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Thread: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

  1. #51
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    But regardless, I understand where he is coming from. Should he have done more due diligence? Yes, but perhaps he didn't know that he needed to. It's a camera. I think today, if you are selling cameras, especially expensive ones, you need to ask questions, questions, questions. You need to discuss products in terms of relativity to others and be specific to application and conditions and draw this out. You cannot assume a client calling to buy a camera will know to offer them up.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve, agreed, but high-end camera reps I have met are skilled tradesmen as opposed to generalists. Unless you are in the same trade, it is best not to expect too much. What happens when the questions just reveal that the rep doesn't really know how to do what the client wants? Happens a lot. Then most reps will just try to sell the most capable kit they have.

    Ascending the digital photography price ladder we go from equipment made to do almost anything reasonably well, to that designed to do a few things superbly. We wouldn't expect a consumer camera store clerk to give definitive advice on photographing art or fashion or food. We do expect more from the person selling us the latest MF kit, but that advice can only reflect what he knows.

    If you don't do typical commercial photography, or if you are not exactly sure where your work is going, caveat emptor. In that case, very few people are in the same place or on the same path and can actually give you detailed advice. So, we haunt the boards looking for kindred spirits.

    Dealers, after all, want to sell you something. Take the pitch in the spirit in which it is given. If the rep does not understand you any better than your spouse does, borrow or rent the stuff for a week and see what it can do.

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Steve, agreed, but high-end camera reps I have met are skilled tradesmen as opposed to generalists. Unless you are in the same trade, it is best not to expect too much. What happens when the questions just reveal that the rep doesn't really know how to do what the client wants? Happens a lot. Then most reps will just try to sell the most capable kit they have.

    Ascending the digital photography price ladder we go from equipment made to do almost anything reasonably well, to that designed to do a few things superbly. We wouldn't expect a consumer camera store clerk to give definitive advice on photographing art or fashion or food. We do expect more from the person selling us the latest MF kit, but that advice can only reflect what he knows.

    If you don't do typical commercial photography, or if you are not exactly sure where your work is going, caveat emptor. In that case, very few people are in the same place or on the same path and can actually give you detailed advice. So, we haunt the boards looking for kindred spirits.

    Dealers, after all, want to sell you something. Take the pitch in the spirit in which it is given. If the rep does not understand you any better than your spouse does, borrow or rent the stuff for a week and see what it can do.

    And to be clear, I am speaking generally, not specifically about JGD or whoever he was working with at the dealer level.

    Yes, you should expect more from a dealer selling expensive equipment like this, as you say, but if the discussion broaches into an area that the dealer rep is not familiar with, then either that rep should seek more information (there is nothing wrong with saying - I don't know, but I will get back to you), or that rep or dealership shouldn't be selling the products in the first place. Which again, gets back to the issue of the prospective purchaser being at the mercy of this situation.

    As has been pointed out, this is a problem because of the lack of well qualified dealers to sell and support this type of expensive equipment.

    For the most part, someone doing their homework will have some idea of the caveats, due to great forums like this, but that isn't always 100% the case, sometimes someone is just not familiar with the gottchas that might ensue and just assume they're buying a very expensive camera that practically does everything by itself in incredible quality with minimal intervention or effort.

    Not saying that's the case here, but we do come across these type of clients from time to time, and if we recognize that, it should be a red flag to us as the seller and the supporter to make an extra effort to ensure the purchaser understands all the pluses and minuses of what they are getting into and draw more information out from them as a result.

    ***Edit: I would also add that in this case, for example, if someone sold an H4D-31 and didn't have the knowledge or experience of using a technical camera or view camera with a digital back so couldn't advise the purchaser on the issue of uncorrectable vignetted color casts, they shouldn't be selling the product in the first place. If that rep specializes in high end fashion photography but are completely ignorant of movement-based photography, they shouldn't be selling the equipment.

    Medium format itself is so much more versatile than 35mm in terms of camera and lens options and resulting applications, that having a broad range of photographic knowledge is essential IMO.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

  3. #53
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Bryan,
    Thanks for the pep talk, there's been other posts that i've made here that have, lets say, ruffled a few feathers. That's one of the reasons I made that reference. But you do make excellent points, i've have read other forums and to be honest, this one does seem to have more experience and less drama. As Steve Hendrix pointed out too, one must do the research, as product cycles and technologies have change considerably, probably even since I just started writing this. I did however, check Capture integration and Phase One's websites, and to their credit, all the tech data one could use or need is available for everyone to read. Even tech camera/lenses/DB's comparisons. They clearly state which DB's use micro-lenses and either are or are not recommended with tech/view cameras. My mistake was not going there before and understanding the differences each makes. Perhaps, others will learn from my mistakes and understand that as photographers we evolve as does our equipment. Try to imagine where it will take you and at the same time be practical. Get equipment that can integrate with each other without having to sacrifice a brands loyalty altogether. Group hug...

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Since we are now talking about the sellers of the gear rather than the slug fest over my gear is better than your gear...

    My 2$ ...

    I think this category of selling MFD equipment has undergone a huge transformation in the past few years. There are more very well informed re-sellers coming to the forefront as the companies intensify training and improve dissemination of information. But it is not as widespread as one would hope, especially in certain areas where it is difficult to get a one-on-one relationship cemented. I'm located in a major metro area of Michigan ... according to the P1 Partner locator, the closest P1 dealer is in Cleveland Ohio ... my Hasselblad rep is 15 minutes away from standing in my studio to help me one-on-one.

