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MF street shooter pack?

PeterA

Well-known member
Re another approach - one can use anything one likes to use. I have shot with Leica M, Canon and Nikon for years. Film & digital - a lot of great street work is also done with Large Format as well as phone cams ...

there are no rules, magic pills or silver bullets... - the photographer makes his/her own rules use what comes naturally to you.

Each system delivers something different - and then you can get into the whole discussion about what is 'street' - which is a doom loop anyway LOL
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Very interesting discussion here folks. We are thinking outside the box and that is good.The Alpha serves several things like the Horseman and Cambo sliding backs . The one sure thing is you get to use the best lenses ever made for digital. I like my Horseman alot but this also gives me something I did not think about and that is a walk about MF camera.
 

sc_john

Active member
I shoot an Alpa 12SWA with a P45+ (and P25 before that). Lenses are Schneider Digitar 35, 47, 80. Regarding focusing, the 35 is easiest with hyperfocal settings on lens (however, you have to adjust for smaller CofC for digital back vs film... DoF scale on lens is calibrated for film. A good DoF calculator with specific setting for P45 back can be found here... http://www.stegmann.dk/mikkel/barnack/). It is hard to miss with 35mm Digitar, given the dof. The 47mm is a bit more demanding, but guesstimating still works well for me. I also use laser range finder, if necessary, to confirm distance guesstimates for 47mm. Regarding 80mm, I use gg back to focus or a Hasselblad right angle finder that can be mounted via Alpa V-mount adapter. After focusing 80mm, I attach the digital back and shoot. I also generally shoot 80mm on tripod.

I agree with comments about the quality of these lenses... they are superb. Also agree with the comments about hand-holdable nature of Alpa and silent operation, Alpa/Digitar is quieter than M4 or 6... M8 is like a rifle shot, in comparison. Regarding the need for wake-up signal for Phase backs, Capture integration has a great wake-up cable that is relatively inexpensive (see"Primary Synch Wake-up Cable: http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/custom-products/). Alpa also makes a special wake-up handle for Phase backs, but it is expensive.

Another plus for Alpa, based on my personal experience, is that the owners are the extremely responsive in answering questions, discussing issues, etc. Send them an e-mail, and they will respond quickly; I've even had an on-going e-mail exchange with them at 8-9PM Switzerland time (their home time zone). I haven't experienced that level of responsiveness with any other camera support sites.
 

Woody Campbell

Workshop Member
Brad i am working on this right NOW . LOL

I came up with a neat idea that already exists but with a few modifications to save money and come up with a P&S MF back. I'm probably going to sell my Horseman sliding back with finder and get this Alpa 12 TC idea instead. Getting prices now

I just don't do a lot of stitching and shifting so this makes better sense for me because I like to shoot street
Brad - I'm a great advocate of using equipment for other than its intended purpose - I've been using an M8 as an MF for a year plus by stitching. The light weight and mobility are fabulous. On the subject of using MF for street my limited experience, however, suggests some caution - you might consider renting or borrowing first. Here are the issues:

1. Camera choice - I agree with Guy that the Alpa 12 TC is the better choice than the Horseman in this application, but you won't be getting a two for one (if you're interested in view camera movements) because the Alpa has very limited movements. Its advantage is that it's more compact and lighter.

2. Lens choice. You have to go wide here because you'll be using zone focus or hyperfocus - you'll need all of the depth of field you can get. Wide works for my shooting style so I tried doing a hand-held walk around with my Horseman, a 35mm Rodenstock Digitar and a Hasselblad 39 back. I practiced with rocks, trees, furniture, pictures and other inanimate objects, as well as my long-suffering wife, to try to get a sense of how the combination works. I decided not to tackle the streets of New York with this unfamiliar combination.

3. Color shift. As a result of 2 (shooting with a wide) you need to deal with color shift. I found that a single reference "flat frame" shot at the beginning of the session did the trick. Of course this doesn't matter if you're shooting for B&W.

