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Thread: S2 Impressions: A year later.

  1. #101
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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Oh Woody, we need to talk !!!!

    Is there some setting I am missing to use just straight TTL with the SF58? All other mode settings work ... TTL/HSS, M, A ... but I can't get just TTL to fire.

    I am using Manual camera exposure mode and setting various shutter speeds below the top sync speed of 1/125th ... 1/30th, 1/60th ... no joy. Tried A exposure mode (1/60th) ... no joy. TTL fires on my M9 so it isn't the flash unit.

    My main concern now is the shutter locking up. That is a big no-no for the wedding work I do.

    BTW it is 12/2010 ... and the S2 has the latest firmware which is pretty recent ... this month I think ... it came installed in the camera.

    Thanks,

    -Marc
    Marc

    The latest firmware is 1.0.0.24. It was just released on December 22nd so may not be in your particular camera. Check it out and if need be, download the latest from Leica

    Happy New Year

    Woody

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Guy, new site looks good. I have a few "Art Director" comments I'll PM to you ... once an Art Director, always an Art Director

    Have to agree that the S2 isn't going to "Smoke Phase or Hassey", and for sure the playing field is pretty competitive with users that have stiff standards. IMO, if Leica had tried to play the same ergo game, they would have been still-born. The attraction is the form, a reasonable expectation of great glass, and the possibility of narrowing down to a simpler set for a wider range of applications.

    For sure it is all a PITA to do this if you already are into something else. However, I'm sort of at a milestone in my life and it's now or never. We'll see.

    -Marc
    Marc first OT read your comments and like the ideas a lot and it ran through my brain also so will make those adjustments very easy to do actually. Thanks i needed another sharp eye on that and was hoping you give me a little Art Director guidance. Hard editing your own stuff.

    I know your at that milestone and I can see it fit you in several ways. I also did not see earlier how it would fit you in the combination again to your existing gear but yes I can see it taking on the role over the Sony with a little more punch. LOL

    Some punch. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Marc

    The latest firmware is 1.0.0.24. It was just released on December 22nd so may not be in your particular camera. Check it out and if need be, download the latest from Leica

    Happy New Year

    Woody
    Yep, that's the one in the camera.

    And I checked that the lens firmware is up to date also.

    I'm shooting a job tomorrow AM and tomorrow evening. I'm not 100% in tune with the S2 operational work flow yet so I'll have my Sony with me also (which I could operate with a blindfold on after using for so long.

    Happy New Year back at ya!

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Hey Marc

    When I first got my SF 58 I had the same problem. However David Farkas instructed me that the TTL feature does not work with the S2. One must work with the TTL HS. I do and it works great for me.

    I just installed the new firmware (1.00.24) and some of the differences are pretty amazing to me. I was wrong about the AF issues as I had predicted that there would be lens tweaking a la the D3X. No such thing. The lenses are calibrated to the body (as you said in one of your posts) and the issue was truly the size of the spot in the center sensor. I understand now that the spot size is very different at close range than at infinity and now both seem (to me) to be pretty much spot on. No pun intended!

    I had truly been suffering from the performance of the AF system and now I am thrilled! Seems to me the S2 is now what it was originally intended to be.

    It is also great to be able to use lossless compression (40mb files instead of 70mb).

    I also really like the new histogram and the ability to set both the black and white clipping levels in software.

    All in all, some fundamentally necessary improvements and a lot of neat feature adds.

    Now if I could only get my 120 Makro.

    Woody
    Woody, I think the shutter lock issue I experienced may be (not sure) because the camera reached it's buffer limit ... I was rapid shooting it like a 35mm DSLR when it happened. So, if that was the issue, then the lossless compressed addition in the new firmware should be the answer to those type shooting conditions.

    Thanks,

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Woody, I think the shutter lock issue I experienced may be (not sure) because the camera reached it's buffer limit ... I was rapid shooting it like a 35mm DSLR when it happened. So, if that was the issue, then the lossless compressed addition in the new firmware should be the answer to those type shooting conditions.

    Thanks,

    -Marc
    Marc,

    With uncompressed DNG, the S2 buffer limit is around 9 frames. With compressed DNG that jumps to around 16-19 shots (depending on content as the compressibility changes shot-to-shot). Card speed is crucial as well. Use 600x cards (90MB/s) and you will see a dramatic performance difference.