    Because the equipment itself has also done an amazing transformation in a few short years, the more traditional use of it has metamorphosed into new areas of photography ... as opposed to its more traditional role in the commercial world peopled by fairly knowledgable career photographers with a clear creative or functional intent for the gear.

    As far as enthusiasts buyers ... one would assume they have some idea of why they are buying $30+K gear ... some specific functional or creative intent as a priority. That information is all that a dealer can respond to because none of these choices do everything well ... and if the priority intent changes later ... ??? It's like going to a car dealer and saying I want to buy a car ... getting a sedan that does most things well, then getting angry at that dealer because you can't haul the entire soccer team to practice.

    -Marc

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    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Oh man, here I go again...

    Johnny, I can feel for you as well, but do you really expect any manufacturer to give you a full picture of a products use in their marketing literature? Come on guy, your an actor, you KNOW not to believe everything you see.... or read.

    That said, you'll never find out the whole truth about anything from looking at marketing materials. They're designed to direct your attention to just what they intend your attention to be directed towards! Guys like me get paid lots of bucks to make anything look good... and sell because of it. You were doing fine shooting film, and now making the change over to digital. Welcome to Club-Shed. Shedding lots of cash to find out that digital is different from film is something many of us experienced. If some are a bit sharp in their answers to you, it's likely due more to our own similar foolishness having already poured countless thousands ourselves down that rat hole called "gaining experience."

    When you are pushing the edges, expect to get some push back. That back your climbing down into a dark hole to shoot was never designed to be used down there either, and no, they don't tell you that in the marketing materials over a PhaseOne or at 'Blad. Buy yourself a box of your favorite emulsion, and go shoot. If you need more than a handful of film holders, your subject matter isn't suitable for view camera use. You won't have to deal with color shift issues, and you won't spend another small fortune switching over to yet another digital system that isn't perfect. None of them are. Neither is film, but then you are already used to the problems it presents.

    Johnny, sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but there isn't any holy grail for view camera users when it comes to using digital. Every manufacturer's products have problems. Just as every manufacturer also has work around solutions, including Hassy. Some are tougher, some easier, but they are ALL workarounds. NOBODY makes a back just for view cameras. The market simply is not large enough. With that said however, there are several who have developed a decent workflow that allows them to produce very stunning work. Don Libby is one. There are many others. If I were you, I would not be looking for more or for different gear. I would be looking to invest a small amount of time and money into some very good instruction on how you can develop a workflow yourself that meets your own needs. Even if you eventually do change to different manufacturer's gear, your still going to need that workflow if you ever hope to see the difference on your own screen. With cameras it's all about the glass; with processing it's all about the workflow. Develop one with the right help, your life is a dream. Dream one up yourself based upon some marketing wonk's handywork and I promise you are only building a nightmare, not a dream.

    You didn't learn to be an actor from just your first roll on stage. You can't expect to learn to be a view camera toting photographer shooting difficult lighting setups out in the wilds from a few hundred failed test shots, whatever your Brand of gear. Crazy artists like ourselves always jump head-first into the soup, often to find we're over our heads. Welcome to the "poor and often starving" side of the photographic artist life. I doubt you will listen to the following advice any more than I did, but I'll go ahead and say it anyway, as I sense a kindred spirit.

    Before you go and beat up PhaseOne too, if you decide to buy one of their products, let me also enlighten you on the facts about view cameras since you are new to them. THEY AREN'T EASY TO LEARN TO USE. And almost impossible to learn from reading alone. Good instruction on their use is very much a necessity so you avoid all the bad habits!

    So many naive people invest thousands of dollars on camera gear, but for some reason refuse to invest a few hundred bucks learning how to use it properly. Thank God they make surgeons go to school before cutting on any patients. Any fool can buy a scalpel.

    Those in the know call "View" cameras "TECHNICAL" cameras, and for a reason. They are VERY technical! You need to know a whole lot more about a whole lot more things than you can even imagine, just to get a decent picture out of one. THEN add in the digital parts.... Forget the huge trophy landscape print up on your wall, at least for now.

    You'll be lucky if you get a couple decent "keeper" frames your first six months using it. Just my perspective, others may see things differently. I've owned and shot technical cameras for several years on and off as jobs have required, with four different digital backs from three manufacturers. I STILL own one of the dang things, though an older one. It's a love - hate kind of relationship my view camera and I have. I love the photos, but HATE the workflow getting them demands.

    But I still can't see, setup, adjust, frame, adjust, frame, adjust, move right, backup, frame, adjust, move forward and slightly left, frame, adjust, drag 50lbs of tripod up the next rise for a better composition, set, frame, adjust, move right two feet, set, frame, adjust, focus, replace battery, reconnect cable, shoot, OOPS - quickly cock shutter!, shoot again - only to lug all that heavy gear back to the truck as the light is now GONE and that one frame is worthless - nearly as fast as Jack Flesher or that bloody fool Don Libby who drags one of the suckers through swamps on his belly and makes it look so darn easy. Ask one of those two guys for advice on using a Technical camera, as they both have invested the 10,000 or so hours it takes to learn to use one right.

    And if you think I'm exaggerating calling it a 10,000 hour time investment, please understand that is just my own estimate. I've got around a quarter of that in so far, all off an on - and figure I'm about a quarter of the way there to getting to a point where the artist inside me wants to be, a level with it like Don or Jack, and a few of the others possibly around here, seem to be. I'm a hack with it, and possibly always will be.

