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Thread: Sinar Workflow

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    Sinar Workflow

    Thought I'd try to elicit some suggestions from those shooting with Sinar backs. It's not my intention to make this exclusive to Sinar users, just trying to clarify some things in my own mind and workflow. For starters, here's a screenshot of the Brumbaer software that I find myself using to convert the Sinar RAW's to DNG's. I honestly don't have a clue what the numbers shown in the cropped portion mean. These represent the default settings present when I installed it and I've left them alone. Anybody out there have occasion to change them... if so, how and why, please. Also, wonder if those of you using this program (or eXposure, for that matter) are saving your RAW files (.BR) in addition to your DNG's.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    David, did you ever get an image where the Brumbaer software did not properly convert your image, but the Sinar eXposure software did?

    I save all of my original files, more than one copy too,

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    David, did you ever get an image where the Brumbaer software did not properly convert your image, but the Sinar eXposure software did?
    Never happened to me.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    David,

    I don't know the software at all, but the D55 represents your lighting (daylight 5500) and I assume that you can pull down other options for cooler or warmer lighting and color casts. The detail numbers are what represents the color matrix for this lighting. Exactly how it is used to do the conversion is well beyond me.

    Best,

    Ray

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    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Quote Originally Posted by harmsr View Post
    David,

    I don't know the software at all, but the D55 represents your lighting (daylight 5500) and I assume that you can pull down other options for cooler or warmer lighting and color casts. The detail numbers are what represents the color matrix for this lighting. Exactly how it is used to do the conversion is well beyond me.
    I don't know how it works either but this much is correct. If you click on the pull down menu you can select the closest lighting conditions.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    David, did you ever get an image where the Brumbaer software did not properly convert your image, but the Sinar eXposure software did?

    I save all of my original files, more than one copy too,
    Interesting that you should ask that question Recently I took (yet another) shot of my backyard ferns. The late afternoon sun just lit up some yellow leaves like gold and I thought it might be worth trying to capture. Processed with Brumbaer I got some kind of funky green corruption along the stem of one of the leaves. Reprocessed in Exposure to see if it was a software issue and the image had no such corruption. First and only time I've seen this with Brumbaer which IMHO is fantastic software (in terms of ease of use and results) for converting the Sinar files. This one experience is, in part, what prompted this post. I thought perhaps one of my settings was off. I think the software has the capability to do color cast correction but haven't had occasion to need that yet.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    I have heard that the Brumbaer software has very aggressive highlight recovery...so aggressive that it is possible to experience something like you are describing.

    Funky corruption of the image typically happens when the raw converter computes a negative or NAN value for an interpolated pixel, and is my first guess as to what happened to you. A second possibility is to see if the color temperature was so off as to push your pixel data beyond the allowable values. You can try selecting other color matrix options in the preferences to see if that changes anything.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Good thoughts David... but I have not been saving my original files, rather considering the DNG's to be my RAW's. Maybe I need to rethink this, but I'm not anxious to incur even more storage requirements than I already have.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Good idea to start this thread David , I think this will help a lot of folks understand it better.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Good idea to start this thread David , I think this will help a lot of folks understand it better.
    Guy, I hope so as this program has been universally praised. Unfortunately the author is no longer supporting it and, as it's not a Sinar product, they don't either. The good news is that Exposure seems to do a fine job with the conversions.

  11. #11
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Dear David and others,

    I will try to explain as simply as possible (in fact it is bl..dy simple), what are the different features in the Brumbaer Converter based on the SW windows.
    But first I would like to ask you David, which version of Brumbaer you are using?

    1. Colour Matrices

    the window on the left side called "Color Matrices" is effectively the colour calibration which the converter uses. There are "default" calibrations stored which can be accessed and selected from the pull-down list (e.g. D55, corresponds to daylight 5500). It is usually a good starting point to use this D55 to get a good calibration. I would however suggest to creat your own colour calibration, and I have got the best results by doing it under a cloudy sky.