    The compression is totally lossless so there is no reason not to use it 100% of the time.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Marc,

    With compressed DNG that jumps to around 16-19 shots (depending on content as the compressibility changes shot-to-shot). Card speed is crucial as well. Use 600x cards (90MB/s) and you will see a dramatic performance difference.

    The compression is totally lossless so there is no reason not to use it 100% of the time.
    David
    That's my real world experience too. I get about 16 shots before the camera starts to slow down a bit. Haven't tested for the limit as this will cover me.

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Here's my final conclusion:

    The S2 kit is being returned immediately.

    Sad to say that 3 shots into my paying job this AM the S2P shutter button locked up ... for the third time. I was stunned. (3 frames is not a buffer issue as I speculated earlier).

    I walked 1/4 mile to the location in 20º weather, and my clients stood there freezing their behinds off while I fiddled for a few minutes after it locked up, then swapped out to my Sony A900 which worked flawlessly for the remaining couple of hours ... in and out of the cold.

    What I had not mentioned here before is that this is the second S2P body ... the first one had to be exchanged for a brand new one fresh from Germany ... which then failed.

    Not angry, just disappointed because I really like the handling and all that. Leica simply needs to up their game in quality control. This camera should never have reached my hands.

    Twice burned is all I give to any tool before losing trust in it ... even if a certified perfect one came my way, that nagging distrust is hard to shake. No thanks, I'm done.

    Gear testing and web-blab is one thing ... but screw with my actual shooting more than once and it's history.

    I just have to soldier on with my trusty H4D/40 ... which I swear has a smirk on its face .

    Trust is earned not bought.

    Thanks to all who helped, and best wishes to all the lucky folks with a S2 that works for them

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Oh boy, Marc... what a bummer. But as Jack said, better to find out now than later. I have no doubt this report will find it's way to Leica and, hopefully, they will find the source of the problem. Knock on wood I've had no such issues yet. At least you've got your trusty Hasselblad and Sony kits and it's not like you were actively unhappy with them.

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Oh Boy is right
    and I thought you were on home stretch!
    Sounds like it wasn't a super critical job and you had a back up which is what counts.
    Must say, very disappointing.
    Thank you for all your input and sharing with us.
    am

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    HI Marc
    I'm sorry it didn't work out - what a strange problem though.
    Whatever
    Enjoy the H4D.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    I hate sharing bad news ... it was really a bummer because the light was terrific and the S2 files would have sung ... just like the Sony files are singing.

    If this had been my Hasselblad I would've shared the bad news also. None of us needs this kind of experience from any of these pricey tools.

    Gotta run ... another shoot this PM ... sadly without the S2.

    Thanks all,

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Sorry to hear that Marc. I was hoping that it'd all work out for you. As David mentioned, go with what you can trust. If you can't trust your kit, you're up the creek.

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    I hate to hear this Marc. I am puzzled as I have never experienced the problem you have encountered (now on two bodies). It's really a shame for you, Leica and the S2 because I know you enjoyed using the camera. The reality is that trust in your equipment is everything and that experience is difficult if not impossible to regain trust.

    Wait a minute. I just remembered a problem I had a couple months ago where my S2 would not do anything I wanted sometimes and other times worked fine. It was really bizarre. Based on my experience with other precision electronics, I suspected an electrical problem. Fortunately, I was right. David Farkas sent me a new battery and all was good and has been since.

    Marc, have you used the same battery with both bodies by chance?

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    I hate to hear this Marc. I am puzzled as I have never experienced the problem you have encountered (now on two bodies). It's really a shame for you, Leica and the S2 because I know you enjoyed using the camera. The reality is that trust in your equipment is everything and that experience is difficult if not impossible to regain trust.

    Wait a minute. I just remembered a problem I had a couple months ago where my S2 would not do anything I wanted sometimes and other times worked fine. It was really bizarre. Based on my experience with other precision electronics, I suspected an electrical problem. Fortunately, I was right. David Farkas sent me a new battery and all was good and has been since.

    Marc, have you used the same battery with both bodies by chance?
    Don't think so, I have two batteries, but I didn't track which was which when the problem occurred.

    The first camera had a different issue. The shutter lock has only happened on the second S2.

