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Thread: Why did you choose your back?

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    Why did you choose your back?

    I've now been part of this circle of hell for several weeks. I've read nearly everything that everyone has written on this particular forum in the last many weeks, and I've re-read a few forums from a few weeks ago that I would consider essential reading for anyone interested in getting a medium format digital back. (This seems to me in some ways, trying to describe what a good wine tastes like)

    What I'm always struck by is the diversity of what others seem to value most. It could be coming upon a 'good deal," detail, file size, moire, square or rectangular, price, acceptable performance at higher ISO speeds, software, capture speed, some of the above, all of the above, and none of the above, etc. It nearly starts my head spinning again, but not as much as my head was spinning a few weeks ago. I've read notes about how some folks feel that their backs can outresolve their own best lenses. All of these choices and preferences are personal, and they're each "weighted" as compared to other considerations.

    So, how did you come to choose what you chose? What are the factors you valued most in your choice of the back you chose? When you got to know your MFDB, did you have "buyers remorse" on any your choice? What unpleasant surprises have you had once you started to get to know your MFDB? Thank you.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Excellent question. Will post later my thoughts, on deadline right now.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    I bought my P25 for it's reputation of being rock solid, both in construction and file quality, and have never been disappointed by either. In fact I'm amazed by the image quality every time I open a file in post. I used to shoot 6x7 film before going digital, and there is no way in hell I'd go back, MFD just blows film away in every way. You will especially notice this if you work the files a lot in post production. This is jmho though, so don't start any film vs. digital war please

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Ray,

    I agree, that this is an excellent question to post. Like you, I have read and re-read most of the threads here and elsewhere regarding the topic.

    So here is sort of how my process went:

    I watched Guy move from Canon gear to Canon w/Leica glass, to Leica DMR, to Nikon and M8, to the Mamiya 645 w/ZD back, and finally (at least for now) to his P25+ back and soon-to-be PhaseOne AFD III. Guy's nature of being brand agnostic and being willing to flip this stuff with ice water in his veins is helpful to watch. He always seems to be mostly looking for improvements in image quality within a practical range of usability, expense, etc. (Not being a "Guy Mancuso fanboy, but it sure is cheaper to let him run through all of this gear first! )

    So as Guy tested the Mamiya ZD and ultimately moved to the P25+ (for now), his process was meaningful to me. My needs are not assignment work, events, etc. I'm an enthusiastic amateur who sells some prints now and then. And my budget is limited. My original plan was to get the 1Ds3, but with the help of Jack's thread of test photos (and much research and shooting it) I decided I needed to move to a MFDB for the visible step up I was wanting.

    I chose the Mamiya AFD II for the ergonomics which allow for hand-held shooting and walking around kind of use, and the affordable glass which allows me to experiment a bit without (yet) selling body parts. I expect I'll upgrade it to the Phase body. From all of my reading, I knew that I wanted an open system, so that factored in as well.

    The original plan was to get a ZD back and then move up to one of the others such as Phase or Sinar, but a P25+ became available to me a good price so the decision was easier to jump ahead a bit in my plans. (Sinar's rotating back adapter is really appealing to me.)

    The Phase back was on my short list anyway because of the button layout, large(ish) and bright LCD and the range of back models from which to choose. The kind of support that was illustrated by people like Lance here had an influence on my long-term goals as well. The same is true of my feelings toward Thierry and Sinar.

    So, in my case, it was a matter of looking for the best that I could get within a budget that sort of compares to 35mm DSLR gear. The move to a P25+ this week was the result of an unexpected opportunity to buy a pre-owned, but unused back at a special price. I'm very pleased with the purchase so far. It handles well; the menus are easy; the first few files came off as if they were my good 'ol DSLR files (no process headache), but with the MFDB look and quality I'm seeking.

    My thanks to all here who freely share their experience and ideas.

    Edit to add: I chose the P25+ because I can not afford the P45+, which I think for landscape is probably one of the best choices. The absence of mircrolenses on both of these models appeals to me. And high ISO performance is of limited value to me for this format – I like my DSLRs for that.
    Last edited by Dale Allyn; 8th June 2008 at 08:38. Reason: more rambling

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    I moved from having two backs, Aptus 75S and Mamiya ZD, to the Sinar Hy6/e75L recently. My motivations and priorities were:

    The ability to shoot multiple camera platforms on a single back simply by changing the adapter plate. This gives me the option to shoot my Contax, Hasselblad, and Mamiya RZ kits in addition to the Hy6.

    I was quite happy with my Aptus 75S and decided to stick with the same Dalsa chip that I had in that back.

    Having a big, bright viewfinder is very important to me. I find myself mostly using manual focus and with the shallow DOF in MF, it's critical to nail the focus point (at least when shooting people).

    My kit came with a 5 year hot swap warranty. Extending the warranty for a MF back can be quite expensive, ($2600 or $2700 per year for Leaf), so this was a major motivation for me to make the move when I did.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    I went used: Marc gave it excellent reviews: 205TCC Blad, 80mm/2.8 FE lens, CVF 16Meg back: about $10k.
    have completely loved it:
    pros:
    Back: sq format, seamless integration, no cables, etc. great post software (phocus), absolutely great image quality. 16meg is more than enough for me.
    Body, 205TCC (203 is similar): blad quality, ergo and compactness, FP shutter (i prefer this), takes most all blad lenses, many available used, can be used sync or FP depending on lens, prism or waist finder, has built in very good spot meter. (503 is a bit different: requires sych shutter lenses only, no in-body electronics or meter)

    cons: more limited electronic integration compared to newer systems; LCD displays are better on others (doesn't matter except in bright light, where they all probably fall down anyway), MP count is low
    the 1.5 crop factor limits wide angle choices from Blad
    Last edited by jlm; 8th June 2008 at 08:46.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    In another thread, I posted the following:

    ...I can tell you from direct personal experience that David has hit the nail on the head when he refers to the priorities we place on the many factors that go into the choice of back. This is everything.

    In my experience, if you want ultra-clean low-ISO files, the Phase does a better job. If you want deep shadow detail the Sinar does a better job. If you want the highest possible resolution, the Phase does a better job. If you want superior high ISO performance, the Sinar does a better job. I could go on...

    In some cases, it is possible to change the rules and improve one back's performance significantly with extra work and post-processing. In many cases, it isn't.

    The point to take away is which are the things you care about most in your image files, workflow or even handling of the back while shooting? Do you want these attributes "out of the box", or are you willing to do extra work to have them? I truly believe there is no "best" solution--if there were, we'd all have found it by now.
    ...


    With that as an understanding, I'm happy to tell you about the factors which drove me. I'm sure you understand that those factors may not be the same, or even relevant for you (or perhaps they might)...

    I am a fine art nature photographer. In two words, I began my transition from small format to medium format for one thing: image quality.

    I was willing to pay lots of money, carry bigger, heavier and slower gear, deal with more limited focal lengths and apertures all to be able to print larger fine art prints with what I refer to as 'effortless detail'. Large format produces work like what I wanted to achieve, and I was interested if medium format digital could take me some or all of the way there. I concluded that it could.

    Realizing that my sensor is only going to record what is delivered to it, the glass my MFD system would be using was critical. I evaluated Mamiya, Fuji (Hasselblad H), Hasselblad Zeiss, Contax Zeiss, and Rollei Zeiss and Schneider.

    Bokeh on the Rollei Schneider was outstanding, as were several other qualities. Zeiss came in a close second for me, but the Hasselblad Zeiss aperture rendered very disturbing hexagonal bokeh which was part of the reason I ultimately decided against them (Both Rollei and Contax Zeiss do a better job in this respect).

    In the end, I decided to go with the new Hy6 platform. The 6008AF allowed me to connect a few more digital backs, but the ergonomics (including weight) were not as nice for the work I do. So in the end, this limited me two only two different backs: Leaf AFI 7 and Sinar eMotion 75LV.

    But despite this narrowing of the field, I still evaluated every digital back in production.

    I had many criteria:

    Image Quality (my top 3: 1. Hasselblad CF39-MS, 2. Phase P45+, 3. Sinar eMotion75LV). Most of my subject matter would not lend itself to multishot, so the Hasselblad didn't win. The Sinar multishots don't have screens, so that eliminated them for my purposes.

    I also considered, service that I could get based on where I live (Seattle, USA), weight that I'd have to carry in the field, whether it had moving parts (ie. fans) which may fail, or become noisy over time, venting (I may be in wet or dusty conditions--I don't want to bring the environment home with me inside my digital back), low- and high-ISO performance, performance (speed of capture), post-capture workflow, health and viability of the manufacturer, adaptability of the platform, oh and number of megapixels.