    As said, beside the default colour calibration matrices one can create one's own colour calibration matrices by means of a Macbeth colour chart. To do this click the ""Calib" button and follow the indications on screen, step by step. At the end you will have to save this calibration. The "Load" button is simply to choose/select those created colour calibrations.

    The second part of this "Color Matrices" allows basically to do simultaneously a second colour calibration, on top of the first one, and which is calculated into the file IN ADDITION to the first one on the top: it is supposed to give an even better result, but nobody uses it. Just leave it on "Ignore" and DON'T use it.

    2. Back specific Reference files

    Each back has its own reference files. When you use your back the first time it will load those reference files (from the internal memory of the eMotion) and place them into a specific folder from the Brumbaer converter ("Home" ---> "Library" ---> "Application Support" ----> "eMotionDng"). One can therefore use as many different backs as possible and the application will take automatically the right reference file which belongs to the back.

    The serial number of the back(s) used can be seen in this left window, on the far left side in tab and text reading from down to up, e.g. David's back has serial number 1320.

    3. White Reference

    The little rectangular window below the color matrices window is for the use of "White Shading" files. By default the converter will use the reference file delivered with each back. In case of colour casts due to shifts, tilts/swings, or due to lens or sensor fall-off, one can create a specific files called "white shading" and which corrects this colour casts and lens/sensor fall-offs.
    One can create, save and apply those "white shadings" and the converter has the unique ability to apply them in a batch process, automatically and on as many images you want/need.

    4. Drop-in Window

    The window in the top middle is used to drop (drag and drop) the raw files and start the conversion into DNG. As soon as file are dropped in, a bar below starts to become active (green), showing the progress. The window on the right side lists all the files to be converted and how many are left to be converted.

    5. Below the Drop-in window

    - Button to select the folder where the DNGs and RAWs (.IA and .BR files) files should be stored.

    - one can then choose or no to save also the RAWs (.IA and .BR files) ---> check(un-check the box.

    - "Keep structure" is what it says: will keep the structure of the files as they are.

    - "Overwrite": in case of converting again the files, allows to overwrite (and delete) the older DNGs or to keep those previous DNGs and apply a new name to the new ones.

    - "Logfile": I am not sure of the meaning of this one, but use it always un-clicked.

    - "Whitefile creation"

    Here can be applied a "Denoise": this has nothing to do with noise reduction in the image data. It is to denoise the white shading file. The white shading files are shot with a plexi-glass in front of the lens, thus need about 2 f-stops more light. Since one cannot change the aperture for the creation of this white shading, one has to exposure longer. Often this leads to an exposure time in the vicinity of a few seconds. This might add noise to the white shading, and if not eliminated (Denoise), this noise will be applied to the image date while the white shading correction is done: therefore this "Denoise" possibility of the "white shading" file(s).

    - "Vignetting"

    One has the possibility to correct lens vignetting by checking the box. Not all images show vignetting, mainly short focal length lenses.

    - "Image conversion"

    The "Destitch" feature is used when one has a centerfold issue in the file: this can happen with CCD sensors, giving usually a distinct line/separation, mostly in the middle of the image. It is too long to explain this in detail here, but basically it is due to the way the light signal/information is read out from the sensor. ALL digital backs can show this effect, under certain light conditions. By checking this box the converter will automatically correct this effect.

    - "Preview"

    nothing special to explain here.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

  12. #12
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Most probably the second reason is the one: choice of the wrong colour calibration.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    I have heard that the Brumbaer software has very aggressive highlight recovery...so aggressive that it is possible to experience something like you are describing.

    Funky corruption of the image typically happens when the raw converter computes a negative or NAN value for an interpolated pixel, and is my first guess as to what happened to you. A second possibility is to see if the color temperature was so off as to push your pixel data beyond the allowable values. You can try selecting other color matrix options in the preferences to see if that changes anything.