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I hate sharing bad news ... it was really a bummer because the light was terrific and the S2 files would have sung ... just like the Sony files are singing.

    If this had been my Hasselblad I would've shared the bad news also. None of us needs this kind of experience from any of these pricey tools.

    Gotta run ... another shoot this PM ... sadly without the S2.

    Thanks all,

    -Marc
    I am really sorry to hear that Marc, especially I had very high expectations from the S system myself!

    It is a shame that these things happen at such a price tag. My reaction would be exactly the same, had to do things like that several times in my life and never was shy doing it, even if it was on my own cost.

    But I am really grateful you went through that exercise and shared with us here, as it makes my future decisions much easier - stay with Hasselblad and do occasionally an upgrade to the H4D60 instead of swapping systems from Hasselblad H system to an obviously not mature Leica S system.

    Plus the H4D can do things the S2 never will be capable of doing - eg. TF.

    Enjoy your H4D40 and share with us about your future steps to an H4D60.

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Marc and I have been sharing some PM's about what is going on and it comes down to a system maturity level to me and really a shame for him and Leica as well.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Here's my final conclusion:

    The S2 kit is being returned immediately.
    Sorry to hear that, Marc.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Trust is earned not bought.
    Absolutely, and you need to be able to trust your tools. IIRC the R8 and DMR went through similar teething problems. Mine have been as reliable as they come but it doesn't take much to destroy trust.

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Marc,

    Your generosity in sharing this saga is much appreciated, I too, had a similar experience with the H4D. This camera (S2), is continuing to evolve as any new model should, and perhaps in a year it will start to gain a more trusted following. Perhaps if one searches the earlier progression of Hasselblad they'll find similarities.

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Here's my final conclusion:

    The S2 kit is being returned immediately.

    -Marc
    Marc,
    Sorry to hear the S2 did not work out for you. I am not sure if in Japan, the QC was more comprehensive since the Japanese customers are extremely demanding. I will count myself among the lucky ones who have not had issues.

    Good luck with the Sony and H4D. Please let me know if you ever visit my neck of the woods.

    Arif
    http://blog.arifiqball.com
    www.arifiqball.com

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arif View Post
    Marc,
    Sorry to hear the S2 did not work out for you. I am not sure if in Japan, the QC was more comprehensive since the Japanese customers are extremely demanding. I will count myself among the lucky ones who have not had issues.

    Good luck with the Sony and H4D. Please let me know if you ever visit my neck of the woods.

    Arif
    http://blog.arifiqball.com
    www.arifiqball.com
    I would LOVE to visit your neck of the woods some day!

    As to the Leica S2, perhaps we'll see what another year brings. All my best to Leica in their quest.

    Now where the heck is my H4D/60 ...

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Here's my final conclusion:

    The S2 kit is being returned immediately.

    What I had not mentioned here before is that this is the second S2P body ... the first one had to be exchanged for a brand new one fresh from Germany ... which then failed.

    Not angry, just disappointed because I really like the handling and all that. Leica simply needs to up their game in quality control. This camera should never have reached my hands.

    Twice burned is all I give to any tool before losing trust in it ... even if a certified perfect one came my way, that nagging distrust is hard to shake. No thanks, I'm done.

    Trust is earned not bought.

    Thanks to all who helped, and best wishes to all the lucky folks with a S2 that works for them

    -Marc
    Oh ****......

    Very sorry to hear. I understand your reaction. Reliability and trust in equipment is key.

    However, I wonder whether you are not pouring out the kid with the bathtub. From what I have read so far, there have not been repeat complaints about the S2 being unreliable or about the shutter locks you experienced.

    Anyway, many thanks for sharing your experience with the S2 and your thoughts about the system and working with it . We all benefit from this. Good luck with your Hassy and Sony systems. May be a third try with the S3 in a couple of years

    Georg

    PS: Out of curiosity: would you mind sharing what was the problem with the first S2P you got?

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    It happens that there are serious issues with the S2. I had two of them... but i like it anyway.

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by GMB View Post
    Oh ****......

    Very sorry to hear. I understand your reaction. Reliability and trust in equipment is key.

    However, I wonder whether you are not pouring out the kid with the bathtub. From what I have read so far, there have not been repeat complaints about the S2 being unreliable or about the shutter locks you experienced.

