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Special Announcement: Phase One new IQ backs

jlm

Workshop Member
following the bru-ha-ha is fun.
It is so refreshing to see that Phase has come through with this LCD development. It must be encouraging for Phase to see how the announcement has been so well received! Kudos!





"Here's the bottom line: can anyone show me an upgrade policy from any camera company which is more generous to existing owners?"

Doug: since you asked: you can trade in an entire 39mp H blad toward the complete camera H4d-60 for $19k

and all you need to do is morph on an I-phone ;)
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Doug: since you asked: you can trade in an entire 39mp H blad toward the complete camera H4d-60 for $19k
Touché! The P45+ to IQ160 upgrade would be $20k.

Granted I would argue the IQ160 has a LOT going for it that the H4D-60 does not (and a few things the H4D-60 has that the IQ160 does not).
 

Aaron

New member
Touché! The P45+ to IQ160 upgrade would be $20k.

Granted I would argue the IQ160 has a LOT going for it that the H4D-60 does not (and a few things the H4D-60 has that the IQ160 does not).
Well lets not forget the BIG thing the H4D has which is TrueFocus. A highRes screen is nice but 'off the tripod' it does nothing to help focus, apart from telling you that you missed it!

TrueFocus however is a real innovation rather than just an upgrade.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I would not know how TF works but I rarely miss focus anyway and would prefer the LCD tech in the Phase back. But that's me and i shoot everything so it is not just one style of shooting.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
so they all wear black to minimize reflections ;)
OT, but actually John, that's not as funny a comment as you think. Fact is on real product or fashion shoots where accurate color is important AND where reflectors are being used or where the product itself is reflective, wearing black or gray clothing is a wise practice for that very reason... I can tell you that nothing screws up a perfect product shot faster than a reflection from a bright red shirt.
 

Audii-Dudii

Active member
OT, but actually John, that's not as funny a comment as you think. Fact is on real product or fashion shoots where accurate color is important AND where reflectors are being used or where the product itself is reflective, wearing black or gray clothing is a wise practice for that very reason... I can tell you that nothing screws up a perfect product shot faster than a reflection from a bright red shirt.
I do the same thing when I'm photographing buildings at night, because I sometimes can't avoid being reflected in window glass (oh, how I miss my view camera and its shift movements!) and by wearing black, I can at least minimize my visibility.

Of course, the flip-side is that when I'm standing behind my camera on a tripod setup in in the middle of the street, I have similarly minimized my visibility, so you pays your money...
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
OT, but actually John, that's not as funny a comment as you think. Fact is on real product or fashion shoots where accurate color is important AND where reflectors are being used or where the product itself is reflective, wearing black or gray clothing is a wise practice for that very reason... I can tell you that nothing screws up a perfect product shot faster than a reflection from a bright red shirt.
I assisted a high-end art reproduction shoot at a private collector's estate of a collection of Rockwell originals. The client wanted reproductions in place while they were loaned to a museum for a year.

We were all dressed like Ninjas.

To say that high-end art reproduction is careful & precise is an understatement.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
These upgrades are not magical or giveaways. The final product, the IQ series, is an expensive and very valuable piece of gear which is best in class. Phase is offering phase owners who want to upgrade significantly more for their gear than they could receive on the open market for their backs and offering competitive owners (e.g. Hassy) an easy (or at least easier) way to switch over. In addition people who bought new in the last four months get 90% of their value towards an upgrade. That's about as good as it gets in the camera/back world.
The problem is, because the market is relatively small (a few hundred backs per year?) and a whole company with employees as well as a global dealer network needs to be financed, Phase One NEEDS to constantly create new products with a sufficient margin. This leads to the situation that one can buy a piece of equipment such as a Phase One Back for 45 000 USD in one year and two years down the road the system is worth half that price or even less. So even with upgrades (you'll always be in the ballpark of 10-20k as a "loyal" customer when you want to get the newest back) the depreciation of MFDBs is enormous.

Basically, buying a digital back is a huge financial investment with little value protection. The actual value protection plan initiated after Photokina was a necessary measure to keep sales going since everybody was waiting for Phase One's next move, so this is a special bridge scenario.

