Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

[Dustbak]

Euh... I don't really get you. I think it is foolish to waive all responsibility and place it at someone else. I know it is apparently a sign of this time but at this level YOU should take your own responsibility. Do your own due diligence and do it thoroughly.

The issue with movements and micro-lenses has come up more than once over the years in all sorts of places. Even if it is not mentioned in 'official literature' it is something that many people will tell you as soon as you ask on any of the places where people hang out that use this stuff.

YOU should know that a smaller recording area has limitations over a larger one in areas including wide-angles. This is simple photography theory. You cannot make someone else responsible over a lack of your own knowledge in areas.

I feel for you but from the sound of it you have had both bad experiences and a change of heart over time. Welcome to the club, we all had these. True, there are bad dealers and not everything is in the available literature but most stuff going haywire is operator error so to speak. Or progressive insights leading to a different craving of materials. Move on and enjoy the stuff you have learned the hard way.

 

[KeithL]

I decided to go with Hasselblad when transitioning to MFD, mostly because of name familiarity and a good reputation.

You spent a small fortune based on name familiarity and reputation?

After buying my H3D/31/II, the value dropped almost $4000 in less than 500 shutter clicks. It was replaced with H4D, only to see the price drop again as another model was released (h4D31) within months.

And how exactly did this affect your images?

I could go on and on about my frustration with Hasselblad's pricing structure and the insulting trade up offers from a reputable dealer in NYC.- and let's not get started on the closed system...But I also fell for marketing because I didn't realize how obsessed I would become with technical cameras (6x9) and the digital integration. But I thought it's okay, Hasselblad's brochure says you can mount a technical DB on a view camera! For my model H4D, there's a cute diagram of a DB and view camera that appear to be easy to integrate, heck they don't even show you the battery bank you'll need to power it...oops! Any DB that has micro-lenses is not recommended for technical use because certain obtuse lighting conditions can cause considerable color shifts. Why doesn't Hasselblad mention this? I'm not saying it's a bad product, just misleading.

You spent a small fortune - twice - and didn't think to do your own research?

Sorry if my reply seems harsh but I have difficulty sympathising with folk changing their systems - and minds - more often than their underpants and then blaming everyone but themselves when it goes tits up.

 

[PeterA]

Guy - For new people - actually getting the information from a thread search isn't really easy - a lot of information is in lots of threads spread out around over time - and often not even related to the original thread starter - just a fact of life. For regular people who hav ebeen with the forum over a number of years the information and shared expereinces is sitting in our heads ...but if a person hasnt gone through the journey it isnt.

I am happy to be able to draw on the wealth of knowledge offered by people like Doug, David, Yair, David from Dale and others who ocassionally post - but these peopel aren't representative of the typical dealer out there - hence my statement- find someone who knows whatyou want to do and shows you how to do it - perhaps one your course may be a good plan!

 

[fotografz]

I trusted the sales pitch...my bad!

Marc, after your extensive posts with the S2, I thought you would understand best. I only posted about the deceptive nature about Hasselblad's literature, and how it relates to my view camera desires. I don't want to just buy an S2 with several lenses and H4D/60's to compliment my Leica M9. I want a camera system to function as advertised and for the "obvious" reasons!

Actually, I DO understand. My comment only suggested it prudent to slow down and educate yourself before spending yet more money.

My saga with the S2, which I documented here, is an example of doing exactly that ... NOT buying into marketing spin or words like "perfection" etc.... and that caution extends to ALL these makers and sellers of every brand and their particular style of marketing spin ... it's YOUR money, not theirs!

So, after testing the S2 a year prior and rejecting it as not ready, I dogged every report and image posted, read every review, asked questions, until finally trying it again ... as in testing it. I NEVER paid for the camera until it was as promised, and felt that issues would be addressed by Leica service quickly and without angst ... which they did.

Guy, Jack, myself and most anyone with experience will tell you that it is essential to do a hands on even if you have to rent it. And even more essential is the selection of dealer, how they fit you personally, and how well they can handle issues which can manifest themselves with any of these complex systems.

As to value ... let me share this with you as further example ... I paid a bloody fortune for an Aptus 75s which at the time I was using on a Mamiya 645-III, an awful camera that ate batteries, required two separate start ups, and I could never get the Metz TTL to work properly, with AF that couldn't find its own a$$ with both hands if not shot at high noon ... not long afterwards Leaf announced the AFi, promising excellent AF, Schneider and Zeiss optics, ... which I immediately demoed ... basically sporting the SAME DB as my 75s ... not only could I NOT use my Leaf back on the Leaf AFi ... period, end of conversation, the regional rep demoing the AFi wasn't interested in allowing me to trade in the almost new 75s toward it ... suggesting I sell my kit ... equating to a ferocious loss in a few brief months.

Buyer Beware.

-Marc

 

[Terry]

YOU should know that a smaller recording area has limitations over a larger one in areas including wide-angles. This is simple photography theory. You cannot make someone else responsible over a lack of your own knowledge in areas.

I was with your whole post except for this part. A smaller sensor allows for more lenses to be used rather than fewer (smaller sensor doesn't always equal micro lenses). On the wide angle lenses such as the Schneider 24mm it works out OK on a P40+ but is dreadful on a P65+. The smaller crop sensors crop out the worst areas at the edges where the angle of light hitting the sensor is at the worst angle causing the worst color shifts and banding that is hard to correct.



.

 

[Dustbak]

Yes, you are right. I should have phrased it like. 'You should have been aware what the consequences are of getting a smaller recording area or at least get informed'.

What might be disadvantages in one area can be advantages in another.