    I share all this to show how broadly I looked at this decision before I leaped. And after all that, I still didn't get it right on my first try. The back I bought (P45+) ended up not being an option (for the time being at least) on the camera platform I wanted (Hy6). So after a year on the P45+, I sold it and moved to the Sinar.

    I'm not sure if my story helps at all, but I do empathize with where you are. If there is anything in my experience that might be of help, please let me know--I'd be happy to share what I've learned to hopefully help you make the right choice the first time around.

    Great question, Ray.

    Best regards,
    Brad
    Last edited by BradleyGibson; 8th June 2008 at 08:47.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    I knew I wanted a 22MP chip. I also knew I wanted an adapter system to allow me to change my mind about platforms or maybe use same back on several cameras. That narrowed choice down to Sinar or Hasselblad. I was very interested in the (at that stage) rumoured Hy6 camera, and not very impressed with some of Hasselblad's strategies, so the Sinar became my obvious choice.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    It was simple. Having had shot with most of the backs pretty extensively, or worked with photographers I hired to shoot for my ad agency, I knew that in the right hands, with the right experience, all the major backs were/are basically the same ... excellent.

    Agonizing over this or that as being "superior" is short lived ... what's top dog today, is kicked to the curb tomorrow ... in Guy's case, literally tomorrow : -)

    So, my choice was easy ... I chose my dealer ... it didn't really matter what brands he carried. With his help, I sorted out my needs, matched them to what was available and he made it all happen ... then personally set up everything, and was/is available to help ... in my studio. I honestly believe that the dealer is the most important piece of gear in the MFD bag

    So IMO, get on with it, love the one you're with, and go make photos.

  10. #10
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    have to agree and i do give Lance credit for my decision not too mention all the folks at Phase also, he walked me through everything made suggestions and provided extremely excellent service along the way. About time someone actually held my hand and helped me instead buying it all and than try to figure it all out. HUGE plus for that folks. Find a good dealer to start. I agree Marc that really helped me make my decision.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    For my studio and various types of still life shooting that I do (fine art, copy, and technical macro work), I need the highest resolution and image fidelity possible, since I also need to print large. Without getting into custom made imaging equipment, it came down to two choices for me: Hasselblad CF22-MS and the Sinar 54H, both capable of producing native 88MP non-interpolated images. I purchased and tried both, but now only have the 54H. Both of these backs have open interfaces, and basically support the same set of cameras (ie, they both can get the job done).

    For my mobile single-shot work, I ended up choosing the 33MP Sinar emotion 75LV, mostly because of the reasons already stated here, like preferred lenses and multiple camera support.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    For me it is about the optics first since most digital backs will yield similar results. This reason got me tried all kind of digital backs and even now I cannot totally give up the 35 mm format yet due to a couple of lens. I would like to have a system where I can use a single back for multiple platforms and thus the Sinar appeal to me the most this way but when I use the Phase One back with Capture One I also have to admit it fits me well. I also love the Hasselblad back especially the CFV since it works on both the Hasselblad 200 and 500 series. In the end I do not think you will lose going with any of the medium format system. I like to see all of the companies do well to keep the balance for users like us and the varieties always makes life more interesting. I have no fear in the step I take but yet with great enthusiasm for the next challenge.

    Best Regards,
    -Son
    ALPA (MAX, STC, TC) | CAMBO (Actus DB2, WRS-AE) | CONTAX | HASSELBLAD | LEICA | DB (CFV-16, CFV-39, IQ180, IQ360, IQ3100, P45+) | Lens (Canon, Fujinon, Leica, Nikon, Pentax, Rodenstock, Schneider, Zeiss)

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Great question Ray. I'm in exactly the same place. This seems much harder than buying a car though the price is the same!

    Bradley, thanks for your helpful comments. I'm looking at the Hy6 and have the same use and priorities in mind, though my post processing skills and patience are, I'm sure, at a lower standard than yours. How is the Hy6 working out for you?

    Thanks,

    Mitchell

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    The dealer and support system is everything.

    I was an early buyer into MFD straight into a Leaf75 3 years ago. I didn't like what Hasselblad was doing with H cameras and I liked the idea of the AFi. However the dealer I bought my Leaf from failed to inform me of the Leaf75s coming out a month after I bought my back and misled me about how long it would take to get the Hy6 platform to the market= more lies and BS and cover ups. The same dealer also sells Sinar here in Australia - and they went out of their way to make me not consider Sinar.

    I think that Leaf produces great files - but the software is clunky and I think Sinar's software is even clunkier. Phase One in Australia - well the dealer is 1000miles away so never got a chance to play here.

    I got to try out an early Hy6 body and a few lenses - and was not impressed with the ergonomics for me - and I made a commitment to NEVER dealing with this dealer group in Australia again anyway and telling anyone who asks what a load of BS I went through - because I hold grudges and never forget or forgive.

    Meanwhile Hasselblad kept on quietly servicing my queries always had stock on hand and was quick to answer questions. So I got to play with Phocus late last year - that was the clincher for me.

    I sold my Leaf - more to get away from these charlatans and moved to a H3D-31 which I tested against a second hand Phase back and Contax - and then quickly moved to a H3d11-39 when the price dropped by $10K.

    If I didnt have an extensive collection of HC lenses, and some rare v series lenses - I think I would have tossed a coin between Phase One and Hasselblad. I will probably buy a P45+ after Photokina and some Mamiya gear.

    I would have bought a Sinar back because you can change the adaptor plates - as I have said many times - this is a killer feature as far as I am concerned - but I am very old fashioned - I despise crooked dealers, lies mistruths and rip-offs.

    There ya go - my decision was more about what dealers support didnt do for me than any particular for or against system prejudice.

    Oh on a final note - I am extremely happy with my blad total workflow and system - but actually dont wish to be a fan boy marketer for any of thee manufacturers - so in the main when guys boast about teh wonderful quality of their Zeiss glass I just laugh to myself and let people enjoy their silliness.

    The best support network you can have is an online community like this - everyone here can ask questions and get real feedback - without the usual dealer bullying and BS.


    Pete

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    The same dealer also sells Sinar here in Australia - and they went out of their way to make me not consider Sinar.

    ...I would have bought a Sinar back because you can change the adaptor plates - as I have said many times - this is a killer feature as far as I am concerned - but I am very old fashioned - I despise crooked dealers, lies mistruths and rip-offs.
    Please pass on this experience to Sinar. Having dealers like this is not doing anyone any good.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by BradleyGibson View Post
    In another thread, I posted the following:

    ...I can tell you from direct personal experience that David has hit the nail on the head when he refers to the priorities we place on the many factors that go into the choice of back. This is everything.

    In my experience, if you want ultra-clean low-ISO files, the Phase does a better job. If you want deep shadow detail the Sinar does a better job. If you want the highest possible resolution, the Phase does a better job. If you want superior high ISO performance, the Sinar does a better job. I could go on...

    In some cases, it is possible to change the rules and improve one back's performance significantly with extra work and post-processing. In many cases, it isn't.

    The point to take away is which are the things you care about most in your image files, workflow or even handling of the back while shooting? Do you want these attributes "out of the box", or are you willing to do extra work to have them? I truly believe there is no "best" solution--if there were, we'd all have found it by now.
    ...


    With that as an understanding, I'm happy to tell you about the factors which drove me. I'm sure you understand that those factors may not be the same, or even relevant for you (or perhaps they might)...

    I am a fine art nature photographer. In two words, I began my transition from small format to medium format for one thing: image quality.

    I was willing to pay lots of money, carry bigger, heavier and slower gear, deal with more limited focal lengths and apertures all to be able to print larger fine art prints with what I refer to as 'effortless detail'. Large format produces work like what I wanted to achieve, and I was interested if medium format digital could take me some or all of the way there. I concluded that it could.

    Realizing that my sensor is only going to record what is delivered to it, the glass my MFD system would be using was critical. I evaluated Mamiya, Fuji (Hasselblad H), Hasselblad Zeiss, Contax Zeiss, and Rollei Zeiss and Schneider.

    Bokeh on the Rollei Schneider was outstanding, as were several other qualities. Zeiss came in a close second for me, but the Hasselblad Zeiss aperture rendered very disturbing hexagonal bokeh which was part of the reason I ultimately decided against them (Both Rollei and Contax Zeiss do a better job in this respect).

