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Thread: Phase One => not for photographers

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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Now, if I had all the money fotografz has spent on cameras...

    So do I

    You know what's funny ... over the years I had slowly and carefully collected old Leica rangefinder cameras, including some really rare one's bought originally for a decent price that sky-rocketed in value. When I sold those off before the big financial bust, the profit funded almost anything I wanted to buy. I'm not rich, the people that bought those Leicas were rich.

    I thought it odd that non-user precious little pampered cameras paid for a lot of my current high-end user gear.

    -Marc

  2. #102
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    OK, Marc, I'd like all the money you've spent on cameras and your eye for an investment

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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    I am a poor guy and just lost money on H4D-60 which is outdated now and those Phase One is the future, i really don't know if i should sell my H4D-60 then i will not have anymore money to buy even IQ140 [and i only look at IQ180 or higher].

    I hope i can have money to buy more MFDB.
    Tareq

  4. #104
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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Marc,

    Earlier in this thread you mentioned you'd keep the Hasselblad 39/Multi Shot, because of a review you read over the H4D/60 Then in another thread recently, you stated that you just took delivery of an H4D/60. What changed?

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    Member Hank Graber's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    A small company like Phase can not hope to make a profit selling backs in the price range of the top end Canikons. The big DSLR makers can do it because they have a mass market. Thank God for rich amateurs as they actually keep the costs down by providing a larger market and keeping a broader range of products solvent. Without them there would be less choice and higher prices.

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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Marc,

    Earlier in this thread you mentioned you'd keep the Hasselblad 39/Multi Shot, because of a review you read over the H4D/60 Then in another thread recently, you stated that you just took delivery of an H4D/60. What changed?
    Based on that review/opinion of the MS verses the 60, I delayed my trade/order for the 60 and requested a demo to test it myself.

    I found that for my applications, the 60 equaled the MS by means of shear file size (I shot some GM fabric samples with both cameras to test for Morie'), and for single shot applications it is obviously better (I posted a portrait test shot from the 60 with a 200% crop on a thread here on GetDpi). Plus the 60 is a H4D with True Focus which I missed having after selling my H4D/40. So I then went ahead and traded up using an old Mamiya RZ body and the CF/MS back.

    -Marc

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Oh that's right, I do remember that 200% crop. Thanks.

  8. #108
    Senior Member leicashot's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by Professional View Post
    I am a poor guy and just lost money on H4D-60 which is outdated now and those Phase One is the future, i really don't know if i should sell my H4D-60 then i will not have anymore money to buy even IQ140 [and i only look at IQ180 or higher].

    I hope i can have money to buy more MFDB.
    Wow sounds like you have too much money for your own good

    Guess me recieving a new H4D-40 (today) is like buying a Volvo from 1970

  9. #109
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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by Professional View Post
    I am a poor guy and just lost money on H4D-60 which is outdated now and those Phase One is the future, i really don't know if i should sell my H4D-60 then i will not have anymore money to buy even IQ140 [and i only look at IQ180 or higher].

    I hope i can have money to buy more MFDB.
    I hope you are just kidding. If not, get real.

    What in God's name are you shooting? And what will you do when the 100 meg arrives, with all new cameras ... which will then require all new lenses because they are not up to such resolution?

    I have a H4D/60 ... it's already overkill for much of what I could ever hope to be shooting ... for the speculative remaining %, I can rent. I can see 80 meg for really special applications or landscape artists that sell large prints, maybe even 100 meg someday for super applications like institutions need and scientific use ... or for the Royal Society of Pixel Peepers

    Whew, the insanity is contagious. "Abandon Hope" is an understatement

    -Marc

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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I hope you are just kidding. If not, get real.

    What in God's name are you shooting? And what will you do when the 100 meg arrives, with all new cameras ... which will then require all new lenses because they are not up to such resolution?