    That is also something that Hassy, PhaseOne, Leaf, Sinar, Alpa, Cambo, Rollei, Linhof, and even good old Plaubel, who's camera I presently own, ALL failed to mention in their marketing propaganda I too read when I jumped into this fiasco we fools call a "View" camera. They're a view alright - a view down a very difficult road few will ever travel successfully, and none without investing a whole lot of time, energy, and money - first in the gear, then in the education to learn how to use it, and finally in the 4x4's gas tank you drive to haul the dang thing around!

    Now that I have burst your bubble and possibly ruined your afternoon, let me see if I can't give you some solid advice that may prove useful for the future. First, let me caution you and anyone else fortunate enough to read this before making any buying decisions. The camera business is a very competitive market, one that is well oversupplied with options you can choose. These companies are consolidating very rapidly. There are rumors abounding about Hassy and even the Great Yellow Father of it all, Kodak, being up for sale. Contax is gone. So is Rollei. They both made the superior products in their respective fields, but as Brands they just didn't sell enough of them to stay in business. Bronica was another.

    The old Hassy who built all that great gear that EARNED that Brand's well deserved present reputation was merged with a Danish film scanner company who also made digital backs, to form what is now called "Hasselblad" but it is not the same company, nor is it the same people running it. Those old 500 series 'Blads of mine weren't perfect by any means, and constantly required repairs, adjustments, lubrication, and a pretty fussy workflow loading, cleaning, tweaking, praying and kissing them to keep it all moving the right way, but at the end of the day it all got worked out and the dang things kept going.

    Part of that was good design and great engineering, part was simply great service from a great company that old Victor founded with a very sound set of values and standards. That vision and Victor's determination as his company's CEO to build the finest gear possible in his day, built one of the two premier brand names in the camera marketplace today when you think of quality, both quality of IQ and manufacturing/design/service, the other being Leica. Hasselblad has everything PhaseOne has, save for good old Victor running the place, or someone with Victor's same values and vision. Hassy doesn't need to be sold, it just needs someone like me as it's CEO. Yes, I also run companies in my off hours as a photographer. If their Board of Directors is listening, my email is below. Please consider this my application for the job. And I promise my first act as CEO will be to fire all the dumb *** sales types who don't know the difference between an Alpa and an Alpha, even when the tech support guy for his main competition's primary dealer politely, and in a very gentlemanly manner too Doug, points out his error. <Grin>. Doug's boss would not have been so kind, nor am I to vendors only here to sell us product, not offer constructive suggestions on how to solve our real world problems.

    My second act as CEO would be to immediately call in the entire Sales & Marketing departments and fire the lot of them. The Executives first, and likely most of the rest. I'd cancel the entire advertising budget for the year, and put the account up for review and proposals from other agencies for the new advertising to be done next year on the new product line. And would immediately have a balanced budget once again.

    The new products, 203Dii, the 205Dii, and the full frame sensor 206Dii. As accessories, the Arc-Body, Flex-Body, and SWC/Mark III are all available when the first body ships next spring. In full production quantities, with great German glass again, but also supporting the huge glass investment most folks already have. Enough of the "closed" system and it's lousy electronic manipulations trying to correct for poor optics. That guy who thought that up is gone, time to retire his products as you did him.

    Myself and a small group of other professional photographers sat in a closed, private meeting with the President & CEO of Hasselblad who thought that whole thing up. We listened very politely to everything he had to say, then tried to tell him it sounded great, but wasn't going to work for us before he went and blew it. He's gone, but the chaos he caused is still hanging around.... it needs to go too. Mistakes happen, admit them and get on with life. Not saying you can't take great photos with an H, many do it every day. It isn't the camera though it's the photographer using it. Time to give them a better tool.

    So I would also announce the demise and departure of the whole H system, may it rest in peace along with all those Danish bean counters who though it up in the first place. A VERY fair trade in policy though as a courtesy to our loyal customers will be made, as we will recycle and reuse the sensors those bodies presently have, and will return to our customers their own sensor and usable other parts in their new 203Dii, with the only cost being the difference in the parts and labor and our production costs necessary to effect these upgrades. I estimate this would be about 50% of the retail price of these new bodies, and would carry the same five year warranty all of the new bodies would have. This warranty cost would also be calculated in the upgrade fee.

    And yes, if you buy one of the present products today prior to our shipping the new series cameras, you would get the same guarantee of your upgrade. In fact, if you want the new camera first, our present customers would come first; be the only customers who get a new 203Dii or 205Dii until we have met the demand for upgrades, and extra parts were available to build new bodies for retail sale. Hasselblad would once again appreciate having loyal customers, and would be very happy to prove it by who they take care of first. The lowest cost to market to are a loyal present customer base. Take care of those folks, and you don't need a big advertising budget, costly international shows, advertising agencies, or any of those hundreds in the marketing department. You just need the engineers, men of vision to direct them, and good honest feedback from your existing customer base on how to meet their needs.... You simply need to learn to listen once again.

    Now, if you want the new 206Dii body with the 120MP sensor, THAT puppy is gonna cost you some BIG BUX, but you won't believe what it can do! <Grin>.

    Sorry Johnny, I do tend to wander around when I get started chewing on vendors sometimes.... comes with the territory. Back to your problems, and how to fix them, here's my view. I found Phocus is a good tool if you can ever figure out how to use it, though the same FOOL marketing wonk that thought up the name Phocus must have also designed the user interface. It SUX. So does C1's, in my opinion. But I work and think differently than most folks, so I can't expect much of the world's designs to be for artists. We're weird, right?

