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S2 Impressions: A year later.

It is fun to share your experience learning the S2. Thank you for posting. The S2 files take sharpening surprisingly well considering the contrasty nature of the lenses. A tip I picked up from another S2 user was to keep the Amount in the mid-to-low range (<50), bump the Radius to 0.9 or 1.0 and then don't be afraid to push the Detail into the high numbers (I usually don't more than 50 - 60, most files can go much higher).
 

David Klepacki

New member
Marc,

There seems to be three major areas where the S2 seems to have problems, and you should concentrate your testing on these.

1. Autofocusing, especially at distance. The S2 is prone to backfocusing. This could mean that either their focusing sensor is out of spec/alignment, or it could mean that their focusing sensor is too large and just covers too much area. Backfocused images indicate that their focusing algorithm selects the farthest object detected within the depth of the focusing window. As long as your focused object is completely within the focusing window (e.g., like a 2D Xrite test chart), you will not see any backfocusing. However, if there is any object depth within the focus window, backfocusing will show up. While this is great for portrait shooting (since eyes will snap into focus instead of noses), it does not work in general for nature photography.

2. Purple fringing. The Kodak sensor in the S2 is prone to blooming when its photosites are hit with "too much" light. This occurs mostly when shooting wide open in the presence of strong light sources and high contrast edges (e.g., metallic). I shoot with the P65+ wide open with fast lenses like the Hassy V 110/2 as well as the Schneider LS 55/2.8 and LS 110/2.8 lenses and do not see such purple fringing in my images.

3. Noise. The noise in the S2 images above ISO 160 or 320 are disappointing. If you take an image with a 60+ megapixel back at the same high ISO as the S2, and then reduce its file size to that of the S2, you will get a cleaner higher IQ image than that of the S2 at its full resolution.

Also, I know that you are not a Phase One shooter, but for those other folks who may be following this thread, here is an interesting comparison that I made between the Phase One 645DF camera and the Leica S2 in terms of size and weight:

Phase 645DF, P65+, batteries, Schneider LS 110/2.8 lens without hood
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Weight = 2.5 kg
Total Volume = 153mm x 128mm x 238mm

Leica S2, batteries, CS 120/2.5 lens without hood
-------------------------------------------------------
Total Weight = 2.8 kg
Total Volume = 160mm x 120mm x 231mm

Similar size and weight occurs when comparing with other lenses as well. I am just trying to be fair as possible in terms of comparing lenses with leaf shutters that are closest in speed and focal length.

I am not touting the Phase One 645DF camera here. My point is that the perceived "compactness" and handling of the S2 are really no different than alternative 645 cameras.

David
 

David K

Workshop Member
Before I picked my kit up from David at Dale Labs I told him I specifically wanted to test for backfocusing issues. I read the Digilloyd review too :) We found no AF backfocus with any of the three lenses. What we did find is that you could "force" AF backfocus by picking an object small enough so that it does not fill the inner circle. In this situation the AF seems to pick up the highest contrast object in the circle which may not be the precise point you wanted. Whether this is a limitation of the Leica system only I don't know as I haven't tested for the same thing with any of my other systems. As far as compactness and handling goes I can only speak for the systems I've had and handled. There's simply no comparison in the ergos between my Sinar/Hy6 (or Contax, or Hassy body) and the S2. The S2 feels and handles like my Nikon D3s. Hand held shooting... which is a major consideration for me... is much easier with the S2.
 

Valentin

New member
....What we did find is that you could "force" AF backfocus by picking an object small enough so that it does not fill the inner circle. In this situation the AF seems to pick up the highest contrast object in the circle which may not be the precise point you wanted....
This reminds me of the early Canon cameras (10D..) where the focus sensor area was to big causing these types of problems. Later models changed the design with smaller areas improving and almost eliminating the problems.

This type of behavior will be exhibited with any camera.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Hi Marc
Interesting - thank you - I'll be following very carefully (and rather ruefully too!).

all the best
 

David Klepacki

New member
This reminds me of the early Canon cameras (10D..) where the focus sensor area was to big causing these types of problems. Later models changed the design with smaller areas improving and almost eliminating the problems.
Yes, this is exactly correct. Using smaller focusing sensors can vastly improve autofocus accuracy.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Tons of good input here. :thumbs:

Personally, I agree about the relative compactness of the S2 system compared to at least the H4D/40 with comparable lenses mounted. However, I would not presume to imply that it translates into superior handling characteristics. In the end it all comes down to ... did you get the pictures, and what percentage are usable? Don't care what form factor it is ... that is the criteria.

