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Thread: High-end MFD

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    High-end MFD

    There have been many posts about Pro-sumer and middle-of-the range MF systems...

    This thread is for your advice and experience re 39Mpx + Multi-shot systems and 60 Mpx + single shot systems.

    ... what are the current and up-coming options, and what are their relative merits, especially for view-camera landscape and studio work?

    We have:
    Hasselblad 39MS, 50MS and 60
    Phase 65+
    Leaf 80
    Sinar 86H (48.8 Mpx MS)

    What else is there?
    What do you use, and what for?

    TIA

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    Re: High-end MFD

    The question is so broad it defies an answer that is less than three pages IMHO. What are you trying to accomplish and what is your budget?
    George T. Griswold, Jr.
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    Re: High-end MFD

    Where do you feel limited?

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    Re: High-end MFD

    I think I grasp the question.

    I currently have a Hasselblad CF/39 Multishot mounted to a H2F. I can mount it on my Rollei Xact-II view camera, also have a CF iAdapter for use on a Mamiya RZ system.

    It is primarily used tethered as Multi-Shot in studio for shooting various GM catalog shots, including fabric and leather seating swatches; all types of wheels and accessories. Also used for food photography, jewlery, location interior photography, and fashion clothes and swatches. With clip-on battery can be used in Single-Shot mode to a CF card for mobile outdoor location work, portraits ... including tech and view camera applications. With various iAdapters it can be used on any Medium Format camera.

    Unfortunately there are no plans for a CF/50 Multi-Shot. Only dedicated HD cameras offer the 50/MS.

    Hasselblad has announced work on a 200 meg four-step-module for the H4D/50 Multi-Shot. TBD.

    -Marc

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Hasselblad has announced work on a 200 meg four-step-module for the H4D/50 Multi-Shot. TBD.

    -Marc

    That will be a six-shot modus for the 200MP shot if I am not mistaken.

    I use a CF39MS/H2F for many things that don't move or move only limited. I now use 60MP for the rest.

    The 39MS still beats the 60 in pure IQ. If you need to set something free the 39MS is your friend. Much more than the 60 (even downsized to the same rez). I hate the fact that there is a 50MS out there

    BTW.. The 60 has absolutely gorgeous skintones! It will give Leaf a run for its money in that area.

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    Re: High-end MFD

    um...hijacking the thread a bit...Marc, may I ask how you feel about the XACT-2 compared to say Sinar P2. My Sinar dealer (duh!) opines that the Rollei is not precise enough for digital backs. Of course he is right that Rollei is now sans support, but Sinar is supported by none other than himself. Appreciate your views.

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    That will be a six-shot modus for the 200MP shot if I am not mistaken.

    I use a CF39MS/H2F for many things that don't move or move only limited. I now use 60MP for the rest.

    The 39MS still beats the 60 in pure IQ. If you need to set something free the 39MS is your friend. Much more than the 60 (even downsized to the same rez). I hate the fact that there is a 50MS out there

    BTW.. The 60 has absolutely gorgeous skintones! It will give Leaf a run for its money in that area.
    Thanks for the correction

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Quote Originally Posted by P. Chong View Post
    um...hijacking the thread a bit...Marc, may I ask how you feel about the XACT-2 compared to say Sinar P2. My Sinar dealer (duh!) opines that the Rollei is not precise enough for digital backs. Of course he is right that Rollei is now sans support, but Sinar is supported by none other than himself. Appreciate your views.
    Don't have a clue in comparison.

    I bought my Xact-2 from my Hassey dealer who sourced the Rollie for me. He previously was the head tech dude at a major studio in the our area that used all kinds of view cameras including the Rollei, and is a wizard at all this stuff. He set it all up and calibrated it for me ... including calibrating any lenses with shims if needed. It has a sliding back from Kapture Group whom I never even talked to ... he did it all and continues to do it all when-ever I add something to the kit.

    I think finding the Xact-2 camera and accessories isn't all that hard, but lens boards may be a bit more difficult ... not sure of that as I haven't tried as of late.

    -Marc

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    That will be a six-shot modus for the 200MP shot if I am not mistaken.

    I use a CF39MS/H2F for many things that don't move or move only limited. I now use 60MP for the rest.