    So here is how I fixed the problem. Profiles. Go download CornerFix (google it for sources) and give that a try first. It will probably do all you want for now, and will cost you absolutely nothing. How's that for value? Donate a few bucks to the project too if you keep using it, as that's what keeps the programmers programming new updates. I presently use a much more complicated system of building my own profiles but am discovering that CornerFix can probably do most of what I need too, and much easier.

  6. #56
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    The terrain is harsh as I navigate the thousands of boulders on a steep incline in what appears to be the only route through this thick canopy of trees. The humidity is so thick you wear it like a blanket pressing you down, as if the laws of gravity no longer apply. The air at this altitude makes simple decisions fraught with danger...but then, there, up there, I see a small wooden structure. My pace somehow quickens as the forest canopy looses its grip. Darting in and out of the mist of a cloud I reach my destination. I push open a small wooden door adorned with intricate carvings to reveal a strong odor of candles and incense. A beam of sunlight slices through the wispy trails of incense to expose a well used wooden floor... A shadowy figure emerges from the dark recess from across the room...The shame I once felt has long passed, emboldened by my arduous climb, I speak firmly to the gentle figure whose seems unaffected by my presence, "I have questions", I said. He turns gracefully and pulls back his hair to reveal a smile that shows determination and resolve all at once, from a soul whose seems to have found an inner peace...Holy crap it's Chuck Jones! I say to myself. As the sun fills the room with a gentle glow, I repeat myself..."Questions, I have questions...about...cameras...and stuff.


    Thanks Chuck, for your comments, this is kinda how i've felt about my MFD experience.

  7. #57
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Why do I now see a movie being made from all this? If so I want Tom Selleck to play me...
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  8. #58
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    David,

    You still didn't answer my question about the Hasselblad literature. Whenever you're ready.........."crickets"

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    David,

    You still didn't answer my question about the Hasselblad literature. Whenever you're ready.........."crickets"
    Johnny, you have put Dave in a very tough place. Consider that Hasselblad is Chinese owned (unless Shriro have recently found a buyer for Hasselblad), with all the business cultural values that comes with that, a Swedish management group, and a client base that is predominantly American, with all the consumer expectations that Americans bring to the transaction experience. The business style and communication style, message and tone is not what we had been used to from this organisation before the ownership/management turmoil of the last few years. Chuck's post gives you some clues to what is going on. I, for one, would love to be a fly on the wall at their board and senior management meetings.
    If Dave answers your question candidly here, rather than diplomatically, he'd be in deep pretty deep doo-doo.
    In fairness, the info that Hasselblad apparently failed to disclose to you prior to purchase was and is pretty readily available. Yes, you dealer did a pretty poor job of handling your enquiries, as clearly detailed by Steve Hendricks post. This does highlight one of the strengths of the Phase dealers' approach. They are interested in their clients needs, not just in moving boxes.
    Certainly in Australia, the knowledge and conduct of my Phase dealer vs, my Hasselblad dealer was a major part of my decision to buy Phase. At this level of photography, you are not just buying a piece of gear, you are buying into a relationship with both your dealer and your manufacturer. Yes, I believe they both make best in class pruducts, but this relationship is a major part of why I use Phase One and Alpa.
    Last edited by goesbang; 14th February 2011 at 19:20.
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    Yes, you dealer did a pretty poor job of handling your enquiries, as clearly detailed by Steve Hendricks post. This does highlight one of the strengths of the Phase dealers' approach. They are interested in their clients needs, not just in moving boxes.
    I think that's an unfair statement.

    Each brand is represented by a few good dealers

    Each brand is represented by a few mediocre dealers.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    [QUOTE=dougpetersonci;289771]I think that's an unfair statement.

    Each brand is represented by a few good dealers

    Each brand is represented by a few mediocre dealers.

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    Fair comment Doug.
    I am commenting on my own experience and of my immediate peers.
    Johnny has obviously not been dealing with an organization of CI's philosophy, has he?
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  12. #62
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Bryan
    I agree, the relationship with the dealer is tantamount to the MFD experience. With the knowledge gained from this and other forums, I decided to take another look at Hasselblads web site for info regarding the use of tech/view cameras. The following is an actual paste from Hasselblad: 1. ("H4d-40 has been designed to allow the digital capture unit to be detached and used on a view camera by way of an adapter.
    2.View camera compatibility.Yes, Mechanical shutters controlled via flash sync.
    3.Options for working with tilt/shift, two basic options are available for tilt/shift work with H4d-40. a simple-to-use, portable adapter solution and the classic view camera solution).

    Hasselblad also forgets to mention that you need an external power source to use a view camera, which according to David Grover can only be used sometimes for "obvious reasons". WTF? I still can't find the kind of tech data on Hasselblad's web site, that's readily available on Phase One.

    Conclusion: I made the mistake of not getting more technical info on these DB's., but I looked at the camera, (Hasselblad) as part of a system. I hedged my bet with Hasselblad in regards to my future use of tech/cameras. Perhaps, Hasselblad will include an asterisk on their site in regards to tech/view cameras, and the technical nature associated with them. The symbiotic relationship between a camera and a photographer cannot be understated.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    The relationship between the photographer and his/her dealer is much like a marriage or partnership; it's built on trust. You need to find a good dealer where there is open dialog and give and take to really make you happy. The two must be in the relationship for the long haul.

