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Medium Format, Taking The First Steps

R

Ronan

Guest
Greetings everyone! First of all, really nice forum! I will try to keep this sweet & short.

I have been shooting with the Nikon DX system for quite sometime, and recently been shooting with their FX system, the D3 and D3x. I now have the urge to check the Medium format world (thanks to a colleague that bought a Hasselblad H2 with a film and digital back...:D).

I'm in the market for a medium format camera, with a right handed grip, metering, and preferably inexpensive, to wet my appetite and see if i wish to later upgrade the system and/or purchase a digital back. Medium Format Targets (for now): Still Life, Landscape, Architecture.

I have done some research and found the following to meet my expectations in both IQ, Handling/Performance and of course current budget:


Mamiya 645E (Cheapest Mamiya 645 that meet my need i believe?)
Mamiya 645 Super (The one with detachable grip)
Mamiya 645AF (The one with build in grip & viewfinder)
Pentax 645 (Cheapest i believe?)
Pentax 645N (AF ability)


To follow my research, i figured i would join and ask some questions directly to users that have used them.

Are their other systems/bodies i should consider?
Anything that i should absolutely know about them?
Can each be upgraded to a digital back? I believe the Pentax 645's cannot?
What should i expect to pay for a complete system with 1 lens? Prices vary largely on the internet and in stores are quite... ridiculous.

At the time i am NOT interested in purchasing a digital back (unless the deal is quite good, lol).

Thank you for your time :)
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
I had the Mamiya Super, the Pro is only a fraction more on the 2nd hand market, it's more compatible with accessories, I'd get that.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Ronan,

If you want to go to MF digital with the Mamiya system then I'd advise looking at the 645AFD series of cameras, with preference being for a 645AFD II or newer if you can. The options for digital backs on the other manual focus 645 series cameras is VERY limited. If you go with the 645E, 645 Pro TL, etc then that investment will be sunk if you do decide to go to digital, although the flip side is that they are available very cheaply these days, including the manual focus glass. I had a 645E to start with, and then the Pro TL which is an EXCELLENT film camera.

New prices can be quite intimidating for these systems unless you're buying a complete outfit with a digital back. It seems that they'll almost throw in the camera for free these days compared to what it would cost you new on it's own. (645DF systems are a case in point). Big price drops on used equipment so much more affordable that way.

If you're shooting with a D3x today then you'll need to step up to a relatively recent digital back to see much benefit. (I used to shoot this too btw until very recently). For example, I would rather shoot with the D3x vs a Kodak DCS 645M or ZD back personally, even though these are probably the lowest entry cost to MF digital for the Mamiya platform. I used to shoot with the Kodak a few years back and the D3x definitely is a better imaging system! However, one of these sold complete for <$3k recently over at Luminous Landscape and no doubt on eBay too. There are often good deals on ZD backs and ZM cameras - again watch out for a dead end with the ZM unless you don't mind buying a new body/back in the future.

Do you have a budget in mind? Getting a Mamiya 645AFD system with an 80/2.8 AF and film back is easily doable for around $1k, possibly less. With each newer generation of camera you obviously add to the cost although AFD II and onwards are definitely much better overall, particularly for interfacing to digital backs.

If Pentax is your passion then a film based 645N II is a great platform. No digital upgrade path but a great MF camera system and nice glass. If you decide that you like it then the new Pentax 645D is the obvious upgrade path there, although it's an integrated camera vs a body/back.

Btw, there are lots of Hasselblad options too. Not my area of experience but I'm sure that you'll get some guidance on V & H systems to consider with film initially that will provide a digital upgrade path. I'll leave that to the others that know ...

Hope that helps.
 

mediumcool

Active member
Mamiya 645E (Cheapest Mamiya 645 that meet my need i believe?)
Mamiya 645 Super (The one with detachable grip)
Mamiya 645AF (The one with build in grip & viewfinder)
Pentax 645 (Cheapest i believe?)
Pentax 645N (AF ability)
None of these cameras will work with a recent digital back; the Mamiya 645 AF worked with very early digital rear-ends, including the Kodak Proback. These are getting old now.

You would need an AFD or newer to use with more recent backs (I have an AFD with an Aptus 22 back); the AFD body cost me about $600 on eBay (with no film back) and the Aptus under $5K on another forum.

Another way to look at the situation is that Pentax have maintained their mount so a MF lens will meter and stop down, but with no autofocus, while their newer AF lenses will fully function on the 645D.

On the other hand, Mamiya went for electronic aperture management on the AF models, so older MF lenses are manual-stop-down lenses as well as manual focus.