People with a long history of using Pro 35mm DSLRs, and less with MFD, will find the S2 more familiar. For me that is not the case ... MFD is just as familiar if not more so due to a consistent use of H cameras as well as various Pro DSLRs for many years now.

I just tried something I should have done immediately. I simply preset both the H4D/40 with HCD/35-70 set at 70mm, and the S2 with 70mm. I manually white balanced both cameras using a XRite Passport. (Speed of this WB set-up was not the issue at this time ... I'm sure the S2 has a short cut for doing this). The S2 was set to ISO640 and the H4D/40 @ 800

I then shot both cameras on and off a mono pod.

The idea was a simple shooting test of real subjects that are alive ... my poor long suffering wife and little doggy. Pics of the wifey in her PJs prepping Christmas Eve dinner will not be posted since I do not want a base-ball bat lump on my noggin for Christmas ... so you'll have to take my word for the following:

Much higher percentage of in-focus keepers from the H4D/40 ... faster lock-on and shooting. The S2 wasn't bad at all ... just not as quick and more importantly, not as accurate as often. The H sounds clunkier, but that clunkiness doesn't translate into camera movement (as I've demonstrated many times before, the H can be shot hand-held at pretty low shutter speeds, and as long as the subject isn't dancing around the results are surprising).

More than 50% of the wiggle worm doggy pics from the S2 were relatively unusable (7 out of 12). All but one of the H shots were good (9 out of 10 keepers). This warrants a LOT more investigation and testing of this type.

Using LR3 direct imports, color from the H camera was more neutral, and had less of a yellowish tint ... and almost no subtile discolored shadings on white walls exhibited by the S2. However, the noise on the S2 was better controlled, more than the difference between 640 and 800 would warrant. But that was Lightroom ... not Phocus.

Same H4D/40 file in Phocus made the ISO 800 noise better than the S2's 640 ... and the color was better than either file processed in LR3. This was a wake-up call to me to stop using LR for the Hassey photos ... for sure ISO 800 or 1600 files. Phocus absolutely rocks!

Then came the kicker ... I used True Focus on the tiny pup's eye at the far side of the frame and then recomposed .... dead nuts focus even though I was almost at minimum focusing distance. Not so successful with the S2 doing the same thing.

So the dilemma deepens. I need to shoot more real subjects, in real environments, in real shooting conditions ... keeping in mind all the hints and tips provided here. I do not need to do that with the H4D/40 ... it's has a proven track record that needs no stringent review for me.

Jury is still out. Whew, this is exhausting :ROTFL:

-Marc
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Marc,

I cannot comment on TF, as I used it only very little and I am - as you already know from me - thinking that there was also successful MF photography before TF, BUT I am pretty sure it is a real advancement in MF AF. So it is clear to me that the H4D is superior WRT TF compared to the normal AF of the S2.

Now WRT LR vs. Phocus - this was always clear to me that for H files Phocus rocks. I have said that from the very beginning when I started to shoot my H3D39 (old sensor technology) that the colors coming out of this cam in combination with Phocus just rock. As do higher ISO performance etc. Phocus with 3FR or FFF files is in my eyes even superior compared to C1Pro and Phase TIFF files - please no religious debates here, but this is my opinion based on the results I have seen from both systems.

So when one really decides to go Hasselblad then this should also mean using Phocus. There is no better way to fly in my opinion ;)

Anyway, thanks for all your comparison tests here, this really helps - maybe I can stay with Hasselblad and upgrade to H4D60 :)
 

jonoslack

Active member
So the dilemma deepens. I need to shoot more real subjects, in real environments, in real shooting conditions ... keeping in mind all the hints and tips provided here. I do not need to do that with the H4D/40 ... it's has a proven track record that needs no stringent review for me.

