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Thread: Phase One Lens Guidance

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    Phase One Lens Guidance

    I am upgrading my Medium Format equipment from Hasselblad to Phase and would like some guidance regarding the Phase lenses. Is there a difference between the two 80mm lenses? Are there any preferences for the medium wides (55 or 45)? Is the 110 worth a consideration? My Hasselblad lenses are currently 80, 150 and 210..... all sharp as a tack. For wide I use an Alpa and 35XL. Mostly landscapes, cityscapes and gardens.

    Thanks for any feedback....

    Victor

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    My two favorite primes are the 80LS and the 110LS
    Both have beautiful rendering and the LS permits high speed strobe sync.
    The 150D is about as sharp as you could want but I frequently use the 75-150 in studio and as a very good general purpose zoom.

    The 55LS is lovely in the center but gets bit soft for me in the corners with a full frame sensor.

    The 45D is the most useful wide.
    For very wide you have a choice of the 28D and the new 35D (which I have yet to try) Good copies of the older 35 can be found.

    The two 80s render differently and the LS version of course sports a leaf shutter. I prefer the rendering and bokeh of the 80LS but that is a great subject for debate over drinks.
    The 55-110 is a somewhat spotty lens with a good dose of CA. You need to hunt for a good copy.
    The 300 seems to be a reliable performer.
    -bob

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Bob,

    Shame to hear about the 55..... I really need sharp edge to edge. My concerns are that the Phase lenses can't live up to the sharpness of my current lineup. I assume that you have used both of the 80's..... is one sharper than the other?

    Victor

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Might want to look at this . This is 80 mpx sensor with Phase glass. Not going to get more demanding than this

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23200
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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Guy,

    I looked at that yesterday with great interest..... my concerns were regarding differences between the Schneider glass and Mamiya. The 55 is perfect for my needs. I realize that wides have some curvature which I can accept.... but not alignment issues. The 150 is a given but I'm up in the air about which 80. These will all be used with IQ180.

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    The MFDB that you use (sensor size) can also impact the lenses that you choose/like. If you have a crop sensor like the P30/P40, you can get away with more. Even the slight crop on the P45 makes a difference over a full framed sensor P65, which is much more unforgiving on lenses. The 28mm D (and the old 35mm) is a great example.

    The 150D is my favorite. 35D and 110LS on the way. I think the Schneiders and the D series are up to task for the latest generation of backs.

    Don't forget the 120mm D. Very nice. There's a 120 D in the GetDPI buy/sell forum.

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Guy,

    I looked at that yesterday with great interest..... my concerns were regarding differences between the Schneider glass and Mamiya. The 55 is perfect for my needs. I realize that wides have some curvature which I can accept.... but not alignment issues. The 150 is a given but I'm up in the air about which 80. These will all be used with IQ180.
    The new 55mm LS is a sweet heart but it seems on the FF sensors it goes a touch softer in the corners on the P40 it is awesome but you do have a option and that is sharpen corners in C1. Or if you really need across the frame the new 45mm will get you there. The 28d is also very very good but the extreme corners on FF same thing a touch soft. Now if you regard the 28mm as a 30mm and crop slightly all gone or again corner sharpness but I think the Phase 28mm is better than the Hassy from what I have seen . It has less distortion for starters . Although with DAC the H 28 picks it up a great deal.

    The problem is full frame and wides it gets tough sometimes. I have the new Phase 35mm and seems good but I need to try it on a P65+ which i will do on this workshop next week. My 55mm was good on the 80 MPX in center but fell off some in the corners. The 80 LS has a look but they both are very sharp. I think between the 80's it's a coin flip. The LS has more look to it though or character. The 110mm is very very nice and the 150 is legendary. I may have made that so. LOL Love that lens and don't under estimate the 300mm. The 120 Macro maybe one of the best around and just take my word for it Phase has a lot up it's sleeve. If I actually bought the 80mpx IQ 180. I may just go with a Alpa with 47 and 35 or something like that for the wide end or see what is next in the Phase lineup. But the Phase glass is very good and the new Schneiders are very sweet. But I know Bob and Jack where or are disappointed a little on the 55LS. I would like Phase to look into this but a safe bet right now is the 45D and 28D if you treat it like a 30 on a FF.