4. Depth of field. This is the key issue. Sean Reid has done a great job of educating us to the fact that small sensor cameras have greater depth of field than you would expect. The converse is also true: large sensor cameras have less depth of field than you would expect - in the case of the H 39 back, much less.

5. Limited f stop selection. One of the consequences of item 4 is that you probably can't consistently shoot faster than f8 or f11: depth of field is just too narrow to deal with close and moving objects. On the other hand you can't really stop down to f16 or a higher numbers to help on the focus issue because the effect of diffraction degrading sharpness becomes very obvious - at large f numbers the back provides dramatically better resolution than the lens can deliver. The Rodenstock's sweet spot appears to be about f8.

6. Focus. As a result 4 and 5 focus is hit or miss. Try this yourself: put your widest lens on your MF, set it at f8 and manual focus and exposure, lock the mirror up and walk around shooting every-day objects based on zone focusing. Most of my shots were at least somewhat out of focus. You can probably do better.

7. Poor low light ability. Because of item 5 above you can't open beyond f8 and my back limits me to ISO 400. This means that in an urban setting even in daylight you will have situations that require hand-holding at very slow shutter speeds.

8. Exposure. In general I used a rule of thumb to get close on exposure, or an incident light meter for tough situations, took an exposure, waited 750 milliseconds for the buffer to clear, read the histogram, made an adjustment and then fired a second, real shot. Not the best way of going about "decisive moment" street photography. The alternative is to set the camera up to expose for the average lighting in your situation, leaving some headroom against overexposure, and correct on post processing. Of course with most of these backs to the extent that you try to dig shadow detail out of underexposed files IQ suffers badly.

My bottom line is that I might be able to make this work if I spent a lot of time practicing on focus and worked to bring back my exposure "guestimate" skills from my M3 days. There is someone out there who is doing this (there was a reference to the body of work on this board but I can't find it - sc John may be able to point us to it) but only, I am certain, after a long and focused effort to master it and using it for a look that doesn't depend on razor sharp focus and the resulting three-dimensionality for its impact.

I'm in awe of those who are making this work - for now I'm sticking to using the Horseman as a "view camera" (it excels at this) and an M8 for walk around street stuff.

PS - if you're interested in shifting to make panoramas or parallel vertical lines buy Guy's Horseman!
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well said folks . i think one way to look at all this and how i am viewing it mostly is the use of these optics, they are the best around and now that I have the Horseman and 35mm digitar i want to use it to my benefit. I think we should look at these lenses in a special way is how can we use them to there advantage after 35mm going down with the Hassy 28 and Maiya 28mm it gets sketchy. Those 28mm lenses are also 4k plus and there very good but there not like a Schnieder or Rodenstock 28mm either. So if you are demanding the best quality in the wide world these are hard to ignore. As a street camera not sure i would only buy it for that the M8 would prove to be a better tool but if you need to shoot wide in MF these will do that in spades but you can certainly use it for other things as well. Maybe not the easiest task but if you can judge distance well than a lot easier . I am going to play tomorrow with the Horseman since my lens returned yesterday from being lose in the mount. Now i have to see how good they really are.
 

etrigan63

Active member
I posted a blog article about this very topic a couple of months ago. I took the tongue-in-cheek approach using this gear to defend the relatively low cost of Leica M equipment to non-believers. Good for a laugh I suppose. Here is the link.
 
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Natasa Stojsic

Guest
PeterA, sc_john, Woody Campbell, thanks to all.... very good info:thumbup:


Just to make sure... when I talk about ALPA, I generally think about the Family
of ALPA Frames/Cameras/convenience/compatibility/options/etc!!!

I can't blame my pockets because of their prices:( Woody,verify and please correct me if I'm wrong, but ALPA XY has more movement than any Horseman Camera.... Therefore, most photographers say ALPA XY is overkill more than they need..... and this is why ALPA is bringing BABY XY plus Tilt & Shift Adapter!!!

