Why did you choose your back?

[LJL]

Guy,
Partly, those scenarios are our fault for not properly educating and managing the client and trying to control the image use. Since that is a lot more of a losing battle than we may like, our one option is to deliver images that are able to hold up under multi-purposing, and that is where MF really does shine. Not everything is going to be able to be shot that way for sure, but knowing that a client has a propensity to do this kind of thing is a good signal to shoot more deliberately with MF and charge them accordingly. That works out better for everybody.

So, getting back to the topic, it really is important to know what you want to do, and pick a back/system that will best accommodate those needs. While there may be some difference between a 22MP and a 31, 33 or 39MP back, any of them will give you a lot more multi-purpose use options than the DSLRs. They cannot do everything, but they can deliver so much more when they are put to use. For the "grip and grin" awards shots at meetings and stuff that go into a house magazine at small size, the DSLR or M8 is more than enough. For most other product shots, portraits, architecture and stuff like that, where they may become wallpaper or billboards, not worth fighting with the smaller files.

LJ

 

[Guy Mancuso]

110 percent agreement LJ. This is really my bottom line on the subject on what is needed.

I know we jump off topic sometimes and when something good comes in a thread just run with it folks. Sometimes good to start it's own thread but Jack and I don't mind this at all. data is great and when we hit great data like we all just discussed than we hit a jackpot of information and we would rather have it anywhere than nowhere at all.

 

[jlm]

what I have found with the CFV back is a pronounced yellow and green shift when set to daylight and shot in normal daylight. while this can be corrected to the eye in post by simply shifting the temp and tint, I doubt i am zeroing in accurately on as full a spectrum as possible. While including a gray card and neutral picking works (if the light is neutral) it would be better to profile the back for a full spectrum and apply that for the appropriate lighting condition. c1 allows you to include camera profiles; so my question is, is anyone doing this with their backs, in particular, with the CV and Phocus?

 

[JimCollum]

I had posted this in response to the IR posting by Chris and Phase One in another thread. My choice for the Leaf back was two fold. The first is the file coming off of the back itself. While not matching the P45 in resolution, I feel that the file coming off of the Aptus 75s closely matches how I see the world... color rendition, contrast, tonality. The second reason was I was lucky enough to find an excellent bargain in a used back. I've been a user of Capture One since version 1, and have liked the workflow (I still use it for ZD and Leica M8 files). The file quality coming out of Leaf Capture is excellent, however the workflow isn't as good as some of the other offerings... but I have managed to fit it in so that it works for me.

The one area where I feel the Leaf back falls apart, is in corporate support.

i've been very impressed with the speed and involvement that both Sinar and Phase seem to give on this (and other )forums.

I really love the Leaf back i have.. , and any question I've asked Steve have been answered quickly... but the feeling i've always had, is that corporate support from Leaf isn't forthcoming. I've seen some responses in Luminous Landscape.. but they're typically directed at the big commercial players. Any email directly to Leaf people internally seems to either disappear, or take forever to get very short, curt and sparse responses.

I'm sure there are other Leaf users out there, but there's very little feel of a 'community' anywhere (the Leaf forum is about as dead as one can be)

 

[woodyspedden]

I had posted this in response to the IR posting by Chris and Phase One in another thread. My choice for the Leaf back was two fold. The first is the file coming off of the back itself. While not matching the P45 in resolution, I feel that the file coming off of the Aptus 75s closely matches how I see the world... color rendition, contrast, tonality. The second reason was I was lucky enough to find an excellent bargain in a used back. I've been a user of Capture One since version 1, and have liked the workflow (I still use it for ZD and Leica M8 files). The file quality coming out of Leaf Capture is excellent, however the workflow isn't as good as some of the other offerings... but I have managed to fit it in so that it works for me.

The one area where I feel the Leaf back falls apart, is in corporate support.

i've been very impressed with the speed and involvement that both Sinar and Phase seem to give on this (and other )forums.

I really love the Leaf back i have.. , and any question I've asked Steve have been answered quickly... but the feeling i've always had, is that corporate support from Leaf isn't forthcoming. I've seen some responses in Luminous Landscape.. but they're typically directed at the big commercial players. Any email directly to Leaf people internally seems to either disappear, or take forever to get very short, curt and sparse responses.

I'm sure there are other Leaf users out there, but there's very little feel of a 'community' anywhere (the Leaf forum is about as dead as one can be)

Sad to hear that Jim as the files from the Aptus backs are very very nice. The Dalsa sensor renders differently from the Kodak sensors but I feel have fine tonality. Skin tones I feel are better with the Kodaks.