    The one beauty of the crop sensor and maybe the only one in my book is I never run into any of the corner issues. Most likely the 45+ would not either it is just the way outside of the frame. Honestly end of day i am probably just going to buy the IQ 140 with the same sensor. I want the tech but I really don't need the MPX in a way. Yea love to have them and with sensor plus even more so. But as a Pro and business on the downside I have be careful. Just reality but I would kill for the IQ 180.

    So depending on back you are after and focal lengths this will come into play. If i went FF I would probably sell the 28mm if the new 35mm would be okay which on the P40+ it is hitting all the check marks but I will know more next week.

    The one nice thing of the Phase lenses is they are pretty small compared to some of there counterparts of other OEM's. Also the 3 LS will sync at 1/1600 which is a nice option to have.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    The evidence does not confirm that the 55mm LS is a Schneider design. It is the same optically as the older Mamiya AF 55mm. How do I know? From the absolutely identical optical cross-sections. Attached find the two side by side - I put this comparison together in a couple of minutes; the LS version is a P1 advertisement, and I grabbed the original non-LS AF version from the 645AFD II brochure.

    Can you tell the difference? No, neither can I.

    Perhaps PhaseOne would like to clarify exactly what role Schneider had in designing this 55mm LS lens? It looks like they merely rubber-stamped the original excellent Mamiya design. Maybe tweaked the coatings.

    The other two LS lenses are genuinely new designs, and no doubt Schneider had a direct role in their optical configuration.

    Anyhow...there is now a confusing array of M645/Phase lens generations: C, S, N, AF, D, and lastly LS. But not all designs were changed in all generations.
    To help disentangle what's what, I've attached some info on the 3 AF wideangles (before the 28mm came along). On the top are my observations regarding these AF designs versus all variants of the old MF lenses (C, S, N). I don't refer to the D or LS lenses in this case.

    Ray
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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Bob,

    Shame to hear about the 55..... I really need sharp edge to edge. My concerns are that the Phase lenses can't live up to the sharpness of my current lineup. I assume that you have used both of the 80's..... is one sharper than the other?

    Victor
    I have used them both and I would say that they are roughly equally sharp, but I prefer the 80LS rendering.
    I think that the sharpest lens I have ever used bar none is the 150D
    -bob

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Guy,

    These lenses will be used with an IQ180 back. Its good to hear about the 45 though I had wanted this medium wide to be a little longer. My 35XL gets me wide enough for almost any issues I come up to - like tight areas in Chinese gardens. I suggest that you be very careful with Alpa lenses.... there's lots to go wrong - I finally settled on my third 35XL - my 47 went back! A good dealer is very important!

    Thanks for post.....

    Victor

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Bob,

    That's what I wanted to know.....

    Thanks..

    Victor

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Guy,

    These lenses will be used with an IQ180 back. Its good to hear about the 45 though I had wanted this medium wide to be a little longer. My 35XL gets me wide enough for almost any issues I come up to - like tight areas in Chinese gardens. I suggest that you be very careful with Alpa lenses.... there's lots to go wrong - I finally settled on my third 35XL - my 47 went back! A good dealer is very important!

    Thanks for post.....

    Victor
    Well you do have 80 mpx to work with and even if you had to crop a bit 60 or 70 ain't bad.

    The thing is a monster out there.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well you do have 80 mpx to work with and even if you had to crop a bit 60 or 70 ain't bad.

    The thing is a monster out there.
    That's exactly why I am choosing the IQ180

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    ROTFLMAO
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    An 80MP (Aptus-II 12) street shot taken with the 55LS at f11 & 1/160 handheld

    61MB download
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Yair,

    Thanks for the upload.... You are at the outer edge of the f/stop range for my comfort. I usually try to stay under f11 but f11 may be the magic f/stop for the 55.

    Victor

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Mamiya 55 vs Schneider 55 LS


    Last May I compared these two lenses side by side. The LS blew away the Mamiya 55 in the corners.

    Now, I may have had a poor Mamiya or an exceptional LS - or perhaps Phase/Schneider does better quality control, or despite the apparent similar lens design there are differences. And of course, a leaf shutter.

    So I don't know the "why" but I do know the new lens is better. This has been confirmed by several other users I've shot with.