In that respect I think ALPA is very casual(street) & very serious(field/etc.) system, OK! Guy and PeterA... Sexy too!!!:p:thumbs:


As I understand your optimum sharpness was at f8 on 39mp, I was using Phase 39p P45+ and according to my test, optimum sharpness on 24mm was f5.6. So, I am not entirely sure about the best formula yet.... but as soon as I get the Camera with your help and the help of others.... I'm sure all of us together will do more than fine:thumbup:

With regards to ISO, I can go higher even though I don't usually go very often over ISO400

Guy - I was looking at the Linhof Mulit F. Viewfinder for longer lenses but that too is expensive:( So your idea could do the trick, perhaps not for the longer lenses but still good enough for start:thumbup:

sc_john - With regards to gg back to focus and Hasselblad right angle finder that can be mounted via ALPA V-mount adapter! That's very good to know, because I am always thinking, image.....image....image.... but lately it's more convenience..... convenience...... convenience..... my options...... my options...... my options........!!!:thumbup:
 
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Natasa Stojsic

Guest
I posted a blog article about this very topic a couple of months ago. I took the tongue-in-cheek approach using this gear to defend the relatively low cost of Leica M equipment to non-believers. Good for a laugh I suppose. Here is the link.

etrigan63, ALPA TC is really small, as I said before... ALPA TC is actually the lightest Digital MF Solution out there with the best Lenses that you can afford to buy!!! This is why I refer to it as TC/39mp Leica:thumbup:

Thanks for the link:thumbup:

PS: Bob, small enough???;)
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Anyone know what the charge is to convert a existing lens into the Alpa mount. i know the price may vary but just a idea would be great
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Thanks Billy. Not so bad the expensive part for me looking at all this. The darn special grip for my Phase back is 1200 . i think for me to do this I would just get the finger grip at less than 200 and just use my existing cord from Phase at 80 dollars . Than later maybe add the grip when money allows. It certainly is a appealing idea.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well I listed my Horseman, I'm nuts but I think i am better off with the Mamiya 28mm or one of these Alpa's which i can't afford right now but would love to get one. Lenses are killer expensive
 

robsteve

Subscriber
Guy:

Are you forgetting that the lenses are too slow except for bright daylight shooting in the street?

The next time you need to shoot the interior or cockpit of a plane, the shift of the Horseman would be handy.

Robert
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
No worries mate just buy a second wider lens. LOL No i have someways to get around that. Actually a 24mm FF 35mm is perfect . 35mm on a P25 is I think 24 or 25.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
This is where good high ISO performance is really needed. Large apertures and their shallow DOF are not always what you want.
yes i have a easy ISO 400 and a very good 800 from what i seen so far. This is has several uses for me. The lens on this are better than anything i can buy in wide on the Mamiya. i can also hook up a focusing aid too or tethered. I'm not much of a stitcher person.
 

charlesphoto

New member
Okay, this should be an easy one for Guy and Jack, as well as others here.

Suppose you're an M8 shooter who loves street shooting, most often with 28, 35 and 50 lenses. You never shoot landscapes, macro, sports or wildlife. You want portability, light weight and the ability to quickly compose, focus and shoot...

BUT...

you're interested in the great files that MF provides. Here's the question:

For this shooter, what's the best MF combo of back, body, lenses and accessories? Have at it!

Thanks,
Brad
Brad,

Mamiya 6 or 7 or an old Rolleiflex and a good scanner (you're welcome to drop by the studio and check out my Imacon sometime) and/or lab/scan house. I know that this is not the answer you wanted but for portability and equation to an M the Mamiya 6 or 7 can't be beat. Yes, you have to deal with film (oh the horror, the horror) but you're also not stuck with 30,000 worth of gear that can only shoot at f8! The 6/7 are super quiet (way quieter than a Leica) and have amazing lenses for them esp on the wide end. An old Rolleiflex is the ultimate in stealth because people are no longer used to you looking down in a camera. Very disarming.

For wide the Hasselblad SWC is a good choice - might also be an option for digital not thought about here. You still have to hyperfocus but you get a lot of leeway. I recommend the C/V finder for it.

Some things film is still king and that is portable, full frame, leaf shutter medium format. If someday we were able to get a Mamiya/Fuji style rangefinder in digital and/or a Rollie TLR my life would be complete.
 
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