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S2 Impressions: A year later.

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Consider:

First camera arrived broken. Second camera wouldn't shoot photos.

Two strikes and Leica is out. Three strikes and I'm out ... of business.

If it worked, I'd own it, warts and all.

Addressing counter points one-by-one is fruitless. Suffice it to say after tens of thousands of images, Hasselblad has delivered ... under pressure, fast enough, in focus, with image quality ... from day one. I trust it.

Those lucky enough to have a good S2 ... enjoy and be well :)

All the best,

-Marc
I fully subscribe this!

Peter
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Ouch. Friggin OUCH! Sorry to hear that Marc, I know how much you wanted it to work...
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
Marc,

I'm very sorry you experienced problems with your S2 adventure.

The cracked sensor glass was a known issue about 6 months ago and affected M9s as well (actually much more so). The cause was a defective batch of sensor cover glass pieces being produced by Kodak. They would be fine upon installation and testing in Solms, then crack later following shipment or even a few weeks after normal use. Once Leica discovered the problem, they ceased production of both S2 and M9 while they worked through the issue with Kodak. When Kodak fixed the problem and started producing a new batch of sensors, production of cameras commenced. Any new camera shipped within the last several months should not have this problem. Perhaps the camera you first received was an off-demo or was sitting in inventory for a while.

As far as the lock-up problem, we haven't seen this with cameras we've delivered to customers. As Mark Gowin mentioned previously in this thread, he experienced something similar (but different in behavior). We quickly narrowed it down to a bad battery cell and, once replaced, all has been fine.

When we were giving a group demo at a college a few months ago, some photo students using their own cards experienced problems. These were the result of using very old and/or very cheap CF cards, all of which were non-UDMA. We put in our UDMA6 Transcend cards and all was good again. On the last shoot we did with Ocean Drive, the camera did become unresponsive after shooting a continuous burst of about 100 shots (over the course of 2 minutes or so). The CF access light was lit, but the shutter was frozen. I pulled the battery and reinserted it. Boot-up time on the S2 is 1/3 of a second. After that the camera was fine for the rest of the day (1200 images were taken). We'll call it a sub-1 second fix. I reported the incident to Germany but it is very tough to repeat those exact conditions.

So, like Mark, I'd be curious about the battery and for myself, what memory card you were using (and if you tried various CF cards).

Often, it is small things that are easy to fix that appear to be larger, more catastrophic issues. Certainly, when you are in the moment, you want to have confidence in your chosen camera system and any problem, no matter how easy to fix, seems like a major one.

I'm happy to help troubleshoot further if you want. Sorry again the S2 didn't work out for you.

David
 

David Klepacki

New member
What??????

I was really enjoying this thread and hoping to see some great S2 images today ..... and I see these "updates"?

To say this is extremely disappointing is an understatement. I rarely use DSLR any more, but I was almost getting convinced to get one of these S2 kits myself.

You know, there is an old joke on statistics about how to avoid getting onto a plane with an unknown bomb on it by bringing your own bomb, since the mathematical likelihood of two bombs being on the same plane is astronomical. So, maybe by already experiencing two defective Leica S2 cameras, you will never again experience a defective one. What are the odds, right?

Maybe you just need a cooling off period, and will still revisit the S2 at a later time.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
What??????

I was really enjoying this thread and hoping to see some great S2 images today ..... and I see these "updates"?

To say this is extremely disappointing is an understatement. I rarely use DSLR any more, but I was almost getting convinced to get one of these S2 kits myself.

You know, there is an old joke on statistics about how to avoid getting onto a plane with an unknown bomb on it by bringing your own bomb, since the mathematical likelihood of two bombs being on the same plane is astronomical. So, maybe by already experiencing two defective Leica S2 cameras, you will never again experience a defective one. What are the odds, right?