    Anyway, many thanks for sharing your experience with the S2 and your thoughts about the system and working with it . We all benefit from this. Good luck with your Hassy and Sony systems. May be a third try with the S3 in a couple of years

    Georg

    PS: Out of curiosity: would you mind sharing what was the problem with the first S2P you got?
    Appreciate the thoughts Georg.

    I don't know the degree of complaints regarding the S2, some have sent it back (posted here), others have had more than one camera and are willing to put up with it (also posted here). How many is not terribly relevant to me ... if the one in my hand works ... then fine, if not ... then bye-bye.

    Issues can be "one of", or more wide spread with any camera I suppose. One camera with issues and any company deserves the benefit of the doubt. To Leica's credit they replaced the first one with a cracked sensor immediately ... and probably would replace this one (if there are any available in the US) ... or send a new battery to test if that is a patterned problem they've noted.

    However, I've spent over two intense weeks sorting through issues and concerns about basic stuff like the lock-up, AF, and flash operation with two different cameras. It's been like eating too much chocolate

    The question is why, at these incredibly high prices, does a photographer have to sort through issues after over a year in production? MFD is already a challenge to master when working perfectly. Throw in a bunch of questionable issues and/or real mis-steps and the task becomes far more difficult ... and somewhat unnerving.

    While I seemed to grasp the S2 AF issue published by others, and seemed to overcome it in more leisure test conditions, it is the real world, on the job, that is the acid test. Of the 3 shots I was able to take before lock-up yesterday, one was hopelessly back focused, and a second one was marginal. The 150 shots taken with the Sony and fast aperture lenses were ALL in focus.

    Not to beat a horse beyond dead ... but I've used a string of Hasselblads, one upgrade to another, on the job for years and years now, in raging Michigan winter storms, monsoon like down-pours, intense tropical heat ... for 8 hours straight ... and have been very lucky I guess ... my biggest issue has been the stupid eye cup falling off.

    So, it doesn't matter if the S optics were forged by the Gods, and the camera designed by the ghost of Ferdinand Porsche, real beauty is the images you actually capture, not what you are carrying. Yes, it is wonderful when beauty and brains come together perfectly, which, in my specific instance, is what was promised and not delivered.

    Just bad luck perhaps ... it does happen.

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    There is a branch of engineering that some call reliability engineering, which is a specialty practiced by too few small scale camera companies. It takes into account not only the design but the operational environment.

    Reliability engineering coupled with quality control discipline pushed back into the supply chain and appropriate audit have produced some impressive results in medical, aerospace, and many other industries.
    My belief is that most of the issues other than firmware that I have personally experienced as well as have heard about with brand "L" are due to a lack of or in these two disciplines.

    The goal of any company ought to be to sell a product, take the customer's money, and never hear from them again.

    I cannot tell exactly what is the issue at Leica, but that might be a good operational goal or New Year's resolution for any company wishing to do a good and steady business with the professional photo market.

    Not to put a fine point on it, but I slap myself every time I get a Leica acquisition urge and probably will continue to do so until I see evidence of competitive comparability in these regards.

    Now if their stuff weren't so danged pretty I would save a whole lot of slapping...

    -bob
    Last edited by Bob; 30th December 2010 at 07:47.

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by xpixel View Post
    It happens that there are serious issues with the S2. I had two of them... but i like it anyway.
    Would you please be more specific with regard to the issues you had with the S2. I'm a firm believer in showing the good, the bad and the ugly with all gear in the spirit of helping others know what to look for and consider. I've seen some of the images you've posted with this kit and can understand why you like it anyway. Thanks...

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Marc, do you recall the AF settings you were using with the S2, i.e. AFs or AFc and which button you used to achieve focus, shutter release or rear thumb button. I'm a thumb button focus guy and have the camera set accordingly. If I use the rear button to focus on a close object and then point the camera at a distant one it will still take the OOF image. Not so if I am using a half press of the shutter button to achieve focus. In that case pressing the shutter will not capture an image of an OOF subject. This is referenced in the manual but it's not all that clear. I'm inclined to doubt this was the cause of the problem for an experienced shooter such as yourself but thought it worth bringing to the attention of other S2 users in case they were unaware of it.

