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Thread: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

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    Subscriber Member jotloob's Avatar
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeiR View Post
    Dammit.. i really really must stop reading this thread. I feel slipping..
    Quote Originally Posted by mvirtue View Post
    I know! I took my Aptus out for a spin untethered and I sure wish I had focus mask...Slippery! Must.Not.Give.In!
    True enough .
    The path between temptation and the risk of addiction is very , very small .
    At least , thats how I feel it . It all depends on , if you have to rectify your desire or not .

    Currently , I am on the safe side due to the high cost for the IQ160 + IQ180 . But I do like to go for the best .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  2. #152
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    Hi Steve, thanks for replying.

    In my opinion phase one should be lenient on a case by case basis (for example with "grace grants" for people who just bought a p65+ before the value guarantee to be able to profit from it too) and very generous in letting people upgrade their systems to fair prices. This creates brand loyalty and trust. This is especially important for a camera that's worth as much as a luxury car and with a majority of users that aren't millionaires. Phase One prides itself in providing exceptional value protection for its users, but for example lowering all pXX+ backs by 10k in one sweep is not exactly that.

    Thanks

    Paul
    My first posting on this excellent forum. Thanks for all the help in the past.

    In January I bought the P65+ instead of the Leaf 12 because of the 90% upgrade guarantee. They were the same price. Now 65% of the price of the IQ180 is more than 100% of my purchase price for the P65+. So don't feel to bad if you missed out on that upgrade guarantee. But I should have bought the Leaf 12 which would have given me 80% discount.
    What will the prices for the IQ1x0 do when all upgrade deals have been fulfilled?

    Does anybody know whether the focus mask is available during live view? That would really be great on an Alpa.

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Ophuis View Post
    awesome! now to wait for Hasselblad to bring something similar out
    Hope you aren't holding your breath........
    Siebel
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by JSK Rangefinder View Post
    that is exactly what I did last 2 years.. used my Canons and basically rent Phase/Hassy when I needed it... now it's a different story altogether since the actress from our latest movie was nominated for Golden Globes we didn't win.. but at this point nomination for our movie is good enough excuse for me to finally go and get one of these Phase IQ backs
    With sensor plus yielding big, beautiful 20MP files, you might seriously consider ditching the DSLR completely.
    Siebel
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Do NOT underestimate Sensor Plus even at 10 mpx on my P40+ i get outstanding image quality and honestly it looks more like 15 mpx cams. Noise is extremely well tamed as well. I do have a thread on this actually here

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    Hi Steve, thanks for replying.

    I don't understand the difference between sideways and lateral everybody's talking about.

    Isn't it all already clearly laid out?

    Phase One back = percentage according to name

    Other brand back = percentage of megapixels.

    It is stated that way on the page.

    Ergo a Leaf Aptus 12 should entitle its owner to 80% off the list price?

    Paul
    Upgrades are defined as going up in resolution or sensor size. Cross grades are, for instance, going from a P40+ or P45+ to an IQ140 where your resolution and sensor size remain the same.

    Upgrade pricing is shown at the link.

    So no, an Aptus II 12 does not yield 80% off list price of any IQ product as it would be a crossgrade.

    Cross grade pricing has not been established yet. I realize that's frustrating, but it's only been two days since the announcement, and besides the IQ140 and IQ160 won't be shipping until after the IQ180 anyway.

    It's kind of an arbitrary/semantics sort of thing, so I have added a clarification/note to the Upgrade Pricing link to avoid any further confusion.

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    I think a good game plan is to work in three year cycles. I purchased a H4D-50 with 3 year lease finance in spring 2010 and I won't consider any change or "upgrade" for three years, that is until Spring 2013. I'm not sure what purpose would be served by even larger files: I like the new high rez screens on the new Phase backs, but as I usually shoot tethered, I'm not sure that is such a big deal either.
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Porpoise View Post
    In January I bought the P65+ instead of the Leaf 12 because of the 90% upgrade guarantee. They were the same price. Now 65% of the price of the IQ180 is more than 100% of my purchase price for the P65+. So don't feel to bad if you missed out on that upgrade guarantee. But I should have bought the Leaf 12 which would have given me 80% discount.
    What will the prices for the IQ1x0 do when all upgrade deals have been fulfilled?
    If you strait-up bought a P65+ (not upgrade/used/etc) after the 90% upgrade guarantee was in place than you are covered by that guarantee. This is different than someone who bought a P65+ for instance two years ago and has had two good years of use out of that gear (20 months of which it was the highest resolution back in the world). Your 90% guarantee means 90% of whatever you actually paid for your 65+ will be counted towards an upgrade to an IQ180.