From a standpoint of innovation, one might say that the IQ series is a new "era of medium format digital" or on the other hand just some basic, long-awaited little updates around an already existing sensor technology. After all, Phase One differentiates itself from say Hasselblad primarily by the features around the existing image quality possibilites made accessible through Dalsa's actual offerings; in comparison Phase One may be more convenient, but I fail to see the revolutionary aspect of the IQ series, it is more so that all those new features are things that should have been there long ago in all manufacturer's backs (hey, they cost more than a nice car) and that the technologies involved are readily availbale in other products (iphone 4, modern nikon/canon).

What now angers me a bit is, that for those updates "around the sensor", such as a better display or a usb3 port, one has to dish out that much money. Regardless how you spin it, the IQ series uses the same sensors as other brands and you pay a hefty premium for thing that don't enhance image quality in the core. If the iq160 had a dynamic range of 15 stops, or a three times higher frame rate etc. or lower noise/higher sensitivity, then I would see the "new era" but this isn't the case ...

To make another point: why is it for example, that one cannot only send in his back to the factory and get a new housing for it, or an updated display, all this say for 5k? Red has this approach with their new Epic cameras. You won't have to pay for a new remote or viewfinder if you just want a new sensor and vice-versa. Customers who bough a Red One camera could for example send their cameras in and get a new MX sensor replaced for a fair price.

The reason why we never will see this in MFDB in my view is simple: because of the market size and profitability requirements, there will never be a modular back upgrading possibility. You will always have a huge depreciation with your systems and will need to pay a lot for small updates.

I already see it coming, crossgrading a new aptus 12 to an iq180 will cost somewhere between 10-20k ... and this is pobably just for getting a nicer screen and the other little improvements.

Sigh, it indeed is a hopeless journey.

Regards Paul

PS: Doug, as soon as you know more about that crossgrading policy I'd be glad to hear from you!
 

SergeiR

New member
wearing black or gray clothing is a wise practice for that very reason...
One of first things you learning on workshops ran by good glam. photographers - never ever wear bright stuff or better yet - wear plain black t-shirt. For that very reason.

Those who dont believe - can move palm in bright sun next to white piece of paper and try (haha) to see if it is still white in shot....
 
P

Porpoise

Guest
The "65+ = 65%" technically also covers you, but it's like you have a 90% off coupon and a 65% coupon and you can only use one of them - you'll of course use your 90% off
As I understood, returning my P65+ will give me 90% of my puchase price of the P65+ or 65% of the price of the IQ180. The 90% is only interesting if the IQ180 is less than 38.5% more than the P65+. In my case, I expect to make a small profit on my recently purchased, new P65+. That must be the cheapest piece of hardware I ever used. :D

As nice as the P65+ is on an Alpa, Phase One must have read our minds when they developed the IQ180. However, they missed: half weight, half size (no, not the sensor), half price and triple battery life. :LOL:
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
I assisted a high-end art reproduction shoot at a private collector's estate of a collection of Rockwell originals. The client wanted reproductions in place while they were loaned to a museum for a year.

We were all dressed like Ninjas.

To say that high-end art reproduction is careful & precise is an understatement.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

This conversation reminds me of a couple years ago when I was shooting in the CA Redwoods in January. The weather was great for the most part, cool if nit down right cold in the shade and shadows with bits of drizzle. Anyway I'm off to photograph the beautiful redwoods and dressed for warmth. Turns out I'm wearing mostly dark green. I've got the tripod all setup and shooting with the WRS standing about 5' off a path when I hear people coming towards me. Thinking I should at least acknowledge their presence I wait till they get close and say hello. Scared the holly crap out of the wife and the husband didn't fare much better. Never thought I blended that well.


:D
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
This conversation reminds me of a couple years ago when I was shooting in the CA Redwoods in January. The weather was great for the most part, cool if nit down right cold in the shade and shadows with bits of drizzle. Anyway I'm off to photograph the beautiful redwoods and dressed for warmth. Turns out I'm wearing mostly dark green. I've got the tripod all setup and shooting with the WRS standing about 5' off a path when I hear people coming towards me. Thinking I should at least acknowledge their presence I wait till they get close and say hello. Scared the holly crap out of the wife and the husband didn't fare much better. Never thought I blended that well.