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Would you please be more specific with regard to the issues you had with the S2. I'm a firm believer in showing the good, the bad and the ugly with all gear in the spirit of helping others know what to look for and consider. I've seen some of the images you've posted with this kit and can understand why you like it anyway. Thanks...
    Absolutely totally agree here. Several other members on this forum deserve to know what issues so they can look for them as potential problems for them. We have REAL money on the line here and not some 5k investment. Granted you may like it anyway and so do many others including myself on a certain level but if someone is holding a 35k check in there hand ready to give it to a dealer would you not also like to know before handing that over. I can speak for the planet here you bet. It is one reason forums like this exist is to learn the good the bad and the ugly. I know David is in fact sitting there probably worried now as he already handed the check over. Main reason i even bother to do reviews of these cams is to figure this stuff out for the public at large.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    The question is why, at these incredibly high prices, does a photographer have to sort through issues after over a year in production? MFD is already a challenge to master when working perfectly. Throw in a bunch of questionable issues and/or real mis-steps and the task becomes far more difficult ... and somewhat unnerving.

    -Marc
    Marc--I could not agree more. I spent too much time trying to figure out focus issues with the M8 and the M9 and various lenses. Always the nagging question is it me or the camera.

    My biggest concern with the S2 would be to find the right dealer. There are two in Belgium but they both have their issues and both have to go via the Belgian importer rather than sorting things our straight with Leica. Then there is a good one in Cologne and Düsseldorf who both seem to have good relations with Leica--but they both are 200km away from where I live.

    Decisions, decisions, decisions--and yesterday I thought I was there

    Georg

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Would you please be more specific with regard to the issues you had with the S2.
    OK. The first issue was the main switch was not working anymore, that means not able to on/off the camera. The second issue siginificant lines in the pictures. That means in time twice in Solms. About 1 month overall. But i must say i have a brilliant dealer who was able to bridge the time with another S2.

  30. #130
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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Are these things fixed now.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    ...If I use the rear button to focus on a close object and then point the camera at a distant one it will still take the OOF image. Not so if I am using a half press of the shutter button to achieve focus. In that case pressing the shutter will not capture an image of an OOF subject....

    I too use the rear button for focus. Normally, people just press the button for focus and then release. Then take the picture. That's why the camera will take a OOF picture (if the subject moves or you didn't really achieve focus). If you want the same behavior as having the focus on the shutter, hold the rear button focus down while pressing the shutter: if OOF, it will not take the picture.

    For me, sometimes the moment is more important than having a razor sharp image so I don't care if it captures the slightly OOF image. I need to capture the moment.

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by xpixel View Post
    OK. The first issue was the main switch was not working anymore, that means not able to on/off the camera. The second issue siginificant lines in the pictures. That means in time twice in Solms. About 1 month overall. But i must say i have a brilliant dealer who was able to bridge the time with another S2.
    Thanks for the response. Certainly shouldn't have happened but it sounds like specific camera issues and not something that I need to look out for.

  33. #133
    Senior Member ceh's Avatar
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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    I now..
    I am an amateur photographer.
    I've never had a problem with S2.
    Many are in their "own hands".
    Manipulation, menus, output is better than M645 AFDIII and L.Aptus 65s ,Has H3D22
    ...I have owned these cameras ...

    Battery life is unparalleled.
    AF after the last firmware is flawless.
    Ease of use is incredible.This can not write the previous cameras.
    White balance was always a problem with previous cameras.Especially Leaf Aptus.
    Now use automatic WB.
    Rear LCD is 100 years ahead of others in class MF.
    Reaction time after power is also.
    Precise work, compact size.
    ...These few words are for those who are reluctant.

  34. #134
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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Consider:

    First camera arrived broken. Second camera wouldn't shoot photos.

    Two strikes and Leica is out. Three strikes and I'm out ... of business.

    If it worked, I'd own it, warts and all.

    Addressing counter points one-by-one is fruitless. Suffice it to say after tens of thousands of images, Hasselblad has delivered ... under pressure, fast enough, in focus, with image quality ... from day one. I trust it.

    Those lucky enough to have a good S2 ... enjoy and be well

    All the best,

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Are these things fixed now.
    Yes all is fixed.

