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Phase One => not for photographers

Hauxon

Member
Since everyone here is so extremely excited about the new backs I like to spoil the party with boring discussing about marketing/price policy. This just NEEDS to be discussed. To me Phase One is heading in the same direction as Leica. The targeted customer is a wealthy amateur and few hundred pros working for corporate organizations (able to justify extreme expanses). There's no vision of expanding the business to the mass of photographers who might actually benefit from owning such an equipment. I'm partially wrong about Phase One not wanting to expand their user base, they bought Leaf! With the current price structure the only way to get more customers is buying the competition. The upgrade policies are a joke and a result of overpricing. The market for worn novelty items is small to non existent. You buy something for $45.000 and a year or two later you want to buy the new model witch also costs $45.000. The only possible buyers of the old back are other rich guys, and they don't want old stuff. The only way for Phase to continue selling backs is allowing people to trade-in (and accepting a car price depreciation ).

I understand the discussion may not be popular since since many users of this forum users belong to the target group. I belong to the group who sell prints and occasional image for advertising to finance the my gear (+ salary, rent etc. ). I might of course buy some old back some rich guy has no interest in anymore and will probably do someday. What bothers me is why companies like Phase One seem to have no interest in selling their products to me (me being most people :D ) .

Please do not feel offended, many in here are fine photographers and even some have enough business to pay for such equipment. I just feel something is wrong when the best photographic equipment in the world is marketed as novelty items rather than a tool for talented photographers.

Hrannar Orn Hauksson
 

Christopher

Active member
I think one interesting question would be, how much was it to upgrade from a P45 to a P45+ and how much was it from a P45+ to a P65+? Sure it would be great to buy a 40MP back for 10k or a 60MP back for under 20k, however that is not happening as long as there is no real pressure. I have the feeling that phase one will do really well with these new back and I'm not sure that they would make more money by selling it at lower prices.
 

Hauxon

Member
The upgrade/trade-in system is just a result of how wrong the original model is. It's just like selling an old BMW 750, nobody want's it.

You are true about not being a pressure from competition to lower the price since there is (almost) none. The price point will continue to be sky high unless they plan to sell more units. Maybe it's just too much of a risk for Phase to change their business model.

The only price vice competition is the Pentax 645D. I could never justify to my business buying the IQ140 for $22.000 when I can have the same quality for $10.000. But like I said before, I have never been a target customer for Phase.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
I tend to disagree on the basic premise.
Anything you can but just about is offered in a range from top to bottom of the market.
It is not clear to me that there exists adequate market elasticity for top-of-the-line digital medium format gear to provide for profitable operation at significantly lower price points. Sure a bit of a lower price would be nice, but in order for the gear to be "mass market" it would need to be priced at only a fraction.
Have you looked at the prices of the newer Canon and Nikon lenses? They are about the highest volume one might expect, but as they are revised to perform better in critical digital applications, their prices are increased and often nearly doubled.
You as a consumer have the choice of buying wine at six bucks a bottle or at almost any price you can imagine. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

It would be great if I could get a new Bugatti Veyron for $40,000 but it just won't happen.
 

Hauxon

Member
Bob here you are comparing a photographic instrument to luxury items like Bugatty and expensive wine, proving my point. Right?
 

Christopher

Active member
well no, you could say the same about any good German car :p A BMW, Mercedes, Audio, Porsche is more expensive than a lot of other cars. However, they are doing really well.

Oh and they are not just selling to a few people, who have lots of money, they actually sell lots of company cars.

For some, who need a real Tech Camera, the Pentax is no option at all, they could sell it for 5000 and I would not be interested. It just sucks for some photographic approaches.
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
Well, the typical answer of a Phase One rep. with regard to your criticism seems to be: "Then our product is not for you, go buy something else". It's the arrogance of the market leader. They know you want their product and they know you can't get a compareable fix elsewhere and they know they can ask a pretty penny for it too.

The only salvation now would be some competition. But as far as I can see, Hasselblad will not be able to compete with its backs in the near future. The fact that they lost the anti-competition lawsuit puts them in an even more dangerous situation, since they must now allow Phase One's backs to be compatible with their camera bodies.

Only if Hasselblad innovates, re-invigourates its lens line (which comes to its limits with the new sensors), and puts forth a competitive price point will we see lower prices. Phase One will now reap the benefits of its R&D and hence some sweet margins on their products. Leaf is effectively relegated to a second-class seat now.

...

Hasselblad, where are you, come back and kick some ***!
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Bob here you are comparing a photographic instrument to luxury items like Bugatty and expensive wine, proving my point. Right?
Not really.
Some photographers actually have a need for the new high end backs.
For some it is a luxury.
For some it is a convenience.
Same can afford it due to assets.
Some can afford it due to cash flow.
Some can't afford it and just need to buy what they can.
If your personal photographic equipment depreciation budget is in the range of $1000+ per month, than you may be able to afford it.
If not, then you can't.
There are used and lesser backs available on the market for much less that still do a great job, just not as nifty keen as the latest greatest.

Personally I do a lot of shooting with a sub $1000 Panasonic kit which gives me super usable images of moderate resolution and nice files, although not nearly as nice as the Phase files.
When I need BIG on the other hand, then I need to pay for it.
Be assured that technology will trickle down over time, you just have to wait for it to hit a price point that is acceptable for you.
The biggest, fastest, best, most elegant, most capable stuff has ALWAYS been more expensive and always will.
There are photographers who drink beer, some who drink single malts.
The volume at the high end is never very large, which forces the enormous r&d and expensive distribution channels to be amortized over fewer units. Economies of manufacturing scale just don't happen at these volumes.
I would think that perhaps a Nikon D3x might be just as much if not more "overpriced" than a high end Phase One back or a Leica S2.
Lots of folks get annoyed when new nifty stuff is announced that they can't afford.
-bob
 

Georg Baumann

Subscriber Member
Greetings,

Off topic: Iceland awwww.... how I long to see this neighbor of mine. :thumbup:

On topic: Your main point is what? P1 not going for the broader market in terms of pricing right?

Imho, the past few years were shaking up the entire market, long established players were on their knees, others survived by the skin of their teeth, and on top the IQ gap between MFDB and DSLR got somewhat smaller. This shake up is anything from over, and it is a constant battle to make it in this market. yes, P1 made some very good decisions that allowed them to gain and maintain market leader position in my opinion, and on this position you have many benefits, but extreme risks at the same time to deal with.

You are not most people btw. ;) You sell prints to make a living if I understood that correct.

In this position you have to ask yourself a question. Can I afford not to buy into a Phase One system? :D This questions should not be answered by you, but your prospective buyers, if you get my drift.

Personally, I am convinced that photography as we know it is going to change so drastically in the next few years that our work today might be the work of a species on the brink of extinction. The reason I am saying that has a historical example, when photography came up in Paris, in one year alone around 30,000 street artists lost their entire income.

I think we are moving towards such an extinction event eventually as well. But this is just my own line of thinking for possible future scenarios.

Back to the present, I would say that phase one is very much for photographers for one reason, it is made by people with a passion for it and people who are very much into photography themselves, this might sound like a natural assumption for a company in this business, but trust me, it is not!

The dilemma you describe however, I can understand well. Got the T-shirt, have the cap. I imagine a musician who has a very good standup Piano at his disposal, longing for that Steinway. I am tempted to say to him, 'Look, Scriabin stays Scriabin, or does the composition improve if you play it on your Piano or a Boesendorfer or Steinway, it does not!'

Having said that.... walking in Iceland with my headphones on listening to Scriabin and shooting for weeks....awwww. :)

Best
Georg

P.S. Please send my warm regards to Birgitta J. if you happen to know her. :)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Ahh, my favorite current events subject. :watch:

Pricing is based on what the market will bear and level of demand, not our own personal wish list. I'm sure Phase One will be able to sell everything they can make for a good while ... and if that was a miscalculation then the prices will drop ... but I doubt it. These things aren't Canons or Nikons, the quantity is minuscule in comparison.

Frankly, most of the professional photographers I have known, and worked with as an art director, aren't on the must have the latest greatest, merry-go-round. That is far more the domain of the enthusiast market IMO. Sure, Pros buy the best ... if they consistently need it for the job at hand, but not as many as one would assume ... rentals being the more financially sane option.

The trade up notion is a stroke of genius, but its value relies on used prices in the marketplace dropping like a stone with a barbell chained to it. In reality, if you buy a $20K, unit and a year or two later pay an additional $20K to upgrade it ... you've sunk $40K into photo gear ... whether you needed it or not. Fear of losing even more used value drives a lot of these trade-up purchases as much as actual real world value received as it relates to applications.

All this hubbub and frenzy made me stop and personally reevaluate what the Hell I was doing. I had a H4D/60 on order ready for delivery, and then I read reviews saying the H2F/39MS I already own produces as good or better IQ for the applications I use the camera for. :loco:

Time for a total rethink.

I also do not agree that Phase One is headed for Leica Land either. Frankly, I wish it were. Leica nut job enthusiasts, ever increasing prices, and scarcity keeps used prices very solid for many of their high ticket items. I've never lost much on the red dot.

Anyway, around and around we go, and where it stops nobody knows :ROTFL:

-Marc
 

Mike M

New member
The first time that I ever looked at a photography forum was about 3 years ago. I surfed through the endless galleries and conversations and couldn't figure out how anybody could possibly be making money shooting any of it. It was as if every discussion revolved around types of photography that I knew to be a loser in terms of making money. (decent executive lifestyle type income etc)

Then it dawned on me that the average photo enthusiast isn't really seeing much of the commercial photography that makes money so maybe they don't even know it exists. Maybe they aren't aware of it simply because they aren't the audience. For example, a really competitive architectural photographer might be shooting some of best jobs in the country but the work will only be seen by a handful of potential buyers for the buildings. Or maybe a competitive product photographer might be shooting some of the best products in the country but the audience for the products is so small that only a few thousand or tens of thousands of people will even see his work in the catalogs.

Many of the higher paying and exclusive photography jobs are designed for and only seen by a small audience. Maybe this is why there is often a disconnect between what some of the more exclusive photo companies are doing and the opinion that exists about their decisions in the forums.

There are many thousands of photographers around the world shooting these jobs, but they are doing it mostly anonymously. They aren't famous, and most people don't know who they are and have never seen their work. These are the people that really need certain types of exclusive gear to meet their demands. They can't function without it, and while there aren't that many people with the demand they certainly have the money to pay for it and just think of it as another business expense. What is a 40,000 dollar camera in a studio space worth 7 figures already packed with 500k worth of lighting gear? The cost of a new camera system is just another drop in the bucket. There aren't a lot of photographers out there like this, but there are enough for a handful of camera makers to do just fine if they are accommodating to their needs.

Maybe the bottom line is that a hobby is a hobby and business is business. Try not to imagine that what's seen in mainstream advertising, photo hobby magazines, blogs, forums etc is all that there is to the commercial photo industry.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Well, the typical answer of a Phase One rep. with regard to your criticism seems to be: "Then our product is not for you, go buy something else". It's the arrogance of the market leader. They know you want their product and they know you can't get a compareable fix elsewhere and they know they can ask a pretty penny for it too.

The only salvation now would be some competition. But as far as I can see, Hasselblad will not be able to compete with its backs in the near future. The fact that they lost the anti-competition lawsuit puts them in an even more dangerous situation, since they must now allow Phase One's backs to be compatible with their camera bodies.

Only if Hasselblad innovates, re-invigourates its lens line (which comes to its limits with the new sensors), and puts forth a competitive price point will we see lower prices. Phase One will now reap the benefits of its R&D and hence some sweet margins on their products. Leaf is effectively relegated to a second-class seat now.

...

Hasselblad, where are you, come back and kick some ***!
I wouldn't hold my breath on that competitive comeback. They'll do it in their own way, in their own time. In the meantime, none of this will make a wit of difference to the vast majority of photographers out there making photographs. Nothing new there.

BTW, they already have started the reinvigoration of the lens line ... 50 MK-II, 120 refresh, 150N.

There are literarily thousands and thousands of MFD users slugging it out to make a living in a shyt economy that couldn't care less about the latest greatest from anyone ... compared to the microcosm these forums constitute.

I think Phase One is to be lauded for moving upstream ... but it means nothing to me personally, and won't until there is a different camera platform. However, it means a lot to a segment of their captive audience ... just like the H4D did for Hasselblad's captive audience.

-Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well lets go back a bit and I will use the P40+ as an example since I bought one i followed it very closely. On release of the P40+ the back price was 19900 and that was two years ago or so. Today with new tech with this sensor and that is about the only left over part it comes in at 22900. Thats a 3K difference between than and now and you are getting a whole lot more tech with it. Honestly and i am about to buy it AGAIN or move up that really is not that bad. Now lets also remember you can still buy the P40+ as it is still on the market as well as the P65 but the P40+ new today is 17900. So like anything else the price has gone down some to get in.

On surface that all looks very normal and expected. I think what some of us are faced with is the current user group not the guy buying in the first time although it is not considered cheap nor is buying into a S2 system or Hassy for that matter. The issue comes down to upgrades , laterals and such. I guess I am very much faced with this as are many others and I know a few of my friends jumped right in already one right after another. JEALOUS LOL

The hard part here is just like anything else even buying a car and the same car 2 years later. You going to lose value as soon as you drive off the lot and the value of the newest car most likely went up in price with more stuff added . Just not a lot of difference between the two products here.

Now would I agree it hurts like a SOB to buy again. Yes I do trust me. LOL
But it is also not of line either. I say that knowing i have no chance in hell getting a IQ 180 and the IQ 160 looks really doubtful for me as well.

Anyway love ya all but I need to get on a airplane and get to San Francisco so Jack and i can see all this new tech and hopefully help you all make some decisions on what to do and see if it is worth your money to move up or not.
 

Mike M

New member
Personally, I am convinced that photography as we know it is going to change so drastically in the next few years that our work today might be the work of a species on the brink of extinction. The reason I am saying that has a historical example, when photography came up in Paris, in one year alone around 30,000 street artists lost their entire income.

I think we are moving towards such an extinction event eventually as well. But this is just my own line of thinking for possible future scenarios.

Thanks for example of the Paris street artists. You're right, there is an extinction event coming. The photographers that are excluded from the culling are the ones with the mechanical background to shoot "boring" technical and didactic work.
 

djonesii

Workshop Member
And here I sit with an ancient ZD ...... Love the looks of the files, hate the ergonomics:deadhorse:

Maybe some of those rich guys will upgrade, and a few P40's will hit the market at a price I can actually afford. We are still talking about a well used compact car price wise though.

Sadly, it's a matter of diminishing marginal returns ...... I can get a brand new Sony that folks on this board admit is just "this close" and probably will net out at about 0! High tech just costs more and delivers less per dollar. Ever look at a high end hard disk subsystem? A 2TB consumer drive bare is about $79 ..... 2TB in an industrial IT setting sets you back well over 2K these days .... it's all about the technology. Those last extra RPM of the platter, and the fiber channel interface, really expensive low volume stuff. Luckily we make lots of money by being fast!

Sadly I make $0 with my camera .... very hard to justify that 7K upgrade when I could be somewhere shooting instead! Maybe I'll hit the lottery!

Dave
 

TRSmith

Subscriber Member
Interesting discussion. What's not clear to me is whether the high end camera makers are being accused of arbitrary price fixing or if in fact the cost of high-end cameras reflects the cost of production plus a fair margin.