    I have a H4D/60 ... it's already overkill for much of what I could ever hope to be shooting ... for the speculative remaining %, I can rent. I can see 80 meg for really special applications or landscape artists that sell large prints, maybe even 100 meg someday for super applications like institutions need and scientific use ... or for the Royal Society of Pixel Peepers

    Whew, the insanity is contagious. "Abandon Hope" is an understatement

    -Marc
    The only issue is the upgrade pricing makes the 80mp back the one to buy even if it is a bit of overkill. The price difference between the IQ160 and IQ180 is small (once you figure in the discounts) and the IQ180 gives you a 20mp sensor plus file vs. 15mp

  11. #111
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by Professional View Post
    I am a poor guy and just lost money on H4D-60 which is outdated now...
    I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but whatever, I'm never quite sure if I should laugh or weep when I read this stuff.

    I know many photographers at the very top of the profession who use nothing more exotic than 5Ds or Pee 21s.

    Actually I laugh, it's got to be better than crying.

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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Graber View Post
    A small company like Phase can not hope to make a profit selling backs in the price range of the top end Canikons. The big DSLR makers can do it because they have a mass market. Thank God for rich amateurs as they actually keep the costs down by providing a larger market and keeping a broader range of products solvent. Without them there would be less choice and higher prices.

    Right, but this is only one side. On the other side a small company has less clutter in its overhead and is more swift and effective in its actions. Thus, has less people to pay for. For a small target market it may balance cost of R+D vs. cost implementation. I am just guessing, but somewhere is the tipping point.

    I dearly hope Canon will enter the MFD market and then let us see how Phase can do with some competition. Or even better Sony - their chip with image stabilisation on a ressurected Contax camera. Now, that would be interesting. All under 10K. Sony can do it.

  13. #113
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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    The only issue is the upgrade pricing makes the 80mp back the one to buy even if it is a bit of overkill. The price difference between the IQ160 and IQ180 is small (once you figure in the discounts) and the IQ180 gives you a 20mp sensor plus file vs. 15mp
    Why would they even offer the 160 then? Just curious.

    -Marc

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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Why would they even offer the 160 then? Just curious.

    -Marc
    I don't know but the retail price of the two are $7K apart. Then if you are trading from a P40+ take 40% off so the price difference is $4200. So, $4,200 is not insignificant but once you are up in the stratosphere of pricing it doesn't bother the ulcer you've already given yourself.

    So, honestly I can't see why I wouldn't do it and why would be the major reason to get the IQ160?

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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    I don't know but the retail price of the two are $7K apart. Then if you are trading from a P40+ take 40% off so the price difference is $4200. So, $4,200 is not insignificant but once you are up in the stratosphere of pricing it doesn't bother the ulcer you've already given yourself.

    So, honestly I can't see why I wouldn't do it and why would be the major reason to get the IQ160?
    Understood. Makes sense.

    I seriously debated even getting the H4D/60 ... and were it not for some of my commercial applications and pixel peeping Art Directors/Photo Buyers I sure wouldn't need it.
    What I have already found out in the short time I've shot with it, is that it really places heavier demands on technique ... DOF is different and hand holding, which I'm pretty good at, has to be rethought ... or all that additional resolution is just squandered. I think Jack had mentioned something to that effect back when he went for his P60+. Other than in the studio, that doesn't fit my shooting style or subject matter as well as the H4D/40 did ... which cuts down the versatility of the way I have been shooting with MFD to date. But now I have the S2 doing that work.

    What I really wish for is a full 645 sensor with 40 meg. and a really good ISO 1600 as opposed to the crop frame 40s. Never satisified ...

    -Marc

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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    "...or all that additional resolution is just squandered."

    but it is there when you need it. same sort of argument applies to shooting wider than you need since the res will support cropping.

    only drawback of the 80 is the larger files and what that might affect. maybe this is where sensor + will shine

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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    In fact i am happy with H4D-60, i was like a crazy with 39mp before, and i really don't have things that i need 80-100mp, but when i come here and see people who were using 22 up to 39mp in the past upgrading to 40-60-80mp then i keep thinking what was limited with 20-40 that they want to go higher up to 80mp or more? I got prints about 40x60 from my 5D and 1Ds3, both were good but not great as i would like, and really looking at those prints making me to plan to buy a 40-60" printers and never look at 24" printers, so i feel the higher mp i can get the better, and i know many here will say that they got prints up to 60x80" out of 10-25mp cameras, if so then i really would like to know why some getting 40 and 50 and 60 and even 80mp nowadays?!!!
    Tareq

