S2 Impressions: A year later.

[tjv]

Man, you guys are killing me! I'm sitting here on Christmas day sipping a beer whishing I was able to play with such amazing gear as well. I was at work the other day and someone came in with an H4D-50. I asked them what they shoot with it. I'll just say that this person described a "take an M16 machine gun to a fist fight" scenario. For a while I begrudged them for owning it but then I relaxed - if it makes them happy or they enjoy using it, good on them! One day I hope to have one of these systems to work with too. I know from a few days with the S2 that it's IQ is exactly what I'm looking for. I felt the bottom of the grip was a bit big for my hands, but that was my only only real complaint. Beautiful camera and beautiful files. I'm sure the H4D series is great too. I hope this coming year I might be able to make the step the the H4D-31 or similar priced system. I hope you come to some clear decisions soon and put the chosen beast to work. Good luck and merry Christmas!

 

[fotografz]

Man, you guys are killing me! I'm sitting here on Christmas day sipping a beer whishing I was able to play with such amazing gear as well. I was at work the other day and someone came in with an H4D-50. I asked them what they shoot with it. I'll just say that this person described a "take an M16 machine gun to a fist fight" scenario. For a while I begrudged them for owning it but then I relaxed - if it makes them happy or they enjoy using it, good on them! One day I hope to have one of these systems to work with too. I know from a few days with the S2 that it's IQ is exactly what I'm looking for. I felt the bottom of the grip was a bit big for my hands, but that was my only only real complaint. Beautiful camera and beautiful files. I'm sure the H4D series is great too. I hope this coming year I might be able to make the step the the H4D-31 or similar priced system. I hope you come to some clear decisions soon and put the chosen beast to work. Good luck and merry Christmas!

Decisions, decisions.

Not only is it a slippery slope, this slippery slope is up a mile high. I just want to be sure the end of the slope isn't a cliff :ROTFL:

-Marc

 

[Paratom]

Fascinating, Marc began his second round with the S2 by saying how much better he felt AF was this go-around. Toward the end of the thread, there is an overall sense of AF angst amongst most posters. Not defending or accusing, I just find the 'focus shift' interesting.

Kurt,
I thought exactly the same thing. I think the problem is that there are so many factors going into AF and even more into IQ (including AF) that it is just so difficult to make a clear judgement.
I have tried to compare different systems and first you think there is some difference and afterwards you realize there were just so minor differences in focus which lead to a wrong conclusion.
The fact that DOF is soo shallow with such systems I sometimes believe the more "gentle" transition from sharp to unsharp areas and the more forgiving "thickness of emulsion of film" were/are one major advantage of film over digital.
I get really sick of focus and lens testing. Even more complicated if you have a new system and dont know how much comes from the camera and how much from the lens (and how much from you). It seems to be necesary to do it though when getting new gear. Its not easy to make conclusions from 1 or 2 tests - so only after using gear for some time one really knows if it works. But thats pretty difficult with a 30k system.

Simplicity of a camera and user interface includes to be able to totally rely on a camera system IMO.

 

[fotografz]

Marc, First, thank you for sharing your opinions on the S2.

Like most people considering the S2, I have been following this camera for awhile as well. As of today, I still find the overall system unreliable in terms of consistent image quality, and Leica still has some engineering to do to get it right. There is much to like about this camera, especially its ergonomics and fast lenses, but in the end I have not seen an image that cannot be done equally as well (or better) with other cameras, and typically at less cost.

So, as for dodging an expensive bullet, you are still not out of the woods with the S2. You should contact Lloyd Chambers to compare notes. He has tested several S2 kits and lenses, and has found consistent problems with things like backfocusing and purple fringing, and which Leica has actually confirmed these problems with him in person. You can read about some of these recent findings on his blog here: http://diglloyd.com/diglloyd/2010-12-blog.html#blog20101221LeicaS2Focusing .

Good luck with your retirement.

David

Update David.

I have read Lloyd Chamber's blog comments and then subscribed to DAP ... which I admit I had not included in my research. My bad.