Score that one to Pentax. ;)
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
In the Mamiya mount I have had all 4 bodies and right now shooting the DF body but honestly because of pretty bad shutter lag I would get nothing less than the AFD III which will still shoot film and you can easily put any digital Phase or Leaf back on it at any time. When the DF came out a lot of users traded them in for a upgrade so a lot of the dealers have them on hand for a decent price. It may not be n your budget but I would encourage you to try to get enough for it as you will pass through these bodies when you get a digital back. Now I shoot all types of photography so shutter lag was a big issue for me. YMMV on this and the AFDIII focuses fast. The ultimate is the DF right now as it has really no perceivable shutter lag and very fast AF. But it will not take film
 

thomas

New member
Medium Format Targets (for now): Still Life, Landscape, Architecture.
(...)
Are their other systems/bodies i should consider?
Maybe the Contax645. Very nice lenses, vertical grip, waist level finder. Although discontinued it's still supported by Medium Format Digital Back makers... all the Phase One and Leaf digibacks are available in Contax mount, even the latest and greatest.
The latter also goes for the Hassy-V.

None of the 645 cameras is particularly suited to shoot architecture and still life... as neither the bodies nor the lenses offer movements (shift/tilt).

Re still life maybe the new Schneider 120 T/S lens might be of interest for you... available in Mamiya mount (so usable on the Mamiya 645 AFD).
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Here is a used ad from Capture Integration if this helps pricing wise. The Phase One is the AFDIII



Mamiya Bodies
Used with 6 month warranty
$899
Phase One
AF Refurb
Part #fspo:71392


-
$699
Mamiya
AFD II
Part #211-145


-
$399
Mamiya
AFD I
Part #211-145


-
 
R

Ronan

Guest
I greatly appreciate the feedback, it's making this whole... lets call it phase, much easier.

I have looked at Contax, but could not figure out why they are going for a lot MORE than their Mamiya counterpart.

Guy, those prices are a lot less than what i have seen around, i will look more into Capture Integration, but it seems their eStore does not work...

Something i have been wondering, i keep hearing how film is always better than digital. From first hand experience, i have yet seen 35mm come close to Nikon FX sensors, or even their latest DX sensors IQ.

From owning a D3x, it was mention, i really do need the latest digital backs to make MF worth it if i do work with it. This is making me second guess my choice of entering the MF world (especially considered since i am already fully setup for the Nikon system, and MF is nothing more of a hobby/phase for me).

It seems i have some decisions to make, both in personal shooting and on contract.

If i were to go for a inexpensive film MF, but still give me that MF IQ that is legendary, which one would you (all you guys & girls out there) chose?

Someone asked my budget, i would say ~$500 for a basic film MF kit, and ~$1000 for a more 'pro' film MF kit that has the option of 'modern' digital backs. I do not feel more comfortable spending more at the moment until i really get my feet wet.

Also my reason for being interested in MF, is primarily the legendary IQ i am often told about, and to see what experience/feel i would get from shooting MF.

Thank you.

P.S: Guy Mancuso, you remind me of someone... but i can't quite put my finger on it :)

Edit: Those are the prices for kits i have seen lately (w/o shipping/taxes):
Pentax 645 ~$400
Pentax 645N ~$450
Mamiya 645E ~$500
Mamiya 645 Pro ~$600
Mamiya 645AF ~$750
Mamiya 645AFD ~$1300
Mamiya 645 AFDII ~$1700
 

Dustbak

Member
Honestly?

If you are already set with a D3x plus lenses, etc.. and you are not willing to spend much. I would stay away from MF. I would not read one single topic anymore on this forum area. MF will cost you and always more than you initially planned to spend. Sometimes a lot more.

I am not making a statement one way or the other whether that is worth it or not. Fact is that you will spend much more than you are thinking of.

MF Film? Even though it sounds inexpensive, if you want to get better results than with your D3x you are probably also looking at spending more money than you currently want to.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I greatly appreciate the feedback, it's making this whole... lets call it phase, much easier.

I have looked at Contax, but could not figure out why they are going for a lot MORE than their Mamiya counterpart.

Guy, those prices are a lot less than what i have seen around, i will look more into Capture Integration, but it seems their eStore does not work...

Something i have been wondering, i keep hearing how film is always better than digital. From first hand experience, i have yet seen 35mm come close to Nikon FX sensors, or even their latest DX sensors IQ.

From owning a D3x, it was mention, i really do need the latest digital backs to make MF worth it if i do work with it. This is making me second guess my choice of entering the MF world (especially considered since i am already fully setup for the Nikon system, and MF is nothing more of a hobby/phase for me).

It seems i have some decisions to make, both in personal shooting and on contract.

If i were to go for a inexpensive film MF, but still give me that MF IQ that is legendary, which one would you (all you guys & girls out there) chose?

