S2 Impressions: A year later.

[Geoff]

FWIW - a side story: I've been avoiding the S2 debate, having appreciated it so much while holding it briefly. Big $, limited lenses, and while it has the sexiest form factor, my needs were for WLF instead. Just lazy with the DSLR format - don't think as hard. Composing off that glass in a WLF just makes me work harder and take better shots - for each his own.

One day in Colorado, the Hy6 and I went for a brief mountain stroll - or so it started. 4 hours later we (!) were both on the side of a mountain, too exhausted to go up or down, with about 3 hours work either way. Well, we got out of that jam, but upon getting home, I found that the Leaf back and the camera had decided to quarrel as well - something about the thin air, the cold, and the lack of any rational behaviour that day.

Needless to say, a family pow-wow was held, and all parties agreed to start over, and not do anything like that again.

All this to point out that sometimes the best of friends sometimes do silly things they regret later. I would have taken out my anger at the camera and back, except that I was even more stupid than they. Everyone has been on good behaviour since.

Clearly not a professional expedition. Not even close.

 

[fotografz]

Hcubell,

What are your sources for the S2 not being reliable? Please indicate where there is a pattern for these malfunctions, other than what you've gleaned off these forums. The fact that people are purchasing Leica because they hold value seems to be a bonus. If I purchase a Leica lens for the S2 now, I will get the same return if I sell it a year from now! It's like getting the free use of a lens.

To apply your own logic ... how do you know this?

Sounds like purchase justification to me ... I should know, I've used it myself too many times ... :ROTFL:

There are demo S2Ps WITH the 70mm lens available now for $25K or $26K. New retail they are 28K +$5K = $33K That is a $8,000 drop in a year and those aren't private owners selling. Same scenario for most any MFD kit. Trouble is all this gear cost so much that it is mostly people with the means buying them or companies that can write them off ... so they buy used only if it's a really a good deal.

In other words, why would I pay you full price a year later, rather than buying from a trusted dealer and get a full new warranty?

This stuff isn't Leica M. All these ROI scenarios have to be proven out yet.

The only ROI worth considering is ROU ... Return On Usage.

-Marc

 

[KeithL]

I guess the point of all this that it's okay to be emotionally attached and passionate about the brand that you use ...

You'd be better served by saving emotion and passion for your images rather than your cameras.

 

[jonoslack]

Seems that what it all boils down to is a 'professional/amateur' schism (I do so dislike the term 'hobbyist').

Leica needs lots of enthusiastic amateur photographers (of the well heeled variety) to buy S2's so that all the glitches can be ironed out.

I guess that this has been a large driving force for the improvement of the M8/M9, and I think it will be for the S2 as well (I'm not joining in, but it's nothing to do with the camera - it's to do with my need for MF).

When the rich enthusiasts have helped Leica get it sorted, then it's time for the (rightly) cautious pros to start jumping in.

ooops . . . supposed to be resting

Happy new year everyone

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Well, to be fair ... that is hypothetical also.

First of all there aren't that many S2s out there ... and secondly, how many are in the hands of people who hold that "I need it to work" standard of performance ... I mean, really need it?

Not knocking anything here, just there isn't enough solid information either way.

My initial post was simply a S2 report a year later ... the advances ... and unfortunately the hiccups.

To tell the truth, not many professional photographers, even very successful ones, are very quick to grab the latest greatest. A little bit lesser performance with a very stable platform is pretty highly prized ... and not many are in a hurry to engage in hypothetical anything when it comes to gear. There are enough unknowns and variables in photography already without introducing more.

-Marc

I read somewhere (I think it was the Leica camera forum) that the majority of the buyers for the S2 so far were still non-professionals. Those who don't fall into the "need it to work" category, as you say Marc. Of course, this is FAR from an official stat ...

... Nor does it mean that the S2 is not a "pro" camera, it certainly is in terms of price, specs, etc. However, even though the price will always remain a barrier to some ... I sincerely hope Leica gets their lens lineup and overall reliability to the point where more genuine professionals are successfully embracing it.

"World's best hobby camera" or "world's most expensive hobby camera" are not exactly terms that company wants to be known for -- not even Leica.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Funny I don't like the term amateur seems like they don't know anything yet by definition of course. Hobbyist seems like a much more pleasant word as it does not stick a experience label on it. I know OT but maybe it is a culture thing.

Here check this out interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur

Look at this which is why I don't like to use the word

Amateurism can be seen in both a negative and positive light. Since amateurs often do not have formal training, some amateur work may be sub-par. For example, amateur athletes in sports such as basketball baseball or football are regarded as having a lower level of ability than professional athletes.