Maybe you just need a cooling off period, and will still revisit the S2 at a later time.
Already tried the "two bomb" trick David :)

I did manage to get off one in-focus S2 shot with the 70mm ... but it was literally the first shot of the day before I could work the subjects into a more relaxed state.

Here it is with a Sony shot at the same location after swapping out cameras. While the Sony is no slouch, the S2 file shows oodles of potential. Not to mention the native size is 14" X 21" @ 360 ppi where the sony is 11" x 16" @ 360 ppi. Both pretty much as they came out of the camera, I haven't done any minor retouching yet until the client picks the images they want.

-Marc
 

D&A

Well-known member
Hi Mark & All,

I hadn't revisited this thread for a few days but just caught up and was sad and dismayed to hear the news of the early failure of the S2. Although its been out for a year, the teething pains reminds me of the M8, where those early adopters, especially those planning to use it on paying or work related jobs, got a bit of a rude awakening. Not just for the magenta-UVIR filter issue, but for badly focus-calibrated bodies right out of the box and the lack of realization by Leica that many lenses out there calibrated in the film days would also need to be sent back for adjustment. Combine this with early electronic/shutter issues and it took a while to sort things out. Even by the time the M8.2 was released, not everything percentage wise was where it should have been...although it was getting close. Only around the time of the M9, was the system sort of reaching a steady state where except for the cracked sensor issue, the percentage of other problematic issues seen with the M9 (especially one-off individual bodies with their own particular issues), was sort of around, percentage wide, what one would generally see in other systems too.

The S2 issues as experienced by some users although different than that found with the M8/M8.2, appears to need the same sort of shake out time before the system is reliable/dependable enough to have complete confidence in its use, especially for a paying job. To sit there with a client and not have the camera fire or act up in some unreliable way, is unfortunately unacceptable.

I too have seriously contemplated the S2 and know in time, its going to be what we all hope and expect...no different than when the M9 finally reached its present stage of maturity.

Like others have expressed, my heartfelt thanks and appreciation to Marc and all others who have taken time out discuss their experiences, both good and bad (along with their images) in helping to define what the system has to offer, and its present state of capabilities in a wide variety of shooting enviorments.

Dave (D&A)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I am glad to see you cloned out the no bicycles sign in the second photo. It was distracting in the first photo.
Yeah Mark, I had done that for the client's Proof DVD for just that shot to show the clients it could be seamlessly removed ... the S2 shot wasn't on the DVD because of his squinty expression, not because the S2 file wasn't nice ... it was very nice.

I cannot express how disappointed I was. When I got to the location at the University of Michigan Law Quad, (where the clients went to school), and saw the muted quality of light and all the architectural background possibilities I was very excited.

I thought I'd be posting some beautiful S2 images here as part of my final conclusion instead of a tale of woe. The 35 and 180 never had a chance to come out of the bag :( I think they're just as pissed at the camera as I am ...:ROTFL:

This was an important shoot for me ... not the nature of shoot which was a routine engagement session for a wedding client ... but because the nice couple are from very well connected families in wealthy Grosse Pointe and Franklin Village MI. Clients like this place a high value on photography, are demanding but easy to work with, and are willing to pay for a premium product without blinking an eye. It was a "gateway" shoot because my business lives and dies on word-of-mouth.

Some folks may wonder why MFD for this type work? Especially a camera in the Rolls Royce strata.

I've taken to using the highest quality tools I can get to do this work ... Leica M9 for candid available light, the Sony A900 for some action stuff ... plus more and more MFD portraits & environmental portraits, as well as church interiors and large sweeping shots of locations etc. ... because I sell big albums and large wall prints. The smallest album I do requires 13"X19" @ 360 dpi images for full bleed spreads. With cropping, perspective corrections, etc. MFD provides max data to work with and few compromises in IQ.