  36. #136
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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Great news . Just when I hear sensor issues than my ears perk up. No real workaround for that. None of these systems are perfect and i had a complete failure of a old AFDIII body and that was a OMG. On/Off switches not working there are workarounds in the s2 case just remove the battery. I had a battery latch issue on my P40+ but a easy work around and that is now fixed but I could have went for months like that. Those things will let you keep working but major failures and anything with the sensor than it usually is a trace back to initial build. That is the stuff that will ruin your day on a hurry. For me the S2 is something worth looking at as the system matures more and gets some age on it. It's a brand new product and some of these OEM's have gone through the growing pains which some things are understandable but sensors are not IMHO.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Great news . Just when I hear sensor issues than my ears perk up. No real workaround for that. None of these systems are perfect and i had a complete failure of a old AFDIII body and that was a OMG. On/Off switches not working there are workarounds in the s2 case just remove the battery. I had a battery latch issue on my P40+ but a easy work around and that is now fixed but I could have went for months like that. Those things will let you keep working but major failures and anything with the sensor than it usually is a trace back to initial build. That is the stuff that will ruin your day on a hurry. For me the S2 is something worth looking at as the system matures more and gets some age on it. It's a brand new product and some of these OEM's have gone through the growing pains which some things are understandable but sensors are not IMHO.
    Guy,
    A Jersey boy like you ought to be able to jump start any camera I figure. Just don't let the townies catch you doing it.
    -bob

  38. #138
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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    LOL . 10 seconds for VW in and running with first gear employed. LOL
    20 seconds for a ford 150 pick me up
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  39. #139
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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Marc,

    Was this S2 a demo or a fresh new model? Perhaps, if it's a demo it might explain a few things. Also, i'm not sure of Leica's shipping methods, but I was surprised when Hasselblad sent me my H4D ( 1st and 2nd models ), with very little padding or protection. In addition, there was no high value declared by Hasselblad on these shipments, which means they get tossed around in the back of the truck! I was told by UPS, that if you ship a high value item they make sure it's shipped with care (last on, last off). Any known issues with other Leica products? I'm considering a M9.

  40. #140
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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Actually, I meant to say last on, first off.

  41. #141
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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Consider:

    First camera arrived broken. Second camera wouldn't shoot photos.

    Two strikes and Leica is out. Three strikes and I'm out ... of business.

    If it worked, I'd own it, warts and all.

    Addressing counter points one-by-one is fruitless. Suffice it to say after tens of thousands of images, Hasselblad has delivered ... under pressure, fast enough, in focus, with image quality ... from day one. I trust it.

    Those lucky enough to have a good S2 ... enjoy and be well

    All the best,

    -Marc
    I fully subscribe this!

    Peter

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Ouch. Friggin OUCH! Sorry to hear that Marc, I know how much you wanted it to work...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  43. #143
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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Marc,

    I'm very sorry you experienced problems with your S2 adventure.

    The cracked sensor glass was a known issue about 6 months ago and affected M9s as well (actually much more so). The cause was a defective batch of sensor cover glass pieces being produced by Kodak. They would be fine upon installation and testing in Solms, then crack later following shipment or even a few weeks after normal use. Once Leica discovered the problem, they ceased production of both S2 and M9 while they worked through the issue with Kodak. When Kodak fixed the problem and started producing a new batch of sensors, production of cameras commenced. Any new camera shipped within the last several months should not have this problem. Perhaps the camera you first received was an off-demo or was sitting in inventory for a while.

    As far as the lock-up problem, we haven't seen this with cameras we've delivered to customers. As Mark Gowin mentioned previously in this thread, he experienced something similar (but different in behavior). We quickly narrowed it down to a bad battery cell and, once replaced, all has been fine.

    When we were giving a group demo at a college a few months ago, some photo students using their own cards experienced problems. These were the result of using very old and/or very cheap CF cards, all of which were non-UDMA. We put in our UDMA6 Transcend cards and all was good again. On the last shoot we did with Ocean Drive, the camera did become unresponsive after shooting a continuous burst of about 100 shots (over the course of 2 minutes or so). The CF access light was lit, but the shutter was frozen. I pulled the battery and reinserted it. Boot-up time on the S2 is 1/3 of a second. After that the camera was fine for the rest of the day (1200 images were taken). We'll call it a sub-1 second fix. I reported the incident to Germany but it is very tough to repeat those exact conditions.

    So, like Mark, I'd be curious about the battery and for myself, what memory card you were using (and if you tried various CF cards).