    Thankfully I found mine!

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  14. #64
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    It should be noted that tech/view cameras do function correctly on other Hasselblad H models i'm told. It was the H4d/40 that it not recommended. Just make sure of the correct model.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Lastly,
    David, I didn't meant to intentionally put you on the spot, I apologize if my method is crude. As Guy and others have pointed out, we (me), need to do the homework! Also, check GetDPI often, check again, ask seemingly dumb questions. Go take photographs, check again with GetDPI and if that fails...throw pebbles at Marc's window!

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    It should be noted that tech/view cameras do function correctly on other Hasselblad H models i'm told. It was the H4d/40 that it not recommended. Just make sure of the correct model.
    The Kodak 31.6 megapixel sensors are also "not ideal" for tech/view cameras. "not ideal" meaning not usable with wide angle lenses with movements (why else would one buy a tech camera??).

    I've personally used the Phsae One P30+ on tech/view cameras and can tell you that while it's a great back for many types of photography it is not the back to buy if tech/view cameras are even a moderate possibility for your future.

    The H4D-31 is built around the same sensor as the Phase One P30+.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Who's throwing rocks at my window?

    This discussion has flipped back and forth between a 31 and 40 meg sensor. Can't speak to a H4D/31, never used one ... can speak to a H4D/40 ...

    Have done T/S work with the H4D/40. I use the Hasselblad HTS unit for most of it. Max shifts for panoramic landscapes, and tilts in studio for product work to increase DOF, or for portraits to control OOF areas ... with no additional post corrections other than those programed into Phocus (I posted panos in a thread about this including close ups of the corners and edges, and some are still in my GetDPI gallery).

    When occasionally needing both front and rear standard movements ... which the HTS and tech cameras like an ALPA do not provide, I use the a Rollie Xact-II ... which requires shooting a white calibration image and use of Phocus software features when using my Schneider 28mm ... which admittedly I use infrequently. Most of this is done tethered in studio or on location. I have shot with T/S on location requiring use of the Image Bank-II to provide power, but it does facilitate rapid capture and redundant storage of up to 800 to 1000 images for back-up when shooting once in a lifetime images or non-repeatable events/set-ups. Not comparatively ideal for climbing down into some exotic location, but possible. So, other than the omission of the power source requirement, the literature on the H4D/40 is correct as far as I am concerned.

    In addition, unlike 40 meg Dalsa sensor backs, the H4D/40 can do up to 4+ minute exposures and very clean ISO 1600 at full resolution, not MFD resolution from 10 years ago ... which I have also posted images of in a thread. Depends on what's important to you.

    That said, if someone said they were very interested in a tech camera such as an ALPA and wide angle lenses for mobile field work, I would refer them to someone that owns and uses one, since I do not.

    Personally, were I very interested in that as an exclusive camera platform, the only DB I would look to is Phase One. Hassey requires use of the Image Bank-II or separate power source plugged into the back for field work, and other solutions such as the Hassey CF backs and Leaf Aptus require a battery hanging off the DB, Phase doesn't. Personally, I wouldn't even consider anything other than the new IQ backs for this type of application since focusing tech or view cameras with movements is VERY difficult, and the new IQ backs have innovations that clearly aid in that chore.

    However, I am NOT interested in a tech camera as an exclusive platform, preferring the fully integrated H4 system diversity and option of the HTS, waist level finder, 35-90D lens, all leaf shutter optics, True Focus/APL, etc. For anything close to that diversity with a Phase One back I would have to use a tech camera and a Phamiya 645 camera ... which is the last camera on earth I would personally choose no matter how many band-aids they put on it. Love the backs, hate the camera.

    Again, depends on what is important to you because nothing is perfect for all uses in all degrees of applications ... something gets compromised somewhere. BTW, comparing a H4D/31 entry level system to a full blown Phase IQ kit on an ALPA or other exotic camera worthy of such a back, is a financial anomaly of titanic proportions You get what you pay for.

    -Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Dealing with this gear stuff has become a past time that has grown expodentially as everything has become more complex and specialized, and product cycles have grown shorter and shorter ... not to mention horrifying expensive.
    Amen to that!

    I think MFD is simply too complicated - it's not that I don't understand how it works or can't handle it, but it engages the wrong parts of my brain and distracts from my photography. It definitely promotes what I like to call "recipe shooting" - and each image looks just like the previous. Same angles, same composition, same light as all the previous shots made using the same "recipe". This is especially problematic in the domain of landscape where rearranging and experimenting with light means footwork. Literally. There's only so many hours in a day and so many days in a week.

    I like my Leica M9 (and before that Mamiya 7) so much more, for all the things it is not. I can see an eagle in a tree and don't ask myself if I can get a shot of it. Because I can't. Instead I allow it to become part of the holistic impression used to inspire my own expression. At some other time I grab different gear and go "look for eagles," but each has its own mental zone. They're really wildly different activities. Of course, to a large extent it's about not have the whole SLR thing in front of me, but MFD definitely makes it worse. So what if the quality isn't as good - it's good enough for me. Last I heard, Mozart was still brilliant even if played on a boombox.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    i disagree that MF shooting, even with it's complexity, has to be formulaic; just look at the film work of many masters, large format and medium format: Penn, Avedon, Brett and Edward, Ansel, Caponigro, Strand, etc. plenty of variety.

