GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
Now, now, in all fairness I think that actually should be Arca AND Alpa
(that just proved your point btw :ROTFL
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S2 Impressions: A year later.
- Thread starter fotografz
- Start date
(that just proved your point btw :ROTFL
Here's a related question:Dont worry Mike - no one holds any grudges in here - part fo the charm of the place is the great variety of characters and points of view.:talk028:
However you do get some polarised discussion whenever you see the following 'trigger words'
Leica ( anything about them)
Phase One ( you arent allowed to citicise them )
Hasselblad they are ok but not as good as Phase One
Professional
Hobbyist
then you have the hard liners ( its about the photo Taliban) who think photography is about the photo versus anyone else who thinks it is about the process and the journey
:ROTFL:
Cheers
Pete
Why did each of us get into photography?
Was it the making of photographs, the end result, or was it an excuse to have gear
?I know one can't happen without the other, but the question is ... what was the reason to do it in the first place?
Each of us has a different relationship to photography ... no one is actually like minded except in the most general way.
Some approach it like Golf, and the true game is against themselves. Process and journey is important.
For others, nothing much matters except the idea and the resulting photo.
And for others yet, it is a bit of all of the above.
I'm sort of the "Taliban type." If I could attach a device to my noggin, and what I dream up could appear as an image I'd be just fine with that. The process for me is creating or finding the idea.
Early on in my advertising career I was working as a designer and illustrator. Then it dawned on me that coming up with the idea was a better way to go. Not many could come up with ideas out of thin air, where a host of people could craft it and execute it once the idea was born. Trouble was the ideas would sometimes dissipate as more and more thumb prints were added.
I got into photography to make photographs ... to close up the gap between thinking and the end result. Digital was a gift from heaven for me. A couple of steps extracted from all the stuff in-between the two. I don't miss Magic Marker rendering and hand painting headlines for ad layouts either.
That is what gear evaluations mean to me ... investigating the straightest and shortest line between the two points.
-Marc
J
jlehrer
Guest
I'm happy to chime in here since I think I can shed some light on the "professional" market aspect of the S2. David and I work with a number of professional photographers who have purchased the S-system, along with those who rent, and professional rental studios all over the USA to facilitate sub-rentals and purchases. We have two rental kits that are perpetually in use, sometimes by those who making a living with photography, and sometimes by those who don't. We do not discriminate, we love photography and are happy to share our passion with anyone who will listen.
The reality is the large majority of our clients who make their living as full time photographers do not post on forums, simply due to the fact that they are busy individuals...often times we work exclusively with their assistants and studio managers, even when a large purchase is involved.
There are a lot more Leica S2 cameras out there than people realize, but in the end the number of users is not related in any way to how those users are feeling about their investment in the system. Since David and I work directly with many users, we've seen just about every bug and quirk that the system has had to offer since day 1. Any individual who has worked with us in the past knows that a quick call to one of our cell phones can usually solve any issue they have, whether it is a simple setting adjustment or requires a temporary loaner camera to be overnighted to them so they can continue to shoot until a resolution is reached.
To make a long story short...I can say with absolute certainty that the S-system has not flopped or fluked or flubbed. Have there been bugs? Definitely! Is it expensive? Depends on who you ask. But is it a precision instrument designed to make amazing images and offer a fantastic user experience? Without a doubt.
Josh
Dale Photo & Digital
The reality is the large majority of our clients who make their living as full time photographers do not post on forums, simply due to the fact that they are busy individuals...often times we work exclusively with their assistants and studio managers, even when a large purchase is involved.
There are a lot more Leica S2 cameras out there than people realize, but in the end the number of users is not related in any way to how those users are feeling about their investment in the system. Since David and I work directly with many users, we've seen just about every bug and quirk that the system has had to offer since day 1. Any individual who has worked with us in the past knows that a quick call to one of our cell phones can usually solve any issue they have, whether it is a simple setting adjustment or requires a temporary loaner camera to be overnighted to them so they can continue to shoot until a resolution is reached.
To make a long story short...I can say with absolute certainty that the S-system has not flopped or fluked or flubbed. Have there been bugs? Definitely! Is it expensive? Depends on who you ask. But is it a precision instrument designed to make amazing images and offer a fantastic user experience? Without a doubt.
Josh
Dale Photo & Digital
PeterA
Well-known member
Good question Marc - and probably deserves its own thread - certainly deserves a fine bottle of Aussie red a fireplace a couple of relaxing chairs and a couple of Cohibas...