It is interesting that he feels these are the best lenses made by anyone ever, but he is quite clear that the AF accuracy is faulty with the camera ... AND that includes use of the latest firmware which does not fix the issue. As Lloyd states, his multiple camera testing with all 4 available lenses directly challenges Mark Dubovoy's assertion on LL that the S2 features "perfect AF". :wtf:

It's enough to drive you nuts. :banghead:

However, Lloyd's assertion that the optics are good up to 80 meg sensors also somewhat confirms my notion that it is the lenses that one is investing in the long term.

I will concentrate my testing of this specific new body at medium + distances since admittedly I was shooting most of my test shots at closer distances. This is important for all the focal lengths the way I tend to do environmental portraits and large sweeping wide angle shots of event interiors, but specifically important with the 180mm since that is obviously a primary purpose ... bringing far subject's closer.

If confirmed, it is simply a deal breaker and the whole thing goes back. Obviously, Leica has had this info long enough to address it with firmware (if firmware can address it) ... and the latest firmware evidently doesn't address it.

I've had quite enough of this type engineering sloppiness from other systems in past ... but it really slams home hard at these prices. While I'm sure the S optics are better than my Hassey ones, whether a little or a lot, it's a moot point if one cannot somewhat trust the AF of an AF camera ... which by experience I do with the Hasselblad Micro Adjust AF ... and now True Focus.


Thanks,

-Marc

 

[Paratom]

I know at least of one photographer who has replaced his DSLR with an S2 and seems very happy with it.
I only emailed with him so far and need to talk to him more detailed.
I know he had some issues in the beginning and spent one day at Leica-in the end he seems to have the system under control.
He shoots reportage style photography and I saw some absolutly fascinating images he shot with th S2 in Afganisthan some weeks ago.
I am looking forward to his detailed experience but there seem to be some people who get the S2 system working.

No doubts about all the experience from reviewers as Loyd but still so many factors for possible failure including sample variation.
I am looking forward to hear more from your experience with the S2.

 

[fotografz]

Kurt,
I thought exactly the same thing. I think the problem is that there are so many factors going into AF and even more into IQ (including AF) that it is just so difficult to make a clear judgement.
I have tried to compare different systems and first you think there is some difference and afterwards you realize there were just so minor differences in focus which lead to a wrong conclusion.
The fact that DOF is soo shallow with such systems I sometimes believe the more "gentle" transition from sharp to unsharp areas and the more forgiving "thickness of emulsion of film" were/are one major advantage of film over digital.
I get really sick of focus and lens testing. Even more complicated if you have a new system and dont know how much comes from the camera and how much from the lens (and how much from you). It seems to be necesary to do it though when getting new gear. Its not easy to make conclusions from 1 or 2 tests - so only after using gear for some time one really knows if it works. But thats pretty difficult with a 30k system.

Simplicity of a camera and user interface includes to be able to totally rely on a camera system IMO.

Exactly!

I'm sick to death of it actually :angry:

I can't believe how difficult it is to make a decision anymore. And the decisions are relatively BIG ones with almost any system you buy today ($$$$$$$).

Look at the focus issues being uncovered with the relatively expensive new Nikon G lenses (24, 35 and 85/1.4s). :wtf: I went through four different new and used Leica M75/2 ASPH lenses and not one of them focused properly ... and finally gave up (trust me, it wasn't the cameras as the 0.95 Nocti focused perfectly, as did the 28/2 and my old 90/2.8). Finally found a late model 6 bit 75/1.4 that did work on both my M9s. Even a Rodenstock digital lens I bought new was so off that even shimming it wouldn't work, and they finally replaced it (with a lot of grousing, and foot dragging about the exchange :thumbdown.

This testing crap takes hours and hours to determine, is a PITA, and involves shipping expensive gear back-and-forth often at your expense ... a disaster waiting to happen.

All compounded by conflicting tests and comments on the web, or people defending a purchase decision (which is understandable at these stratospheric prices.)