    The "65+ = 65%" technically also covers you, but it's like you have a 90% off coupon and a 65% coupon and you can only use one of them - you'll of course use your 90% off coupon.

    The Aptus II 12 is 80mp and so would be a cross-grade to an IQ180. Cross grades are not covered by the "mp = %"

    No one can tell you with certainty about pricing in the future (not even Phase One). But based on pre-orders from just the last two days it seems it will sell very well at current prices and as it seems unlikely that any serious competition will arrive for this series of backs anytime soon downward pressure on pricing doesn't seem likely.

    These upgrades are not magical or giveaways. The final product, the IQ series, is an expensive and very valuable piece of gear which is best in class. Phase is offering phase owners who want to upgrade significantly more for their gear than they could receive on the open market for their backs and offering competitive owners (e.g. Hassy) an easy (or at least easier) way to switch over. In addition people who bought new in the last four months get 90% of their value towards an upgrade. That's about as good as it gets in the camera/back world.

    Here's the bottom line: can anyone show me an upgrade policy from any camera company which is more generous to existing owners?


    Quote Originally Posted by Porpoise View Post
    Does anybody know whether the focus mask is available during live view? That would really be great on an Alpa.
    Unknown at this time as that feature is still being finalized.

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I think a good game plan is to work in three year cycles. I purchased a H4D-50 with 3 year lease finance in spring 2010 and I won't consider any change or "upgrade" for three years, that is until Spring 2013. I'm not sure what purpose would be served by even larger files: I like the new high rez screens on the new Phase backs, but as I usually shoot tethered, I'm not sure that is such a big deal either.
    USB3/USB2 tethering would mean you could carry a smaller/lighter laptop such as a MacBookAir when traveling (e.g. your "Old Architecture" gallery)

    And the Retina LCD and In-Camera Live Preview should be enough to forgo the laptop altogether in situations where you're moving too fast or are in too tight/busy of a space to use a laptop to tether. (e.g. your Red Square Gallery)

    The built in IQLevel system would ensure that all your images are perfectly level - a good tripod/bubble-level gets you almost-perfect, the built in digital level and Capture One coordinate to take care of the rest and (optionally) auto-rotate your images that last fraction of a degree. (e.g. your "local countryside" gallery)

    The built in battery would allow much easier field use on a tech camera for significantly increased optical quality and movements for all of your landscape/interiors.

    The 1/1600th of a sec wireless flash sync without loss of light might be useful for your pouring liquids shots, allowing you to open the aperture for DOF effects and not have to worry about your working/focusing/room lights. (e.g. your food and drink shots)

    The Focus Mask would make it very easy for you to verify that you placed focus and have DOF where you wanted/expected even in really bright light and are keeping to a more casual style of shooting (e.g. XKEC event gallery)

    When hand holding in available light the sensor+ mode of the IQ180 would give you 20mp at up to ISO3200 (e.g. your "Rochester Dickens Festival") quite possibly removing the need for you to have a dSLR kit as I don't see see any fast moving sports/action shots in your galleries.

    Anyway, the point is there are a lot reasons why any particular photographer might consider an upgrade other than resolution. Especially this generational upgrade which is largely focused on usability/features rather than resolution (hence the 40/60 megapixel chips were also included in the new lineup).

    There is also sound logic to your statement about skipping a generation (or two) between upgrades. As with anything that costs money you need to step back and ask yourself "what am I getting for what I am paying" - NEVER upgrade just because there is something newer.

    :-)

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Looks like Phase One finally did give their backs the overhaul needed. The backs looks modern, nice LCD screen and "live-view" and some other minor changes.

    It seems however that Phase One are not aware of the Pentax 645D at all or do not consider it a competition. Maybe Pentax hurts Canon 1DsIII/Nikon D3x sales more than Phase One sales. Maybe Phase One clients are mostly wealthy amateurs who don't give a f**k about another $10.000 or few hundred fashion photographers who don't care if their camera bag costs 100.000 USD!

    Sigh!
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    following the bru-ha-ha is fun.
    It is so refreshing to see that Phase has come through with this LCD development. It must be encouraging for Phase to see how the announcement has been so well received! Kudos!





