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Thread: The colors of Flagstaff

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    The colors of Flagstaff

    Well I ran away from the heat of Phoenix at 110 degrees with my family and headed for the high country 7000 ft in cool Flagstaff. Seems every time I get some new system I head up here. Actually kind of a neat place to goof off and shoot some images. Anyway I continue to be impressed with this system for one but theses Mamiya lenses are really great with color , saturation , contrast and there resolving power.Heading home in a few hours but hard to leave 85 degree temps. Here are some 55mm shots. Just put camera on daylight and let it rip no adjustments to WB. This is at 6 am
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Couple more and may have to load up more when I get home. Spotty internet
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    These are all from the 150mm 3.5 lens . Really like the look of this lens
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Watch the colors , seem to handle every color very well. All done in C1
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Couple more before I run
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Guy, these look very good. I guess if you're at 7000 feet you can call yourself Alpine Pizza

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Exactly David.LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Guy, I appreciate you posting these, with all of the colors and contrasty light, etc. I'm finding my P25+ and AFD II very funky and inconsistent for colors when the files are first viewed in ACR/Bridge and what little I've looked at them in C-1 DB. I can correct the white point of course, but some are off by huge amounts. Are you seeing good color right out of the camera in C-1?

    Edit to add: After just now looking at some files from yesterday, C-1 DB did a much better job with colors, but there are still several frames that are really off. Is this normal behavior for this system? I'm still learning the ropes here. I've never experienced this with my Canon gear. I can understand that the profiles aren't great in ACR for the PhaseOne back, but I expected better of C-1. Maybe I'm setup wrong and need to find a profile or setting to improve things. I'm sure I'm the weak link here as I have no experience with C-1. I've invested a lot of time in learning CS3/ACR for my needs, and I'm certainly at the bottom of the curve, looking up, with C-1.
    Last edited by Dale Allyn; 16th June 2008 at 09:55.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Dale in the third tool icon (the one that looks like a Q) make sure that you start out by selecting the correct ICC profile for the light you were under. You can also experiment with selecting a base curve, such as film standard or linear.

    That makes a big difference and should be done prior to anything else.

    Best,

    Ray

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Ray, Thank you for this tip. I'll check it out. I had left the profile at default.

    The files will adjust or "normalize", but some where just wacky. I'm also learning that my exposure practices for Canon gear are not ideal for this system.

    Thanks again.

    Correction: After looking at the tool, I had adjusted the profile, at least in some sessions. I forgot in another, but it made no difference in this case. Most of the weird color issues occurred at high elevation (around 7,500' above sea level) and seemed inconsistent. I have a lot to learn with both C-1 and the Phase back. The images taken around my home/patio (low elevation) look great in terms of exposure and color balance, but the mountain stuff was way off. Some way off in color temp, others off in tint – not slightly, but quite a lot. Hmm... learning.
    Last edited by Dale Allyn; 16th June 2008 at 11:49.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Dale just walked in the door . Try 4.1 from Phase Also. May have to download it. Not sure i would use Bridge, it maybe selecting some tag or something. Dale you may have a AWB issue also. This morning all of this was set on Daylight on the back. More consistent all the way around. AWB can get fooled very easy with any system too
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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Guy, thanks for the tip. I was wondering about AWB on this system. I've had good luck with it on the Canon gear (more so than some other systems), but often use custom WB for critical stuff. I've read that AWB might not be ideal for the Mamiya/Phaso combo and I should have tested both settings this weekend. I'll shoot outdoor stuff on the daylight setting and see it that makes for less work.

    I'll download 4.1 also. I had not done that yet because I read of complaints when using it on a PPC Mac. I'm using a PowerMac G5 dual processor for most of my stuff since the P25+ and Mamiya stuff kinda bruised my MacPro budget. LOL. I have lots of RAM so maybe 4.1 will be OK. I don't know if I can sneak a new MacPro in until my wife goes out of town. The UPS guy has been showing up everyday as it is. LOL

  13. #13
    Samuel Axelsson
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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    I strongly recommend trying out the profiles in C1. They change colors in very different ways. I find LR and ACR very good for after-processing the files but they don't read phase files right IMO. Specially, reds are usually way off to magenta.
    If you are shooting landscapes is not a big deal but with people and cloths I always go throught C1 first.