It's gotten to the point that if a brand new piece of gear actually works, you throw confetti in the air and bring out the champagne. :clap:

-Marc

 

[David K]

Marc, the testing stuff can drive you nuts...which is not a very long drive in my case And in any event the testing, at best, only deals with objective factors. While I value and respect Lloyd and Guy's tests at the end of the day it's a subjective choice. The things that went into making my decision aren't the same for others. I gave up my DMR and Contax kits which weren't getting much use anyway. If I had to give up the M9 it would have been a more difficult choice. The Leica S system is expensive... some would say overpriced. The financial pain was mitigated for me by buying a used kit and getting very good trade values. If I were buying at full boat retail for cash I'm not sure I could have justified the expenditure. Also, I wanted to wait and see if the S2 would gain traction in the marketplace. After the Leica R was discontinued and the Hy6 was stillborn the last thing I wanted was another orphaned camera system. Based on anecdotal information I'm satisfied that there is a strong enough demand for the S2 that it will remain viable. I also believe that the limited availability of lenses and the increase in price coming next month will mitigate losses on my investment. In short, there was a lot of totally non-scientific, non-photographic factors that played a major part in my decision making.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Exactly David there are many considerations in buying into these systems as we all know. Why my always first rule is try them first. Than you have to look at all the backend stuff and post production not just going and buying a lens. Threads like this are really good as folks can see what kind of decisions are rolling around that they need to consider. The S2 is no exception that it will produce great images just like a Hassy, Sinar, Leaf and Phase counterparts. End of day that is the part you really don't have to worry about too much, you will get good images. It's the everything else like functions, ergos, service, availability of parts and accessories that will drive you nuts trying to hammer everything that ones needs are and what is important. Honestly I love seeing you folks struggle to make these decisions and only because your doing the needed homework to make a smart buy decision for what you are truly after. None of these systems are remotely perfect and it will always come down to some compromise in the system that your just going to have to deal with. It's just like life, it ain't perfect by any stretch. Pardon the slang there and BTW Merry Christmas. It's almost time for me to go wake the kids and make them a awesome breakfast.

 

[David K]

Merry Xmas to you too Guy and the other forum members around the world. Hope Santa was good to you all this year !!

 

[KurtKamka]

There are several reasons that it took me a long while to decide which system to go with in jumping back into medium format. (I'm very happy to be once again enjoying the bigger sensor look.) First, the cost of entry is high ... making mistakes can be costly (added on top of the cost of selling other gear, etc.) Second, while nothing is perfect, the image quality provided by each of the systems at this level is fantastic. Third, there are several trade-offs with each system that you need to match up with how and what you shoot.

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

Kurt,

I agree, each MFD system is unique, but IQ is close. I'm leaning towards the S2 for reasons that suit my style, but also want to wait to see if Leica will release new models or firmware updates to address the concerns. Mostly, for me it was the AF issues in low light and lack of more sequential ISO settings. Plus, the top OLED is so useless in the day. I did observe purple fringing after reading some threads, it was noticeable with a hard edge against bright backdrop.
It's my understanding that the price is going up, which I think is absurd. That might just be the deal breaker for me. I don't to pay more for a camera that has the same issues.

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

I want to add, I was shooting the 35mm f/2.5, when the purple fringing occured.

 

[jlehrer]

I think it is important to note that the price of the S2 and S2P bodies will NOT be increasing in the New Year, only the lenses are increasing in price. I have brought the lack of fine-tuned ISO control to the attention of the Leica product managers and it is an issue they will address with an eventual firmware update. As for the top OLED screen, all new bodies no longer have this issue, and any older bodies (like our demo S2 cameras) can be sent in for a warranty repair to have the OLED screens replaced. I tested the "new" screen against the "old" screen, and the difference is huge. The new screen can easily been seen in direct sunlight.

Leica has been very receptive to the feedback of users, and several major firmware updates since the camera was released have demonstrated this. I'm certainly excited to see more changes as future firmware updates come out, especially since the updates tend not only to fix bugs, but introduce all-new features as well.