    "Here's the bottom line: can anyone show me an upgrade policy from any camera company which is more generous to existing owners?"

    Doug: since you asked: you can trade in an entire 39mp H blad toward the complete camera H4d-60 for $19k

    and all you need to do is morph on an I-phone

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    Doug: since you asked: you can trade in an entire 39mp H blad toward the complete camera H4d-60 for $19k
    Touché! The P45+ to IQ160 upgrade would be $20k.

    Granted I would argue the IQ160 has a LOT going for it that the H4D-60 does not (and a few things the H4D-60 has that the IQ160 does not).

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Touché! The P45+ to IQ160 upgrade would be $20k.

    Granted I would argue the IQ160 has a LOT going for it that the H4D-60 does not (and a few things the H4D-60 has that the IQ160 does not).
    Well lets not forget the BIG thing the H4D has which is TrueFocus. A highRes screen is nice but 'off the tripod' it does nothing to help focus, apart from telling you that you missed it!

    TrueFocus however is a real innovation rather than just an upgrade.

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    I would not know how TF works but I rarely miss focus anyway and would prefer the LCD tech in the Phase back. But that's me and i shoot everything so it is not just one style of shooting.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Boys and girls, if you'd like a peek behind the scenes, some pics from the global dealer launch just went up here:

    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gi...86092&v=photos

    Cheers,
    Siebel
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    so they all wear black to minimize reflections

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    so they all wear black to minimize reflections
    OT, but actually John, that's not as funny a comment as you think. Fact is on real product or fashion shoots where accurate color is important AND where reflectors are being used or where the product itself is reflective, wearing black or gray clothing is a wise practice for that very reason... I can tell you that nothing screws up a perfect product shot faster than a reflection from a bright red shirt.
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    OT, but actually John, that's not as funny a comment as you think. Fact is on real product or fashion shoots where accurate color is important AND where reflectors are being used or where the product itself is reflective, wearing black or gray clothing is a wise practice for that very reason... I can tell you that nothing screws up a perfect product shot faster than a reflection from a bright red shirt.
    I do the same thing when I'm photographing buildings at night, because I sometimes can't avoid being reflected in window glass (oh, how I miss my view camera and its shift movements!) and by wearing black, I can at least minimize my visibility.

    Of course, the flip-side is that when I'm standing behind my camera on a tripod setup in in the middle of the street, I have similarly minimized my visibility, so you pays your money...

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    OT, but actually John, that's not as funny a comment as you think. Fact is on real product or fashion shoots where accurate color is important AND where reflectors are being used or where the product itself is reflective, wearing black or gray clothing is a wise practice for that very reason... I can tell you that nothing screws up a perfect product shot faster than a reflection from a bright red shirt.
    I assisted a high-end art reproduction shoot at a private collector's estate of a collection of Rockwell originals. The client wanted reproductions in place while they were loaned to a museum for a year.

    We were all dressed like Ninjas.

    To say that high-end art reproduction is careful & precise is an understatement.

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    These upgrades are not magical or giveaways. The final product, the IQ series, is an expensive and very valuable piece of gear which is best in class. Phase is offering phase owners who want to upgrade significantly more for their gear than they could receive on the open market for their backs and offering competitive owners (e.g. Hassy) an easy (or at least easier) way to switch over. In addition people who bought new in the last four months get 90% of their value towards an upgrade. That's about as good as it gets in the camera/back world.
    The problem is, because the market is relatively small (a few hundred backs per year?) and a whole company with employees as well as a global dealer network needs to be financed, Phase One NEEDS to constantly create new products with a sufficient margin. This leads to the situation that one can buy a piece of equipment such as a Phase One Back for 45 000 USD in one year and two years down the road the system is worth half that price or even less. So even with upgrades (you'll always be in the ballpark of 10-20k as a "loyal" customer when you want to get the newest back) the depreciation of MFDBs is enormous.

    Basically, buying a digital back is a huge financial investment with little value protection. The actual value protection plan initiated after Photokina was a necessary measure to keep sales going since everybody was waiting for Phase One's next move, so this is a special bridge scenario.

    From a standpoint of innovation, one might say that the IQ series is a new "era of medium format digital" or on the other hand just some basic, long-awaited little updates around an already existing sensor technology. After all, Phase One differentiates itself from say Hasselblad primarily by the features around the existing image quality possibilites made accessible through Dalsa's actual offerings; in comparison Phase One may be more convenient, but I fail to see the revolutionary aspect of the IQ series, it is more so that all those new features are things that should have been there long ago in all manufacturer's backs (hey, they cost more than a nice car) and that the technologies involved are readily availbale in other products (iphone 4, modern nikon/canon).