Jury is still out. Whew, this is exhausting :ROTFL:

-Marc
I'm feeling better already - my solution was so much simpler!
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I think what one should keep in mind and maybe a good way to describe the S2 compared to H and P is your not going to see much difference in bulk and weight. But what you will see is a more user history ergos for the S2. What mean by history is almost all of us came from that SLR style so ergos are more user friendly. This is a plus for the S2 as more folks are more familiar with it. But honestly my Phase kit lens wise is far smaller and lighter. Where P and H users take the ding and HY6 is body style.
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Marc,
Thanks for sharing, I too, want to add some less technical comments about my recent experience with the S2. I shoot with an H4D, but had the chance to play with the S2 in wet snow, here in the Northeast woods. 80% of my shooting is outdoor, I'm an adventurous landscape photographer that does portraits, so this seems like a perfect camera... First, it's easy to learn and use even with gloves on. It's simplistic nature is so intuitive that i'm reflective of nature when composing. The top OLED, is so cool until you need it, it really is useless in the day, cloudy or not. The AF was accurate only with nicely lit, close subjects, but nice colors and dynamic range right out of the camera. The "pull 80" ISO, also lacked dynamic range and was generally dull. Everyone comments on the lousy high ISO performance and no exceptions here. If there was better higher ISO performance, this would result in better low light handheld shots and thus, open it up to many more photographers. Shooting 1/3rd over exposure helps a little with noise in LR3, but not enough. This camera is fun to use and the option for CS or FP shutters are a must for faster action and/or high sync. I like to carry a camera around and this camera is perfect in any weather. This hybrid also has amazing batteries, unlike the dismal performance of the H4D. The aspect ratio is different and the thought of cropping out juicy pixels makes me cringe, but I can perhaps overlook this and shoot accordingly, because the camera is so capable in any weather environment. The blooming issues are also interesting. Why would the KAF 37.5 MP sensor, with it's 6 micron truesense technology differ so much with the H4D's KAF 40MP, with more or less the same technology?
I would gladly join the Leica family if these issue's are addressed and just in case Leica might read this, can you lower the price too?
 

jlm

Workshop Member
so... for another 40 grand or so, you better get a hell of a lot better image quality, because I don't see any other advantage:
compared to H4D-40
no true focus, AF is not as good, higher ISO is noisier, no zoom, limited lens selection, no real size saving, no user history of more than a year, no body of rental gear available should a component fail, purple fringing
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc,
Thanks for sharing, I too, want to add some less technical comments about my recent experience with the S2. I shoot with an H4D, but had the chance to play with the S2 in wet snow, here in the Northeast woods. 80% of my shooting is outdoor, I'm an adventurous landscape photographer that does portraits, so this seems like a perfect camera... First, it's easy to learn and use even with gloves on. It's simplistic nature is so intuitive that i'm reflective of nature when composing. The top OLED, is so cool until you need it, it really is useless in the day, cloudy or not. The AF was accurate only with nicely lit, close subjects, but nice colors and dynamic range right out of the camera. The "pull 80" ISO, also lacked dynamic range and was generally dull. Everyone comments on the lousy high ISO performance and no exceptions here. If there was better higher ISO performance, this would result in better low light handheld shots and thus, open it up to many more photographers. Shooting 1/3rd over exposure helps a little with noise in LR3, but not enough. This camera is fun to use and the option for CS or FP shutters are a must for faster action and/or high sync. I like to carry a camera around and this camera is perfect in any weather. This hybrid also has amazing batteries, unlike the dismal performance of the H4D. The aspect ratio is different and the thought of cropping out juicy pixels makes me cringe, but I can perhaps overlook this and shoot accordingly, because the camera is so capable in any weather environment. The blooming issues are also interesting. Why would the KAF 37.5 MP sensor, with it's 6 micron truesense technology differ so much with the H4D's KAF 40MP, with more or less the same technology?
I would gladly join the Leica family if these issue's are addressed and just in case Leica might read this, can you lower the price too?
Your comments on the AF accuracy are worrisome. To many people saying the same thing. :(

I think the difference between Hassey and the S2 is the tuned proprietary software ... although the Hassey files aren't all that bad in LR, they're not as good as in Phocus.

I can't comment on how easy it is to learn the S2 ... or operate with gloves.

What's up with your Hassey batteries? Maybe they need the fuel gauge reset? I do know that if you don't follow Hassey's recommended way of initial conditioning, they don't last as long, even with a reset guage.

-Marc
 

David K

Workshop Member
Interesting test Marc and I'm not surprised that you're getting better results with the system you've been using. I'm sure you and Guy and a lot of other shooters have mastered your MF kits to the point where shooting them is second nature... as easy for you guys as a DSLR. Unfortunately for me... I'm not a member of that club. As good as my Sinar/Hy6 kit is IQ wise it's no speed demon... at least not in my hands. I am much more comfortable with the form factor of the Nikon/Canon/S2 body than any of the MF kits I've shot with. Pretty sure I'm part of the demographic that Leica was targeting for this camera. Others will have to decide for themselves.
 