    In the end, I decided to go with the new Hy6 platform. The 6008AF allowed me to connect a few more digital backs, but the ergonomics (including weight) were not as nice for the work I do. So in the end, this limited me two only two different backs: Leaf AFI 7 and Sinar eMotion 75LV.

    But despite this narrowing of the field, I still evaluated every digital back in production.

    I had many criteria:

    Image Quality (my top 3: 1. Hasselblad CF39-MS, 2. Phase P45+, 3. Sinar eMotion75LV). Most of my subject matter would not lend itself to multishot, so the Hasselblad didn't win. The Sinar multishots don't have screens, so that eliminated them for my purposes.

    I also considered, service that I could get based on where I live (Seattle, USA), weight that I'd have to carry in the field, whether it had moving parts (ie. fans) which may fail, or become noisy over time, venting (I may be in wet or dusty conditions--I don't want to bring the environment home with me inside my digital back), low- and high-ISO performance, performance (speed of capture), post-capture workflow, health and viability of the manufacturer, adaptability of the platform, oh and number of megapixels.

    I share all this to show how broadly I looked at this decision before I leaped. And after all that, I still didn't get it right on my first try. The back I bought (P45+) ended up not being an option (for the time being at least) on the camera platform I wanted (Hy6). So after a year on the P45+, I sold it and moved to the Sinar.

    I'm not sure if my story helps at all, but I do empathize with where you are. If there is anything in my experience that might be of help, please let me know--I'd be happy to share what I've learned to hopefully help you make the right choice the first time around.

    Great question, Ray.

    Best regards,
    Brad
    Brad

    Just a question from curiosity as i have been laboriously going through the same process.

    You are a fine art nature photographer. Yet when you evaluated the Hasselblad Zeiss lenses you ranked them lower than the others based on bokeh. I may agree with you on the bokeh issue although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate some of the others on your list but as a fine art nature photograher myself issues such as color, microcontrast etc would be much higher on my list as important. Since you didn't mention some of these issues I wondered about your thoughts here.

    Thanks for any advice and counsel

    Woody

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    What a great thread! Thank you all for taking the time to contribute so generously to helping me learn from all of you. I now see more clearly that most of you had very specific needs in mind that you addressing in your decision-making.

    As for me, I've now put together a Contax system for myself, and the only thing missing is the digital back (I now have the 45, 80, 120 makro, and the 140, and a number of accessories). I will soon be selling off a bunch of lenses and I'll use the proceeds of the sales for a back. I've pretty much settled on the Phase P21+. It seems to be the basic introduction to medium format digital that I'm looking for. I'd like very much to get the P25+ for its increased resolution and crop factor, but the dollars for it are just that much more of an extra stretch right now that I've pretty much decided to go with the P21+. I suppose that I could wait longer to get the P25+ with print sales, etc., but I'd like to get into it sooner than that. I'm quite certain that the P21+ back will be plenty for me to do the kind of shooting I want to do, and will hold me till something else far more tempting comes along in a couple of years.

    And, in the meantime, if you have any additional thoughts on the P21+, I'd like to hear them too. Thank you again.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitchell View Post
    Great question Ray. I'm in exactly the same place. Bradley, thanks for your helpful comments. I'm looking at the Hy6 and have the same use and priorities in mind, though my post processing skills and patience are, I'm sure, at a lower standard than yours. How is the Hy6 working out for you?
    Mitchell
    Hi, Mitchell,

    The camera hasn't arrived yet--perhaps this week. I'm using my Sinar eMo75LV on a Hasselblad H2, currently, with Zeiss CFe glass and a CF adapter.

    Kudos to 'blad for offering an upgrade path for those with V glass, but the system as I'm using it isn't really effective as an artist's tool for me.

    I'll let you know how things go (good or bad) after I spend some time with the Hy6.

    Best regards,
    Brad

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Ray, in case you are not aware the P21 uses a smaller sensor chip than the 22MP, 33MP and 39MP sensors. This means the crop factor is higher, your lenses become a little more telephoto, and the active area of your viewfinder is a little smaller.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Brad

    Just a question from curiosity as i have been laboriously going through the same process.

    You are a fine art nature photographer. Yet when you evaluated the Hasselblad Zeiss lenses you ranked them lower than the others based on bokeh. I may agree with you on the bokeh issue although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate some of the others on your list but as a fine art nature photograher myself issues such as color, microcontrast etc would be much higher on my list as important. Since you didn't mention some of these issues I wondered about your thoughts here.

    Thanks for any advice and counsel

    Woody
    I was quite surprised by what I saw (see attachments I've uploaded) in that the bokeh could actually take 'center stage' in a photograph. But I found this kind of performance overwhelmed the other considerations you mention.

    I found that the Schneider glass has a (subjectively) more pleasing color rendition, but the difference between it and the Zeiss was small enough for it not to be a factor. If I were shooting in a studio with consistent lighting, this might be different, but since I'm going to have to deal with widely varying lighting situations, I doubt I'd be able to tell which of my images was Zeiss or Schneider after retouching by their color rendition.

    Similarly for microcontrast (here there is quite a bit of variance *within* a given manufacturer's lineup as well as across manufacturers--with lenses as good as these two brands--Zeiss & Schneider) it was hard to make a call based on this. Rollei having good support for both makes, is compelling, to say the least--these days, it can be downright shocking to actually get a choice???

    Zeiss' exotic lenses (the Superachromats, and especially the Telephoto Power Pack) were lenses that I spent some time looking at. Unfortunately given the Hasselblad 200-series poor level of digital back support, I couldn't justify sticking with the lineup to get these lenses... Not sure I would have been able to justify it even if the 200's were well-supported, but it would have been worth further investigation.

    Take a look at these samples, and I think you'll get an idea of why the bokeh was such a top-of-mind issue.

    You mention that you've be laboriously going through the same issue--I'm curious to hear about what your top-of-mind issues are and where you stand with them.

    Best regards, Woody,
    Brad

  21. #21
    thsinar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Dear Peter,

    I am quite surprised to read your anger and the way you speak about Sun Studios (formerly Baltronics) in Sydney and Melbourne.

    Whatever you have experienced or the reasons are for you to bash and destroy their reputation this way, I can only contradict your claims: Sun Studios are recognized as being the most trustful, knowledgeable and helpful distributor in AU. I can't obviously speak for Leaf, but you are mentioning Sinar and am speaking on behalf of this company: it is one of our very first distributor in the world, a loyal and trustful partner since more than 20 years, with a very sound record of praises and "thumbs up" from all our customers. And I shall add that most of the employes in this company are the same since the very beginning, from its general manager to the sales responsibles and support people.

    What you see as BS and lies is your own opinion. I can assure that nobody exactly knew when the Hy6 would be ready to be delivered.

    Peter, accusing people from a company of being "charlatans" is a very serious matter. I can't leave it in the air without strongly reacting. I shall forward your words and your post to them.

    It is a blessing to have the internet with its www, but it's sad that it can so easily be used to post claims to destroy a reputation of more than 20 years and throw smears in the public like this.

    Peter: I believe that if you are serious and responsible you should give up your anonymity and come up with your name and details and put a "signature" under your words. You can also contact me via PM: I would be glad to know more details about your claims.

    Thanks and best regards,
    Thierry

    PS - edited for addendum: I shall add that my reaction and disbelief is based on my personal 15 years relationship (and sometimes friendship) with the people of this company, for knowing them quite well to be able to make the judgement that they are not charlatans and liars, like claimed and thrown in the public. Would they be, they would certainly not have survived in the business for so long.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    The dealer and support system is everything.

    I was an early buyer into MFD straight into a Leaf75 3 years ago. I didn't like what Hasselblad was doing with H cameras and I liked the idea of the AFi. However the dealer I bought my Leaf from failed to inform me of the Leaf75s coming out a month after I bought my back and misled me about how long it would take to get the Hy6 platform to the market= more lies and BS and cover ups. The same dealer also sells Sinar here in Australia - and they went out of their way to make me not consider Sinar.

    I think that Leaf produces great files - but the software is clunky and I think Sinar's software is even clunkier. Phase One in Australia - well the dealer is 1000miles away so never got a chance to play here.

    I got to try out an early Hy6 body and a few lenses - and was not impressed with the ergonomics for me - and I made a commitment to NEVER dealing with this dealer group in Australia again anyway and telling anyone who asks what a load of BS I went through - because I hold grudges and never forget or forgive.