    What now angers me a bit is, that for those updates "around the sensor", such as a better display or a usb3 port, one has to dish out that much money. Regardless how you spin it, the IQ series uses the same sensors as other brands and you pay a hefty premium for thing that don't enhance image quality in the core. If the iq160 had a dynamic range of 15 stops, or a three times higher frame rate etc. or lower noise/higher sensitivity, then I would see the "new era" but this isn't the case ...

    To make another point: why is it for example, that one cannot only send in his back to the factory and get a new housing for it, or an updated display, all this say for 5k? Red has this approach with their new Epic cameras. You won't have to pay for a new remote or viewfinder if you just want a new sensor and vice-versa. Customers who bough a Red One camera could for example send their cameras in and get a new MX sensor replaced for a fair price.

    The reason why we never will see this in MFDB in my view is simple: because of the market size and profitability requirements, there will never be a modular back upgrading possibility. You will always have a huge depreciation with your systems and will need to pay a lot for small updates.

    I already see it coming, crossgrading a new aptus 12 to an iq180 will cost somewhere between 10-20k ... and this is pobably just for getting a nicer screen and the other little improvements.

    Sigh, it indeed is a hopeless journey.

    Regards Paul

    PS: Doug, as soon as you know more about that crossgrading policy I'd be glad to hear from you!

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    wearing black or gray clothing is a wise practice for that very reason...
    One of first things you learning on workshops ran by good glam. photographers - never ever wear bright stuff or better yet - wear plain black t-shirt. For that very reason.

    Those who dont believe - can move palm in bright sun next to white piece of paper and try (haha) to see if it is still white in shot....

  22. #172
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    The "65+ = 65%" technically also covers you, but it's like you have a 90% off coupon and a 65% coupon and you can only use one of them - you'll of course use your 90% off
    As I understood, returning my P65+ will give me 90% of my puchase price of the P65+ or 65% of the price of the IQ180. The 90% is only interesting if the IQ180 is less than 38.5% more than the P65+. In my case, I expect to make a small profit on my recently purchased, new P65+. That must be the cheapest piece of hardware I ever used.

    As nice as the P65+ is on an Alpa, Phase One must have read our minds when they developed the IQ180. However, they missed: half weight, half size (no, not the sensor), half price and triple battery life.

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I assisted a high-end art reproduction shoot at a private collector's estate of a collection of Rockwell originals. The client wanted reproductions in place while they were loaned to a museum for a year.

    We were all dressed like Ninjas.

    To say that high-end art reproduction is careful & precise is an understatement.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    This conversation reminds me of a couple years ago when I was shooting in the CA Redwoods in January. The weather was great for the most part, cool if nit down right cold in the shade and shadows with bits of drizzle. Anyway I'm off to photograph the beautiful redwoods and dressed for warmth. Turns out I'm wearing mostly dark green. I've got the tripod all setup and shooting with the WRS standing about 5' off a path when I hear people coming towards me. Thinking I should at least acknowledge their presence I wait till they get close and say hello. Scared the holly crap out of the wife and the husband didn't fare much better. Never thought I blended that well.


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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    This conversation reminds me of a couple years ago when I was shooting in the CA Redwoods in January. The weather was great for the most part, cool if nit down right cold in the shade and shadows with bits of drizzle. Anyway I'm off to photograph the beautiful redwoods and dressed for warmth. Turns out I'm wearing mostly dark green. I've got the tripod all setup and shooting with the WRS standing about 5' off a path when I hear people coming towards me. Thinking I should at least acknowledge their presence I wait till they get close and say hello. Scared the holly crap out of the wife and the husband didn't fare much better. Never thought I blended that well.