Yesterday, I got a call from the father of the Bride who received an Album from his daughter for Christmas ... he went on and on about the photography, citing specific images and how rich and detailed they were, how beautiful the church spread was, etc. etc. ... and how he has taken it to his work and passed out my cards to interested parties. He is a big shot Lawyer from Grosse Pointe Farms. This level of client is very cliquish and endorsements with-in their circle of influence plays a huge role in getting more high-end work.

The S2 would have fit right in this working scenario, while simplifying the gear bag.

-Marc

Sorry for the longish response to a simple statement ... but clarity of purpose plays a big role in decisions like this.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Marc,
besides your functional problems, would you mind to comment how you found the files of the S2 to compare to those of the A900?
Thanks a lot, Tom
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Hi Mark & All,

I hadn't revisited this thread for a few days but just caught up and was sad and dismayed to hear the news of the early failure of the S2. Although its been out for a year, the teething pains reminds me of the M8, where those early adopters, especially those planning to use it on paying or work related jobs, got a bit of a rude awakening. Not just for the magenta-UVIR filter issue, but for badly focus-calibrated bodies right out of the box and the lack of realization by Leica that many lenses out there calibrated in the film days would also need to be sent back for adjustment. Combine this with early electronic/shutter issues and it took a while to sort things out. Even by the time the M8.2 was released, not everything percentage wise was where it should have been...although it was getting close. Only around the time of the M9, was the system sort of reaching a steady state where except for the cracked sensor issue, the percentage of other problematic issues seen with the M9 (especially one-off individual bodies with their own particular issues), was sort of around, percentage wide, what one would generally see in other systems too.

The S2 issues as experienced by some users although different than that found with the M8/M8.2, appears to need the same sort of shake out time before the system is reliable/dependable enough to have complete confidence in its use, especially for a paying job. To sit there with a client and not have the camera fire or act up in some unreliable way, is unfortunately unacceptable.

I too have seriously contemplated the S2 and know in time, its going to be what we all hope and expect...no different than when the M9 finally reached its present stage of maturity.

Like others have expressed, my heartfelt thanks and appreciation to Marc and all others who have taken time out discuss their experiences, both good and bad (along with their images) in helping to define what the system has to offer, and its present state of capabilities in a wide variety of shooting enviorments.

Dave (D&A)
Well stated Dave.

I was one of those M8 sufferers. Half my lenses wouldn't focus correctly, even after the camera was sent back to be properly calibrated. The system was down for over 6+ months. I use a M digital for my paying work, and this was a nightmare time for me.

The M9s have been much better. Although not perfect ... one of them has to go back because the LCD fades to black during review when you tilt the camera to see a portrait oriented image. Faulty tilt sensor, power issue, or lose connection perhaps? I live in dread regarding the cracked sensor issue with my first earlier M9 which is okay so far. It's always something with Leica.

I'm sure Leica will sort this all out over time as the S2 system matures. Unfortunately, I'm also as sure that it'll be beyond my means by then :(

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc,
besides your functional problems, would you mind to comment how you found the files of the S2 to compare to those of the A900?
Thanks a lot, Tom
Well Tom, it's hard to say since I only got off a few S2 shots in that light prior to lock-up :(

But at full resolution on my 30" screens, the S2 files are beautiful. Lots of subtile detail, superb color separation and amazing clarity. Not unfamiliar traits since I use a MFD for this type of work all the time.

As many here know, the Sony A900 is a pretty capable camera in terms of IQ, and the files hold their own up to a point. They are a bit more plastic feeling when enlarged, but better than most CMOS cameras IMO. However, this is why I prefer CCD sensor cameras. The Sony has its place because of the ultra fast Zeiss lenses and background Bokeh that produces that 3D feel especially prized in portrait work. The only MFD lenses I've used that do a similar job is the 110/2 FE and HC 100/2.2.

Unfortunately, I never got the S180 out of the bag to see how that would compare to the Sony 135/1.8 in terms of image rendering. That would have been very interesting given the ideal lighting and ability to place the subjects with very interesting background elements far enough away to evaluate bokeh and 3D qualities.