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    More info here in case you haven't seen this thread:
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15710

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    I would have loved the 55LS to equal or even be close to the 80 and 110, but the copy I demo'd was not. It never got crisp in the corners, so I returned it. I use the 45D instead. It looses a bit in the extreme corners, but the rendering is very nice overall. If I need it sharp corner to corner, I shoot a little loose and crop it to about a 50 and get it all sharp.
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I would have loved the 55LS to equal or even be close to the 80 and 110, but the copy I demo'd was not. It never got crisp in the corners, so I returned it. I use the 45D instead. It looses a bit in the extreme corners, but the rendering is very nice overall. If I need it sharp corner to corner, I shoot a little loose and crop it to about a 50 and get it all sharp.
    Jack,

    What f/stop delivers acceptable results for you with the 45D? f11 (as an example) is stopping down almost too much for me...I would really like to shoot at 5.6 or f8. I don't mind some of the image not being in focus - in fact I kind of like it. BUT.... what I want in focus I want to REALLY be in focus edge to edge at that focus plane. Are you noticing curvature? The problem with any wides is that without shift they take in some of the foreground that can't possibly be in focus as it is outside of the focus zone.

    Victor

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Thanks to everyone for getting back to me.... I really appreciate the time taken to respond.

    Victor

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Yair,

    Thanks for the upload.... You are at the outer edge of the f/stop range for my comfort. I usually try to stay under f11 but f11 may be the magic f/stop for the 55.

    Victor
    Hi Victor I have a similar type of image taken at f7 I'll upload it later tonight

    Cheers Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Jack,

    What f/stop delivers acceptable results for you with the 45D? f11 (as an example) is stopping down almost too much for me...I would really like to shoot at 5.6 or f8.
    Victor,

    I find the 45D delivers a very nice and unique look if used at f4 or f5.6 --- the edges and corners are not crisp there, but the way the focus falls off and the oof renders, it is quite nice. At f8, it's pretty sharp across the frame, at f11 it is at peak and quite good corner to corner. If you want a lens that is crisp edge to edge at the focus plane and without curvature at f5.6, this isn't a lens for you -- but IMHO neither is the 55LS going to be...
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Jack,

    I appreciate the post. I realize that I won't get rid of curvature at f5.8 or even f8.... I can maybe crop some of that out with a loose image. Even my Schneider 35XL needs f11 to be super crisp edge to edge, corner to corner. I'll have an opportunity to shoot both of them at Capture Integration when the back arrives.

    Victor

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Victor,

    Well.... I just met up with Guy and Bob for the workshop and Guy asked us to test his copy of the 55LS.. We did and his copy is a freaking laser, so they are out there. Both Bob and I are rethinking it. To clarify, his copy is sharp corner to corner at f5.6 on the P65+, a laser at f8 and 11, and honestly quite usable wide open at f2.8. Pretty much parallels the 80...
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    I rock the house.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    And another testament to lens variability, I found that my Mamiya 35 out-performed two other samples recently tried. All were quire usable, but a pixel peeper like me likes to see sharp right to the corners on a P65+ without resorting to f/16. I am very satisfied with my 35. Good all the way from f/5.6 through f/16 with the best corner sharpness at f/8 and f/11.
    Of course on this particular lens, on a 16 by 20 print, it would appear to be sharp even wide open. Sometimes we are a but tough in judging our gear.
    -bob

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Victor,

    Well.... I just met up with Guy and Bob for the workshop and Guy asked us to test his copy of the 55LS.. We did and his copy is a freaking laser, so they are out there. Both Bob and I are rethinking it. To clarify, his copy is sharp corner to corner at f5.6 on the P65+, a laser at f8 and 11, and honestly quite usable wide open at f2.8. Pretty much parallels the 80...
    Yay! Mine too! I used mine on a commercial job recently, photographing a church, and I'm VERY happy with it.

    Bill

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post

    If I actually bought the 80mpx IQ 180. I may just go with a Alpa with 47 and 35 or something like that for the wide end or see what is next in the Phase lineup.
    Guy, wouldn't you be concerned that the 47 and 35 might have the same banding issues as the P65+ when shifting?

    I had one of those "I can't believe I got this" shot with the 24XL that had banding which I ended up cleaning manually. A royal pain in the backside for sure.

    Ed

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    All these reports of wide variability between samples back up what I was saying earlier in this thread: the 55AF and 55LS appear to be identical optical designs. Those who find the 55LS to be better, merely got the better samples.