    Meanwhile Hasselblad kept on quietly servicing my queries always had stock on hand and was quick to answer questions. So I got to play with Phocus late last year - that was the clincher for me.

    I sold my Leaf - more to get away from these charlatans and moved to a H3D-31 which I tested against a second hand Phase back and Contax - and then quickly moved to a H3d11-39 when the price dropped by $10K.

    If I didnt have an extensive collection of HC lenses, and some rare v series lenses - I think I would have tossed a coin between Phase One and Hasselblad. I will probably buy a P45+ after Photokina and some Mamiya gear.

    I would have bought a Sinar back because you can change the adaptor plates - as I have said many times - this is a killer feature as far as I am concerned - but I am very old fashioned - I despise crooked dealers, lies mistruths and rip-offs.

    There ya go - my decision was more about what dealers support didnt do for me than any particular for or against system prejudice.

    Oh on a final note - I am extremely happy with my blad total workflow and system - but actually dont wish to be a fan boy marketer for any of thee manufacturers - so in the main when guys boast about teh wonderful quality of their Zeiss glass I just laugh to myself and let people enjoy their silliness.

    The best support network you can have is an online community like this - everyone here can ask questions and get real feedback - without the usual dealer bullying and BS.


    Pete
    Last edited by thsinar; 8th June 2008 at 19:06.

  22. #22
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by foto-z View Post
    Ray, in case you are not aware the P21 uses a smaller sensor chip than the 22MP, 33MP and 39MP sensors. This means the crop factor is higher, your lenses become a little more telephoto, and the active area of your viewfinder is a little smaller.

    It's only 1.16 vs. 1.26 if James' math is correct:

    http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...1&#entry197741

  23. #23
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Yes, the difference is not huge. About a 1.1 factor between the two sensor sizes, so a lens which is equivalent to a 28mm one the larger sensor will be equivalent to a 31mm on the smaller sensor.

  24. #24
    Senior Member atanabe's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Ray,
    My MFDB choice was between the Phase One P20 (at the time) or the CFV. My MF system was between the Contax 645 which I love the ergonomics and optics and a Hasselblad V system. When it came down to choosing the system, i eliminated the Contax because it has been discontinued and parts maybe hard to find in the future. I have used Hasselblads since the 70s and found them to be very reliable and easily serviced. Also the price point for the lenses and bodies were very low so getting the most bang for the buck was there.

    As far as backs go, the Phase has the easy to use interface and can be mount switched. But with the "Dumb" Hasselblad bodies, you have to use a cable to sync the back for exposures. This is one very weak point in using a Phase with the V system and I eliminated it based on that point. Image quality, hard to really go one way or the other, high ISO is not a concern of mine. You have a wider choice based on the Contax electronic contacts so a Phase, Aptus, Sinar are all fair game. The Hasselblad CFV solution is pretty straight forward, using existing mechanical trigger and electronic capture delay based on the body. It is not the biggest or highest resolution sensor out there but it produces much better quality images than any 35 DSLR that I have seen.

    MF for me is a tripod or at least monopod shooting so long shutter speeds are not an issue. I do not see my MF used as a candid travel usage so that is why I went with a very old setup to achieve high quality images. Just as in carpentry, you don't use a sledge hammer to pound in finishing nails. The likewise should also be true in camera choices. The Leica M is a perfect travel kit, light weight and great image quality. A 35 DSLR is great for sports and action wildlife, but a bear to lug around. Believe me, I LOVE SLRs they are just too heavy to carry all day long. For me the MFDB is for studio still life or times when you can really set things up just right. Others have shown great candid/wedding shots with the MFDBs, Mark has some great examples.

    But when you come right down to it you have to ask yourself "Is it the right solution for me?" Is this what you really want to spend a whole bucket of money on? MFDBs are not fast action - mega frame buffer capture devices, at 1.7 frames per second does not make it a speed demon for sports or capturing the cheetah chasing down the antelope on the plains. This is subject to change with advances in technology, as are the price points, everyday the price seems to get lower and lower. So you also have to ask yourself is this technology that I can live with for the next xxxx years? These are questions that only you can answer for yourself.

    If you are shooting landscapes, a 4x5 Toyo field or Deardorf field camera will set you back a lot less and get you even better results than MF. Again the right tool for the job. Tough decision to make.

    Regards,
    Al
    Al Tanabe my website https://www.altanabe.com

  25. #25
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    I would like to trow in my two cents worth,of my purchase close to $50K
    I ended up with a Hy6/75LV,the latest version with the larger screen and the rotating adapter.
    It would have been 2 years ago,when I became interested in MFDB to complement
    my 1Ds2.
    I came across some inside info about the Hy6 and liked the idea.
    To choose the platform,we did a test between Phase,Leaf and Sinar.
    At the time,the Sinar file was the nicest + suddenly there was a special and I purchased the e-75 for a great price.
    Since then I have had the upgrade to the LV and now the latest version with the 2.5 inch screen.

    My dealer in Sydney was Baltronics,now Sun Studios and their service is second to none.
    Unlike Peter A I can only speak highly of them.
    I must admit that I've been dealing with them since 1983.
    I still think that Phase(Mamiya) and Hasselblad are also excellent systems.
    Yes,no 28mm for the Hy6,that's the only negative.
    The Alpa with a Schneider will have to do instead.
    Cheers,
    Willem.
    Last edited by Rethmeier; 8th June 2008 at 19:08. Reason: extra

  26. #26
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Thierry - you are welcome to your opinion based on your experiences - I have to live with my experiences. As for defamatory remarks - you have named a company - I haven't.

    btw - my experiences were regarding the background to a purchase of a Leaf back. The only reference I have made to Sinar was that I was discouraged in my initial considerations to even look at Sinar.

    All this happened when I was new to MFD and was very naive regarding many things in MFD land. The facts of the matter are was that I was misled by a salesperson - to my great cost. In my experience dealing with reputable companies - the company takes responsibility for poor behaviour of their staff - this company has made no attempt to remedy my legitimate concerns.

    For your information I have spent well over $50,000 AUD through this company - in order to learn the hard way just how ordinary and unprofessional companies and their salespeople can be.

    For your information I have met a number of very nice people and very helpful people from that company including the MD who visited my offices. So what? being 'nice' doesn't remedy misleading and deceptive behavior on the part of previous employees. Making 'good' remedies these things.

    Sure a person from the company has patiently listened to me and even helped with some issues that they coudl help with involving some time..but this person wasn't who I was dealing with - and this person couldnt make good my personal cost...

    I am by nature a very patient relaxed person Thierry - but the same company sold me a very expensive printer 2 weeks after they sold me this printer - a newer version which solved for some problems I continue to experience hit the market. Again I was sold - yesterdays technology for today's prices..without being informed of the total picture.

    How many times does a person have to experience these things before they lose patience.??

    I will tell you something else Thierry- the Leaf rep in Honk Kong was entertained by me at one of my private properties after enjoying a day, I would have imagined that if I had an issue or a question I would have got some service or recognition - sadly I got the reverse.

    Anyway - the point I was making was very clearly spelled out - make sure of the relationship you have with your dealer and rep - that is the MOST important thing in the MFD game.

    If you think this is a distressful story - imagine how I felt..still these are only things, not of great consequence in life. Fortunately I can afford to make error in judgements. I suspect that many in this forum are less able to afford such costs.

    You are welcome to visit me any time you are in Australia.

  27. #27
    thsinar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Dear Peter,

    I have named a company because it is easy to check out who is the Sinar/Leaf distributor: there is only one, and I know that every single photographer in the whole AU knows this company. So no need to hide the name.

    I do react, though you are speaking mainly about another brand, simply because it is the very same distributor representing Sinar, and therefore harmed both ways.

    What I would really appreciate, is to be able to put a name behind such accusations. I am still believing that if one does post or publish something like you did, then one has the courage to put a name below these words.

    I do not know you, I cannot comment and reply to your claims and this distributor has no chance whatsoever to defend himself. In my 1 1/2 + years as a member of some of the leading forums in the world, I have come to one very important conclusion: there is ALWAYS 2 sides in a story, always. Whenever there is a complain, anonymous or signed, I do take it seriously and do a follow-up check. Most of the time I could get the details of these claims and get a clear picture of the whole, by listening both sides and by having a direct contact with the "claimer": it ALWAYS came out that what was said and published was only part of the whole story. Most of the time the "claimer" would tell me a "detail" which he did "forget" to mention in his post, and which would have given a totally different picture of the issue.