    The 39MS still beats the 60 in pure IQ. If you need to set something free the 39MS is your friend. Much more than the 60 (even downsized to the same rez). I hate the fact that there is a 50MS out there

    BTW.. The 60 has absolutely gorgeous skintones! It will give Leaf a run for its money in that area.
    Oh, oh ... don't like hearing that my current CF/39 will beat the 60 in pure IQ. I was going to replace the 39/MS with a 60!

    Maybe I should switch the order to a H4D/50 M/S ....

    here we go again ...

    -Marc

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Well a MS back should always beat a single shot back if the difference between the pixel count isn't large enough. However, it has limited use and for outdoor work there really is nothing that comes close to nice 60 or now 80 MP in a single shot. I haven seen quite some Leaf stufff and it looks really great. Yes a MS on pixel level will look a little better, but than I just have to turn back to my wall and look at the 42inX50in print hanging on my wall done with 54Mp (cropped) and this is already very amazing.

    In the end I think it depends on what you shoot. That's all.

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Oh, oh ... don't like hearing that my current CF/39 will beat the 60 in pure IQ. I was going to replace the 39/MS with a 60!

    Maybe I should switch the order to a H4D/50 M/S ....

    here we go again ...

    -Marc
    I have traded in my regular CF39 for the 60. If I am going to trade in the 39MS it will definitely be for another multishot back.

    It all depends what you are going to use it for. Unfortunately all 3 models (40,50MS & 60) have distinct features that you would love to see in 1 model.

    I had a very hard time choosing between the 50MS & the 60 too. They both have the same pixel density, the 60 a somewhat larger sensor. In the end I went for the 60 because I planned on using that more for portrait/people work and I hoped Hasselblad would be able to get the same gorgeous skintones out of the Dalsa as Leaf is known for. It looks as if they succeeded. Had I wanted to go for something that handles products well and for stills I would definitely have gone for the 50MS.

    Indeed the better IQ of the multishot is on a per pixel basis. In print you might have a hard time telling them apart but when you need to make fine selections out of images you will love the multishot image because it will make your task so much easier.

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Thank you all for your comments.

    I have a Sinar P3 converted from a P2... I think this give me more movement (8cm each end in each direction), but I think the P3 standards has finer focusing?

    ¿Does anyone use Sinar, or have any info on the 86H?

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Well a MS back should always beat a single shot back if the difference between the pixel count isn't large enough. However, it has limited use and for outdoor work there really is nothing that comes close to nice 60 or now 80 MP in a single shot.

    In the end I think it depends on what you shoot. That's all.
    I will be photographing Harbours, (e.g. in Cornwall with old stone buildings) and the movement of the boats makes MS difficult - has anyone layered MS with single shot for this type of work?

    If you had a lens double the focal length, you could photograph a boat and re-sample and drop it in?

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    It all depends what you are going to use it for. Unfortunately all 3 models (40,50MS & 60) have distinct features that you would love to see in 1 model.

    I had a very hard time choosing between the 50MS & the 60 too.
    The 40 is a great tool for hand-held ambient, and it would be nice to have that in the 60, but I know many of you have have more than one MF back, and it is nice to have backs that complement each other... so 40, 50MS + 60 would be dream kit... but much capital tied up.

    One theory is to have several digibacks in an organization so that the digibacks can be used independently or for teamwork/backup.

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    has anyone layered MS with single shot for this type of work?

    If you had a lens double the focal length, you could photograph a boat and re-sample and drop it in?
    SOP with MS is to take a single shot image beforehand to brush in the parts of the single shot image into the parts of the multishot image that have movement. I have taken interior shots with moving people this way.

    MS using outdoors would be really challenging. There is a lot more movement in the world than you would think.

    On the second question. Yes you could do this though I believe it is easier to do a single shot with the same lens while having your setup bolted to a sturdy tripod. Sure you lose some IQ but you did not have this to begin with when you would be solely doing single shot.

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    I have traded in my regular CF39 for the 60. If I am going to trade in the 39MS it will definitely be for another multishot back.

    It all depends what you are going to use it for. Unfortunately all 3 models (40,50MS & 60) have distinct features that you would love to see in 1 model.

    I had a very hard time choosing between the 50MS & the 60 too. They both have the same pixel density, the 60 a somewhat larger sensor. In the end I went for the 60 because I planned on using that more for portrait/people work and I hoped Hasselblad would be able to get the same gorgeous skintones out of the Dalsa as Leaf is known for. It looks as if they succeeded. Had I wanted to go for something that handles products well and for stills I would definitely have gone for the 50MS.