    There's no need to invoke Schneider magic when Occam's razor is employed.

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    The 55 is my preferred focal length. Its a shame that quality control can't be a little tighter with lenses in the price range. But, been there done that from Leica to Alpa......

    Thanks for posting.....

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Victor,

    Well.... I just met up with Guy and Bob for the workshop and Guy asked us to test his copy of the 55LS.. We did and his copy is a freaking laser, so they are out there. Both Bob and I are rethinking it. To clarify, his copy is sharp corner to corner at f5.6 on the P65+, a laser at f8 and 11, and honestly quite usable wide open at f2.8. Pretty much parallels the 80...
    I have the 55LS and mine is tack sharp edge to edge on both my P65+ and Leaf Apyus 12. Optimal apertures appear to be roughly f7 to f11. Smaller then f11 seems to show diffraction softness.

    I have not seen a Mamiya 55non-LS that comes even close to this lens for sharpness and tonality. It's a beauty.
    Siebel
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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    Guy, wouldn't you be concerned that the 47 and 35 might have the same banding issues as the P65+ when shifting?

    I had one of those "I can't believe I got this" shot with the 24XL that had banding which I ended up cleaning manually. A royal pain in the backside for sure.

    Ed
    Ed, I use both 47 and 35mm's on my Alpa STC in my architectural photography practice. The banding you are talking about is a product of the angle at which light strikes the sensor when using symmetrical lenses.
    I can't change the laws of optics and physics even when I use all my magical super-photographer powers, so I compromise - use some shift and (gasp!) tip my camera up or down a little, then use some correction in photoshop. With my P65+ and Aptus 12 there are so many pixels of data available that one does not see the artefacts of interpolation that one sees when using photoshop to correct convergence in DSLR files. This is one of the areas where having a good relationship with the Megapixel God is a huge blessing.
    This is why the marriage of a huge sensor and a technical camera like the Alpa is the weapon of choice for pros.
    Hope this helps...

    Cheers,
    Siebel
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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    Ed, I use both 47 and 35mm's on my Alpa STC in my architectural photography practice. The banding you are talking about is a product of the angle at which light strikes the sensor when using symmetrical lenses.
    I can't change the laws of optics and physics even when I use all my magical super-photographer powers, so I compromise - use some shift and (gasp!) tip my camera up or down a little, then use some correction in photoshop. With my P65+ and Aptus 12 there are so many pixels of data available that one does not see the artefacts of interpolation that one sees when using photoshop to correct convergence in DSLR files. This is one of the areas where having a good relationship with the Megapixel God is a huge blessing.
    This is why the marriage of a huge sensor and a technical camera like the Alpa is the weapon of choice for pros.
    Hope this helps...

    Cheers,
    And FWIW LCC tools in both Capture One and Leaf Capture clean any of these artefacts nicely

    Yair

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    I just got an Aptus 12 with a Phase DF and 80mm LS and 55 LS.

    Today I did some tests against a heavily textured wall and was shocked to see how soft the 55 LS gets in the corners. It really is a shame for the money and get quite unuseable in the top left part. I'm not buying some cheap Canon glass but Schneider-Kreuznach and get this!

    The 80mm is a laser on the other hand, useable even in the cornerns at 2.8 ...

    I will return the 55 LS ...

    So basically to summarize what has been said above, there's no wide-angle Phase One lens that's consistently sharp into the corners on a full-frame sensor? Everything downhill 80mm is bad or good luck? I.e. 55, 35, 28?

    I'm a little disappointed for all the money ...

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    Re: Phase One Lens Guidance

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    And FWIW LCC tools in both Capture One and Leaf Capture clean any of these artefacts nicely

    Yair
    The issue I've had is that , for example, with the 35mm on the Alpa with the Aptus 12, when I get beyond 8mm shift, the lenscast is more severe than LCC can correct. It is in situations where I need more shift than this that I resort to tipping the camera and correcting perspective in post, whilst still using modest shift.
    I am nor a purist who is going to whinge that I wish my lens/back could shift more. I'm only interested in the end result and this gets me the outcome required. Working this way gets me the perspective correction I need and the massive resolution available off the Aptus 12 on the Alpa is a big part of the equation.
    Siebel
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