    This is from a test I did a few months ago:

    /Samuel
    Last edited by Samuel Axelsson; 15th September 2008 at 08:01.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Samuel, thanks for the info and comparison shots. After doing some more "test" shots today I think that AWB was severely tricked in my shooting this weekend. I've never experienced white balance issues this severe. I used the profiles in C-1 DB and there's no improvement, so I'm guessing that AWB is the source of my difficulties.

    I'll install C-1 v4.1 and see how that goes.

    Best,

    Dale

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Depends on what your shooting Dale . Just stick on daylight and try that just for reference to see what is going on. I do recommend C1 for these Phase backs , it does a nice job.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Thanks, Guy. I've just never shot a system that was all over the place with white balance. Some files are great, some are way too blue, others off in some other direction. Some of the white balance swings were during the same several frames, but with slight compositional adjustments. I'll learn what's needed, but was caught off guard because I generally shoot AWB with success, or shoot custom WB. I find that with my Canon and other gear the "tungsten" and "fluorescent" settings are much worse then AWB, so just avoid them. Now I'm learning a new way, with the help of members here.

    I'll stick with "daylight" for outdoor stuff with this back and maybe I won't get such a surprise when I download a CF card full of images.

    Thanks for sharing your great colors of flagstaff, and thanks to everyone for sharing your knowledge of the Phase One products.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Do an ACR calibration with a Macbeth ColorChecker, it made a huge difference for my P25. I used this script: http://21stcenturyshoebox.com/tools/ACRcalibrator.html

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Thanks, Mammy645. I was thinking about that as well. I'll try C-1 v4.1 first though, since Phase should be in the best place to know how to process the files. I'm sure that the fault is mine, in that I assumed the AWB would render the same results I've gotten with my other gear. If an ACR calibration will render equal results then my workflow could remain more convenient. I'll try both.

    And, Guy, sorry about hogging your thread. Your images are great and the varied palette made me think what a nightmare it would have been to process if the white balance results were like mine. Your thread has helped me to better understand the back and it's workings.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    No need to apologize ever. That is what this place is about is learning how to get the best results. I like us to keep a eye on this and make sure nothing is wrong either. I have had a few bounce around files but nothing major.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    guy

    Love the Flagstaff shots. Great series to show off the P25+ and worth every look.

    I do have a question though..........is it me or is there a pervasive blue cast throughout the images. I can see that the sky is intense and it may just be the sky reflections are everywhere and this is what I am seeing. Kind of like Antelope Canyon where you pick up sky light on one wall and direct light on another ending up with almost purple shadows and intense orange high tones.

    Anyway, just a curiosity.

    Woody

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Woody, if it is 6am, as Guy stated, then I would expect a blue cast - depending on the time of sunrise. I noticed it at first and attributed it to the time - the quality (and color) of the light seems appropriate for that time of day.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Probably so Charles. I was just curious as it was very pronounced. But it is what it is as they say these days. Blue light is blue light and in these conditions, i.e. little diffusion due to no clouds or haze, the blue is very likely to go absolutely everywhere.

    Woody

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Exactly Woody with low sun like it was than if something is not hit by it directly it will just reflect the sky. I did these on my laptop also , so I will check these on the big screen and do a double take. I did leave it on flash for the C1 profile for some reason that is the default. Which I need to change to daylight or outdoor
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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Okay on the desktop it seems i am running about 300 kelvin or 4400 kelvin to the cool side using the Daylight on camera . The correct temp should be about 4700 kelvin on everything. Now this was shot extremely early in the morning so to be more accurate maybe when the sun is up a little more which normally is about 5300 kelvin plus i am at altitude which may account for more blue. 7000 ft is pretty high