    Indeed the better IQ of the multishot is on a per pixel basis. In print you might have a hard time telling them apart but when you need to make fine selections out of images you will love the multishot image because it will make your task so much easier.
    This is excellent input. I am going to investigate trading my H4D/40 toward the 60 rather than the CF/39 Multi-Shot. I do fabric shots and when shooting certain accessories and wheels bread&butter studio work, I have to knock out the backgrounds which often involves outlining at 300%, that became a lot easier when I moved up to a MS. 39MS is plenty for that work ... and the 60 would take all the rest to a new level.

    Thanks!

    -Marc

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    MS using outdoors would be really challenging. There is a lot more movement in the world than you would think.
    Daylight live view on the Sinar (with LC shutter) would help... and it gets more challenging if you are using the camera on a 10m tripod!

    ...OK in ideal conditions for speculative work, but not for non-repeatable shots I would need single shot as a back-up.

    You can get the res with pan and stitch, but it is not ideal for arch.

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Do any of you copy paintings or any flat copy?

    I would think that an MS would be an order of magnitude better for this due to the better pixel quality and the smaller file sizes for any given IQ requirement.

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    I will be photographing Harbours, (e.g. in Cornwall with old stone buildings) and the movement of the boats makes MS difficult - has anyone layered MS with single shot for this type of work?

    If you had a lens double the focal length, you could photograph a boat and re-sample and drop it in?

    Yes you could do this though I believe it is easier to do a single shot with the same lens while having your setup bolted to a sturdy tripod. Sure you lose some IQ but you did not have this to begin with when you would be solely doing single shot.


    With a view camera, you can leave the camera firmly bolted to a heavy tripod, and change lenses and select the moving object with shift/rise/fall, so you do not have to re-invent the perspective (and lose res) to drop in the higher-res object.

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post

    Yes you could do this though I believe it is easier to do a single shot with the same lens while having your setup bolted to a sturdy tripod. Sure you lose some IQ but you did not have this to begin with when you would be solely doing single shot.


    With a view camera, you can leave the camera firmly bolted to a heavy tripod, and change lenses and select the moving object with shift/rise/fall, so you do not have to re-invent the perspective (and lose res) to drop in the higher-res object.
    Yes, I know. That is the theory. The practice is that you will often introduce minor movement. Anyway, sure it can. You don't have to listen to someone that has tried both and simply has a fairly strong feeling what does work and what is kind of a PITA.

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    Yes, I know. That is the theory. The practice is that you will often introduce minor movement. Anyway, sure it can. You don't have to listen to someone that has tried both and simply has a fairly strong feeling what does work and what is kind of a PITA.
    Thanks, yes... I did not realize that you had tried it with a view camera.

    I appreciate that minor movements can screw things up... and that is one reason I am going for eShutters... and would like a powered remote hex-stitch back.

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Btw, I'm surprised that in this discussion of state of the art MFD that nobody has mentioned camera systems such as the RED Epic. Whilst it's not 60mp+ it does promise up to 18 stops of DR (and obviously the video capabilities too). I know that for many situations I'd happily give up resolution for DR and tonality.

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Quote Originally Posted by dick View Post
    There have been many posts about Pro-sumer and middle-of-the range MF systems...
    Dick,

    I'm kind of new to digital mf so forgive a dumb question, but what do you consider a "Pro-sumer" mf system? It just seems to me that any digital mf system that's even 4-5 years old will blow away any Canon or Nikon for professional studio photography in almost all cases. I'm understand pro-sumer gear in the dlsr world, but not in the digital mf world.

    "Middle of-the range MF sytems" I understand now that I have a Hasselblad H3dII-39 and four lenses.

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    Re: High-end MFD

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Btw, I'm surprised that in this discussion of state of the art MFD that nobody has mentioned camera systems such as the RED Epic. Whilst it's not 60mp+ it does promise up to 18 stops of DR (and obviously the video capabilities too). I know that for many situations I'd happily give up resolution for DR and tonality.
    Errrrr, ummmmm.....isn't the RED epic a full-frame 35mm format camera? Unless I'm mistaken, MFD stands for Medium format digital.......
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    Re: High-end MFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    Where do you feel limited?
    In front of a highly-detailed 3 meter * 4 meter medieval grand master painting, when I think:

    "How can I produce something better than that?"

    I like to think that I am into image creation...not just photography.

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