    On the other hand, i do know what you mean: see the shot, set up the tripod, frame the shot, etc. is not so spontaneous. maybe that is what you meant.

    there are plenty of excellent photographers who capture the moment, and probably all are shooting handheld with SLR or RF. Wasn't that the reason the leica was developed in the first place?

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    There's a zone when shooting people. But there's also a zone when shooting landscapes; it's very different. More holistic and less focused/exclusionary. It's a sort of meditative visual and contextual awareness. I find complex equipment interferes with it. I'm not saying IQ or real estate doesn't matter; I'm saying complex-to-operate equipment easily becomes a distraction. It's easy to lose the vision of the end result while twiddling with a camera where lenses don't even have usable DOF scales.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    So what if the quality isn't as good - it's good enough for me. Last I heard, Mozart was still brilliant even if played on a boombox.
    I'm not sure the analogy holds perfectly, but I hate listening to good jazz through poor speakers. It's worse than not listening to it at all. Don't get me wrong - I don't need a $20k set of speakers to enjoy the music, but I'm not going to listen to it on laptop speakers. And those rare occasions when I've been able to beg/borrow/steal a really nice set of speakers it has, in fact, enhanced my experience listening to the music.

    Ugh - Arturo's trumpet on cheap tinny speakers. Can't stand it.

    Re: fotografz - as you note the HTS largely avoids the issues of wide angles and movements by using a 1.5X piece of glass which keeps even the widest lens far enough away from the sensor to avoid severe angles of light. If the OP is ok with the advantages and limitations of the HTS then that could be a good work around for him. The widest lens would be 42mm (28mm X 1.5) with the ability to stitch back for a bit more wideness - somewhat limiting on a cropped sensor back, but he would gain TTL focus/composition and auto-corrections when using Phocus.

    That really should have been pointed out earlier. However, I suppose everyone was focused on pancake/tech cameras where strongly micro-lensed sensors are much more limited.

    By the way, regarding your tilt/swing experiences: If you're talking about the early generation 28mm Schneider with your studio work that lens, I'm sure you'd confirm, is mediocre at best. It is a very strong retro-focus design made originally to allow 35mm dSLRs to work on view cameras. Because of the strong retro-focus design I would imagine it allows some moderate movements even on strongly micro-lensed sensors. Also, longer lenses (e.g. Schneider 72XL) are far enough away from the sensor that it should allow even moderate movements without much issue.

    The real test is lenses like the Rodenstock 23mm, or Schneiders XL series (24/35/43/47). In fact the Schneider 24 and 35 are so extreme (meaning non retro focus with very wide angles of view) that even Dalsa sensors which have historically provided the best view camera lens compatibility can be somewhat problematic.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    There's a zone when shooting people. But there's also a zone when shooting landscapes; it's very different. More holistic and less focused/exclusionary. It's a sort of meditative visual and contextual awareness. I find complex equipment interferes with it. I'm not saying IQ or real estate doesn't matter; I'm saying complex-to-operate equipment easily becomes a distraction. It's easy to lose the vision of the end result while twiddling with a camera where lenses don't even have usable DOF scales.
    Travel Camera (Cambo/Arca) - 35mm XL - hyperfocal at f/11.5 - ISO50 -Sunny 16 rule - Phase/Leaf digital back with integrated battery.

    I cannot think of a less complicated camera system. No focusing, no need to fine tune exposure, no need to worry about DOF, don't have to review the images. Simple, relaxed, enjoyable, tactile photography. As a bonus it sports truly fantastic image quality.

    Complexity in medium format is exactly as much as you wish it to be.

    On the other end of the spectrum you could get an H20, laptop, and a quad-stitch sliding back Kapture Group adapter for an old school 4x5 view camera and attach a hand-held controller based electronic shutter. That takes a rocket scientist and a lot of experience to do right.

    Re: usable DOF scales - all the DOF scales out there can be used for very accurate DOF calculations - you just have to do the legwork to find the conversion factor from film to your particular digital back (or buy from a dealer who does it for you).

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Alpa with P40+ and 24 XL centerfilter focused at 7 feet at F14. Easy peasy except I can't see what I am doing. Need new IQ . LOL

    Just kidding it was not bad at all but I was laying down almost to see my LCD. New IQ will make this type of work a walk in the park. For a guy that does not use a Tech camera often , I did find this a joy to shoot on the workshop and almost every image with it is on the money. But this 24mm with a P40+ Dalsa is problematic as Doug mentioned.

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Travel Camera (Cambo/Arca) - 35mm XL - hyperfocal at f/11.5 - ISO50 -Sunny 16 rule - Phase/Leaf digital back with integrated battery.

    I cannot think of a less complicated camera system. No focusing, no need to fine tune exposure, no need to worry about DOF, don't have to review the images. Simple, relaxed, enjoyable, tactile photography. As a bonus it sports truly fantastic image quality.
    I'm only shooting tech camera now and love the simplicity of the shooting. There is not a lot of simplicity in the decision making that is well covered in this thread. I'm going through that now in choosing lenses for a big uncropped back.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    I'm only shooting tech camera now...
    What?? You can't mean that's your only camera now.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by tom in mpls View Post
    What?? You can't mean that's your only camera now.
    Almost....Well I sold the DF body and Phase lenses. So my MF setup is only the tech camera.