    Anyway corrected to 4700 for the first one than 4300. Now still a touch blue in the shadow side which to be expected since it is the shade
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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    BTW looking at the Exif this is the 55mm wide open at 2.8 and the Pizza is pretty good. LOL
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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    As you can see 4700 kelvin looks correct for this time of the morning. 4700 than 4400 as it came in
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Interesting about a half hour later than these two shots it jumps to 5100 kelvin as the WB. Obviously the low light is skipping the surface of the sky which keeps it low than as it gets higher it starts to get higher in color temp as it should to eventually get to about 5400 to 5800 kelvin. Bottom line it's ALL about the light folks , like it should be. Pretty damn cool if you ask me
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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Guy, I've noticed too that the default is flash in C1. Let me know if you figure out if there is a way to change the default.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    I will Kurt we can call Doug at CI which he is a genius at C1 to give us some answer on this. Actually i will send him a e-mail to post here on this thread . Doug is a really great guy with a lot of knowledge on C1.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  30. #30
    Samuel Axelsson
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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    Guy, I've noticed too that the default is flash in C1. Let me know if you figure out if there is a way to change the default.
    If you're using 3.x : Preferences > Color Managment > Camera > Use Profile by default.

    I don't think the default can be changed in C1 4.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Yes working in C1 4.1
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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Changing the default ICC profile was a feature in 3.7.8 Capture One Pro, which has not made it over to 4.1.1 yet.

    I really miss that, as I "HATE" having to change the profile every time.

    Even on the M8 it comes up as Leica M8 generic vs. the UV/IR profile.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    I haven't installed 4.1.1 yet, but had already located the pref. in 3.7.8 and changed it. It's odd that it didn't make it to 4.1.1 since that's a very simple feature to include – much simpler than most of the changes that were part of the upgrade. Let's hope that they put it back soon.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Well you can simple make the change select all than copy ad to the whole folder of images too. Simple way around it but i agree it needs to make it over to 4.1 . Maybe when the Pro version comes out it will be adjustable and able to make default , but we have a work around for now.
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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    *sigh, I so rarely post on forums because I can never restrain myself and end up with dense, impossible-to-read posts... O well.

    Mammy645, I would love to hear more about your experiences with calibrating ACR. Could you post some before/after examples? How does the calibration hold up under strongly tinted light such as tungsten or sunset light?


    Couple of thoughts:

    1) The medium format back with 16bit processing and higher dynamic range will pick up on subtle variation in color that a dSLR, or high-saturation slide film (i.e. velvia) would not. This will be especially true when comparing dark-and-saturated tones and pastel colors in highlights. Therefore you'll expect to see a blue-tint in shadows when balanced for warmer daylight. On a dSLR this blue-tint would be less obvious. If you want to emulate an existing camera, for instance to add to a continuing body of work, my suggestion would be a slight toe in the curve to reduce apparent dynamic range. Also you can experiment with easy-black, or easy-gray input ICC profiles in Capture One. These profiles push lightly saturated colors back towards neutral. This can be useful in a variety of instances. Easy-gray is more aggressive than easy-black.

    2) The non plus and plus versions of the back have different IR-cut filters in front of the sensor. The result is that sometimes a P25 might

    3) While ACR, especially when tweaked and calibrated, can do a fine job of processing the P1 files, any serious experimentation should include Capture One, especially 4.1. If you're looking for something to do on a rainy day Irrident Raw Developer can process phase one files as well. We have a comparison of various developers here: http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/software/

    4) The ability to control default settings is being included in 4.2 Pro due shortly after Photokina. It's not of much of a substitute, but there are some really slick ways to copy settings between images in Capture One 4.1. My favorite for this situation would be
    copy adjustments [Shift-Apple-C]
    select all [Apple-A]
    paste adjustments [Shift-Apple-V]
    If the first two things you do are set an input profile and a white balance then this combination of shortcuts will copy the profile and WB to all images in that folder very quickly. However, the ability to set a default would be better, and is slated for 4.2 Pro.

    5) Often a dSLR will clip one channel but not the others, which will produce incorrect color in the highlights or shadows. The most common instance would be tungsten light or early daylight where the content of the light is biased towards red. In this case the red channel is over exposed and the blue channel is under exposed. When the white balance is applied there is an effective pull given to the red and a push to the blue. Without good dynamic range this means the red channel will be clipped and loose highlight-accuracy. This comes up all the time with skin tones under strongly warm light; the average exposure will be spot on, but the red channel is being pulled a stop or more and highlights on the face will become blotchy and produce unnatural red fringing.