  13. #13
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Stefan Hess is supporting his Brumbaer DNG Converter until the end of 2008.

    After that it will still be usable, with the current existing backs, as it is, and as long Sinar is not changing anything in the file's structure.

    So there is no "unfortunately", since those with eMotion backs can use it at Vitam Eternam. And it is a freeware which is so simple and easy of use, that it is very unlikely one needs support.

    But yes, Sinar eXposure is doing as well a wonderful DNG conversion.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Guy, I hope so as this program has been universally praised. Unfortunately the author is no longer supporting it and, as it's not a Sinar product, they don't either. The good news is that Exposure seems to do a fine job with the conversions.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Thierry,
    Many, many thanks for this thorough explanation, perhaps now I will be able to use this software to it's full potential instead of simply using the defaults. To answer your question I am using Version 1.45 of the software.

  15. #15
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    You're welcome, David.

    The better, I'm using an older 1.44 beta 3!

    Cheers,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Thierry,
    Many, many thanks for this thorough explanation, perhaps now I will be able to use this software to it's full potential instead of simply using the defaults. To answer your question I am using Version 1.45 of the software.

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    rainer-v
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    i strongly suggest to use at least one white kalibration if using brumbaer. results are 100% better than without. if you use just one for all lenses best is to make with a medium focal length as 80 or 100mm at f16 the "standard" white reference file.

    try to apply color calibrations several times, the interpretation of the color ref. file might not be the same each time, they can differ a lot. make e.g. three calibrations ( all with the same color checker file ) and select the one you like more. this results from roundings of the algorythm and can be seen in other softwares too.

  17. #17
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Hi Rainer!

    Just for the information of all here: Rainer is THE specialist of the Brumbaer DNG Converter, since he has developed it together with Stefan.

    Who better than him can give advices?

    Thanks Rainer,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by rainer-v View Post
    i strongly suggest to use at least one white kalibration if using brumbaer. results are 100% better than without. if you use just one for all lenses best is to make with a medium focal length as 80 or 100mm at f16 the "standard" white reference file.

    try to apply color calibrations several times, the interpretation of the color ref. file might not be the same each time, they can differ a lot. make e.g. three calibrations ( all with the same color checker file ) and select the one you like more. this results from roundings of the algorythm and can be seen in other softwares too.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Thank you for your excellent advice and sharing your experience.
    Yevgeny

    Quote Originally Posted by rainer-v View Post
    i strongly suggest to use at least one white kalibration if using brumbaer. results are 100% better than without. if you use just one for all lenses best is to make with a medium focal length as 80 or 100mm at f16 the "standard" white reference file.

    try to apply color calibrations several times, the interpretation of the color ref. file might not be the same each time, they can differ a lot. make e.g. three calibrations ( all with the same color checker file ) and select the one you like more. this results from roundings of the algorythm and can be seen in other softwares too.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Hi Rainer and thank for chiming in. I do remember reading of your involvement with Stefan over on the LL forum and have seen several postings of your excellent architectural work which inspired me to visit your web site. Your work is remarkable. I will certainly try to follow your advice which is especially appreciated since this information is not readily available elsewhere (at least not that I could find).

  20. #20
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    For those interested in architecture photography at its highest level (IMHO):

    www.tangential.de

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    ... your excellent architectural work which inspired me to visit your web site. Your work is remarkable.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Hi Rainer,
    good to see you here on this Forum.
    There are a lot of USA Sinar"folks" that need some PRO support.
    Regards,
    Willem.