    I do write here because if such behaviour from one of our distributor is reality and if it comes out to be somehow the truth, then we (understand Sinar) do react and ask for explanations and a change of this behaviour.

    Thanks and best regards,
    Thierry



    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Thierry - you are welcome to your opinion based on your experiences - I have to live with my experiences. As for defamatory remarks - you have named a company - I haven't.

    btw - my experiences were regarding the background to a purchase of a Leaf back. The only reference I have made to Sinar was that I was discouraged in my initial considerations to even look at Sinar.

    All this happened when I was new to MFD and was very naive regarding many things in MFD land. The facts of the matter are was that I was misled by a salesperson - to my great cost. In my experience dealing with reputable companies - the company takes responsibility for poor behaviour of their staff - this company has made no attempt to remedy my legitimate concerns.

    For your information I have spent well over $50,000 AUD through this company - in order to learn the hard way just how ordinary and unprofessional companies and their salespeople can be.

    For your information I have met a number of very nice people and very helpful people from that company including the MD who visited my offices. So what? being 'nice' doesn't remedy misleading and deceptive behavior on the part of previous employees. Making 'good' remedies these things.

    Sure a person from the company has patiently listened to me and even helped with some issues that they coudl help with involving some time..but this person wasn't who I was dealing with - and this person couldnt make good my personal cost...

    I am by nature a very patient relaxed person Thierry - but the same company sold me a very expensive printer 2 weeks after they sold me this printer - a newer version which solved for some problems I continue to experience hit the market. Again I was sold - yesterdays technology for today's prices..without being informed of the total picture.

    How many times does a person have to experience these things before they lose patience.??

    I will tell you something else Thierry- the Leaf rep in Honk Kong was entertained by me at one of my private properties after enjoying a day, I would have imagined that if I had an issue or a question I would have got some service or recognition - sadly I got the reverse.

    Anyway - the point I was making was very clearly spelled out - make sure of the relationship you have with your dealer and rep - that is the MOST important thing in the MFD game.

    If you think this is a distressful story - imagine how I felt..still these are only things, not of great consequence in life. Fortunately I can afford to make error in judgements. I suspect that many in this forum are less able to afford such costs.

    You are welcome to visit me any time you are in Australia.

  28. #28
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Bradley,

    Thanks for your response. Enjoy your new camera!

    Your pictures really make your point about the importance of bokeh, and push me more towards the Hy6. Nice.

    Look forward to hearing more when you get your new camera.

    Best,

    Mitchell

  29. #29
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Peter,

    FWIW speaking as a dealer myself, I take pride in providing honest guidance and suggestions to my customers. Sometimes dealers are stuck in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Manufacturers are getting more and more secretive and the Internet is getting more pervasive in rumor mongering. Here's an example:

    I've already told a lot of potential Canon 5D buyers not to buy for months now as I believed the replacement was imminent and to that end, I also stopped ordering and stocking this item. I get no "inside" info as to what Canon has planned, just a gut feeling and the countless rumors. Unfortunately for me, Canon has not announced or delivered the 5D mk2 (or whatever) as expected/rumored (April 22 is long gone). If I had sold these cameras and the next week the new camera came out, would I be dishonest or a cheat? Am I a fool for not selling what customers ask for?

    If I tell someone that I'm not sure when a new product will be available it is the truth, not a sales pitch to buy something else. Your experience may just be a case of bad timing. I know of many disreputable camera shops and of many well-regarded ones as well. I've never been down under so I can't speak to your local dealer, but Thiery does seem to hold them in high regard. If you'd like an idea of who real charlatans are, check out the BBB online report on Broadway Photo (to name just one). Something tells me your shop in Sydney is not in the same league as these guys.

    Just my 2 cents.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

  30. #30
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    I've dealt with David for many years now, and a lot of other folks here have done the same. When it comes to dealer support David and Steve Hendrix come to my mind as exemplary. I especially like it when David takes back a lens, say a Leica 28 Cron, from a buyer who's had it a week and decided he'd rather have something else, and then sells it to me at a big discount

  31. #31
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    My story: Let's go back a bit here when i was shooting film it was Hassy's and i always loved MF camera's but when i left a real job many moons ago i was stuck in a spot when MF backs were more like buying a new Porche. So i could not continue shooting MF and go to digital. I was reentering the public market again coming from 16 years of chief photographer of a big company and was laid off after 9/11 so money was at a premium. So i went DSLR Kodak 760 to be exact and than moved to canon and was really not happy with there glass. At that time I bought Zeiss and Leica glass to bolt on to the Canons. But I always struggled to get better images and noting would do it than I bought the DMR and M8 systems and they really proved to be the 35mm answer. But there slow, expensive and the M8 is hard to be the only boat at the dock. So i bought Nikon D300 and was really prepared to buy a D3 and even had 5k in my pocket when I went to Carmel. But something came over me and it was the same damn I had for 7 years with a DSLR and i said to myself i really am buying nothing more here with this purchase with image quality and hell folks if any of you have followed my purchases there has been a load of stuff and worse yet i was always the first one to get the new toy and worked my butt off to get stuff to work as they should.

    Well this time i bought something that at least has been out awhile , I bought the Mamiya ZD and I knew what exactly would happen next move up more. But I wanted to get in the door. Also the last thing I need was another brick in my hands that i need to make better and when i was in San Juan playing with the Phase back, knowing of the support that i would get and the fact it took me 1 minute to figure out the back and shoot and get real results without dicking around. I want something that just works and works well. Honestly after seeing david struggle with the Sinar ther was no way in hell i would go down that path. Sorry Sinar folks but be it new to the system or not the thing had issues. Not saying they all do but and maybe a rare case but turned me off immediately. Sorry i was not buying another camera that I had to fix or struggle with. Sorry Sinar folks that was my impression as well as everyone on the workshop( Please don't take that in a bad way there was some issues with his camera and back and just brought up memories ). The other reason was lance and CI commitment to making me happy. The sturdy build great files and ease of use with the soft keys made me really like the Phase backs and also i used C1 for years and they just make great software for there camera's and one of the oldest in the business doing it. I chose the P25 for the 9 micron Kodak sensor also. i happen to think that is a sweet spot for a 22 mpx back. That has been my impression right or wrong. But i am very happy with my decision and better yet feel no need to upgrade anytime shortly. i actually think I found some peace within myself on gear and for s junkie like me that been pushing the image quality issue for so long that is saying a lot. Also I am tired of being the guinea pig with my money, I wanted something that has been tested and works. Bottom line I just want to shoot

    Pardon my spelling been working on a book for the last 48 hours and haf had about 7 hours sleep total in those 2 days. Finally over the hump on it and return to a normal life soon without 8 cups of Espresso a day
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  32. #32
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Reithmeir - I am glad that you have had a good working relationship with Sun Studios in Sydney. I hear great things about them.

    Thierry

    Please stop naming companies and suggesting that that is what I have done.

    I have made it PERFECTLY CLEAR that I hold NO COMPANY responsible for what happened to me - except to say that ANY COMPANY should make good to a client the promises , undertakings understandings entered into by a client as represented to him or her by an employee.

    IF you have a problem with this as a way of doing business - just tell the forum. DO NOT suggest that my experience is is not possible - how rude!

    IF you had any interest regarding my experience and felt that this MAY have been of interest to SINAR - then all you had to do was mail me privately.

    Again I repeat to all would be MFD buyers - consider carefully the type of person whom you intend to deal with BEFORE you decide on what gear.

    Guy - I have consciously entered into buying stuff to test for myself KNOWING that I woud change my mind and move on later - thats a fact of life for gearheads! LOL This is especialy true after going through the experiences related above - now I know I only have one person to blame - ME!

    Different thing to be told one, two, three things and sold on this basis only to find out later it was all BS or wrong...sure maybe it was all my fault! LOL

    Cheers
    Pete

  33. #33
    Natasa Stojsic
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    Yes,no 28mm for the Hy6,that's the only negative.
    The Alpa with a Schneider will have to do instead.
    Cheers,
    Willem.
    Willem, I had a chance to work with Alpa and both Schneider 24 & Rodenstock 28mm lenses. Both lenses are amazing, you can't make mistake.... except when guestimating focus, but since it's digital.. make sure you shoot tethered, because I had a problem evaluating sharpness using DB screens alone of H3D, Leaf Aptus75s including P45+! I thought I had it 100% in focus, later to my surprise I found most of them soft.....