Than look at this

Hobbies are practiced for interest and enjoyment, rather than financial reward. Examples include collecting, creative and artistic pursuits, making, tinkering, sports and adult education. Engaging in a hobby can lead to acquiring substantial skill, knowledge and experience. However, personal fulfillment is the aim.


I know crazy but very interesting we use different words to mean the same thing.

BTW Anthony welcome to GetDPI . Nice first post

 

[Mike M]

Well said Mike. What gets my jets rolling is what i am shooting. These tools I pick because they fit me and i do like them for sure but my buy laundry list is very long and sure fit, feel and being comfortable with me are a big consideration but I have a whole lot more to consider than just that. Look i like Leica too guys and certainly people buy them for lets admit it because it is Leica and they like expensive gear or they follow the Red dot. Okay someone had to say it but we all know that is true and nothing wrong with that and frankly I understand it for hobbyist for sure but most Pro's have a different value on tools. I'm in a different mindset all together that stuff is very unimportant to me even though I do like Leica products( owned several) my buy choices and emotions are based use -value and not a commodity item which many folks buy the brand they like and such as Mike says.

Sure with cars i buy German a BMW and actually 2 VW are in my stable. Here it is a commodity purchase i love German cars and how they handle and are built. But cameras no, they are working tools that need to perform a function of my vision. I don't put much stock in a name here but how they will work for me on many levels. As i have said I found that in Phase and very happy with that decision and been through several bodies and backs . Which tells me I upgraded as needed without switching system which is a huge check mark for them. Its a product line that is getting the job done for me. But emotionally i would flip it on a dime if i found something that may work better for me. Clue here i have been married twice . I flipped the first one without emotion and the second is awesome. :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Thanks for the detailed response, Guy It seems we might share a similar wavelength because your post emphasizes exactly the idea that I intended to convey....

We both agree that deciding factors for us when it comes to gear are connected to their use-value. But that doesn't mean we won't get emotional about them, it just means that the deciding factor is use-value. Emotional responses and tactile feels and stuff might be secondary factors. For example, you stated that you like to buy cars for reasons other than use-value...That's cool! I do the same thing when purchasing non-business related items. People can buy whatever they want for whatever reason...But I don't treat business the same way as personal life because that would be irresponsible.

If somebody tells a businessman that he's making a business decision (like purchasing gear) on emotional factors rather that use-value factors....then he's insulting the intelligence and choices of the responsible businessman. That's why I felt compelled to defend you with my original post. But since there are more hobbyists than business people in forums the "group mind" or whatever might have difficulty relating and they don't often understand when they are being insulting.

Just for the record...I sure as hell am not telling hobbyists that they can't buy a piece of gear. They can buy whatever they want for whatever reason! Please buy S2s...buy them by the truckload! Anyone that would suggest I think otherwise is just not understanding the intent of my original post.

Heck, I don't care why a person buys a high-end camera.... The only thing that matters is that they buy it and the folks at places like Leica, Alpa, Arca, Linhof etc can stay in business and offer lots of gear choices in the market place. Plus, it's no secret that enthusiasts finance the creation of high end professional gear. If they stopped buying, for whatever reason, then the gear would no longer be available for the "pros" either...Thank God for the enthusiasts!

 

[Mike M]

Funny I don't like the term amateur seems like they don't know anything yet by definition of course. Hobbyist seems like a much more pleasant word as it does not stick a experience label on it. I know OT but maybe it is a culture thing.

Here check this out interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur

Look at this which is why I don't like to use the word

Amateurism can be seen in both a negative and positive light. Since amateurs often do not have formal training, some amateur work may be sub-par. For example, amateur athletes in sports such as basketball baseball or football are regarded as having a lower level of ability than professional athletes.

Than look at this

Hobbies are practiced for interest and enjoyment, rather than financial reward. Examples include collecting, creative and artistic pursuits, making, tinkering, sports and adult education. Engaging in a hobby can lead to acquiring substantial skill, knowledge and experience. However, personal fulfillment is the aim.


I know crazy but very interesting we use different words to mean the same thing.

BTW Anthony welcome to GetDPI . Nice first post

you're right about that

I'm trying my best to say "enthusiast" as much as possible to differentiate between the people that do photography for a living and the ones that do it for non-profit.

The other word I'm trying to get away from is the term "professional." It's too often abused as a seal of approval for high end gear or technique etc. But we probably should be focusing on craftsmanship and striving to be master "craftsman" rather than professionals. Craftsmanship is something that everybody can aspire towards regardless of their status as an enthusiast or a money-making gun-for-hire.