Hasselblad should also be on your list of manufacturers with fine support. My experiences with them have been first rate.

Woody

 

[mark1958]

Jim when i had a technical problem with my leaf back-- turned out to be defective circuit board, Leaf was extremely responsive. when i emailed about upgrade policies and other sales issues, that is where communication was slow and poor. M

I had posted this in response to the IR posting by Chris and Phase One in another thread. My choice for the Leaf back was two fold. The first is the file coming off of the back itself. While not matching the P45 in resolution, I feel that the file coming off of the Aptus 75s closely matches how I see the world... color rendition, contrast, tonality. The second reason was I was lucky enough to find an excellent bargain in a used back. I've been a user of Capture One since version 1, and have liked the workflow (I still use it for ZD and Leica M8 files). The file quality coming out of Leaf Capture is excellent, however the workflow isn't as good as some of the other offerings... but I have managed to fit it in so that it works for me.

The one area where I feel the Leaf back falls apart, is in corporate support.

i've been very impressed with the speed and involvement that both Sinar and Phase seem to give on this (and other )forums.

I really love the Leaf back i have.. , and any question I've asked Steve have been answered quickly... but the feeling i've always had, is that corporate support from Leaf isn't forthcoming. I've seen some responses in Luminous Landscape.. but they're typically directed at the big commercial players. Any email directly to Leaf people internally seems to either disappear, or take forever to get very short, curt and sparse responses.

I'm sure there are other Leaf users out there, but there's very little feel of a 'community' anywhere (the Leaf forum is about as dead as one can be)

 

[kipling]

i went with leaf because after testing i was convinced that the image quality and software would suit my style of shooting.
i tested other backs and they were either less convincing or equal to the leaf back "but" not as good a deal. my aptus 22 was a very good deal at the time. the software worked very well tethered and i had the option of live view.

after 1,5 years with the aptus and contax, i wanted to upgrade to a better back and a different camera system. i was willing to pay quite a bit of cash for entry into a new system (hassy, phase, sinar). to my surprise no one was interested in taking my leaf as a trade in into their system. just ridiculous offers that were of no interest.

luckily i'm okay with leaf and i was happy to stay with the aptus backs. but considering the amount of money a company is probably going to make by getting me to switch i would have thought it would be interesting for them. at least interesting enough to make me a serious offer. i was wrong.

what i'm saying is, whatever back you go with don't expect to be able to switch to a different back without taking a huge loss. you can only trade up into "your" system, not into a new system, so choose carefully.

I've now been part of this circle of hell for several weeks. I've read nearly everything that everyone has written on this particular forum in the last many weeks, and I've re-read a few forums from a few weeks ago that I would consider essential reading for anyone interested in getting a medium format digital back. (This seems to me in some ways, trying to describe what a good wine tastes like)

What I'm always struck by is the diversity of what others seem to value most. It could be coming upon a 'good deal," detail, file size, moire, square or rectangular, price, acceptable performance at higher ISO speeds, software, capture speed, some of the above, all of the above, and none of the above, etc. It nearly starts my head spinning again, but not as much as my head was spinning a few weeks ago. I've read notes about how some folks feel that their backs can outresolve their own best lenses. All of these choices and preferences are personal, and they're each "weighted" as compared to other considerations.

So, how did you come to choose what you chose? What are the factors you valued most in your choice of the back you chose? When you got to know your MFDB, did you have "buyers remorse" on any your choice? What unpleasant surprises have you had once you started to get to know your MFDB? Thank you.

 

[RayM]

Thank you, Kipling, your wise words landed successfully.

 

[Bob]

A woman's guess is much more accurate than a man's certainty.
Kipling

 

[fotografz]

i went with leaf because after testing i was convinced that the image quality and software would suit my style of shooting.
i tested other backs and they were either less convincing or equal to the leaf back "but" not as good a deal. my aptus 22 was a very good deal at the time. the software worked very well tethered and i had the option of live view.

after 1,5 years with the aptus and contax, i wanted to upgrade to a better back and a different camera system. i was willing to pay quite a bit of cash for entry into a new system (hassy, phase, sinar). to my surprise no one was interested in taking my leaf as a trade in into their system. just ridiculous offers that were of no interest.

luckily i'm okay with leaf and i was happy to stay with the aptus backs. but considering the amount of money a company is probably going to make by getting me to switch i would have thought it would be interesting for them. at least interesting enough to make me a serious offer. i was wrong.

what i'm saying is, whatever back you go with don't expect to be able to switch to a different back without taking a huge loss. you can only trade up into "your" system, not into a new system, so choose carefully.