  22. #22
    rainer-v
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    although i enjoy sharing things i know, its difficult to be active in more than one forum for me because it eats so much time......, so my presence here will not be very contant.
    but sometimes i like to jump in with some comment.... thank you all for the very nice words.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    I spent most of the day yesterday with Steve Hendrix and Dave McRitchie from Sinar in Orlando yesterday to pick up my new replacement back and get a little tutoring in Exposure software. Thought I'd share my initial impressions of the back and some insights I got with respect to Exposure. First off, the revolving adapter is sweet... works like a charm and obviates the need to remove the back in order to switch to portrait orientation. This is particularly important when shooting with WLF as rotating the camera is not a viable option. Second, I had a chance to look thru the new 45 degree finder. Let's just say I ordered it on the spot. It's probably the brightest prism finder I've ever used. The 90 degree finder wasn't available for inspection but for the way I like to hand hold this camera (left hand underneath for support), the 45 suits me better. Also, the 90 degree finder is similar to the WLF in that the image is reversed and even though I've gotten accustomed to working that way I prefer it not to be. On to the back itself. The screen is larger which is very nice since it makes the menu items so much easier to read, especially with the increased resolution. It's still nowhere near what you get with the Nikon D3 but it's a very significant improvement from the older screen. It also seems to be much quicker in displaying the menu items probably due to some upgraded electronics that Thierry mentioned. I did a quick and dirty ISO 800 test and compared one image taken from the old back and one from the new but the test was poorly done and, frankly, I'm not much interested in opening that discussion again. I'll try it at my leisure at higher ISO's another time. As far as Exposure goes, Dave McRitchie opened my eyes to what this software is capable of doing and gave me a bit of a different insight into what it is and isn't designed to do. Shooting tethered with Exposure via Live View is amazing. I don't have a frame of reference to compare it to other software which does the same so can't make any comparisons. I will say that it's not intended to be a substitute for Lightroom, Aperture, or Photoshop. It's more RAW conversion, tethered shooting software and what it does, it does well. Steve and Dave were great to spend time with and they really know their stuff. Had the pleasure of meeting Jim Stone and Ben Tanner while there. Always nice to be able to put a face to a name that you've seen online.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Back up how much trouble did Jim get into. LOL

    Sounds better David glad you got the new back.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Jim is on the brink... I was afraid to sneeze for fear of pushing him over BTW, an added treat at this studio presentation was getting to see the Broncolor Para in action. I've read about this online but never saw one up close and personal. This thing is just freaking amazing !!!!!!! Out of the question for me to buy one (size, weight and price) but the new Mobil A2R may wind up in my kit. Surprisingly affordable for Broncolor and I really love the petite size of the head.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    I may want your ranger elincrons
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Guy,

    We had a good time meeting Steve and David and picking their brains. Like David, Guy, I really like the Schneider glass and the HY6, but will await his continued testing (and hopefully Sinar will listen to improve a number of things on the camera) before deciding on a camera path. Steve did a great job of demonstrating the camera and software. Many thanks to him for that. So while I may be on the brink, I'll "try" to stay on the edge until Photokina. The one sure thing is the Alpa.

    But Guy, you've heard that before and told me NOT to bite that hook ! Of course as usual I'm not listening, but YOU will already have swallowed it !! So will hear all about it now from both you and Peter !


    Jim

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Jim,

    Looks like there are a coupel of other Alpa shooters who haev become forum members now..I am sure Guy will suddenly discover the ultimate wide angle shooters machine - when he gets his Alpa!! LOL
    I will bet - that ALL MFD back users on here - will ultimately end up with an Alpa or equivalent in their kit.
    The Schenider/Rodenstock lenses are that good.

    Not a dumb idea to start with Alpa actually - you may not need anything else for your MFD back - just make sure you get a full frame version of a back - so you get to use the lenses without being cropped into silliness.

    No camera has ever given me so much simple pleasure.

    Pete

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    The Alpa really has me thinking . Just waiting for Lance to figure it all out for me with price and such.I also asked him to come up with a nice TC package for forum members here. I think there are some things you don't need on them and save some money. One is the external finder from Alpa is 1200 dollars , you could buy the Horseman for half that. Or like we use on the M8 the Zeiss 25/28 external finder . My worry there is you can get your face over the back to see okay. Have some answers next week on what I am going to do. It is between this and a Mamiya 28 but I know the Alpa solution is overall better optics
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    I think Peter's probably right on the money that more than a few will wind up with Alpa. I've had my eye out for a used kit and they're pretty rare.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    The thing that has kept me away from adding an Alpa TC to my kit is the focus guesstimation. It seems like such a shame to have such fantastic optics placed in front of a MFDB, and then have to guess at proper focusing.