    BTW: I decided after using Canon 1Ds MkII & Leica M8 it was time to make a switch.... At first... I thought Leaf was my option and I should stick with Leaf! To make long story short, I tried calling.... left a messages, reading LL forum to keep me up to date of what is going on and still no replys, no deals, no progress! Friend of mine... introduced Jo Behar from Vistek (Hi Jo, if you're reading) and he was very quick, efficient and helpufull even after the sale.... saved me a ton of money in every respect and most importantly never watched time on his wrist

    Obviously none of these systems are perfect! So, my point is.... to me convinience is priority numero uno and this is why I use Phase, everything else I can build around it!!!
    Last edited by Natasa Stojsic; 8th June 2008 at 22:21.

  34. #34
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Pete,
    I can relate to the term of "Gearheads"
    After owning almost every camera brand,I decided to give Rollei a go and I know for sure that I did the right thing.
    In 5 years time?
    Who knows,maybe time to retire(62)?
    Cheers,
    Willem.

  35. #35
    thsinar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    David,

    I don't think having been rude, in the contrary. All I am saying or asking for is to put a name under your words, because your accusations are grave and serious and do harm a company's name and its employes.

    YES, you did not name a company, and now you are claiming that you don't make this company (which you don't name) responsible:

    Here some of your quotes:

    "... the dealer I bought my Leaf from failed to inform me ..."

    "... and I made a commitment to NEVER dealing with this dealer group in Australia again ..."

    "... and telling anyone who asks what a load of BS ..."

    " ... I despise crooked dealers, lies mistruths and rip-offs ..."

    " ... more to get away from these charlatans ..."

    Hey Peter, those are very grave accusations, aren't they?
    And you would like me to "shut up"? Let's remain serious. There are accusations and the accused (in this case I am a little part of it) have the right to answer and defend themselves. I give you the "chance" to speak out your real reasons to be angered, by contacting me off, and to shed some light and details about your experience, so why not taking it?

    Do you honestly think that it is so difficult to find out who you are speaking about? I respect what you are saying and do not even doubt that you had this (bad) experience, all I am saying is that there is ALWAYS 2 sides in a story and that I like to know whom I am speaking to when such accusations are made. And don't forget one important thing: there are hundreds if not thousands reading here and in forums in general. One cannot make accusations such as yours without expecting an answer in return.

    You say now that I should have contacted you via PM or email: actually I did make you this proposal in my first answer, that you contact me to clear things up.

    "You can also contact me via PM: I would be glad to know more details about your claims".

    And I still have much interest (as well as Sinar) to know more about this, of course.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Thierry

    Please stop naming companies and suggesting that that is what I have done.

    I have made it PERFECTLY CLEAR that I hold NO COMPANY responsible for what happened to me - except to say that ANY COMPANY should make good to a client the promises , undertakings understandings entered into by a client as represented to him or her by an employee.

    IF you have a problem with this as a way of doing business - just tell the forum. DO NOT suggest that my experience is is not possible - how rude!

    IF you had any interest regarding my experience and felt that this MAY have been of interest to SINAR - then all you had to do was mail me privately.

    Again I repeat to all would be MFD buyers - consider carefully the type of person whom you intend to deal with BEFORE you decide on what gear.

    Guy - I have consciously entered into buying stuff to test for myself KNOWING that I woud change my mind and move on later - thats a fact of life for gearheads! LOL This is especialy true after going through the experiences related above - now I know I only have one person to blame - ME!

    Different thing to be told one, two, three things and sold on this basis only to find out later it was all BS or wrong...sure maybe it was all my fault! LOL

    Cheers
    Pete
    Last edited by thsinar; 8th June 2008 at 23:00.

  36. #36
    thsinar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Guy,

    I am sorry, but I have to correct it once again: there were no camera or back issues like you suggest it. David has listed these issues here and all had nothing to do with a camera or back problem. In fact we (his dealer, myself and the tech people at Sinar) went through and explained/solved these "issues" within less than 24 hours.

    That you prefer the Phase back is respectable, but don't say that David has struggled with his system because it did not work or had some issues, like it is suggested. I am the first to recognize and admit such, and am honest enough to do so, but let's stick to the facts.

    Thanks and best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Honestly after seeing david struggle with the Sinar ther was no way in hell i would go down that path. Sorry Sinar folks but be it new to the system or not the thing had issues. Not saying they all do but and maybe a rare case but turned me off immediately. Sorry i was not buying another camera that I had to fix or struggle with. Sorry Sinar folks that was my impression as well as everyone on the workshop( Please don't take that in a bad way there was some issues with his camera and back and just brought up memories ).

  37. #37
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Since we are into naming specifc dealers with endorsements for good personal service, I can say that my dealer Jim Arnosky of City Lights Stage in Troy, Michigan is one of the best I've ever dealt with ... and I've dealt with quite a few.

    I cannot tell you how many hours Jim has patiently aided me in my quest to get the most from my Hasselblad digital system ... well beyond the usual good service that should be automatic with this type of purchase ... including setting up any purchase and checking it completly before personally deliveing it to my studio ... then spending hours setting up everything and demonstrating each feature ... he's been here multiple times.

    Jim is an accomplished professional photographer himself, and works for City Lights Stage ... which formed a digital division to aid other professional photographers using their facility. He has a strong relationship with Hasselblad sales and support, and anything he doesn't know (which isn't much) he finds out immediately.

    The key to this great relationship is straight up, cut through the BS and marketing retoric, information. More of a photographer's POV than that of a sales person's ... so if it's hype, he says so. Plus he looks out for me. When I ordered a CFV-II and the promo news of the 40IF bundle broke, he tracked me down to make sure I had the option before my camera was to ship that very day. When the H3D-II/31 promo price broke, he again tracked me down with an additional "special deal" which I leapt on in a NY heart beat.

    Give him a call if interested in Hasselblad, (he represents other stuff, but my experience has been with that brand and the Rollei Xact2 I purchased from him):

    (248) 589-9000

    [email protected]

  38. #38
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    My story: Let's go back a bit here when i was shooting film it was Hassy's and i always loved MF camera's but when i left a real job many moons ago i was stuck in a spot when MF backs were more like buying a new Porche. So i could not continue shooting MF and go to digital. I was reentering the public market again coming from 16 years of chief photographer of a big company and was laid off after 9/11 so money was at a premium. So i went DSLR Kodak 760 to be exact and than moved to canon and was really not happy with there glass. At that time I bought Zeiss and Leica glass to bolt on to the Canons. But I always struggled to get better images and noting would do it than I bought the DMR and M8 systems and they really proved to be the 35mm answer. But there slow, expensive and the M8 is hard to be the only boat at the dock. So i bought Nikon D300 and was really prepared to buy a D3 and even had 5k in my pocket when I went to Carmel. But something came over me and it was the same damn I had for 7 years with a DSLR and i said to myself i really am buying nothing more here with this purchase with image quality and hell folks if any of you have followed my purchases there has been a load of stuff and worse yet i was always the first one to get the new toy and worked my butt off to get stuff to work as they should.

    Well this time i bought something that at least has been out awhile , I bought the Mamiya ZD and I knew what exactly would happen next move up more. But I wanted to get in the door. Also the last thing I need was another brick in my hands that i need to make better and when i was in San Juan playing with the Phase back, knowing of the support that i would get and the fact it took me 1 minute to figure out the back and shoot and get real results without dicking around. I want something that just works and works well. Honestly after seeing david struggle with the Sinar ther was no way in hell i would go down that path. Sorry Sinar folks but be it new to the system or not the thing had issues. Not saying they all do but and maybe a rare case but turned me off immediately. Sorry i was not buying another camera that I had to fix or struggle with. Sorry Sinar folks that was my impression as well as everyone on the workshop( Please don't take that in a bad way there was some issues with his camera and back and just brought up memories ). The other reason was lance and CI commitment to making me happy. The sturdy build great files and ease of use with the soft keys made me really like the Phase backs and also i used C1 for years and they just make great software for there camera's and one of the oldest in the business doing it. I chose the P25 for the 9 micron Kodak sensor also. i happen to think that is a sweet spot for a 22 mpx back. That has been my impression right or wrong. But i am very happy with my decision and better yet feel no need to upgrade anytime shortly. i actually think I found some peace within myself on gear and for s junkie like me that been pushing the image quality issue for so long that is saying a lot. Also I am tired of being the guinea pig with my money, I wanted something that has been tested and works. Bottom line I just want to shoot

    Pardon my spelling been working on a book for the last 48 hours and haf had about 7 hours sleep total in those 2 days. Finally over the hump on it and return to a normal life soon without 8 cups of Espresso a day
    Guy, IMO, this is the most revealing post here as it applies to working stiffs. For those that don't shoot to put bread on the table, there is less realization that the tool needs to sort of "disappear" into the background.