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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    I am happy with 40mp. However, most change overs to new models seem to require an upgrade...and I think that is how you have people that had 39mp going to 60 going to 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professional View Post
    In fact i am happy with H4D-60, i was like a crazy with 39mp before, and i really don't have things that i need 80-100mp, but when i come here and see people who were using 22 up to 39mp in the past upgrading to 40-60-80mp then i keep thinking what was limited with 20-40 that they want to go higher up to 80mp or more? I got prints about 40x60 from my 5D and 1Ds3, both were good but not great as i would like, and really looking at those prints making me to plan to buy a 40-60" printers and never look at 24" printers, so i feel the higher mp i can get the better, and i know many here will say that they got prints up to 60x80" out of 10-25mp cameras, if so then i really would like to know why some getting 40 and 50 and 60 and even 80mp nowadays?!!!

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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    I am happy with 40mp. However, most change overs to new models seem to require an upgrade...and I think that is how you have people that had 39mp going to 60 going to 80.
    True, i really impressed with H4 over H3 regardless of the mp.
    Tareq

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    Member Hank Graber's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Karma View Post
    I dearly hope Canon will enter the MFD market and then let us see how Phase can do with some competition. Or even better Sony - their chip with image stabilisation on a ressurected Contax camera. Now, that would be interesting. All under 10K. Sony can do it.
    The Sony DSLR is now twice as many MP as what used to be the top of the line MFD back a few years ago. Equipment is not stopping anyone from competing. Vision is what clients pay for -not kit.

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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    I don't know but the retail price of the two are $7K apart. Then if you are trading from a P40+ take 40% off so the price difference is $4200. So, $4,200 is not insignificant but once you are up in the stratosphere of pricing it doesn't bother the ulcer you've already given yourself.

    So, honestly I can't see why I wouldn't do it and why would be the major reason to get the IQ160?

    Main reason for the IQ160 would be the faster shooting speed. And $4,300 is nothing to sneeze at - one could consider that you get an Arca Swiss RM2D for that difference (well, it might arrive about the same time as your IQ160...)



    Steve Hendrix
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    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Main reason for the IQ160 would be the faster shooting speed. And $4,300 is nothing to sneeze at - one could consider that you get an Arca Swiss RM2D for that difference (well, it might arrive about the same time as your IQ160...)
    Steve Hendrix
    Ummmmm.....yes true but with a big gaping hole where the lens would fit

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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Graber View Post
    The Sony DSLR is now twice as many MP as what used to be the top of the line MFD back a few years ago. Equipment is not stopping anyone from competing. Vision is what clients pay for -not kit.

    Well, yes, if by a few years you mean 10 years....


    http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/988393279.html



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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Main reason for the IQ160 would be the faster shooting speed. And $4,300 is nothing to sneeze at - one could consider that you get an Arca Swiss RM2D for that difference (well, it might arrive about the same time as your IQ160...)



    Steve Hendrix
    Thanks Steve, that was the point I was trying to make ... all these cameras are waaaaay up there in IQ, so the determining factor isn't just meg count ... it is performance matched to application needs. My goodness, I couldn't believe the impact on post work when dropping 200 full frame 60 meg files onto my computer compared to 40 meg crop frame. One more step up and I'm going to need to replace my 3 year old computer ...

    -Marc

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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    only drawback of the 80 is the larger files and what that might affect.
    I just put a new 24Tb Raid 6 array in my workstation, so should be ok for awhile!
    (and yes - I have backup for it, too)

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    Re: Phase One => not for photographers

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Thanks Steve, that was the point I was trying to make ... all these cameras are waaaaay up there in IQ, so the determining factor isn't just meg count ... it is performance matched to application needs. My goodness, I couldn't believe the impact on post work when dropping 200 full frame 60 meg files onto my computer compared to 40 meg crop frame. One more step up and I'm going to need to replace my 3 year old computer ...

    -Marc

    Marc -

    Even though we do sell the *latest and the greatest*, we also sell the *older and once bolder*, so we have a healthy amount of respect for whatever digital back someone might be using, as log as it fulfills the purpose for which it was bought to fulfill. But when it comes to computers.....that 3 year old thing is a dinosaur! Especially in your hands, your poor computer thought he had it easy a couple years ago...



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    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
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