Josh Lehrer
Dale Photo & Digital

 

[ptomsu]

It would be really great to see that the S system is improving and the flaws of the start phase are solved. For me one of the most serious flaws is Purple Fringing and this is simply a SW (FW) issue to be solved (maybe not simply solved, but that's the way to go) - at least Phase and Hasselblad seem to have solved this issue in SW.

I am not talking about price of the S system, although it might be helpful to keep current prices or even lower them. But finally it is a very expensive system as all the other MFD systems, so everybody has to be aware of this when jumping into MFD.

I will test drive the S2 another time to see how it suits my needs with the latest FW and then decide. Mentally I am very close already, as I want to get rid of the bulkiness of other MFD systems and I am more than satisfied with the current resolution of the S2. But the handling of the S2 would only bring me positives, so finally this system seems to be the way to go.

Question WRT AF: does the S2 allow AF fine adjustment, as other DSLRs do (Nikon, Pentax etc) ????

 

[xpixel]

I
Question WRT AF: does the S2 allow AF fine adjustment, as other DSLRs do (Nikon, Pentax etc) ????

You mean manual adjustement after the S2 has made his AF decision... - yes...

 

[Mark Gowin]

One of the reasons I chose the S2 is shown below. This photo was taken earlier today and it was a fun time.

It's nice to not have to worry about your camera gear in adverse weather conditions. The S2 performed flawlessly. To bad the operator did do as good.

 

[elitegroup]

Ach mein lieber Gott was ist los mit dir :bugeyes:

I know the S2 is weather proof but still seeing snow and water condensation on her makes me want to grab my umbrella schnell and some one get me a vodka shot pronto before I pass out

One of the reasons I chose the S2 is shown below. This photo was taken earlier today and it was a fun time.

It's nice to not have to worry about your camera gear in adverse weather conditions. The S2 performed flawlessly. To bad the operator did do as good.

 

[fotografz]

I think it is important to note that the price of the S2 and S2P bodies will NOT be increasing in the New Year, only the lenses are increasing in price. I have brought the lack of fine-tuned ISO control to the attention of the Leica product managers and it is an issue they will address with an eventual firmware update. As for the top OLED screen, all new bodies no longer have this issue, and any older bodies (like our demo S2 cameras) can be sent in for a warranty repair to have the OLED screens replaced. I tested the "new" screen against the "old" screen, and the difference is huge. The new screen can easily been seen in direct sunlight.

Leica has been very receptive to the feedback of users, and several major firmware updates since the camera was released have demonstrated this. I'm certainly excited to see more changes as future firmware updates come out, especially since the updates tend not only to fix bugs, but introduce all-new features as well.

Josh Lehrer
Dale Photo & Digital

:thumbs:

 

[fotografz]

Quick Update:

I mentioned this on my other "Art" thread but it bears repeating:

I shot today in the bitter cold outside and in low light indoors.

Despite some reports of consistent back-focus on all lenses (body related), my shots were almost all fine even when pixel peeping. However, I did note that I tend to fill the AF circle with the subject.

The top LLC was perfectly readable in bright outdoor lighting.

I did not detect Purple fringing using the 35 and 70 even inside a dark church with bright windows and very contrasty interior sections, but I'm sure it is quite possible since others say it is.

The AF was about the same speed as my H4D/40 when shooting in lower light. I am used to this and select the target accordingly.

Properly exposed (and not cheated), ISO 1250 looked pretty good.

Two issue to resolve yet:

The shutter button stuck twice when shooting outdoors in the cold ... it stopped me in my tracks. Don't know why it stuck.

I tried the SF58 in case I need fill flash, and the TTL setting wouldn't work. TTL/HSS, A, and Manual did work. Yes, I made sure the shutter speed was with-in sync, and the TTL of the flash works mounted on my M9. Probable my error, but I haven't figured it out yet.

-Marc

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

Josh,

Thanks for the updates, that's a good start with Leica. I was giddy as a school girl when I saw Mark Gowin's photograph, but then almost fell off my chair reading Marc's shutter issues.