    Sure, they were expecting tall, not just a human.
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Sure, they were expecting tall, not just a human.
    -bob
    I think Don's middle name might be Sasquatch...
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Certainly seems like a welcome "cross grade" path would be to send in say, my P40+ and have them fit the sensor into the new chassis. Likely that every circuit board would have to be new, and I don't know if the sensor is flow soldered to the other boards. In a perfect world this would be a good deal for me and Phase One, but probably not the case. At this point I have most of the focus issues out of the way and will continue happily with my Cambo RS and P40+ as I have in the past. Doesn't mean I won't snag a few extra Lotto tickets from time to time or hope for a good financial year that allows me to get an IQ140.
    In the end the new displays and features would be great, but aren't essential to keep shooting. When you think back 5, 10, or 20 years all of these medium format digital backs are nothing short of miraculous.
    Let the enablers begin!
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by ggriswold View Post
    Certainly seems like a welcome "cross grade" path would be to send in say, my P40+ and have them fit the sensor into the new chassis. Likely that every circuit board would have to be new, and I don't know if the sensor is flow soldered to the other boards. In a perfect world this would be a good deal for me and Phase One, but probably not the case. At this point I have most of the focus issues out of the way and will continue happily with my Cambo RS and P40+ as I have in the past. Doesn't mean I won't snag a few extra Lotto tickets from time to time or hope for a good financial year that allows me to get an IQ140.
    In the end the new displays and features would be great, but aren't essential to keep shooting. When you think back 5, 10, or 20 years all of these medium format digital backs are nothing short of miraculous.
    Let the enablers begin!
    George
    Sounds great. Unfortunately it's as realistic as trading your 2004 BMW in for a 2011 BMW by taking your engine out of the 2004 and putting it in an empty chassis of the 2011. It may be the most expensive component but it's not the only cost, especially when taking the R+D of redesigning a back from the ground up. The sensor is the *only* piece of electronics shared between the p+ and IQ series backs.

  28. #178
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Do NOT underestimate Sensor Plus even at 10 mpx on my P40+ i get outstanding image quality and honestly it looks more like 15 mpx cams. Noise is extremely well tamed as well. I do have a thread on this actually here

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379
    I'm with you on this Guy. I am convinced the P65+ Sensor+ is at least as sharp as 1dsIII/5dII and it seems pretty close to my d3x. I just chalked it up to not having an anti-aliasing filter to fuzzy things up and the larger sensor area to combat diffraction.

    That said, I find I rarely use it. With the better noise characteristics of the P65+ and latest round of noise reduction in C1, noiseware pro and Topaz deNoise I am routinely using ISO 200 and even 400 is useable at 300dpi.

  29. #179
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post

    ...

    NEVER upgrade just because there is something newer.
    I'm afraid I don't agree with that Doug. The great thing about Phase1 is they allow you to stay current at a reasonable price once your in the game.

    With an upgrade cycle of 2-3 years if you were to skip a cycle the chances of a failure increase dramatically. Factoring the cost of one failure into the mix the upgrade amortized over that cycle is insignificant.

    Of course if the MF gear is not your primary producer of income that changes the circumstances entirely.

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    maybe the new LCDs are great and fully usable. Fine then.
    In the DSLR-world those kind of new features are more or less a "free" upgrades... new camera models typically go for about the same prices as the respective predeccesor. The same goes for cars or any other products.
    So the price difference of the P65+ to the IQ160 is somewhat surprising.
    This is somewhere between misleading and plain wrong. By the time our friends at Canon or Nikon release a new model, the outgoing model is usually worth around 1/10th of it's original price. I also remind you that less than 12 months ago, a P65+ cost exactly what an IQ180 costs now. If we follow your car analogy, I would ask you to consider what the likes of GM, Toyota, etc do in the months before a new product launch - they like to call it a model runout in Oz, I don't know the term they use Stateside. Show me a DSLR dealer out there offering 65% trade in on a recently superceded top model - no matter how old or weather beaten it is. Then show me a car dealer who will do the same.
    BTW, Phase are not discontinuing the P+ series, it is continuing in parallel to the IQ series. Basically, you are being given the opportunity to buy a P65+, for example, for 10 grand less than I paid for mine.
    Frankly, I think Phase One should be applauded, not pilloried.

    Sorry to be so blunt, but this constant baying about MFDB pricing on the various forums is BORING!
    Siebel
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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    I'm afraid I don't agree with that Doug. The great thing about Phase1 is they allow you to stay current at a reasonable price once your in the game.

    With an upgrade cycle of 2-3 years if you were to skip a cycle the chances of a failure increase dramatically. Factoring the cost of one failure into the mix the upgrade amortized over that cycle is insignificant.

    Of course if the MF gear is not your primary producer of income that changes the circumstances entirely.

    I think upgrading is a very hard process to pin down. Obviously!