I honestly hate the term professional. It connects photographic legitimacy with the advertising industry or the consumer portrait/wedding industry. Art and craftsmanship should be divorced from consumers as much as possible. Yes, elements of art might be used in advertising and craftsmanship might be a factor in consumer portrait work etc. But if the purpose is to make money then that is the dominant factor and NOT craftsmanship or artistic merit. IF we want to garner respect for photography and create a close-knit community of like-minded individuals then it's best to focus on high-minded universals like art and craftsmanship over profit.

In general, I think we should all start trying harder to divorce photographic art and craftsmanship from money as much as possible. That would get rid of a lot of miscommunication, and also allow the enthusiasts or "hobbyists" to stop feeling like they are in competition with business people...which they are not.

 

[fotografz]

This thread has become so scattered that it's difficult to track the conversation.

Amateur, Professional, Hobbyist ... often we all are all of the above aren't we?

At this stage, I think it may be important to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Emotional attachment to gear can happen i suppose, but it is a separate endeavor I think. If you are admiring your camera while shooting, or take it with you because you admire it, or worse ... someone else will admire it ... then perhaps I'd suggest reordering your priorities more toward what you are shooting, not what you are shooting with

I'm involved with documenting a remarkable 90 year old woman's life for a book project. For my first meeting at her ... hmmm ... eclectic home yesterday, I sat in conversation while she smoked Pall Malls, sipped her scotch ... and in her raspy voice weaved a tale only someone intensely involved with life could tell. She knows every speck of history related to the Historical Village I live in ... all in incredible detail. She even told me how her husband and her sat listening to FDR's Pearl Harbor speech ... on a 1938 Hallicrafter radio she still has in the living room!

The only gear thought I had was to match gear ability to need before I left. I took my rangefinder and never gave it a thought after that except to turn it on ... and even that was just muscle memory. My attachment was 100% to her. Gear is nothing when in action ... unless it gets fussy, acts up or fails. Then it is an unwelcome intruder, interrupting the very process it was designed to help you accomplish.

-Marc

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

Leica lens prices have gone up $500.00 or more as of this year. If one purchased a 70mm or 35mm at 2010 prices then it seems after approx. 5000 clicks that I could sell this lens in 2012 for exactly what I originally paid. It's not purchase justification at all, just incentive.

 

[PeterA]

This just gets better and better...

Just my experience old chap.

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

you're right about that

I'm trying my best to say "enthusiast" as much as possible to differentiate between the people that do photography for a living and the ones that do it for non-profit.

The other word I'm trying to get away from is the term "professional." It's too often abused as a seal of approval for high end gear or technique etc. But we probably should be focusing on craftsmanship and striving to be master "craftsman" rather than professionals. Craftsmanship is something that everybody can aspire towards regardless of their status as an enthusiast or a money-making gun-for-hire.

I honestly hate the term professional. It connects photographic legitimacy with the advertising industry or the consumer portrait/wedding industry. Art and craftsmanship should be divorced from consumers as much as possible. Yes, elements of art might be used in advertising and craftsmanship might be a factor in consumer portrait work etc. But if the purpose is to make money then that is the dominant factor and NOT craftsmanship or artistic merit. IF we want to garner respect for photography and create a close-knit community of like-minded individuals then it's best to focus on high-minded universals like art and craftsmanship over profit.

In general, I think we should all start trying harder to divorce photographic art and craftsmanship from money as much as possible. That would get rid of a lot of miscommunication, and also allow the enthusiasts or "hobbyists" to stop feeling like they are in competition with business people...which they are not.

Wow,
MikeM, I had to read your comment a few times to be sure that's what you wrote. My guess, is the couple looking to document their wedding day is not going to trust these important photos to the hobbyist. Also, there is no competition from pro's because they get paid to do it. The word professional comes from profession. Simply put, the Master craftsman is considered a professional and is paid accordingly.

 

[fotografz]

you're right about that

I'm trying my best to say "enthusiast" as much as possible to differentiate between the people that do photography for a living and the ones that do it for non-profit.

The other word I'm trying to get away from is the term "professional." It's too often abused as a seal of approval for high end gear or technique etc. But we probably should be focusing on craftsmanship and striving to be master "craftsman" rather than professionals. Craftsmanship is something that everybody can aspire towards regardless of their status as an enthusiast or a money-making gun-for-hire.

I honestly hate the term professional. It connects photographic legitimacy with the advertising industry or the consumer portrait/wedding industry. Art and craftsmanship should be divorced from consumers as much as possible. Yes, elements of art might be used in advertising and craftsmanship might be a factor in consumer portrait work etc. But if the purpose is to make money then that is the dominant factor and NOT craftsmanship or artistic merit. IF we want to garner respect for photography and create a close-knit community of like-minded individuals then it's best to focus on high-minded universals like art and craftsmanship over profit.