I have to say that I come at photography from a different motivational set. I prefer to capture what is there in front of my face - and the only design or idea thinking I do is adressing a preference for interesting composition and light -my own definitions of interesting btw. My preference set is for documentary work and perhaps some whimsical liking for traditional reportage - purely because I like the genre.
As for gear if itsnt beautiful and it doesn't feel good in the hand I have absolutely no interest in it - irrepsective any superiority it may provide over my aesthetic preference. This is a hard line design bias which I am happy to fess up to.
Photography for me is a pure journey with no expectations. I think of it as a pleasant walk with the camera being a favourite pair of shoes - if I get a nice photo I do and if I dont - either way it doesnt matter anything to me.
I think I understand people who liek to make photos to sell to other people - I think I do - but for me the notion has never been on my agenda. As I have said on other occassions there are far easier ways to make a buck.
As for art - well there again I am agnostic - I do collect photographs because I liek them or the photographer but I dont 'invest' in photography. I certainly dont consider what I do with a camera to be art - my creativity is in the trades I put on every day for work or the perfect 5 iron draw around the trees landing softly on the green and setting up a nice birdie
Pete
I have to say that I come at photography from a different motivational set. I prefer to capture what is there in front of my face - and the only design or idea thinking I do is adressing a preference for interesting composition and light -my own definitions of interesting btw. My preference set is for documentary work and perhaps some whimsical liking for traditional reportage - purely because I like the genre.
As for gear if itsnt beautiful and it doesn't feel good in the hand I have absolutely no interest in it - irrepsective any superiority it may provide over my aesthetic preference. This is a hard line design bias which I am happy to fess up to.
Photography for me is a pure journey with no expectations. I think of it as a pleasant walk with the camera being a favourite pair of shoes - if I get a nice photo I do and if I dont - either way it doesnt matter anything to me.
I think I understand people who liek to make photos to sell to other people - I think I do - but for me the notion has never been on my agenda. As I have said on other occassions there are far easier ways to make a buck.
As for art - well there again I am agnostic - I do collect photographs because I liek them or the photographer but I dont 'invest' in photography. I certainly dont consider what I do with a camera to be art - my creativity is in the trades I put on every day for work or the perfect 5 iron draw around the trees landing softly on the green and setting up a nice birdie
Pete
Pete, GetDpi needs to do a webinar someday so such discussions don't take 10 days to develop. :ROTFL:Good question Marc - and probably deserves its own thread - certainly deserves a fine bottle of Aussie red a fireplace a couple of relaxing chairs and a couple of Cohibas...
I have to say that I come at photography from a different motivational set. I prefer to capture what is there in front of my face - and the only design or idea thinking I do is adressing a preference for interesting composition and light -my own definitions of interesting btw. My preference set is for documentary work and perhaps some whimsical liking for traditional reportage - purely because I like the genre.
As for gear if itsnt beautiful and it doesn't feel good in the hand I have absolutely no interest in it - irrepsective any superiority it may provide over my aesthetic preference. This is a hard line design bias which I am happy to fess up to.
Photography for me is a pure journey with no expectations. I think of it as a pleasant walk with the camera being a favourite pair of shoes - if I get a nice photo I do and if I dont - either way it doesnt matter anything to me.
I think I understand people who liek to make photos to sell to other people - I think I do - but for me the notion has never been on my agenda. As I have said on other occassions there are far easier ways to make a buck.
As for art - well there again I am agnostic - I do collect photographs because I liek them or the photographer but I dont 'invest' in photography. I certainly dont consider what I do with a camera to be art - my creativity is in the trades I put on every day for work or the perfect 5 iron draw around the trees landing softly on the green and setting up a nice birdie
Pete
I truly think we all are enthusiast at heart here ... even if some do it for pay. It's a matter of emphasis. Actually, if I relied on wedding photography to pay my gear bill I'd still be shooting with a 6 meg crop frame Canon
Selling photos to other people isn't just about money ... frankly at my stage of life, I don't need the money (but I like it to buy more expressive toys). It is giving someone art ... often art about them. The high minded look down on wedding photography as some sort of hack pursuit, but for me it is a creative challenge to buck that underdog position, with results that become part of a family's history. If I succeed in transcending the expected, then the results ARE recognized and become something precious to those people that they strive to preserve. I've been doing this long enough to have proved this out.
I also think the "idea" notion is often misunderstood. An idea need not just be a blue-print for a structured photo ... although it can be and often is.