    There is something to the upgrade process as a financial consideration and investment protection decision. Example: Sometimes, there's a very aggressive upgrade price on a new product from your current model. If your model is more than 1 generation back, this could be a very temporary situation and the advantage may be soon lost (forever).

    So, some real thought has to go into are you someone who has a product that does exactly what you need it to (as opposed to what you might want it to) and pre-determine that you are typically going to run with that product for 5, 6 , 7 years? (very common with digital back users)

    Or are you someone who "likes to stay current" or someone whose photographic workflow and needs change more frequently? Or are you someone who is capable of completely losing your head and getting very juiced over a sexy new product? Probably the majority of this group here...

    In any case, it pays to keep an eye on the offers. But here's a couple examples of how someone might miss out if they're a more regular upgrader:

    In 2009, if you owned a Leaf Aptus 75 or a Sinar 75 (both valued at about $8K - $10K end user to end user street), you could receive $20,000 credit towards a P65+. I don't have firm upgrade values today on this same configuration, but my sense is that it will wind up around half that. And while the P65+ pricing has been reduced, it still will likely cost a good $4K - $6 more for the same transaction.

    At the same time, a P45+ was worth $25,000 in trade value towards a P65+ (net $14,990). Today, the net is $18,144.

    So sometimes, especially when products have been out more than a couple years, there are critical junctures where they shift from a great deal to a so-so deal.

    Newer products upgraded from still current or last generation products are usually pretty stable in terms of the pricing from launch forward a good while (especially with Phase One). But if you're holding a product that is more than one generation back, it is good to be alert for the right timing.


    Steve Hendrix
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  32. #182
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post

    Or are you someone who is capable of completely losing your head and getting very juiced over a sexy new product? Probably the majority of this group here...
    Well, I picked out this quote because it is so good. However the whole post is very good.

    On the upgrades what is so hard is just what you talk about, determining "is this THE right time to upgrade or should I wait to see what the next round of deals will bring.

    Do I need an IQ180 - no!!!! But given the current upgrade deal it seems better to move to the IQ180 over the IQ160.

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Well, I picked out this quote because it is so good. However the whole post is very good.

    On the upgrades what is so hard is just what you talk about, determining "is this THE right time to upgrade or should I wait to see what the next round of deals will bring.

    Do I need an IQ180 - no!!!! But given the current upgrade deal it seems better to move to the IQ180 over the IQ160.

    You're right, knowing the right time remains elusive.

    From our standpoint, maintaining pricing policy records that go back years on these products and having a sense of how they historically ebb and flow is helpful, but we still aren't always able to anticipate every left turn that is made.

    But usually, we can tell when they've taken a particularly aggressive stance. It doesn't always mean it is the very best deal that you'll wind up making, but it usually is or is at least close to it.

    We can also tell what part of the year or at what stage of the product life cycle they're more likely to be aggressive. Sometimes this is dictated by a competitive product as well as an upcoming new product of their own.

    At any rate, Dante was on to something.



    Steve Hendrix
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Phase One's upgrade policy is much more rational and transparent than other makers I can think of - these new backs have me very tempted to switch back (sic) to Phase One.

    I am looking forward to hearing how the IQ80 works on a tech camera!

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Peter , Terry is lending us her Arca for our tests with the IQ 180. You maybe in trouble here. I got a feeling it is going to scream on her Arca. I'm very afraid to even test this thing out . My wife is absolutely going to hire a hit man on me. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Peter A:

    We will also be testing the IQ 180 with the Arca Swiss , Cambo, and Alpa cameras at the first Capture Integration event in Atlanta Feb 8-9, 2011.

    Capture Integration is scheduling an event just like the one in Atlanta, except for all the Phase One folks, at our location in Miami where we will have a full day of hands on with customers. Then a social event that evening with Live Fashion Shoots on March 2. This will be followed by a day of "Serious Technical Training" on March 3, 2011. I will be attending both events.

    If you or anyone else has not seen our new series, watch for a city near you. We expect to take this new "Serious Technical Training" across the US with visits to 12 different cities. This new workshop series will allow you to get the latest information on Capture One 6, Ipad Tethering, Technical View Cameras and Optics, Flash Duration, and of course learn more about all the new Phase One IQ camera backs. We are just finalizing the dates and schedule. Check our website for update under our "events page"
    http://www.captureintegration.com/ou...coming-events/.