Maybe once "trading-in" or "trading up" was an option ... can't remember when ... but maybe once upon a time, far, far away.

Leaf wasn't interested in giving me much allowance for a 2 month old Aptus 75s in trade for AFi-7, and Hasselblad's more recent trade allowances should be handled by a professional mugger.

When it comes to moving from one back to another, even the same brand, you are much better off to go it alone.

 

[thsinar]

Dear Kipling,

It is understandable, from an enduser point of view, that this situation is frustrating.

On the other hand, we manufacturers (speaking about Sinar) do have of course interest to get new customers into our family. There are however a few points to consider concerning trade-ins:

- we can simply not afford to loose money when doing an upgrade, even by knowing that this new customer might be with us for long.

- trading a back from the competition brand is in fact simply a discount on the purchased product, since we can't do anything with this traded in product, but to shelve or destroy it. This is already limiting the value of the product (MFDB) to be taken back.

- our prices are already calculated in a way that they are competitive and to give the best possible value to the enduser, making any discount from the list price of this product limited.

This being said, Sinar does offer a trade-in price for any MFDB with a CCD sensor. It might be considered as a "ridiculous" amount regarding the real end-value of the back in question, but it is nevertheless what we manufacturer and our distributor can do. In most of the cases, it would be more interesting to try to sell this back on the second-hand market.

Best regards,
Thierry

after 1,5 years with the aptus and contax, i wanted to upgrade to a better back and a different camera system. i was willing to pay quite a bit of cash for entry into a new system (hassy, phase, sinar). to my surprise no one was interested in taking my leaf as a trade in into their system. just ridiculous offers that were of no interest.

what i'm saying is, whatever back you go with don't expect to be able to switch to a different back without taking a huge loss. you can only trade up into "your" system, not into a new system, so choose carefully.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Trading in anything is always at a loss of what you can sell it for on the used market , just look at cars and that actually maybe the best thing to trade but you still get beat up bad they just camouflage it well to the buyer.

 

[thsinar]

Dear David,

I understand your frustration for not having got yet your upgrade. Let me first say and state that it is in no way the fault or mistake of our distributor, nor of course of your dealer, Steve Hendrix from PPR: those people are pushing daily to get the upgrades delivered and we have SBI calling us every day.

I have to admit that Sinar has been overwhelmed with orders from all over the world after announcing this upgrade path on April 14th, and that we didn't expect this to happen within such a short time. A week after our announcement almost all of our existing customers had already placed order. This has led to a delivery problem and delay which is only slowly resolving. I do understand that the situation is now better and that we shall be able to deliver most of the backorders within a couple of weeks or so.

However, I have submitted your own case to the Sinar responsible and ask him to handle it as a priority.

I thank you anyway for your patience.
Best regards,
Thierry

David, sounds like you are making some progress with Sinar. The support from Sinar in the US, as far as getting an upgrade is concerned, is probably the worst I have ever experienced ... from anyone, ever. I ordered the e75LV upgrade and put a deposit on it since May 6, and am still waiting for it to appear. I don't know of anyone in the US getting their upgrades yet (except maybe for you!). Even Steve Hendrix and Dave McRitchie are complaining that they are not getting the backs they need from Switzerland. I am starting to get concerned how reliable this company really is, at least in the US, since they don't seem to be there when you need them. At this point, I am not sure I can endorse/recommend Sinar to anyone in the US.

 

[David Klepacki]

Dear David,

I understand your frustration for not having got yet your upgrade. Let me first say and state that it is in no way the fault or mistake of our distributor, nor of course of your dealer, Steve Hendrix from PPR: those people are pushing daily to get the upgrades delivered and we have SBI calling us every day.

I have to admit that Sinar has been overwhelmed with orders from all over the world after announcing this upgrade path on April 14th, and that we didn't expect this to happen within such a short time. A week after our announcement almost all of our existing customers had already placed order. This has lead to a delivery problem and delay which is only slowly resorbing. I do understand that the situation is now better and that we shall be able to deliver most of the backorders within a couple of weeks or so.

However, I have submitted your own case to the Sinar responsible and ask him to handle it as a priority.