David K

Workshop Member
Marc,
The top OLED, is so cool until you need it, it really is useless in the day, cloudy or not.
Mine is useless too. I think there's an issue with these on the early release cameras that's been addressed by Leica. I plan on sending mine in for replacement before the warranty period expires (March, 2011 for me). I also plan on purchasing an additional year of warranty before mine expires. Not cheap at $1500 for another year but at least it's an available option.
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
Fascinating, Marc began his second round with the S2 by saying how much better he felt AF was this go-around. Toward the end of the thread, there is an overall sense of AF angst amongst most posters. Not defending or accusing, I just find the 'focus shift' interesting.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Fascinating, Marc began his second round with the S2 by saying how much better he felt AF was this go-around. Toward the end of the thread, there is an overall sense of AF angst amongst most posters. Not defending or accusing, I just find the 'focus shift' interesting.
My reference was about AF speed and aquiring the target ... but I think the comments are more concerning accuracy.

The new firmware was just released right? So previous users may not have been using a camera with it installed.

Also, how does one determine which firmware is installed in the lenses? I see there is also a firmware update for lenses.

Need to do more testing on this,

-Marc
 

johnnygoesdigital

New member
Jim,

There are plenty of rental houses that have S2's, especially in your area. I think comparing IQ is a moot point because there all good. I wasn't interested in the S2 for that reason, compared to the H4D. Software and glass will ultimately, decide the best MFD for certain applications. I do, however, think that Leica is listening and have already made improvements based on some comments made here. In terms of comparing the H4D to the S2, I've tried that, but if it's raining or snowing outside, there's only one camera I can play with. Controlled testing of equipment is great as a reference, but with changing humidity levels, condensation, temperature fluctuations, things that can really effect performance or operation at all, well then your right, there's no comparison. The H4D is a fantastic camera, but for me, it's limited to where I can go or how fast I can shoot. The option of two shutters in the S2 is huge! I wouldn't be comfortable shooting a pod of whales off the side of a Boston Whaler going 40 mph with the H4D, but I can do that with an S2 and still use it for a fashion shoot tomorrow. Better yet, I'll put the model on the pod of whales and click away! There's a huge amount of interest in this camera and it only makes sense for Leica to adapt. Basically, there reputation for MFD depends on it. Again, these are my opinions and for me, this camera is the best of both MFD realms and if Leica can address these and other known issues then I'm in.

Marc, I have followed the Hasselblad instructions for batteries, but still get a low shutter count, for me that's around 180/200. To save battery power, I have set the digital back to remain off and the brightness, contrast, and sounds are all turned off or down to see if this helps. I mostly use the DB to check bracketed exposures.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Interesting test Marc and I'm not surprised that you're getting better results with the system you've been using. I'm sure you and Guy and a lot of other shooters have mastered your MF kits to the point where shooting them is second nature... as easy for you guys as a DSLR. Unfortunately for me... I'm not a member of that club. As good as my Sinar/Hy6 kit is IQ wise it's no speed demon... at least not in my hands. I am much more comfortable with the form factor of the Nikon/Canon/S2 body than any of the MF kits I've shot with. Pretty sure I'm part of the demographic that Leica was targeting for this camera. Others will have to decide for themselves.
Yeah, I think that is quite true. As I said, I still am interested in whether this form factor will bring a bit swifter shooting flow .... and I won't say one way or the other, because I don't care what it is, it takes time for anything to become second nature. Oddly, I'm actually faster with the H camera than my Sony A900 because of more experience and the way Hasselblad designed the control placements and programability of buttons to be direct functions.

I like this camera a lot! The top LCD seemed fine so far ... but it is a newer camera. The rear LCD is light years ahead of the other guys. So, I need to play more and figure out the AF better ... and test it at various distances. I cannot hack missed focus with the work I do ... often one chance and that's it. Accuracy is preferable over speed ... which is why I liked the Sony A900. It wasn't the fastest, but deadly accurate. Now, with new firmware it is also fast without giving up any accuracy.

Not worried that much about the S2 IQ since I see enough right away to know that with work I can zero in on what I want.

Just need a little time.

-Marc
 
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