    I wouldn't mind a rangefinder finder whose distance information I manually transfer to the lens or some such... Have I missed something? What types of shooting do the Alpa folks out there do (or plan to do)?

    Best regards,
    Brad

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Bradley, you are correct. For untethered critical focusing with the Alpa, you can focus on ground glass, using a loupe, and swap in your back for the shot. I believe with the Hasselblad V mount, you can use their reflex finder, but am not sure such an option exists for other mounts. Of course, the Alpa is great for infinity work or especially when you can shoot tethered to ensure that you actually get the shot correct. I also think some of the Leaf back users are able to use those large 6x7 screens to assist focusing in the field, but it still requires some trial and error.

    I think a lot of architectural shooters like to use the Alpa, as do folks who need to create larger images by stitching, using the larger image circles of the lenses that are available for it. It is not exactly the tool of choice for fashion, wedding or event photography. However, as a fine art photographer, you might like to add it to your arsenal.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    The Alpa viewfinder is worth every cent - to me anyway.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    A question came up about the difference between the Brumbaer and Exposure conversions so i thought I'd take the same file and process it twice. The appearance of the files is quite different but I'm quite sure both files can be processed to look identical. Nevertheless, I prefer the Brumbaer starting point, at least for this file. No adjustments to these files whatsoever, just converted to TIFF's in Aperture and resized in CS3.

  35. #35
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Looks like the color temp changed to cooler in the bottom one and actually maybe correct . Looks to me like a 400 kelvin shift. David can you tell if that happens with the different converters
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    The Alpa viewfinder is worth every cent - to me anyway.
    I did NOT need you to say that. LOL Trying to avoid that 1200 dollars. I actually bout a Zeiss 25/28 finder from the M8 . i will try that first. lenses are what may kill my Alpa purchase.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Looks like the color temp changed to cooler in the bottom one and actually maybe correct . Looks to me like a 400 kelvin shift. David can you tell if that happens with the different converters
    Aperture indicates that the Brumbaer conversion has a lower temp than the Exposure version but it doesn't look that way to me. Looks like a different profile and reminds me of the Joseph Holmes profiles that I've used in the past.

  38. #38
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    David,

    it all depends with WHICH "Color Matrix" you have processed this in Brumbaer.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by David K View Post
    Aperture indicates that the Brumbaer conversion has a lower temp than the Exposure version but it doesn't look that way to me. Looks like a different profile and reminds me of the Joseph Holmes profiles that I've used in the past.

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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Quite right Thierry, these were with the D55 setting. I think I'll explore some of the others next time.

  40. #40
    rainer-v
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    with the wides as the 24/28/35mm lenses sometimes the brumbaer conversion overcorrect the falloff of the images, although the white references of this are 100% correct ( i see this effect in your image ).

    it looks as this appears because the light hits the sensor or the lense in another angle if using the diffusor than later with the real shot.
    in this cases i make two conversions. one with vignetting correction "on" and a second one with vignetting correction "off" ( you have to write two sets of whiteref files therefor ).
    if i layer this two shots i can blend the vignetting to the desired amount in photoshop.
    the results are looking much better than with the "normal" software vignetting- plugin tools in postpro or in the raw konverters.

  41. #41
    Workshop Member
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Rainer, thanks for your contribution it's always good to have advice from an experienced user. I will try to incorporate your suggestions into my workflow but suspect that I also need to train my eye to see what you see in an image.

  42. #42
    Fred Ragland
    Guest

    Re: Sinar Workflow

    I've just returned from a trip that included some of the world's newest, most visually exciting airports. Two of these are the new Beijing and Bangkok airports. Rainer's portfolio of the Bangkok airport is exceptional and made all the more awesome when you see and understand the challenges he had to overcome. Thierry is not alone in considering him among the world's top architectural photographers.