Frankly, if the A900 was pretty close, I wouldn't even have considered the S2 ... but it's not close any more than it is close to my H4D/40. However, as stated, it does have its own charms for certain work ... and for IQ is the best 35mm AF DSLR with a range of versatile lenses out there IMO. However, for 35mm work, I prefer the Leica M9 files over the Sony by a good margin ... which incidentally uses a CCD sensor ;)

-Marc

Another Sony A900 shot: ISO 320, ZA85/1.4 @ f/1.6 ... again pretty much as out of the camera for proofing review before any retouching. Pissed me off because this is also where I wanted to try the S35 for an alternative dramatic perspective, with the arcade column architecture more in focus.:mad:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Actually Marc the Sony 900 held the highlights very nicely here.
Yeah Guy, the fairly wide midtone response of the Sony is part of it's magic I think. You can hold the highlights without muddying up the midtones too much.

At first I had a hard time with B&W conversions being to flat for that reason, but have since worked some plug-ins to mitigate that.

Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I have a gig in two weeks in LA the runway stuff again under tungsten and planning on the A850 so it will get a good run to see how it does under stage lighting. Highlights get blown easily so see how it does. Here is where the S2 would have fit in for me but not sure it could handle the load and ISO as well. Plus i have to process on demand 100's of images to go up in hours not days. Pushing big files is not something I am after as well.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I have a gig in two weeks in LA the runway stuff again under tungsten and planning on the A850 so it will get a good run to see how it does under stage lighting. Highlights get blown easily so see how it does.
Guy, be sure to set manual WB ... the AWB and even Tungsten settings leave a bit to be desired ... then when you CC it, the exposures aren't so on any more.

If using flash (?), read up on how to assign flash comp to the C button on the back ... very fast for riding the comp.

-Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Actually no flash and was going to set it for 3400 or 3200 . I will do a quick test and nail it before I run with it. I can always do a select all in C1 after WB in the program and apply to all at once as well. So i have some options but on this gig rather nail it to start since it is a truck load to deal with.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
So a year later and the S2 is still ranked beneath the Sony as a DSLR form-factor camera... I don't think that bodes well for the longevity of the S2.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Another Sony A900 shot: ISO 320, ZA85/1.4 @ f/1.6 ... again pretty much as out of the camera for proofing review before any retouching. Pissed me off because this is also where I wanted to try the S35 for an alternative dramatic perspective, with the arcade column architecture more in focus.:mad:
You're not using Capture One's Chromatic Aberration Removal or Skin Tone Consistency as part of your Import Base Style are you :p.

I HATE chromatic aberration! Pet peeve of mine along with nearly-level horizons.

I'm sure the client never notices, but I just can't stand it! Get it all the time with my Canon 85mm/1.2. Thank goodness for C1!

Great shot by the way!

My New Years resolution is to get you to switch to C1 for raw processing. Not the whole world - just you :).
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
You're not using Capture One's Chromatic Aberration Removal or Skin Tone Consistency as part of your Import Base Style are you :p.

I HATE chromatic aberration! Pet peeve of mine along with nearly-level horizons.

I'm sure the client never notices, but I just can't stand it! Get it all the time with my Canon 85mm/1.2. Thank goodness for C1!

Great shot by the way!

My New Years resolution is to get you to switch to C1 for raw processing. Not the whole world - just you :).

Good luck been trying for awhile now. LOL
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
So a year later and the S2 is still ranked beneath the Sony as a DSLR form-factor camera... I don't think that bodes well for the longevity of the S2.
The Sony form factor is what i really like. The controls are so shooter friendly. Honestly better than any Nikon/Canon I ever had and even better than my beloved DMR. That's saying a lot for me. The S2 I did not like the grip at the bottom was way to wide and put too much pressure on ring and pinky fingers. The S2 was nice but in all honesty I like the Sony ergos much better for this style. But we all have different ergo preferences.
 
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