    Often, it is small things that are easy to fix that appear to be larger, more catastrophic issues. Certainly, when you are in the moment, you want to have confidence in your chosen camera system and any problem, no matter how easy to fix, seems like a major one.

    I'm happy to help troubleshoot further if you want. Sorry again the S2 didn't work out for you.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    What??????

    I was really enjoying this thread and hoping to see some great S2 images today ..... and I see these "updates"?

    To say this is extremely disappointing is an understatement. I rarely use DSLR any more, but I was almost getting convinced to get one of these S2 kits myself.

    You know, there is an old joke on statistics about how to avoid getting onto a plane with an unknown bomb on it by bringing your own bomb, since the mathematical likelihood of two bombs being on the same plane is astronomical. So, maybe by already experiencing two defective Leica S2 cameras, you will never again experience a defective one. What are the odds, right?

    Maybe you just need a cooling off period, and will still revisit the S2 at a later time.

  45. #145
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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    What??????

    I was really enjoying this thread and hoping to see some great S2 images today ..... and I see these "updates"?

    To say this is extremely disappointing is an understatement. I rarely use DSLR any more, but I was almost getting convinced to get one of these S2 kits myself.

    You know, there is an old joke on statistics about how to avoid getting onto a plane with an unknown bomb on it by bringing your own bomb, since the mathematical likelihood of two bombs being on the same plane is astronomical. So, maybe by already experiencing two defective Leica S2 cameras, you will never again experience a defective one. What are the odds, right?

    Maybe you just need a cooling off period, and will still revisit the S2 at a later time.
    Already tried the "two bomb" trick David

    I did manage to get off one in-focus S2 shot with the 70mm ... but it was literally the first shot of the day before I could work the subjects into a more relaxed state.

    Here it is with a Sony shot at the same location after swapping out cameras. While the Sony is no slouch, the S2 file shows oodles of potential. Not to mention the native size is 14" X 21" @ 360 ppi where the sony is 11" x 16" @ 360 ppi. Both pretty much as they came out of the camera, I haven't done any minor retouching yet until the client picks the images they want.

    -Marc

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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    I am glad to see you cloned out the no bicycles sign in the second photo. It was distracting in the first photo.

  47. #147
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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Hi Mark & All,

    I hadn't revisited this thread for a few days but just caught up and was sad and dismayed to hear the news of the early failure of the S2. Although its been out for a year, the teething pains reminds me of the M8, where those early adopters, especially those planning to use it on paying or work related jobs, got a bit of a rude awakening. Not just for the magenta-UVIR filter issue, but for badly focus-calibrated bodies right out of the box and the lack of realization by Leica that many lenses out there calibrated in the film days would also need to be sent back for adjustment. Combine this with early electronic/shutter issues and it took a while to sort things out. Even by the time the M8.2 was released, not everything percentage wise was where it should have been...although it was getting close. Only around the time of the M9, was the system sort of reaching a steady state where except for the cracked sensor issue, the percentage of other problematic issues seen with the M9 (especially one-off individual bodies with their own particular issues), was sort of around, percentage wide, what one would generally see in other systems too.

    The S2 issues as experienced by some users although different than that found with the M8/M8.2, appears to need the same sort of shake out time before the system is reliable/dependable enough to have complete confidence in its use, especially for a paying job. To sit there with a client and not have the camera fire or act up in some unreliable way, is unfortunately unacceptable.

    I too have seriously contemplated the S2 and know in time, its going to be what we all hope and expect...no different than when the M9 finally reached its present stage of maturity.

    Like others have expressed, my heartfelt thanks and appreciation to Marc and all others who have taken time out discuss their experiences, both good and bad (along with their images) in helping to define what the system has to offer, and its present state of capabilities in a wide variety of shooting enviorments.

    Dave (D&A)

  48. #148
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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    I am glad to see you cloned out the no bicycles sign in the second photo. It was distracting in the first photo.
    Yeah Mark, I had done that for the client's Proof DVD for just that shot to show the clients it could be seamlessly removed ... the S2 shot wasn't on the DVD because of his squinty expression, not because the S2 file wasn't nice ... it was very nice.

    I cannot express how disappointed I was. When I got to the location at the University of Michigan Law Quad, (where the clients went to school), and saw the muted quality of light and all the architectural background possibilities I was very excited.