    That is supplemented by micro 4/3 for the time being. I put together a light but long lens kit for a safari this summer. Unfortunately, the GH2 bodies are on backorder so I have the lenses and no bodies. I've sold off just about everything else but a NEX 5.....and I will cop to having a Fuji X100 on pre-order

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    I've shot landscapes from a Canon AE-1 to a Mamiya 645 to several LF cameras to various DSLR's, I'm happy to take or leave the technology. If it's there then I'll use it should I choose, if it isn't then I know I can shoot just as well without. I don't let it's presence or lack of presence effect me as a photographer though.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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  28. #78
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Agree Ben. Just give me something to shoot and i will find my way.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Alpa with P40+ and 24 XL centerfilter focused at 7 feet at F14. Easy peasy except I can't see what I am doing. Need new IQ . LOL

    Just kidding it was not bad at all but I was laying down almost to see my LCD. New IQ will make this type of work a walk in the park. For a guy that does not use a Tech camera often , I did find this a joy to shoot on the workshop and almost every image with it is on the money. But this 24mm with a P40+ Dalsa is problematic as Doug mentioned.
    Ugh....

    This (image) almost makes me want to pull the trigger, get an Alpa and an IQ and go for it.


    BTW on the part of the H4 manual. It also only mentions the use on a view camera while tethered. It doesn't even mention non-tethered use on a view camera. If the OP is that anal about the manual this already should have been a waiving flag. If it is not in a manual I usually assume it doesn't work or get very cautious about it. Now I really think he has had a bad dealer (where is his dealer in all of this anyway?) next to changing his mind somewhere halfway. Would his dealer have advised him differently when he would have stated being interested in using a tech camera, like an Alpa, right from the start?

    Anyway, apparently the situation is like it currently is. Complaining about it is not going to help you any further. As Marc I agree in principal we as photographers should not have to deal with this kind of **** however the reality is different unfortunately. I hope you can resolve this in a satisfactorial way with your dealer.
    Last edited by Dustbak; 16th February 2011 at 06:35.

  30. #80
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Almost....Well I sold the DF body and Phase lenses. So my MF setup is only the tech camera.
    I TOTALLY understand the desire to do this.

    I love the simplicity of the tech camera with a matched MFDB for landscape work. As an amateur it really hits the mark for me vs the automation and relative speed of a DSLR solution such as the DF.

    I don't think that Chuck is far off the mark here though for the work required to become truly proficient with technical cameras though.

  31. #81
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    I tend to agree any good dealer could have pointed him in the right direction regardless of a sale or not. This stuff is beyond selling a cam to someone what it is COMPLETELY about is making sure his customer is totally informed on the system. But it is also a customers responsibility as well to let dealer know what type of shooting he is going to do. Is that not what we say when we get a new member on the forum and ask the question I am thinking of going into MF. I know as part owner here our members jump to help but also ask the QUESTION what are you planning to do with a MF system.

    Now i don't know every detail of what happened with the OP and I am a HUGE propionate of doing your homework before jumping into the fires of Dante's inferno and i don't care what system you decide on I really don't but some of this falls on our own shoulders to get what you need today and what you think you may need tomorrow. This is simply capital expenditure 101 type stuff.

    Also i am going to point this out one more time this forum is loaded with details and yes it maybe hard to get all the data but a day's worth of homework here should answer almost any question. Not to mention you can ask the questions yourself.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I TOTALLY understand the desire to do this.

    I love the simplicity of the tech camera with a matched MFDB for landscape work. As an amateur it really hits the mark for me vs the automation and relative speed of a DSLR solution such as the DF.

    I don't think that Chuck is far off the mark here though for the work required to become truly proficient with technical cameras though.
    I personally would have a extremely difficult time getting to tech cam only but that is me and still require the DSLR style MF body. But i do understand the love of getting to tech cam only. I had a ball with the Alpa TC which i always had a love affair for and it was really easy to work with in the field. But I simple use every lens in the bag from 24/28 to 300 and interestingly enough doing the workshop type work for some reason my 150 gets a lot of use in the total package of images but that damn 110mm has me wanting. LOL

    I may just sell my 28mm to get the 110mm. Okay i am a sick bastard i know that but I am a lens freak too.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Guy - I agree that you can look up the answers to a lot of questions. The problem is not knowing what questions to ask.

  34. #84
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Damn just sent a note to my dealer. i am so bad
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Guy - I agree that you can look up the answers to a lot of questions. The problem is not knowing what questions to ask.
    Yea i tend to agree but even a good general question uncovers a lot of solutions as well. Maybe in this case a stretch but I do encourage people to participate and ask questions. I see the numbers of visitors everyday and amount of members we have . DON'T BE SHY, ask us . LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Yea i tend to agree but even a good general question uncovers a lot of solutions as well. Maybe in this case a stretch but I do encourage people to participate and ask questions. I see the numbers of visitors everyday and amount of members we have . DON'T BE SHY, ask us . LOL
    Very wise words. I've learnt a lot here at GetDPI by not being shy about asking questions, some dumb, some less dumb / naive and so on. The folks here are generally very helpful, genuine, friendly and knowledgeable and typically won't put you down for asking basic questions (unless you're a troll of course!).