My Pal Irakly is far less of a spontaneous shooter compared to me. Almost all of his great work by necessity is pre-thought and planned out ... similar to Cindy Sherman's art, or most top advertising shooters.
An idea to me is frequently more plastic in nature ... an attitude or notion as to the nature of what I'm about to do, and a flexibility when shooting to take advantage of opportunity when it presents itself. While shooting something beautiful is an admirable goal, that in itself lost it's luster for me ages ago. I am far more interested now in the underlying idea, some substance or content that transcends just a well crafted piece. It's a pretty hard challenge, and I wish I had come to this realization sooner.
-Marc
doug
Well-known member
So I could show others what I see. Initially the gear was a big draw (I'm a mechanical engineer) but as I've gotten crustier over the years the gear has become more of a neccesary evil. The stuff has to be bought, maintained, stored when not in use, and disposed of when it's no longer useful. I have to test and try lots of stuff to decide which hardware is the most intuitive path between what I see and the print. I've tried at least two dozen wildlife-capable lenses while figuring out what works for me and what doesn't.Here's a related question:
Why did each of us get into photography?
Was it the making of photographs, the end result, or was it an excuse to have gear
I'll now use the least & simplest hardware needed. I could probably do fine with just one lens (280 APO), a 1.4x extender and an extension tube, on a camera with straightforward manual controls. The rest of the stuff gets in my way more often than it helps me.
PeterA
Well-known member
My friends used to be bothered by me and my camera always snapping away. After a while they became relaxed around Pete and his camera - I am now officially allowed to be as pokey as I like. Over time these people became fascinated to see how they are depicted and how a photograph via post processing can be made to look what they call interesting. At first most didnt understand my interest in what appeared to be random snaps on the street. Over time they have come to really like looking for what is interesting in these apparently random shots.
After ten years of doing this documentary type work I have a slideshow which I can run with music I have made which pretty much goes through family, friends, occassions, public events, political events, street events hundreds of individual random shots all of a sudden coming together to show a wider connectedness.
This slideshow is a great photo album recording the change and evolution of a family and friends circle within a wider social context.
This is why I make photos to record my 'real' world as I see it.
So I totally understand wedding and social photography - and why I have always liked the idea of a documentary approach in these events.
I also understand Doug's photography and his wildlife. To me this is another type of documentary photography and brings a wilder reality to people. I used to go shooting with a few friends - we have serious wild pig issues in Australia and tehy have t be regularly culled in farms - Doug's photography reminds me of aspects of hunting - sans bullets.
Each of these activites requires a different set of tools with some overlapping and some very different skill set requirements.
The gear is an enabling tool or not.
The 'art' side for me is about how does the photo 'engage' an audience - without sacrificing integrity of subject matter. And my subject matter is about documentng and depicting 'ordinary' life - without the glamour.
So an S2 is like a CaNikon for me except with more megapixels and better glass - same as Hasselblad or Mamiya etc - but in a better ergonomic package. It wont replace an M9 but it would be easier to use than the other MF systems in hand held form.
Pete
After ten years of doing this documentary type work I have a slideshow which I can run with music I have made which pretty much goes through family, friends, occassions, public events, political events, street events hundreds of individual random shots all of a sudden coming together to show a wider connectedness.
This slideshow is a great photo album recording the change and evolution of a family and friends circle within a wider social context.
This is why I make photos to record my 'real' world as I see it.
So I totally understand wedding and social photography - and why I have always liked the idea of a documentary approach in these events.
I also understand Doug's photography and his wildlife. To me this is another type of documentary photography and brings a wilder reality to people. I used to go shooting with a few friends - we have serious wild pig issues in Australia and tehy have t be regularly culled in farms - Doug's photography reminds me of aspects of hunting - sans bullets.
Each of these activites requires a different set of tools with some overlapping and some very different skill set requirements.
The gear is an enabling tool or not.
The 'art' side for me is about how does the photo 'engage' an audience - without sacrificing integrity of subject matter. And my subject matter is about documentng and depicting 'ordinary' life - without the glamour.
So an S2 is like a CaNikon for me except with more megapixels and better glass - same as Hasselblad or Mamiya etc - but in a better ergonomic package. It wont replace an M9 but it would be easier to use than the other MF systems in hand held form.
Pete
Peter-
Do you have an S2 or have you held one? Got mine and I must say after really using it for a bit vs just holding in a store, the ergonomics don't seem worlds apart from Hassy/Phase. Overall the size and weight is very comparable, but of course the Leica has faster glass and feels better built.