    I thought I'd be posting some beautiful S2 images here as part of my final conclusion instead of a tale of woe. The 35 and 180 never had a chance to come out of the bag I think they're just as pissed at the camera as I am ...

    This was an important shoot for me ... not the nature of shoot which was a routine engagement session for a wedding client ... but because the nice couple are from very well connected families in wealthy Grosse Pointe and Franklin Village MI. Clients like this place a high value on photography, are demanding but easy to work with, and are willing to pay for a premium product without blinking an eye. It was a "gateway" shoot because my business lives and dies on word-of-mouth.

    Some folks may wonder why MFD for this type work? Especially a camera in the Rolls Royce strata.

    I've taken to using the highest quality tools I can get to do this work ... Leica M9 for candid available light, the Sony A900 for some action stuff ... plus more and more MFD portraits & environmental portraits, as well as church interiors and large sweeping shots of locations etc. ... because I sell big albums and large wall prints. The smallest album I do requires 13"X19" @ 360 dpi images for full bleed spreads. With cropping, perspective corrections, etc. MFD provides max data to work with and few compromises in IQ.

    Yesterday, I got a call from the father of the Bride who received an Album from his daughter for Christmas ... he went on and on about the photography, citing specific images and how rich and detailed they were, how beautiful the church spread was, etc. etc. ... and how he has taken it to his work and passed out my cards to interested parties. He is a big shot Lawyer from Grosse Pointe Farms. This level of client is very cliquish and endorsements with-in their circle of influence plays a huge role in getting more high-end work.

    The S2 would have fit right in this working scenario, while simplifying the gear bag.

    -Marc

    Sorry for the longish response to a simple statement ... but clarity of purpose plays a big role in decisions like this.

  49. #149
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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Marc,
    besides your functional problems, would you mind to comment how you found the files of the S2 to compare to those of the A900?
    Thanks a lot, Tom

  50. #150
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    Re: S2 Impressions: A year later.

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Hi Mark & All,

    I hadn't revisited this thread for a few days but just caught up and was sad and dismayed to hear the news of the early failure of the S2. Although its been out for a year, the teething pains reminds me of the M8, where those early adopters, especially those planning to use it on paying or work related jobs, got a bit of a rude awakening. Not just for the magenta-UVIR filter issue, but for badly focus-calibrated bodies right out of the box and the lack of realization by Leica that many lenses out there calibrated in the film days would also need to be sent back for adjustment. Combine this with early electronic/shutter issues and it took a while to sort things out. Even by the time the M8.2 was released, not everything percentage wise was where it should have been...although it was getting close. Only around the time of the M9, was the system sort of reaching a steady state where except for the cracked sensor issue, the percentage of other problematic issues seen with the M9 (especially one-off individual bodies with their own particular issues), was sort of around, percentage wide, what one would generally see in other systems too.

    The S2 issues as experienced by some users although different than that found with the M8/M8.2, appears to need the same sort of shake out time before the system is reliable/dependable enough to have complete confidence in its use, especially for a paying job. To sit there with a client and not have the camera fire or act up in some unreliable way, is unfortunately unacceptable.

    I too have seriously contemplated the S2 and know in time, its going to be what we all hope and expect...no different than when the M9 finally reached its present stage of maturity.

    Like others have expressed, my heartfelt thanks and appreciation to Marc and all others who have taken time out discuss their experiences, both good and bad (along with their images) in helping to define what the system has to offer, and its present state of capabilities in a wide variety of shooting enviorments.

    Dave (D&A)
    Well stated Dave.

    I was one of those M8 sufferers. Half my lenses wouldn't focus correctly, even after the camera was sent back to be properly calibrated. The system was down for over 6+ months. I use a M digital for my paying work, and this was a nightmare time for me.

    The M9s have been much better. Although not perfect ... one of them has to go back because the LCD fades to black during review when you tilt the camera to see a portrait oriented image. Faulty tilt sensor, power issue, or lose connection perhaps? I live in dread regarding the cracked sensor issue with my first earlier M9 which is okay so far. It's always something with Leica.

    I'm sure Leica will sort this all out over time as the S2 system matures. Unfortunately, I'm also as sure that it'll be beyond my means by then

    -Marc

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