Someone asked my budget, i would say ~$500 for a basic film MF kit, and ~$1000 for a more 'pro' film MF kit that has the option of 'modern' digital backs. I do not feel more comfortable spending more at the moment until i really get my feet wet.

Also my reason for being interested in MF, is primarily the legendary IQ i am often told about, and to see what experience/feel i would get from shooting MF.

Thank you.

P.S: Guy Mancuso, you remind me of someone... but i can't quite put my finger on it :)

Edit: Those are the prices for kits i have seen lately (w/o shipping/taxes):
Pentax 645 ~$400
Pentax 645N ~$450
Mamiya 645E ~$500
Mamiya 645 Pro ~$600
Mamiya 645AF ~$750
Mamiya 645AFD ~$1300
Mamiya 645 AFDII ~$1700
E-store will not work on used but give Steve a call in Atlanta and he can help you. I still say given your budget the AFD III a 80mm D lens which are not expensive but extremely good and a film back. At any given moment when you get funds or decision together you can just buy a used back like a P30+ pretty much the cost of your D3X and you have a very capable basic kit to run with and more important the body is more modern with speed and some other features over the I and II . This way your only 1 generation behind which is nothing really in MF since it does not change as fast as the 35mm world.

Also yes Thomas is correct the Contax is also very nice but just FYI it is not made anymore so any updates to it are not going to happen but they are nice kits.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
As Dustbank mentioned this is a very slippery slope and not a very cheap one . So you have to see what gains there are for your type of shooting. Me i love MF but i have client needs that also dictate that so just do your homework and see if it makes sense.

Lots of good folks here that give great advice. Okay I'm off to LA check in about 9 hours . Or while I am driving. LOL
 

thomas

New member
Ahem! Mamiya first offered a 50mm shift lens for the 645 many years ago. Mine should be arriving from Poland any day!
sure - true! I always forget this lens.

the Contax is also very nice but just FYI it is not made anymore so any updates to it are not going to happen but they are nice kits.
no updates required... it's a complete system.
Of course no one is going to improve AF or any other feature on the camera. It is what it is. But it's a full blown system with a nice range of lenses, waist level finder, vertical grip, flash bracket, bellows lens hood and you name it ...

Whether or not it is useful to buy into a "dead" system...well, this is a difficult question. But if you are generally willing to buy into a "dead" system the Contax is certainly the most viable.... the most alive Zombie so to say :)
Beside the V of course...

Anyway... I think "Dustbak" nailed the point. If you try to "outperform" a D3x with 645 film high end scans are required.
BTW: there is also a vacuum film back for the Contax :D
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
If I were wanting to dabble in MF film---with the eye towards perhaps moving to digital, I would look at a used Mamiya/Phase body, like these: http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy/

The body itself (to shoot MF film) is not so important in terms of a "future eye" towards digital, but the ability to hold onto any lenses and use them with a future digital platform is signficant. The Mamiya 645AFD/II/III and Phase AF just need a film back. Once you decide to purchase a MFDB, really the cost of a new/better camera body platform is rather negligible at that point, but being able to use lenses that you have acquired is a big plus. Obviously more recent Mamiya/Phase iterations are more expensive and also a better choice for digital.
 
S

SCHWARZZEIT

Guest
Something i have been wondering, i keep hearing how film is always better than digital. From first hand experience, i have yet seen 35mm come close to Nikon FX sensors, or even their latest DX sensors IQ.
There is a B&W microfilm available in 35mm that offers incredible image resolution that would beat even an 80 MP back in terms of image detail. But it's only black and white and we're talking about ASA 10-12 and a special developer to keep the steep contrast of the emulsion in check.
On normal films the quality depends on how you use them. Digital sensors are very sensitive in capturing low contrast detail that often gets lost within the grain structure of the film. So most films look softer in direct comparison with a digital image of the same capture format. Digital is cleaner while film introduces a character of its own. You either like that or not. It's a matter of personal preference. Sometimes a certain mood that film delivers is more important to the image than the overall amount of image detail that could have been captured with large format or an MFD system. However, retaining that character into the digital world requires some form of high-end-scanning.
If i were to go for a inexpensive film MF, but still give me that MF IQ that is legendary, which one would you (all you guys & girls out there) chose?
The cheapest method in getting excellent MF quality is using slide film for what it is as a projection original. You shoot it, give it to a lab for processing, set up the slide and project it on a screen. There's nothing like it in the digital world. It's an intimate experience with its very special mood as it's quite uncommon these days. You can't share it worldwide. It's just for you and maybe some friends and family.
Of course a great MF projector can set you back $1K even on the used market. But the experience is something else. Think IMAX!

-Dominique
 
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