I agree with Guy (I think it was Guy) about the S2 handgrip too - it's big on the bottom and narrower at the top, so you have to clench your fingers more than I'd like to keep it in your hand. With Hassy the grip is great - puts the weight on your wrist - but Hassy is more unbalanced to the side.
I'm loving the S2 so far, but need to take more time to compare S2 and Hassy lens performance. I also had no show-stopping issues in a few hours of use today.
Travis
Do you have an S2 or have you held one? Got mine and I must say after really using it for a bit vs just holding in a store, the ergonomics don't seem worlds apart from Hassy/Phase. Overall the size and weight is very comparable, but of course the Leica has faster glass and feels better built.
I agree with Guy (I think it was Guy) about the S2 handgrip too - it's big on the bottom and narrower at the top, so you have to clench your fingers more than I'd like to keep it in your hand. With Hassy the grip is great - puts the weight on your wrist - but Hassy is more unbalanced to the side.
I'm loving the S2 so far, but need to take more time to compare S2 and Hassy lens performance. I also had no show-stopping issues in a few hours of use today.
Travis
PeterA
Well-known member
Hi Travis,
I have only tested the camera for a few hours all hand held use which is what I want it for. It is very similar to the R8/9's I used to shoot with interms of how my hands 'fit'.
Interesting what you say about the ergonomics in hand.
I have an H system which I will keep for its leaf shutter advantages - but hand held I find that the grip is on the small side of comfort - placing (as you say) a lot of weight on the wrist - so making extended hand held use very problematic. I have had a Mamiya body and found the grip much much too small for my hands - effectively holding the camera with tips of fingers.
The hy6 I have has better balance but is a much heavier beast in hand - especially when you mount some of the larger glass like the 100 - although the inbuilt strap helps. I find the rotating handle to be a nice device but its sharper edges do take their toll after a while..
I intend to get an S2 with the multifunction bottom which pretty much gives me a larger version of an R9 which was teh 'perfect' fit for my hands.
Pete
I have only tested the camera for a few hours all hand held use which is what I want it for. It is very similar to the R8/9's I used to shoot with interms of how my hands 'fit'.
Interesting what you say about the ergonomics in hand.
I have an H system which I will keep for its leaf shutter advantages - but hand held I find that the grip is on the small side of comfort - placing (as you say) a lot of weight on the wrist - so making extended hand held use very problematic. I have had a Mamiya body and found the grip much much too small for my hands - effectively holding the camera with tips of fingers.
The hy6 I have has better balance but is a much heavier beast in hand - especially when you mount some of the larger glass like the 100 - although the inbuilt strap helps. I find the rotating handle to be a nice device but its sharper edges do take their toll after a while..
I intend to get an S2 with the multifunction bottom which pretty much gives me a larger version of an R9 which was teh 'perfect' fit for my hands.
Pete
Ben Rubinstein
Active member
Pete, if you get the grip you can get a hand strap. I tried David F's yesterday and it's sweet. I'm a hand strap guy but not ready to make the camera any larger with the grip. If it's mostly for hand held use you probably don't need the RRS L bracket but if you decide you want one you need to know which configuration (with/without grip) you'll end up with.
stephengilbert
Active member
Camdapter straps ate here: http://www.camdapter.com/handstrap/prostrap.html
You'll have to wait for Marc's input on the plate.
You'll have to wait for Marc's input on the plate.
GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
The BH1-L has the necessary mount point for a Camdapter strap. I use a similar mount from RRS on my 645DF with the strap - the important thing is the loop next to the bottom plate.
Mark Gowin
Member
I am not sure the BH1-L will work on the S2. A while back I called RRS to get the dimension from the mounting screw to lip and it seemed to be just a tad too short to fit the S2. The dimensions were close. I considered it may be possible to modify the mounting hole to make it work, but I didn't bother to give it a try.
cunim
Well-known member
Caution re the Camadaptor Arca plate. It is not the same as standard AS plates. A couple of months ago I got the strap and two of the Camadaptor AS adapters. They work fine in a screw-type AS clamp, but the ridge/groove areas seem to be too thick to slide into the flip clamp on my Cube - unless I loosen the clamp adjuster right off. That adjuster thumbwheel is a pain.
With the Cube flip clamp loosened, the Camadpator plate fits but, of course, my other AS plates are all too loose. Sort of kills the universal mounting plate convenience factor.
With the Cube flip clamp loosened, the Camadpator plate fits but, of course, my other AS plates are all too loose. Sort of kills the universal mounting plate convenience factor.