    There are so many other aspects to making commercial images that dominate your time and mental energy, that the last thing you want is to be fussing with the gear. You pay a food stylist to get the stuff ready ... and when it is you better be ready to shoot now, as the window of freshness is small. Paying models by the hour with the client who's doing the paying watching every thin dime ... there is no time for "down time." Or some corporate CEO gives you 5 minutes to get the shot, and won't leave his office to do so ... or they bring the experimental car to the set with guards, and tell you you have it for an hour before it gets trucked to the auto show.

    It's all well and good to talk all the nuances, and how doing this or that in this or that sequence will squeeze a nano amount more of IQ, but often all that goes out the window in the real world. Turn the sucker on and it better give me its best shot then and there. Finicky? No thanks. I had enough of finicky in the past.

  39. #39
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Please fotografz,
    if this is referring to David K's issues, than you're of the mark.
    At the moment there are hundreds of pros shooting with the Hy6/75LV combo with no problems or issues.
    Cheers,
    Willem.

    N.B Nice pics on your post btw!

  40. #40
    thsinar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    I think that David has made it clear, after he discussed his issues with his dealer and our distributor, that they were not back or camera issues, but related to a lack of use and knowledge about certain settings.

    I am surprised that this comes up again here in Guy's mouth and played high once more.

    I do myself always speak out what I have in my heart, but I would always avoid to speak bad and than insist on it about any other brand than the one I do represent (and it happened that I DID speak bad about some Sinar related issues). I would think that mentioning it once would be enough.

    I am not sure if doing so is helping anybody. What I am however sure of is that it will influence my way of posting here and that I will be more "careful" about what I show and what I tell.

    To anybody: don't feel offended. I do simply speak it out how I feel it.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    Please fotografz,
    if this is referring to David K's issues, than you're of the mark.
    At the moment there are hundreds of pros shooting with the Hy6/75LV combo with no problems or issues.
    Cheers,
    Willem.

    N.B Nice pics on your post btw!

  41. #41
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Well said Thierry!
    And yes folks, I do have a Hy6/75LV and for me it's the kit I wanted.
    All manual lenses,for a good price(sort of)I don't need and dislike AF.
    I don't even use AF with my Canon.
    But,of course this is personal.
    I don't shoot kids or moving animals etc.
    Have a good night or morning wherever you are.
    Cheers,
    WR

  42. #42
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Thierry - is English a second language for you? Perhaps if this is the case - then I can forgive your obvious mis-understandings.

    Please read carefully what I have typed - and please understand that a person can move from the specific to the general in the same post.

    I had a specifically bad experience with a dealer. When I use the word dealer it is a specific person - dealership is what we call the company - dealer is the individual.

    Did I not say that there were many nice people in the company? Yes I did.
    Did I not say that they tried to help as they could ? Yes I did.
    Did I not say that being nice is not enough - that making good is the test? Yes I did.

    I really am at a loss as to your carry on.


    Why are you selectively quoting me like some second rate sleuth trying to cause mischief.
    What is your agenda here?

    Similarly - who are you to demand my 'name'?
    Who are you to ask me to email you?

    As I said to you before - this has nothing to do with an experience regarding Sinar. So why should I email you? The best way to manage these situations - is to never buy or sell from such places again - what is your problem with that?

    Judging by the way you have helped people in here who have had problems - clearly you care about getting it right - a pity then that not ALL people who deal in various manufacturer's backs and products have the same attitude.

    As for what you term are my 'significant statements' - my personal experiences ARE significant to me. This thread is general about why people choose backs.

    MY message was to be careful WHO you deal with and I used an example of what I had to put up with to illustrate a simple truth - which has been repeated by EVERY contributor in here - apart from yourself.

    Choose a dealer - or dealership ( see the difference?) that you trust to service you.

    What is your problem? YOU are the one who has named names and tried to put words in my mouth.

    I stand by everything I say and everything I have said - and if you wish to continue - I will be LESS reserved in my responses. Now go try and bully someone else.

    Cheerio
    Pete

  43. #43
    thsinar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Thierry - is English a second language for you? Perhaps if this is the case - then I can forgive your obvious mis-understandings.
    Yes it is, it does however not prevent me to understand what is written.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Please read carefully what I have typed - and please understand that a person can move from the specific to the general in the same post.
    I do refer to your very first post: that you have somehow "corrected" in the second is clear to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I had a specifically bad experience with a dealer. When I use the word dealer it is a specific person - dealership is what we call the company - dealer is the individual.
    You DID speak about the company or at least so it can be understood, since "dealer" can be taken both ways: the definition of the word "dealer" seems to be quite clear in my dictionnary at home:

    "Dealer": an individual OR company whose business is buying or selling, ...

    Moreover: you say now that you spoke about one person, but you have also clearly said the word "they". Which leads me to think you mean all the people there, respectively the company.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Did I not say that there were many nice people in the company? Yes I did.
    Did I not say that they tried to help as they could ? Yes I did.
    Did I not say that being nice is not enough - that making good is the test? Yes I did.
    Not in your very first post and words.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I really am at a loss as to your carry on.

    Why are you selectively quoting me like some second rate sleuth trying to cause mischief.
    I simply remind, by quoting, that what you have written is a serious accusation. In some countries it could (and would) lead to a law case.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    What is your agenda here?
    None other than to help, as seriously and as professionally as possible, ALL members with ALL brands, and to correct misleading and wrong information or purposely posted lies or false claims (not speaking about you here), nothing else.

    I have explained in my very first post here why I am here and what is my purpose to be: I am here on my own choice, not asked by my employer and not even asking for the permission, free to speak out what I think to be right or not. Nobody has asked me to be here, nor on any other forum. And I have no sales intentions or advantages when some Sinar products are sold. I love photography: is that a reason valid enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Similarly - who are you to demand my 'name'?
    Who are you to ask me to email you?
    Well, I have put a name and a signature under my words, each and any time. I simply do not believe in anonymity when it comes to speak the way you did about somebody or a company. That is my opinion.

    You are right, I am noboby, and do not pretend to be someone: life shows me every day that there are ways more important things than being somebody.

    I have simply "offered" you, without any pretention, to explain to me what happened, to give me the chance to understand your anger and frustration, to allow me to speak with our distributor and to may be correct something which went really wrong, nothing more.

    I do not force you to write to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    As I said to you before - this has nothing to do with an experience regarding Sinar. So why should I email you? The best way to manage these situations - is to never buy or sell from such places again - what is your problem with that?
    You are right here, it has nothing to do with Sinar directly. Nevertheless, it does concern the same company representing the 2 brands, and the 2 brands are harmed the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Judging by the way you have helped people in here who have had problems - clearly you care about getting it right - a pity then that not ALL people who deal in various manufacturer's backs and products have the same attitude.
    I am "blind" when it comes to help somebody and don't see the brand or the gear this person is using. So it should and will always be.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    As for what you term are my 'significant statements' - my personal experiences ARE significant to me. This thread is general about why people choose backs.
    You are right, I cannot and do not wish to contradict this, it's respectable.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    MY message was to be careful WHO you deal with and I used an example of what I had to put up with to illustrate a simple truth - which has been repeated by EVERY contributor in here - apart from yourself.
    Obviously I do sign under this as well, that one should know the company or the person with which/whom one is dealing and doing business.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Choose a dealer - or dealership ( see the difference?) that you trust to service you.
    see above: "dealer" has 2 meanings, either way is right. But now that you have explained yours, I do take it as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    What is your problem? YOU are the one who has named names and tried to put words in my mouth.
    I have no problem other than avoiding misunderstandings and getting things in the right light, as well as understanding both sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I stand by everything I say and everything I have said - and if you wish to continue - I will be LESS reserved in my responses. Now go try and bully someone else.

    Cheerio
    Pete
    So do I, standing by all I have said. I do not wish to continue, so we agree to disagree, best thing to do. As for "bully": well, I didn't know that I was an intimidating or mistreating person, nor did anybody ever told me I was, and I do certainly not think that you are a weak person. I have respected your person any time.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

  44. #44
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    Please fotografz,
    if this is referring to David K's issues, than you're of the mark.
    At the moment there are hundreds of pros shooting with the Hy6/75LV combo with no problems or issues.
    Cheers,
    Willem.