I thank you anyway for your patience.
Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry,

Thank you for this. I now feel bad that I have vented my frustration in this forum. First, I want to make sure that I did not mean anything negative about Steve Hendrix. Steve has been my pro dealer for a couple of years now, and is first rate. I have NO hesitation in recommending Steve Hendrix to anyone who needs help with their medium format needs. Steve is well informed and takes care of his customers. In this case, I understand that there is not much that can be done when supply simply runs out.

On the other hand, I am actually glad that Sinar is doing so well. I believe Sinar's strategic direction is sound and their technical capability to achieve their direction is second to none. Personally, I am looking forward to more of their innovations, like the ingenious revolving back for the Hy6....can't wait for mine to come now. Thanks again!

 

[Rethmeier]

My e-75LV was sent to Sinar,for the 2.5 inch screen and rotating adapter for my Hy6, on the 21st of April and returned as a brand new swap on the 5th of June.
That's a 6 week turnaround.
Pretty good IMO.
Cheers,
Willem.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

David, sounds like you are making some progress with Sinar. The support from Sinar in the US, as far as getting an upgrade is concerned, is probably the worst I have ever experienced ... from anyone, ever. I ordered the e75LV upgrade and put a deposit on it since May 6, and am still waiting for it to appear. I don't know of anyone in the US getting their upgrades yet (except maybe for you!). Even Steve Hendrix and Dave McRitchie are complaining that they are not getting the backs they need from Switzerland. I am starting to get concerned how reliable this company really is, at least in the US, since they don't seem to be there when you need them. At this point, I am not sure I can endorse/recommend Sinar to anyone in the US.

It is certainly understandable to experience frustration at product delays. The initial projection on receipt of the Sinar LCD Upgrade/Revolving Hy6 Adapter package was stated as 2 to 3 weeks by SinarBron. The first order I placed was David's order on April 30, I believe. So we are now closing in on 5 weeks. I know that units have arrived in the USA internally with Sinar, which traditionally indicates that more will be forthcoming over the coming weeks.

I can't say that I can equate a product delay or backorder with bad service. I have certainly experienced product delays with all 3 digital manufacturers whose products I sell. Regarding the quality of Sinar customer service, I would say that they are not perfect (and not alone in that) - but I will also say that they certainly care for their customers, strive to make the right decisions, and when a customer service issue does arise, do not shy away from confronting and handling the issue in the best way they can.

I know it is difficult for customers to have a true sense of where they fit in a manufacturer's mindset. It's easy to make the assumption that one's circumstances haven't been considered or that they just plain don't care. I can say this is almost never the case. I'm a lot closer to the action than most customers ever get - I know all of the personnel at these companies, including Sinar, some very well. And by and large, they all care and try to do their best. And it is important to them.

I have to also say that I have not issued any complaint regarding the delay in the product to anyone publicly or privately. I've had plenty of experience with product delays - many much more severe than this one, unfortunately - and it is an unfortunate part of the industry we serve, with technically advanced products that rely on delivery of multiple components in an extremely competitive marketplace. I have on occasion expressed frustration when ship dates have been off by months and months. I have not expressed any complaint in this situation. I am traveling this week with Dave McRitchie of Sinar and while he cannot publicly post on forums (company policy), he can read them, and he stated the same to me regarding any complaining to Sinar.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well I am waiting on my new Phase Body but as noted good to see that the MF companies are all busy with product deliveries and announcement in the end that is good for the end user even though we do have to sit and wait sometimes. I'm sure making a MF back is not like working with lego's either it takes time to make sure they are correct and calibrated but i think the the biggest part is actually making these sensors, not a easy task for either Kodak or Dalsa one would think

 

[Greg Seitz]

Well I am waiting on my new Phase Body but as noted good to see that the MF companies are all busy with product deliveries and announcement in the end that is good for the end user even though we do have to sit and wait sometimes. I'm sure making a MF back is not like working with lego's either it takes time to make sure they are correct and calibrated but i think the the biggest part is actually making these sensors, not a easy task for either Kodak or Dalsa one would think

New phase body? Did something happen to your P25+?

 

[Dale Allyn]

Not the back, Greg. It's the replacement/update for the Mamiya AFD II. A Phase branded "AFD III". Guy is waiting for his and is using a temporary AFD II while waiting.

 

[Greg Seitz]

Ah, got it. I was half expecting Guy to say he'd decided to trade up to a P45+ :ROTFL: