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Hasselblad vs Phase One

fotografz

Well-known member
of course. But I wasn't refering to the open/closed system question... but to a "integrated" system.
Of course Phase could provide an individual adjustemt of cameras/sensors as well... but they just don't do it.

by design this is not possible. No company makes mechanical parts in a series within tolerances of 0.06mm... Mircoadjustment is required.

edit:
Actually I don't use AF on the Contax (at least very rarely). I use spilt image screens and the screens are adjusted carefully to match the sensor spacing of my DB (well... with shims, naturally).
When I shot Contax 645 with a Kodak 645C Pro Back, I had to send the camera, back, and a few lenses to Kodak be calibrated together. After that the AF was much more accurate with some of the faster Zeiss lenses. Made me a believer in the Integration concept.

Another aspect of Hasselblad's approach is True Focus ... which is NOT just Absolute Position Lock of the H4, it is also CPU micro adjust focus compensation as you stop down. In a silent room working tethered you can hear it make the tiny AF tweaks. The H system AF is the most accurate of any camera I've used to date.

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
It may seem gruff Max, but in reality, it's a bunch of squeaky voiced Munchkins waving their fingers at each other while the real, big world keeps turning oblivious to it all :ROTFL:

-Marc
 

yaya

Active member
Pete the answer to that from anyone at Phase will be we do support the AFI in the Leaf back. Its a 3 product line company. Phase, Leaf and Mamiya and that is what they will tell you.

I know I know but that is how they look at it. One line in there product inventory supports it .
And that's exactly it; the number of Hy6/ AFi bodies sold is high enough to support sales of new Leaf Aptus-II 12 backs for it but not high enough to support developing a new Phase One back for it

There's your answer Peter:)

Yair
 

thomas

New member
When I shot Contax 645 with a Kodak 645C Pro Back, I had to send the camera, back, and a few lenses to Kodak be calibrated together. After that the AF was much more accurate with some of the faster Zeiss lenses.
actually the sensor spacing is within the tolerances of my Contax' AF... but the AF tolerances are simply not tight enough for a high res back. Manual fine adjustment with split image screens improves things when very precise focusing is required; especially near infinity where the AF doesn't work that reliable. Too, I simply feel good (i.e. safe) when there is a visual control over focusing in the finder.
Downside of split image screens is they only work for center focusing, of course. And you have to guess focus shift compensation. But that's not that hard when you know your lenses... IMO. I still have to "learn" the zoom lens as focus shift on this one is heavy but with the fixed focal lenses it's really quite easy.

... Made me a believer in the Integration concept.
yep, understandable. Actually as long as there is a way to fine adjust focus everything is fine (so something like Alpa's back shimming, Arca's offset focusing, manual adjustment of helical focus rings, screen shimming, AF micro adjustment and you name it). But if there is no option at all to fine adjust focusing you are actually screwed. I haven't used one... but I believe for SLR type cameras Hasselblads approach is the most mature (re focusing); possibly followed by the S2. If you don't really need AF screen shimming also works just fine (Contax, Hy6 ... not sure about the AFD/DF).
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I was looking through some photography bo0ks as I was packing box number 24000 this evening ( we are moving house) - and I realised in looking at some of the great work of the past - a lot of it wouldn't pass the focus tests that many are obsessed about ..

No disrespect to anyone ...

just a thought.

Pete
 

fotografz

Well-known member
actually the sensor spacing is within the tolerances of my Contax' AF... but the AF tolerances are simply not tight enough for a high res back. Manual fine adjustment with split image screens improves things when very precise focusing is required; especially near infinity where the AF doesn't work that reliable. Too, I simply feel good (i.e. safe) when there is a visual control over focusing in the finder.
Downside of split image screens is they only work for center focusing, of course. And you have to guess focus shift compensation. But that's not that hard when you know your lenses... IMO. I still have to "learn" the zoom lens as focus shift on this one is heavy but with the fixed focal lenses it's really quite easy.

yep, understandable. Actually as long as there is a way to fine adjust focus everything is fine (so something like Alpa's back shimming, Arca's offset focusing, manual adjustment of helical focus rings, screen shimming, AF micro adjustment and you name it). But if there is no option at all to fine adjust focusing you are actually screwed. I haven't used one... but I believe for SLR type cameras Hasselblads approach is the most mature (re focusing); possibly followed by the S2. If you don't really need AF screen shimming also works just fine (Contax, Hy6 ... not sure about the AFD/DF).
Yeah, the bigger backs would most certainly magnify the AF issues. Mine was a 9 micron 16 meg back on the Contax way back then, so less critical. I sent it in to Kodak and it turned out that the back wasn't calibrated properly and the sensor unit had to be shimmed.

I'm amazed that more attention isn't paid to this AF situation ... Sample variation of lens manufacture alone warrants some sort of adjustment ability ... especially as the backs get bigger and bigger and the DOF masking gets narrower and narrower.

It'd be interesting to know how Hasselblad "integrates" the True Focus Micro Adjust given that existing user lenses aren't part of that process ... but somehow it seems to work. Maybe TF/MicroAdjust is just compensating for known focus shift when changing apertures, and that the integration calibration of each camera/back has to meet certain tight tolerances as a unit using average lens samples?

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I was looking through some photography bo0ks as I was packing box number 24000 this evening ( we are moving house) - and I realised in looking at some of the great work of the past - a lot of it wouldn't pass the focus tests that many are obsessed about ..

No disrespect to anyone ...

just a thought.

Pete
No disagreement Peter ... it's just that WHEN you want critical focus, it should be there.

I can always throw something out of focus, but if the AF won't provide critical focus when shooting a product or something, it isn't favorably looked upon by clients, especially eagle eyed Art Directors that may crop and enlarge that section for alternate use.

-Marc
 

thomas

New member
Yeah, the bigger backs would most certainly magnify the AF issues. Mine was a 9 micron 16 meg back on the Contax way back then, so less critical.
makes sense. My p21+ almost acts like a "point and shoot" in comparision to the P45. It's also 9 microns and has a smaller crop than the p45, so it's much less of a hassle to focus it correctly...
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Totally agree guys - when you need it it HAS to be there.. and yet wide open shooting in MF and high megapixels ( smaller pixels) doesn't make it easy...

you really need what I call FAT light to give yourself half a chance..and probably a FAT tripod to match..

I think the limits of hardware tolerances will be more and more tested by these high megapixel backs..
 
Yeah, the bigger backs would most certainly magnify the AF issues. Mine was a 9 micron 16 meg back on the Contax way back then, so less critical. I sent it in to Kodak and it turned out that the back wasn't calibrated properly and the sensor unit had to be shimmed.

I'm amazed that more attention isn't paid to this AF situation ... Sample variation of lens manufacture alone warrants some sort of adjustment ability ... especially as the backs get bigger and bigger and the DOF masking gets narrower and narrower.

It'd be interesting to know how Hasselblad "integrates" the True Focus Micro Adjust given that existing user lenses aren't part of that process ... but somehow it seems to work. Maybe TF/MicroAdjust is just compensating for known focus shift when changing apertures, and that the integration calibration of each camera/back has to meet certain tight tolerances as a unit using average lens samples?

-Marc
Hi Marc,

Its the camera telling the lens when to rotate back and forth and then instructing it when to stop, when the subject is in focus. The lens actually doesn't know where it is focussed as finely as the camera.

Does that make sense?

The point it that the camera has to have a very tight hardware calibration (CCD) position, electronic (on board AF system) and clever stuff! (The compensation of aperture focus shift)

This is why our efforts are mostly centred around body / electronics focussing.

However, there are a few other (secret) things we could do in the lenses as well. ;)

D
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I am currently running a Phase One P65+ and also a LEAF Aptus 12, as well as a P45+ in my architectural photography business. I've been shooting MF digital since 1995.
Firstly, lets deal with the backs. It is essential that you know what you want to shoot. I have a couple of friends who own H4D-60's and love them. They use a brand they are familiar with, the image quality meets their expectations and they do not anticipate wanting to use their back on a technical camera at any point in the future.
I earn over 90% of my income shooting with a technical camera, so any back I use must have this capability (to be mounted on a technical cam)and in an uncompromised way. In this regard, my P65+ is by far my favourite. The durability of my back is a big factor for me - I spend a lot of time on industrial sites and in the mountains hiking. I've spent a bit of time with the Blad back and whilst it is a quality device, I don't trust its durability.
The Leaf Aptus 12, with 80 Megapixels is the current image quality champion. The files have to be seen to be believed. Don't just fixate on the pixel count - the quality of the data and the combination with Capture One Pro are an unstoppable combo. I still prefer the Phase navigation but this could be because I'm very used to it. In any event, Leaf are launching a new interface soon.
Alas, if money is no object, there is only one back to consider - the just announced Phase One IQ180. I had the pleasure of shooting with this back just a week ago and I am still speechless. It is fast, incredibly easy to use, has a totally user-friendly interface and is as tough as nails. I even have a photograph of Poul Husum, area sales manager for Phase One, standing on one. Ask your Hasselblad dealer to do that!
The back I shot with was a prototype and still had some bugs but I would have bought it on the spot if I could. There are several threads about this back already, so I'll not prattle on more.
Cameras- Hmmm. Tougher call. When I retired my much loved Hasselblad V system about a year ago, I tested both Blad and Mamiya/Phase before I decided on the 645DF camera. I think the viewfinder is a little brighter, the Af is definitely faster (H3d vs DF). I prefer the look of the Blad, it's power options appear more attractive (not an issue now that I have a V-grip air) and I prefer how it feels in the hand. Fit and finish are also better on the Blad. Most decry the lack of a removable prism on the DF but working here in the Middle East, I see this as plus due to there being one less place for dust to get in. In the end, I'd say try both and choose the one that suits you best.
Be aware though, that Phase One are working on an all new camera that is their attempt to overcome the weaknesses of the DF, which like the Blad, is a new update of an old platform.
At the time of making my decision, I had access to 28, 80, 120Macro and 150mm lenses from both players. I very much prefer the look of the Blad - Man, their industrial designers rock. Still, to my surprise, the Phase lenses focussed faster, and 2 of the 4 were noticeably sharper. Since the release of all the new lenses from Phase one in the last year or so, I'm pretty happy I made the decision I did.
The reality is that the back is always the dearest part of the equation, so just buy the best. If I was to buy a Blad now (assuming I didn't like the DF, for whatever the reason), I'd still buy an IQ180 and put it on a H2 to avoid the firmware lockout nonsense of the H3 and H4. Several dealers are still selling H2's new but get in quick- now that the lawsuit between Phase and Blad is settled, H2 users know Phase can still support the mount........
It's a tough dilemma you face. Good luck.
Cheers,
What I want to see is YOU standing on your $44,000. IQ180 when you get one ... :ROTFL:

Then I'll believe it ... however, what that means is lost on me other than a marketing circus act ... no back from anyone has ever had to carry a 170lb+ load on any job I've ever seen shot, nor have any of them failed due to its load bearing ability :rolleyes:

I once dropped a non-Phase One back down a complete fight of marble stairs from tripod height, and other than cosmetic marks it worked perfectly. IMO, that meant nothing either.

-Marc
 

goesbang

Member
[

Should an H4D owner think they would like a spare body then 9 times out of ten they order it when they order their H4D. The two bodies are then calibrated together.[/QUOTE]

This is very trite.
In many studios, the asset base runs to multiple backs and multiple bodies, all of which need to be interchangeable. I won't even start on the need to run backs on multiple camera types......
I once ran a business which had 39 MF backs across our studios. No way I could consider Blad in that mix.
I can't help but wonder what the major rental studios' equipment managers are thinking as H2 stocks dry up. If you have 20 backs sitting on your shelf and each one has to be paired to a single body, that's a pretty hairy logistical nightmare. Oh, that's right, you want them to order 2 bodies with each back....
Even in a small single-photographer business like mine, there are 3 backs capable of running on the 5 camera platforms (Alpa, Arca, Fuji, Horseman and Phase) that populate my equipment cupboard.
Yes, it's pretty cool what Blad is doing re: the fine focus adjustment where the camera/lens/back integration is essential.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, tens of thousands of photographers are producing razor sharp images every day with cameras from Mamiya, Rollei, Contax, Phase One and lots more, all of which can mount their back of choice.
No matter how you spin it, the loss of choice which is the price of buying into the Hasselblad closed system is too high for the purported benefits. In relation to the AF benefits so loudly touted, they are in the eyes of many, a fantastic solution to a non-existant problem.
 

yaya

Active member
Me personally I just find "Open" as a much more positive term...Imagine running to the corner shop in the rain at 10pm to get some milk and biscuits...the kettle's on, DVD is warmed up with the latest RomCom and then the (switched off) sign on the door says "CLOSED"...

YMMV...
 

H3dtogo

New member
I for sure never had any problems using my 31Mp back on my H3d-39 body or my 39 back on my 22Mp H3dII body. Also i can not get the point why backs need to be interchangeable between more camera bodies( 645AF bodies). I use my backs on a Sinar P2, a Hartbleicam, a Linhof 647cc, a H3dII and have used the 50Mp on a self made pinhole-alike camera.
The Phase one system is in reality exact as closed as Hasselblad. A Phase back does the same thing as my Hassie H3dII backs. And yes, there are two lenses not available for the Phase users and Yes i cannot use the closed Leaf AFI system with my Hasselblad backs or lenses....
But honestly, i have been in many, many studios that use Hasselblad equipment and never ever had anybody complaining about a system being closed or that they were not able to use other than Hasselblad backs on their cameras. I think it is a rather extreme small user group, that mostly does not use a digital back at all who is complaining about these things.
IMHO.
 

goesbang

Member
Me personally I just find "Open" as a much more positive term...Imagine running to the corner shop in the rain at 10pm to get some milk and biscuits...the kettle's on, DVD is warmed up with the latest RomCom and then the (switched off) sign on the door says "CLOSED"...

YMMV...
Tee Heee

Or... imagine you are in the middle of a major shoot, your camera body fails (a bummer, but it happens), you think "it's ok, I have several other bodies in my cupboard".

Then (cue bass drums), you remove your back, walk to the cupboard, look at the Fuji GX 680, Alpa, Arca and Horseman bodies that could have completed the job, then slowly, painfully, realise that the very expensive 60MP back in your hand just became a paper weight because it wears the badge of that closed platform.......:ROTFL:
 

Dustbak

Member
The 60 currently aside, you can use any H back on the camera's you have mentioned provided they have an H-mount.

Also, as H3dtogo mentioned, you apparently can use the backs on other 'non-calibrated' H3/4 bodies as well....

Hasselblad does have a tendency to advertise everything as being not compatible when it delivers sub-standard results (in their eyes). The HC120macro is also not compatible with the HTS according to Hasselblad but it works...

Same applies for the 1.7 converter + the HTS + the HC300 but it also works and the results are pretty good too but apparently below what Hasselblad likes to see.

Funny that the term 'closed' has now become a badge applied apparently without carefully checking the content...

BTW, I would love it when Hasselblad would open up the H4D series for other manufacturers. Personally I did not like it they closed the H system for backs made by other manufacturers. Maybe a wise decision at that time, not so sure if that still applies or if it ever did but it happened so no point in beating that dead horse. I think calibrating backs & bodies doesn't get in the way of keeping the platform open for others. I also wonder what would have happened if it was the other way around.....
 
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