    N.B Nice pics on your post btw!
    I think maybe you Sinar folks are getting over defensive. And if hundreds of pros use Sinar is the logic for endorsement, then Phase One is the over-whelming one to choose since more pros use that brand than any other. BTW, there are "Hundreds" of Hy6s on the job already? Where is that statistic?

    Guy is a working stiff just like thousands of others. While gear is a hot topic here, it's a small percent of what's on the mind when shooting a job with a deadline and hundreds of details to orchestrate. Not a time you want to be dealing with BS from the gear.

    I've had all kinds of issues with all kinds of backs ... so NO, I'm not referencing a specific experience like Guy did, I wasn't there ... he was. But I sympathize with the concept he was conveying ... KISS: keep it simple stupid.

    My experiences have been: a Kodak back on a Contax 645 that could not achieve critical focus with a 80 @ f/2 ... Kodak blamed Kyocera, Kyocera blamed Kodak ... their problem became my problem. A H2D/CFH22 that shot straight DNGs that was possessed by the Devil ... Hasselblad gave me a new camera that didn't shoot DNGs and a 3 year hot swap warranty no questions asked; then there were all the various backs that required shims to zero in the focus, or the adapter for my RZ to mount a Kodak Proback that had to be duct-taped on because it liked to unlock and drop the back to the floor if anyone in the room sneezed ... or the Rodenstock 120 APO Macro that simply wasn't sharp ... and no amount of shim rings could make it so ... still waiting for that replacement ... or a slew of Hard Drives from Lacie that won't work with the latest OSX version because the firmware needs updated, and one needs a degree from MIT to figure out their down-load system ... or mondo expensive firewire repeater hubs for tethered shooting to the computer that like to start on fire ... and the cords that are so stiff that they destroy the camera firewire out-port ... I could go on and on ...

    So NO, I'm not referencing any one brand or incident.

  45. #45
    thsinar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Not really Mark, just wishing to get things straight and right, as they were, and not willing to let a wrong impression or false claim stand in the room, in front of the eyes of hundreds of members. Understandable. And as such I shall always intervene.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I think maybe you Sinar folks are getting over defensive.

  46. #46
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Marc,
    I can tell you right now that if Sinar didn't sell hundreds of these outfits,why would they bother?
    The Hy6 will be a success in the years to come,wether it's coupled to a Sinar,Leaf and maybe a Phase back.
    There are a lot of Phase owners,that would love to stick their back on a Hy6.
    It might not be a weddingshooters rig,however it does suit a lot of people.
    I have nothing again Phase or Leaf etc,I just choose the best system for my needs.
    End of story.
    Have a nice day,as they say in the US.
    Cheers,
    Willem.

  47. #47
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Not really Mark, just wishing to get things straight and right, as they were, and not willing to let a wrong impression or false claim stand in the room, in front of the eyes of hundreds of members. Understandable. And as such I shall always intervene.

    Thierry
    Uh ... my post was in answer to Willem's statement ... which I quoted.

    It appears you have selectively read my response where I clarified in no uncertain terms that my reference was general, not about one incident or brand.

    Frankly, If folks can't come here and relate their experiences without some brand zealot jumping down their throat at every turn, then the dialog is going to get pretty narrow and loose any value.

    For example, if Guy relates some issue in operational ease according to his experience as a working pro, I believe him ... people can take it for what it's worth.
    But, it's not the first time I've heard that the system is finicky, including from Sinar users. You guys may be working that all out, but it is more complex than getting to work shooting photographs like with a Phase One or Hasselbald H3D ... or so it seems.

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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Sorry Marc,
    we must have been typing at the same time!
    Cheers,
    Willem.

  49. #49
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Uh ... my post was in answer to Willem's statement ... which I quoted.

    It appears you have selectively read my response where I clarified in no uncertain terms that my reference was general, not about one incident or brand.

    Frankly, If folks can't come here and relate their experiences without some brand zealot jumping down their throat at every turn, then the dialog is going to get pretty narrow and loose any value.

    For example, if Guy relates some issue in operational ease according to his experience as a working pro, I believe him ... people can take it for what it's worth.
    But, it's not the first time I've heard that the system is finicky, including from Sinar users. You guys may be working that all out, but it is more complex than getting to work shooting photographs like with a Phase One or Hasselbald H3D ... or so it seems.

    Basically that is all i was saying not knocking Sinar or anyone so let's get the record straight, what I saw and what others witnessed was David was struggling and losing images having images corrupted and things like this . As Marc points out I don't need a finicky camera. Now there was some problems with this back and 12 witnesses on site . Yes most of his issues have gone away and whatever it was either Davids learning curve or something wrong he struggled and if anyone on this board feels i am off base , sorry it was what we saw and what lead me to make my comment. I will NOT sit here and avoid that issue he was having. Not saying it will happen ever again either but everyone else picked up the Phase backs all week without a issue at all. Now how would anyone look at this. I do think the Sinar folks are being over defensive, **** happens guys let's face the facts and it could have happened to any system. Ever system i owned had issues of some nature. Hell I had Canon, Nikon, DMR and let's not forget the mother of issues the M8. Love them all but they all had something funky going on. One other note David had the old back and not the new one which he is getting and i hope it is a better back than what was on site. But let's not forget software in all this.

    Now let's end the misery right now also Peter felt slighted in some way from a dealer, that is his right and what he felt . It is not a grave acquisition but what he felt is wrong and he has the right to say so. His opinion and his feelings and frankly he does not need to explain it either. Thierry understandable wants to know who and wants to solve that issue , again that is his job at Sinar and he has that right also. But i think we are making this all to grave looking also. Hell guy's **** happens in all walks in this business. Let me add one more thing if i had the money for the Sinar what I saw would not stop me from buying it either if i felt it would work in my behave. There freaking sexy as can be and have awesome glass but like any system i want it to work and have the support for it and that would enter into my buying decision as it did with the Phase. You have to look at my comments as one of the owners and instructors of a workshop where my client David was not having fun with his gear and just for the record it made Jack and I not happy to watch him struggle. At the end of the day i offered him a 30 percent discount for any workshop he wanted to join us on. You have to put yourself in my shoes to understand what my comments are not that i don't want anyone to buy a Sinar far from it. I would love others as well to buy them but I want folks to be happy with there gear.

    Please let's move on and let this die , it really serves not much purpose at this point. It's out there and not a big deal either. But i would like to hear more on this topic because it is very interesting to learn what prompted decisions on these backs and we have a lot of folks looking at buying, so let's help them.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  50. #50
    thsinar
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    Re: Why did you choose your back?

    Marc,

    May be again my language problem: you have written " ... you Sinar folks ...", so I feel been spoken on as well.

    To put a final point to this alleged issues with David's Sinarback eMotion 75: yes, there are people who say that it is more "complicated" to use as e.g. Phase. I have heard this. On the other hand, I have also heard many others saying the opposite. But I have never heard it to be compared that way to Hasselblad backs, although that surely is the case as well. It all depends on which side you are standing, and I respect any view point.

    What I don't find to be acceptable and which I cannot let stand in the room, is Guy's second mention of what happened and the way it is said:

    " ... Sorry Sinar folks but be it new to the system or not the thing had issues. Not saying they all do but and maybe a rare case but turned me off immediately. Sorry i was not buying another camera that I had to fix or struggle with. Sorry Sinar folks that was my impression ..."

    The "thing" DID NOT have issues or whatsoever is suggested, and there was NOTHING to be fixed, neither on the camera nor on the back. I feel sorry, but if anybody feels that it is not my right to correct words or sentences which are misleading, then stand up and tell me.

    I say this with respect but firmly. It is exactly for the very reason that Guy is somebody who is listened to that I wish to be given the right to my view of the things.

    Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
    Thierry


    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Uh ... my post was in answer to Willem's statement ... which I quoted.

    It appears you have selectively read my response where I clarified in no uncertain terms that my reference was general, not about one incident or brand.

    Frankly, If folks can't come here and relate their experiences without some brand zealot jumping down their throat at every turn, then the dialog is going to get pretty narrow and loose any value.

    For example, if Guy relates some issue in operational ease according to his experience as a working pro, I believe him ... people can take it for what it's worth.
    But, it's not the first time I've heard that the system is finicky, including from Sinar users. You guys may be working that all out, but it is more complex than getting to work shooting photographs like with a Phase One or Hasselbald H3D ... or so it seems.

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