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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Phase One's upgrade policy is much more rational and transparent than other makers I can think of - these new backs have me very tempted to switch back (sic) to Phase One.

    I am looking forward to hearing how the IQ80 works on a tech camera!

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Peter , Terry is lending us her Arca for our tests with the IQ 180. You maybe in trouble here. I got a feeling it is going to scream on her Arca. I'm very afraid to even test this thing out . My wife is absolutely going to hire a hit man on me. LOL
    Thanks and I really look forward to your testing Guy (and thanks to Terry for lending you her Arca )- now get a real camera - the Alpa to round out teh comparisons

    I know the guys at CI are going to test the back on Arca and Alpa and I look forward to these as well.

    These new Phase backs are potentially a game changer for tech camera users - and yes I will be seriously looking at Phase One

    I can feel my Bank balance shrinking fast.

  38. #188
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Love to have a Alpa too. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    *UPDATE*


    Well, at least one important issue came out positively from this morning.


    Through yesterday, the upgrade policy towards Phase One IQ Series digital backs was as follows in terms of percent discount:

    *Phase One Plus Backs: The naming designation of the back (P45+ means 45% discount, even though the megapixel is only 39). On the other hand, P30+ owners only get 30%, although the megapixel count is actually 31 (we'll make up the difference, don't worry). The P30 is the only product that goes in the opposite direction {by 1%}.

    *Competitive Trade-Ins: The megapixel count determines the discount. So, a Hasselblad 39MP anything (CF-39, H3D-39, etc, counts for 39%).

    *Phase One non-Plus Backs: Prior to this morning Phase One non-Plus units had no megapixel or naming trade designation, and were assigned the same trade-in value as the newer generation, but entry level P20+. So, a P45 non-Plus, even though it was 39 megapixels, only generated a 20% discount. We complained about this. One obvious example - someone trading in a 1st generation H3D-39 could receive twice the discount as someone trading in a P45 non-Plus and both products originate from the same generation and are the same megapixel count. Not good.


    So, this morning Phase One has reversed course and agreed that all non-Plus Phase One products will now be considered eligible for the same discount as Phase One Plus products. The policy will be consistent, that regardless of Plus or non-Plus, the numerical naming itself on a Phase One product will dictate the discount.

    There has still not been any change of policy on crossgrades. Historically, Phase One has never had a crossgrade policy, so this remains an issue. However, from our standpoint, Capture Integration is not strictly bound by 3rd party pricing policies (meaning we can create our own workarounds), and in this case we can accept crossgrade trade-ins, but will have to handle this creatively on a case by case basis, which we frequently do anyway. So, for anyone interested in this path, please feel free to contact us and we can look at your situation, what you wish to do, and create an arrangement that is fair.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    no IQ back for me then

    15,000 upgrade does not worth a new LCD. I also do not need 80mp. 60mp is plenty for anything. Even billboard uses 10-50 dpi.

    My back is 7 months old and now I have to pay 15,000 more for new long due LCD. Life isnt fair haha.

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Steve, thanks a lot for the update. Nonetheless it would be cool if there was a path for Aptus 12 owners who want an IQ180. Since there's no IQ200, it is impossible to upgrade to an IQ series back in any form.

    Downgrading is not possible, crossgrading is not possible, so one is stuck with that back.

    On the other hand, Owners of an Aptus 10 can upgrade for a 56% reduction in price.

    I really want the fast previews, the high-res screen and the weather sealing features, sind that way I can leave a laptop at home.

    So this means Aptus 12 owners have no options to migrate, even though it's the same company?

    Thanks

    Paul

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Love to have a Alpa too. LOL
    If I wasn't in Europe at the moment I'd have been happy to grant your wish

    That said, anything you find with the Arca would absolutely apply to the Alpa. Just so long as you calibrate the back & back plate (or lens with the Arca I suppose).

  43. #193
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    *UPDATE*


    ....There has still not been any change of policy on crossgrades. Historically, Phase One has never had a crossgrade policy, so this remains an issue.
    Historically (as much as my middle-aged mind can recall) there really wasn't much of a reason to cross-grade change---or lateral upgrade. The jump from a P30 to P30+ or P45 to P45+, though "nice" wasn't exactly a stellar generational improvement. Some spit-shine polishing going to the P+ series, but really nothing earth shaking.