    LuLa also can be helpful although a little less friendly than the forum & community that Guy & Jack have created here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I personally would have a extremely difficult time getting to tech cam only but that is me and still require the DSLR style MF body.
    Ah but remember, I don't need to create a pay cheque for my efforts! If I did then it would be a different situation altogether.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Agree Graham if your not relying on the diversity of clients than you can go it alone as a hobbyist without some of those needs I have as a Pro , no question. Bottom line and we all need to remember this as the hobbyist it is WHATEVER you want to do with your photography. You all just tick me off since it is all about fun and doing whatever YOU want to do without rules. I would kill for that sometimes. I do envy the hobbyist and have great respect for them, reason I like to teach them.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  38. #88
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Dustbak,

    Again, I didn't change my mind halfway, I did in fact, replace a faulty camera(s), that's it. Nothing to do with the tech/view camera options.
    When researching for cameras that would evolve with me, I assumed that Hasselblad would go along for the ride. For me, the natural progression in researching a product is to go to the source first, and disseminate the info. Reading the tech data is a good starting point. I bet it's safe to say most here, when purchasing gear, probably did the same. The limitations that were apparently obvious were not included in the data. Instead of just looking at the diagram, actually read the information and tell me without knowing too much quantum physics if you would assume the same. And if not, point out where I read that wrong...anyone.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Guy, I love the wide photograph, Nice DOF! It's these photos that make me as giddy as a school girl! I know... I actually just wrote that, but it's true.

    Truth be told, had I the pleasure of being exposed to the wonderful info available on GetDPI, prior to my purchase, the decision would have been different. Knowledge is power! And with that, my future purchase IS based in part, to the generosity of many here, combined with reams of data if you know what to look for, and the invaluable reviews from people actually using the gear, instead of biased marketing gloss.

    Yes, it's my fault.

  40. #90
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Terry,

    Absolutely agreed!

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Truth be told, had I the pleasure of being exposed to the wonderful info available on GetDPI, prior to my purchase, the decision would have been different. Knowledge is power! And with that, my future purchase IS based in part, to the generosity of many here, combined with reams of data if you know what to look for, and the invaluable reviews from people actually using the gear, instead of biased marketing gloss.

    Yes, it's my fault.
    I think that the fast paced world of instant gratification is seeping in to us. We like an idea, think about it and get it, just because we can afford it! In good old days when finances were a bit tight, and no internet, a lot of search and research was done before acquiring your dream. Now we mostly do the research once the deal turns sour.

    To believe in the manufacturer's literature, especially in today's scenario is a bit naive, I would always verify all the claims on a relevant forum, be it a camera, a car or a plane. What I have learned in this forum and others like it, is that the manufacturer can claim (and at times remain silent on crucial points), but it is upto us the paying customers to see beyond the sales speak, and verify the suitability of the goods to our requirements.

  42. #92
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Well said but we are all guilty of some instant gratification on some purchases. Lenses for sure. I know I am
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post

    ...Yes, it's my fault.
    It only becomes a "fault" (ie mistakes) if you refuse to take heed to your past experiences and the knowledge gained!

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    David,

    You still didn't answer my question about the Hasselblad literature. Whenever you're ready.........."crickets"
    No crickets or tumbleweeds Johnny.

    I don't monitor the forum 24/7 and was consequently travelling last week.

    Anyway, to the matter in hand.

    As nobody was present when yourself and your (NY?) dealer had your conversations, I don't know to what extent you spoke about technical camera connectivity.

    I agree we need more information regarding tech camera usage, and I already mentioned earlier on in the thread that we are producing such a document.

    If you like, PM your dealer name, Ill give them a call and then we can get you on the road to happy shooting.

    How does that sound?

    David

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Sounds great to me David and glad to see you jump in full force. Thanks Guy
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  46. #96
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Seems a good moment to say that having met David Grover, and seen him work, he's clearly a very knowledgable and helpful guy. I've also met Yair and the same comments apply to him. They're about as far removed from the "salesperson" stereotype as I can imagine. I'd bet they could easily get work elsewhere, even in this economic climate, and it's to their enormous credit that they stick around certain forums despite the hard time they're often given. Sadly, that's even creeping into this forum slightly. Doesn't matter which camp you're a fanboy of, surely it's worth being polite to people like David, Steve, Doug and Yair? I have yet to see a post from one of them that wasn't designed to be helpful, often ignoring plain old-fashioned rudeness. Thanks guys and I hope you find the strength to keep it up.

  47. #97
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Thanks Stew! Much appreciated.

  48. #98
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Re: usable DOF scales - all the DOF scales out there can be used for very accurate DOF calculations
    Except the ones about 1/2" wide in a tiny little window...

  49. #99
    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    Except the ones about 1/2" wide in a tiny little window...
    I agree that this is an irritating feature of many newer lenses. Adding AF to a lens has somehow been interpreted by some lens designers as "they will never need to look at the focus scale again".

    I like the older MF M645 lenses for this and many other reasons. Proper focus/DOF scales; real aperture rings; enabling adaptability to 35mm DSLRs like my Canon 5DII; cheaper; often faster. I shoot at or close to wide open a lot of the time, so the stop-down metering and composition doesn't really bother me.

    Would I swap my MF 200/2.8 APO for an AF 210/4 ULD? Not on your nelly.

    Ray

  50. #100
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Alpa with P40+ and 24 XL centerfilter focused at 7 feet at F14. Easy peasy except I can't see what I am doing. Need new IQ . LOL

    Just kidding it was not bad at all but I was laying down almost to see my LCD. New IQ will make this type of work a walk in the park. For a guy that does not use a Tech camera often , I did find this a joy to shoot on the workshop and almost every image with it is on the money. But this 24mm with a P40+ Dalsa is problematic as Doug mentioned.

    Guy, that's lovely. Reminiscent of the polar regions of Mars (except the sky is too blue!)

    Ray

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