:D
Sure, they were expecting tall, not just a human.
-bob
 

ggriswold

New member
Certainly seems like a welcome "cross grade" path would be to send in say, my P40+ and have them fit the sensor into the new chassis. Likely that every circuit board would have to be new, and I don't know if the sensor is flow soldered to the other boards. In a perfect world this would be a good deal for me and Phase One, but probably not the case. At this point I have most of the focus issues out of the way and will continue happily with my Cambo RS and P40+ as I have in the past. Doesn't mean I won't snag a few extra Lotto tickets from time to time or hope for a good financial year that allows me to get an IQ140.
In the end the new displays and features would be great, but aren't essential to keep shooting. When you think back 5, 10, or 20 years all of these medium format digital backs are nothing short of miraculous.
Let the enablers begin!
George
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Certainly seems like a welcome "cross grade" path would be to send in say, my P40+ and have them fit the sensor into the new chassis. Likely that every circuit board would have to be new, and I don't know if the sensor is flow soldered to the other boards. In a perfect world this would be a good deal for me and Phase One, but probably not the case. At this point I have most of the focus issues out of the way and will continue happily with my Cambo RS and P40+ as I have in the past. Doesn't mean I won't snag a few extra Lotto tickets from time to time or hope for a good financial year that allows me to get an IQ140.
In the end the new displays and features would be great, but aren't essential to keep shooting. When you think back 5, 10, or 20 years all of these medium format digital backs are nothing short of miraculous.
Let the enablers begin!
George
Sounds great. Unfortunately it's as realistic as trading your 2004 BMW in for a 2011 BMW by taking your engine out of the 2004 and putting it in an empty chassis of the 2011. It may be the most expensive component but it's not the only cost, especially when taking the R+D of redesigning a back from the ground up. The sensor is the *only* piece of electronics shared between the p+ and IQ series backs.
 

etrump

Well-known member
Do NOT underestimate Sensor Plus even at 10 mpx on my P40+ i get outstanding image quality and honestly it looks more like 15 mpx cams. Noise is extremely well tamed as well. I do have a thread on this actually here

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379
I'm with you on this Guy. I am convinced the P65+ Sensor+ is at least as sharp as 1dsIII/5dII and it seems pretty close to my d3x. I just chalked it up to not having an anti-aliasing filter to fuzzy things up and the larger sensor area to combat diffraction.

That said, I find I rarely use it. With the better noise characteristics of the P65+ and latest round of noise reduction in C1, noiseware pro and Topaz deNoise I am routinely using ISO 200 and even 400 is useable at 300dpi.
 

etrump

Well-known member
...

NEVER upgrade just because there is something newer.
I'm afraid I don't agree with that Doug. The great thing about Phase1 is they allow you to stay current at a reasonable price once your in the game.

With an upgrade cycle of 2-3 years if you were to skip a cycle the chances of a failure increase dramatically. Factoring the cost of one failure into the mix the upgrade amortized over that cycle is insignificant.

Of course if the MF gear is not your primary producer of income that changes the circumstances entirely.
 

goesbang

Member
maybe the new LCDs are great and fully usable. Fine then.
In the DSLR-world those kind of new features are more or less a "free" upgrades... new camera models typically go for about the same prices as the respective predeccesor. The same goes for cars or any other products.
So the price difference of the P65+ to the IQ160 is somewhat surprising.
This is somewhere between misleading and plain wrong. By the time our friends at Canon or Nikon release a new model, the outgoing model is usually worth around 1/10th of it's original price. I also remind you that less than 12 months ago, a P65+ cost exactly what an IQ180 costs now. If we follow your car analogy, I would ask you to consider what the likes of GM, Toyota, etc do in the months before a new product launch - they like to call it a model runout in Oz, I don't know the term they use Stateside. Show me a DSLR dealer out there offering 65% trade in on a recently superceded top model - no matter how old or weather beaten it is. Then show me a car dealer who will do the same.
BTW, Phase are not discontinuing the P+ series, it is continuing in parallel to the IQ series. Basically, you are being given the opportunity to buy a P65+, for example, for 10 grand less than I paid for mine.
Frankly, I think Phase One should be applauded, not pilloried.

Sorry to be so blunt, but this constant baying about MFDB pricing on the various forums is BORING! :shocked:
 
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