    I see the IQ series of MFDBs to be a major change in the playing field---not in resolution, but in usability. It offers the features that many have been clamoring for for quite some time. So "historically" there may not have been a crossgrade/lateral upgrade policy----because really there never was much need for one before. I think the IQ MFDB series changes things. We're at the point where in many respects that little boost in MP/resolution isn't the panacea that it once was. I have no desire to go from 60MP to 80MP. But I sure would like (hey Guy---like/need/want----it's all the same! Running shoes will help you more than that baseball helmet ) an IQ160 rather than the IQ180----but at an attractive lateral price (still profitable to Phase) yet not at the premium of upping the MP to a higher back.

    I know that this is an issue/policy that needs to come from the higher ups at Phase, but in the meantime want to remain confident in Capture Integration offering that bridge. The details is all part of why I choose CI to be my MFDB dealer. I hope CI can come up with something attractive to those interested only in a lateral/crossgrade.

    ken
    Last edited by kdphotography; 27th January 2011 at 08:33.

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Totally agree Ken on airplane ready to take off but the IQ is a game changer in functions and I want it. Going up is not needed but would be nice no doubt but the game changed and we need these crossovers now. Phase made these tech changes a big plus . So they need to change the game plan on this. I am strongly behind this effort.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    I have my picket sign up. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Historically (as much as my middle-aged mind can recall) there really wasn't much of a reason to cross-grade change---or lateral upgrade. The jump from a P30 to P30+ or P45 to P45+, though "nice" wasn't exactly a stellar generational improvement. Some spit-shine polishing going to the P+ series, but really nothing earth shaking.
    Ken, this is a really valid argument. I didn't realize that but it's true. I once owned a p30 and it never once came to my mind to upgrade to a p30+. I think the only difference was a better screen and one more stop of high iso ... but not worth paying a lot of money for ...

    @Steve, maybe this is an argument you guys could bring to the higher-ups' attention? Maybe during your sweet launching party?

    There indeed IS now a good reason for a p40+ user to upgrade to a new IQ140 - the changes are quite dramatic. Especially for tech camera users.

    Regards

    Paul

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    Ken, this is a really valid argument. I didn't realize that but it's true. I once owned a p30 and it never once came to my mind to upgrade to a p30+. I think the only difference was a better screen and one more stop of high iso ... but not worth paying a lot of money for ...

    @Steve, maybe this is an argument you guys could bring to the higher-ups' attention? Maybe during your sweet launching party?

    There indeed IS now a good reason for a p40+ user to upgrade to a new IQ140 - the changes are quite dramatic. Especially for tech camera users.

    Regards

    Paul

    I absolutely agree with the point Ken made. The IQ Series presents a different equation for crossgraders than in the past. We'll present this very valid perspective and maybe pilfer some passports at our launch on the 8th until we get our way!

    In the meantime, we will certainly be able to offer fair pricing to accommodate any crossgraders. We won't be able to publish a pricing list due to the way too many varied situations we'll be involved in to provide the crossgrade, but anyone can contact us by phone or email with their situation and we'll come up with a fair price.


    Steve Hendrix
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    ..afterthought.. i think we are about to see some serious surge in purchases of lottery tickets ... They really should get share in P1...

  49. #199
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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Steve,

    I agree 100% with Ken. I've been asking for an iPhone tether to get the functionality that is now in the new back, although they have gone somewhat better with the focus mask. I'm totally happy with the IQ from my P65+. As I often use an Alpa technical camera, going from a near useless display to iPhone+ quality and functionality would be really nice. But there won't be any noticeable difference in IQ between the 60 and 80 MP backs. And it's hard to justify $14k for adding an iPhone to my P65+. Especially since it's not that long ago I paid a similar amount to upgrade from the P45+.

    Hopefully P1 will understand this an have a reasonable lateral option.

    Paul




    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    I absolutely agree with the point Ken made. The IQ Series presents a different equation for crossgraders than in the past. We'll present this very valid perspective and maybe pilfer some passports at our launch on the 8th until we get our way!

    In the meantime, we will certainly be able to offer fair pricing to accommodate any crossgraders. We won't be able to publish a pricing list due to the way too many varied situations we'll be involved in to provide the crossgrade, but anyone can contact us by phone or email with their situation and we'll come up with a fair price.


    Steve Hendrix

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    Re: Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

    Hmm, guess my H10 just gained value as a "coupon". Kinda like "Cash for Clunkers"...or "Bucks for Backs" in this case.

    11% discount, or up to $4500 off? Hmm, I may have to part with it.

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