blue channels as I have tried to describe here.

    BTW Jack, I already explained how all R, G, B sites are excited to produce white. It does not change the sampling rates of the red or blue channels though. It is still half the frequency of the green chanel sampling rate.
    Last edited by David Klepacki; 13th June 2008 at 14:34.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Hmmm.... my test target (not an ISO 12233) holds black and white line pairs along with Red, Blue and Yellow line pairs, arranged in vertical horizontal and tangential orientations. In all the testing I've done, I almost always have at least one lens that will hit the Nyquist limit for the sensor in question, and usually several will, at least centrally on all colors. Moreover, often times yellow or blue are the strongest rendering, showing slightly more resolution than black or red, and sometimes the tangential show a bit better than the vertical or horizontal. Regardless, using your argument, the best I should be able to hit is around half Nyquist with the colored pairs, yet all the same, I frequently hit Nyquist with all colors? So I suspect either you are misunderstanding us, or are possibly misinformed, or Bob, myself and Nyquist are all wrong...
    Jack
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  41. #191
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    I have been looking for one of those yellow stream icons to express my thoughts reading this dribble but can't find one.

  42. #192
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Hey Doug after reading all that I am just happy to be a dumb *** enough not to understand any of it.

    I'm in trouble now. I swear it is the heat getting to me
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  43. #193
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?



    Heh Heh Heh

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    BTW folks this is a scam . No way you can put a P45 on a H3/39 and still be a H3/39 . Actually pretty lame. Look at the images of it
    http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-H3D-3...QQcmdZViewItem
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  45. #195
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    BTW folks this is a scam . No way you can put a P45 on a H3/39 and still be a H3/39 . Actually pretty lame. Look at the images of it
    http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-H3D-3...QQcmdZViewItem
    You're right. Hass back in one photo, P45 in the next! I reported it

    Alarming that people are bidding on such a scam.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    It was pretty funny to see , reason I mentioned it and of course i don't want any members getting duped into this stuff. Okay back to the regular program.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    YOu can put the back on -- just wont work . If someone is going to try to scam people, they need to do their homework.. and do it correctly


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    BTW folks this is a scam . No way you can put a P45 on a H3/39 and still be a H3/39 . Actually pretty lame. Look at the images of it
    http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-H3D-3...QQcmdZViewItem

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Hmmm.... my test target (not an ISO 12233) holds black and white line pairs along with Red, Blue and Yellow line pairs, arranged in vertical horizontal and tangential orientations. In all the testing I've done, I almost always have at least one lens that will hit the Nyquist limit for the sensor in question, and usually several will, at least centrally on all colors. Moreover, often times yellow or blue are the strongest rendering, showing slightly more resolution than black or red, and sometimes the tangential show a bit better than the vertical or horizontal. Regardless, using your argument, the best I should be able to hit is around half Nyquist with the colored pairs, yet all the same, I frequently hit Nyquist with all colors? So I suspect either you are misunderstanding us, or are possibly misinformed, or Bob, myself and Nyquist are all wrong...
    Jack, it is certainly possible to see test charts hit the Nyquist limit. This just means that the raw conversion process is extremely good. I can show you test charts where the resolution has even exceeded the Nyquist limit, which should not be physically possible, yet it can happen if the estimation of the missing information is clever enough.

    If your test chart is absolutely pure red on a pure blue background, with no green content whatsoever, I would like to know how you expect to obtain a higher Nyquist limit. Unfortunately, I know of no test chart pure enough to eliminate any trace of green, so there will always be some high frequency green content to better interpolate the red and blue.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso
    BTW folks this is a scam . No way you can put a P45 on a H3/39 and still be a H3/39 . Actually pretty lame. Look at the images of it
    http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-H3D-3...QQcmdZViewItem
    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    You're right. Hass back in one photo, P45 in the next! I reported it

    Alarming that people are bidding on such a scam.


    If you read the e-mails on the listing he attempts to clarify. It says it's bundled with two backs and he admits that he screwed up by listing them together.

    Here's part of it: "There were several questions concerning the P45. The back is from my old H1, which was stolen from my car last year, and I bought h3d. I bundled up the back for sale with h3d, but on afterthought, it wasn't the best idea, as some people want to buy the back only. Unfortunately, I don't know how to resolve it, as some people already bid on the combo, and it would be unfair to change the auction, now. Sorry. "

    Not sayin' I know, just reading what's there.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by DougDolde View Post
    I have been looking for one of those yellow stream icons to express my thoughts reading this dribble but can't find one.
    Great contribution Doug.

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