    By the way, what is an input profile you ask?
    Different light sources have holes (or peaks) in parts of the visible spectrum. White Balance shifts the white point within the visible spectrum but does not take into account the variances specific parts of specific colors. By selecting the proper profile your colors should match even when changing between light sources. For instance, imagine you're shooting a model with a rainbow dress inside in industrial and incandescent lighting as well as outside. White balancing these shots would match neutral grays, but a specific color like red might be under-saturated or appear off in hue. By also using the proper input profile those reds would match as well. There are limits of course, because no two lights are the same, but it does a pretty snazzy job.

    Dale, if you're having problems producing consistent accurate color then you should speak with your dealer. They should be able to help you; there is very little chance your back is defective, so more likely there are elements of your workflow that need tweaked to produce best quality. With a proper workflow these backs produce the most accurate and consistent color of any system I've ever used. It's also possible that you're accustomed to a certain look from another camera system which was not as technically-precise in color. If this is the case your dealer should be able to help you to create a profile using Color Editor that matches the color reproduction of whatever your used to. At Capture Integration we often produce a profile for a legacy digital back when a customer upgrades. For instance, a month ago we produced a P45+ profile to match the color reproduction of the P25 for a customer who had become used to the P25 and had to match upcoming P45+ shots with archived P25 shots. After all, "accuracy" (as measured in a lab scientifically against known consortium-established targets) is the least important part of a color-workflow unless the goal is matching specific colors (e.g. "Coke Red"). Otherwise the important part is that you find the colors pleasing, which is purely subjective.

    Happy experimenting,

    Doug

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Thanks Doug . Number 4 on your list is what i normally would do. But did not on the laptop when I was in Flagstaff. Number 1 on your list is very interesting and something I will try also with easy grey and easy black
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Clip...

    Dale, if you're having problems producing consistent accurate color then you should speak with your dealer. They should be able to help you; there is very little chance your back is defective, so more likely there are elements of your workflow that need tweaked to produce best quality. With a proper workflow these backs produce the most accurate and consistent color of any system I've ever used. It's also possible that you're accustomed to a certain look from another camera system which was not as technically-precise in color. If this is the case your dealer should be able to help you to create a profile using Color Editor that matches the color reproduction of whatever your used to. At Capture Integration we often produce a profile for a legacy digital back when a customer upgrades. For instance, a month ago we produced a P45+ profile to match the color reproduction of the P25 for a customer who had become used to the P25 and had to match upcoming P45+ shots with archived P25 shots. After all, "accuracy" (as measured in a lab scientifically against known consortium-established targets) is the least important part of a color-workflow unless the goal is matching specific colors (e.g. "Coke Red"). Otherwise the important part is that you find the colors pleasing, which is purely subjective.

    Doug
    Doug,

    Great post, thank you.

    Let me clarify that I, in no way, feel my back is defective. The oddities which I am experiences are most likely workflow/user error/familiarization, etc. The back produces fine colors in the kind of light that I would normally shoot. It was just rather shocking to open a folder of images and find that every frame needed significant white balance adjustment, and some in very odd ways (odd to me, based on experience with other systems, perhaps not odd to others).

    Your post points out another important point which is consistent with my observations with these sets of files: while I'm used to exposing images to the right of the histogram with DSLRs, the brightest files from these sets were the most inaccurately white balanced. I have since adjusted my interpretation of the histogram on this back and things are mellowing. The histogram on the P25+ back is not as easy for me to see in daylight as other cameras, so I've missed right-side clipping.

    As for dealer: Lance and I spoke and I look forward to working with you folks. My back purchase was a "rescue purchase" from someone who felt they made a mistake by going to MFDB, though the back was brand new with VA package. I attempted to contact the seller to introduce myself, etc., but he opted not to respond.

    Lance was very pleasant to speak with and suggested that he would pass my name, etc. on to you.

    Again, Doug, great post. Thank you.

    Best,

    Dale

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Dale,

    Lance did pass your name onto me but I have trouble sometimes correlating names online with names I know from in-person conversations.

    Look forward to working with you!
    Doug Peterson
    Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
    Personal Portfolio

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    Re: The colors of Flagstaff

    Doug, there are a lot of people who use the internet. I doubt anyone expects you to remember them all, or even correlate them with off-line acquaintances.

    Looking forward to working with you folks too.

    Cheers!

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