In general, I think we should all start trying harder to divorce photographic art and craftsmanship from money as much as possible. That would get rid of a lot of miscommunication, and also allow the enthusiasts or "hobbyists" to stop feeling like they are in competition with business people...which they are not.

Totally disagree, except the part where enthusiasts shouldn't feel less than any other photographer ... IF they ply their endeavor with passion and determination.

Holding up the art world as a paragon of purity and goodness is a fantasy indulged in by wishful thinkers ... or those who where never actually involved with it. Just as much politics and a$$ kissing, and all that, as with commercial work ... IMO, more. Lots of money at stake also, checked out Michael Kenna's and others prices lately?

My contact with the "commercial" photography world was one of constant challenge and the search for the new ... with money as the prize. Incredible talent, excellent craftsmanship, and almost super-human dedication was the norm ... or the photographer disappeared, or was relegated to technical exercises to make a "scrape by" living. I'm not talking about the hacks anymore than the art world is represented by the local branch of the Ladies Painting and Crafts Club. Survival of the fittest is at play here. If you aren't moving froward you are already dead.

Without money no Architecture. No movies. No Music. No Fashion. No Nothing. Just the Dark Ages with local folks doing their thing.

I say increase the value of photography in people's lives ... let the enthusiasts make money, and competitively strive to make more. Purpose is a great motivator. Paid purpose can be even more motivating. It gets the work shown and appreciated and helps others grow. To quote someone from the art world ...

A painting kept in the closet, might as well be kept in the head. -Picasso

-Marc

 

[Mike M]

Hrmm... ya'll just did exactly the same thing as Peter

you didn't understand what I wrote...then responded with a bunch of stuff that I actually agree with...while thinking that you're arguing with me

it's funny forums are probably just not a good medium for this kind of discussion

 

[PeterA]

Dont worry Mike - no one holds any grudges in here - part fo the charm of the place is the great variety of characters and points of view.:talk028:

However you do get some polarised discussion whenever you see the following 'trigger words'

Leica ( anything about them)
Phase One ( you arent allowed to citicise them )
Hasselblad they are ok but not as good as Phase One
Professional
Hobbyist

then you have the hard liners ( its about the photo Taliban) who think photography is about the photo versus anyone else who thinks it is about the process and the journey

:ROTFL:

Cheers
Pete

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

PeterA,

Do you have a poster of yourself that I can hang in my room? I love your comments!

 

[fotografz]

Hrmm... ya'll just did exactly the same thing as Peter

you didn't understand what I wrote...then responded with a bunch of stuff that I actually agree with...while thinking that you're arguing with me

it's funny forums are probably just not a good medium for this kind of discussion

Well, I did take it that you meant art and craftsmanship should be divorced from money since that's what you said. In the real world that is the measure ... no art or craftsmanship, no money ...publish or perish.

However, I think I do grasp the notion if it is the sole reason someone gets into doing "art". When I painted and showed, I could have made a lot more money painting kids with big eyes ... or sappy scenes and calling myself the "Lord of Light" or something :ROTFL: Frankly, I haven't seen many commercial photographers do that ... and if they did, they were gone as fast as a restaurant in NYC that serves crappy food.

What cannot be dictated is the general level of taste. If freedom of the "money chains" were so effective, where's the soaring levels of work? One thing is certain, there are more serious enthusiasts shooting photographs than there are professionals.

-Marc

 

[PeterA]

here ya go Johnny.:bugeyes: one of my leica shooting pals trust me much better lookin than me:ROTFL:

 

[docmoore]

PeterA,

Do you have a poster of yourself that I can hang in my room? I love your comments!

Peter(A),

I will be happy with a poster of your tractor!:ROTFL:

Life always looks better on the other side of the globe...until the sleep deprivation abates. Then it is pretty much the same....what you make of it,
irrespective of manufacturer or lens, it is pretty much a vision thing which you seem to have nailed.

All good.

Bob

 

[David Klepacki]

Dont worry Mike - no one holds any grudges in here - part fo the charm of the place is the great variety of characters and points of view.:talk028:

However you do get some polarised discussion whenever you see the following 'trigger words'

Leica ( anything about them)
Phase One ( you arent allowed to citicise them )
Hasselblad they are ok but not as good as Phase One
Professional
Hobbyist

then you have the hard liners ( its about the photo Taliban) who think photography is about the photo versus anyone else who thinks it is about the process and the journey

:ROTFL:

Cheers
Pete

I would add Alpa to this list, maybe even at the top ... a guaranteed fire starter.