    Best wishes,
    Fred

  43. #43
    thsinar
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    hi Fred,

    Like you, I just came back from Beijing, and yes, the new airport (terminal) is a jewel for photographers.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Ragland View Post
    I've just returned from a trip that included some of the world's newest, most visually exciting airports. Two of these are the new Beijing and Bangkok airports. Rainer's portfolio of the Bangkok airport is exceptional and made all the more awesome when you see and understand the challenges he had to overcome. Thierry is not alone in considering him among the world's top architectural photographers.

    Best wishes,
    Fred

  44. #44
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    Re: Sinar Workflow

    I've been trough the Bangkok airport a few times now and I can assure you that Rainer did wonders with the photography.
    It certainly isn't as good looking as on his fabulous images!
    Well done Rainer!
    Cheers,
    Willem.

  45. #45
    thsinar
    Guest

    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Agreed!

    After a few months of use, this airport looks already very old, and in fact it was NEVER even finished and "clean": tiles broken/stained everywhere, chrome handrails/decoration stained with fingerprints/stains everywhere, spider webs, lack of maintenance visible all over the structures, etc ...: It's hurting the eyes, when seeing such (and I see it often) for all those seeing this "new" airport live, and one can only wonder how the images came out that perfect.

    When comparing the new Beijing airport, one can see the differences in the finish: all's clean, perfect, finished, and looks great. A pity that Rainer did not shoot this one!

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Rethmeier View Post
    I've been trough the Bangkok airport a few times now and I can assure you that Rainer did wonders with the photography.
    It certainly isn't as good looking as on his fabulous images!
    Well done Rainer!
    Cheers,
    Willem.

  46. #46
    rainer-v
    Guest

    Re: Sinar Workflow

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Agreed!

    After a few months of use, this airport looks already very old, and in fact it was NEVER even finished and "clean": tiles broken/stained everywhere, chrome handrails/decoration stained with fingerprints/stains everywhere, spider webs, lack of maintenance visible all over the structures, etc ...: It's hurting the eyes, when seeing such (and I see it often) for all those seeing this "new" airport live, and one can only wonder how the images came out that perfect.

    When comparing the new Beijing airport, one can see the differences in the finish: all's clean, perfect, finished, and looks great. A pity that Rainer did not shoot this one!

    Thierry
    a year before the opening of beijing i was asked to realize a similar shoot there than i did in bangkok, but permits have not been granted by government. never understood completely why ... maybe its china too.

  47. #47
    thsinar
    Guest

    Re: Sinar Workflow

    well, coming back from Beijing, I can tell that security is very tight, and this since months now: no 1-year multi-entry visas are granted anymore, taking pictures of buildings/spots is strictly forbidden/censored, etc ...

    I was on a 8-lanes highway and we stopped at a rest area. There was a bridge over the road with a 100 meters billboard from one side to the other. I took out my Lumix to take a shot of it, and it took about 15 seconds until a soldier came to me. He wanted first to take my camera. After 2 minutes of discussions with my Chinese friend, he agreed that I can delete the taken shots. I did as if deleting and had to show him by going through the internal storage (I did shoot them in another folder, so could "save" them!). My friend told me that if I would not have agreed to "delete", they would have taken me away to the army station.

    3 days ago I wanted to take some snapshots from the new "Birdnet" stadium in Beijing. I walked around it and it was surrounded by tight security: impossible to take a single shot. I could take one from the room of my hotel, through the window, but that's it, a very rough idea of what it is.

    So yes, the Chinese are a bit over-sensitive on the subject, the least one can say.

    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by rainer-v View Post
    a year before the opening of beijing i was asked to realize a similar shoot there than i did in bangkok, but permits have not been granted by government. never understood completely why ... maybe its china too.

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