As a young man doing product photography with a Toyo-G, I lusted for a Sinar but could never afford one. I resented them for being so arrogant as to price their cameras so much higher than what I could justify.

But hey, maybe the best costs more to produce. If we accept that new ground is be broken with every new sensor or camera model, then we must also accept that a company has to invest a lot of time and money in the development of that new and "best". Is the profit margin fair or reasonable? I can't really say.

I know from my own design business that I don't accept jobs from clients who aren't willing to pay what my established fees are. Some of them get pissed, claiming their nephew (or someone) has InDesign and he's offered to do the same job for a fraction of my quoted price. Why should it be my fault if they don't have the budget for my product?
 

Hauxon

Member
I'm not surprised by the fact there is a market for insanely expensive products, like many of you have already pointed out. The interesting question is about Phase One ambition and focus. Do the want the industry to use their products or the guy who has the Bugatti?

I just watched the "famous" interview at luminous-landscape.com where Yair Shahar of Leaf says "...the profile of the typical customer has changed over the years ". One would assume he´s saying the average pro is not shooting medium format anymore.

A medium format back does not work as a novelty item like Bugatti, or even Leica since it will not have a collectors value when it gets old, the novelty wears off. That's why we have the clumsy upgrade system to make up for the unrealistic pricing.

I would like to know why the professional/semi-pro photographer is no longer of interest for companies like Phase and Hasselblad. I know lot of professional portrait photographers (including some relatives) all who have an old Hasselblad camera, their workhorse. They would NEVER pay $45.000 for a digital back (or even $25.000 for that matter).

Hrannar
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
There are many thousands of photographers around the world shooting these jobs, but they are doing it mostly anonymously. They aren't famous, and most people don't know who they are and have never seen their work.
As you would expect the highest-end product that Phase One makes, the IQ180 is targeted only at the highest-end commercial photographers and non-pro users who have the ability and desire to own the very best system in the world.

But you're forgetting the rest of the range. The IQ140 is $21,990 - a high price, but by no means a "luxery" item. And the P+ series of backs is still being produced for the very reason of offering a range of pricing and products.

In addition, good Phase One dealers have used and refurbished products that make that range extend lower than a 1Ds III or D3X. We have 22mp options starting at $3500. You would not believe the number of photographers/studios that we work with that still use H25 digital backs. Those were released in 2003 and still far exceed the best dSLR at base ISO (which many photographers never need to exceed) and can be used on view cameras in addition to SLR systems. It's very reasonable, IMO, to expect that someone buying an IQ series back will still be using it in 5 years.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
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National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
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Hauxon

Member
I'd like to add, I have nothing against successful photographers or even rich people. :p

Have these companies accepted the idea that they lost the average working photographer over to Canon/Nikon? A product needs to be expensive when the production volume is low, not because the parts are expensive (it's electronics), but because design and marketing costs. One would assume that some aspects of the R&D have been covered by sales of early equipment making it possible to lower the price and reach greater audience. It's not like they were inventing the wheel when an updated back hits the market.

Hrannar
 

yaya

Active member
I just watched the "famous" interview at luminous-landscape.com where Yair Shahar of Leaf says "...the profile of the typical customer has changed over the years ". One would assume he´s saying the average pro is not shooting medium format anymore.
Hmm...what I meant is that there are more MF cameras being sold to non-pros in recent years compared to 5-6 years ago.

Many pros still shoot MF and LF and many of these people re-invest in their business every 3-4-5 years, if the need arises and if their business justifies it.

Saying that, it is true that many pros, for various reasons (economy situation, changing business model, changing creative needs etc.) have gone the DSLR route (exclusively or not)

At the same time and because of the growing pixel count and improved image quality, there are several other market areas that are now buying MF that were not using MF before (aerial, industrial and archiving to name a few)
These are not represented on these forums and come with different sets of needs and expectations but they are no longer a small, niche market.

BR

Yair
 
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