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

KeithL,
Try reading my comment. I was happy with Hasselblad as it pertains to my analog use, so I assumed, based on their reputation and my familiarity with there products, that the transition would be a good one. If something works, I usually stick with a product...it's called loyalty. I didn't spend 2 small fortunes on Hasselblad products, I was only commenting on their pricing structure and frustrating kit offers and the horrible re-sale value of each product. Just look at Fotografz price on his recently sold H4D...yikes! Everyone knows of the nature of planned obsolescence in the digital world, but when a dealer offers an $ 8000.00 lens as part of a kit that you just paid the same amount for days earlier with a much lesser lens kit, then do the math! I paid for one camera only, but it took 4 models due to constant technical malfunctions to get it right.
My original comment was about the fact that Hasselblad is deceptive in their advertising on the use of technical cameras which is where my love of photography has naturally taken me. Phase at least states which DB's they recommend. My images were not affected at all, but that's not the point.

Dustbak, funny that's my Hasselblads nickname. I only started reading these forums after getting into MFD, because i'm usually out taking photographs! And yes, it should be mentioned in a products literature...your kidding right? Also, thanks for the lesson on theory, but I already commented on that. In addition, the only change I sought was to make my photography more important to me and thus, go technical. So yes, to a degree i'm at fault for not researching the reams of data on on the quantum nature of sensors and the relationship with technical cameras, but I'm a trusting person, so when my very experienced dealer and Hasselblad's own tech data says these will work on a view camera... so it should!
As one progresses in their endeavors the learning curve tends to follow them, but this particular forum has turned into something all together different then what I expected. Shouldn't we share experiences and encourage ideas that are exchanged instead of pointing fingers and making disparaging comments on one's lack of experience. The word forum means, a place to exchange ideas and views.

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

Meant to say the cropped sensor actually aids with wider lenses

 

[Dustbak]

Most people here are willing to share and help out and I like to think I am as well.

From your remarks to me it seems you are somewhat sour, which is really understandable BTW, however the only thing I was trying to point out is that I believe you should not blame everyone but yourself. As a reaction to your pointing of fingers to everyone besides yourself.

Thank you for reminding someone with a classical education about the meaning of 'forum'. It has indeed been a long time ago. I think I have given you my view on this...

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

Dustbak,

Sour...you think? I'm not blaming everyone else for my Hasselblad fiasco, I'm blaming my dealer, who by the way, represents Hasselblad! After several faulty cameras that wouldn't function in almost as many months , I do in fact, blame myself after spending that kind of money for a product whose QC was/is at question! Please understand that Hasselblad was fantastic at replacing all the cameras. The solder issue that jammed the mirror apparently has happened before, according to a tech I spoke with. You would be sour too, if you had to climb deep into a canyon to compose a perfect shot, with limited lighting, only to have to re-set that friggin battery again! For that amount of money these remedial fixes should not happen, but they do, almost every time I shoot with this camera! In regards to the original frustration of view camera use, perhaps someone will find somewhere on Hasselblads website or literature that advocates the use of non mirrored DB's...just curious. Let me be clear that prior to my purchase, I had no technical camera experience at all...I know, it shows, but that's why I started to read forums with classically trained photographers such as yourself.

 

[fotografz]

KeithL,
Try reading my comment. I was happy with Hasselblad as it pertains to my analog use, so I assumed, based on their reputation and my familiarity with there products, that the transition would be a good one. If something works, I usually stick with a product...it's called loyalty. I didn't spend 2 small fortunes on Hasselblad products, I was only commenting on their pricing structure and frustrating kit offers and the horrible re-sale value of each product. Just look at Fotografz price on his recently sold H4D...yikes! Everyone knows of the nature of planned obsolescence in the digital world, but when a dealer offers an $ 8000.00 lens as part of a kit that you just paid the same amount for days earlier with a much lesser lens kit, then do the math! I paid for one camera only, but it took 4 models due to constant technical malfunctions to get it right.
My original comment was about the fact that Hasselblad is deceptive in their advertising on the use of technical cameras which is where my love of photography has naturally taken me. Phase at least states which DB's they recommend. My images were not affected at all, but that's not the point.

Dustbak, funny that's my Hasselblads nickname. I only started reading these forums after getting into MFD, because i'm usually out taking photographs! And yes, it should be mentioned in a products literature...your kidding right? Also, thanks for the lesson on theory, but I already commented on that. In addition, the only change I sought was to make my photography more important to me and thus, go technical. So yes, to a degree i'm at fault for not researching the reams of data on on the quantum nature of sensors and the relationship with technical cameras, but I'm a trusting person, so when my very experienced dealer and Hasselblad's own tech data says these will work on a view camera... so it should!
As one progresses in their endeavors the learning curve tends to follow them, but this particular forum has turned into something all together different then what I expected. Shouldn't we share experiences and encourage ideas that are exchanged instead of pointing fingers and making disparaging comments on one's lack of experience. The word forum means, a place to exchange ideas and views.

RE: My recently sold H4D/40 ... you have zero idea what I paid for it ... I did okay because I'm a savvy shopper ... more importantly, what I made WITH it is where the value was. Great camera, zero issues, worked every time. Sorry yours didn't.

Now what's the point of repeating yourself over and over and over and over and over ... while devaluing the very camera you just said you are going to sell? Will you put a link to this thread in your F/S ad to be up front with the full disclosure that's so important to you? :ROTFL:

Good luck with that :thumbup:

-Marc

 

[johnnygoesdigital]

Marc,

I did in fact, get offered $1800.00 more than your updated price for an S2. So, for me, it's like getting free use of a camera for the year. And I was only repeating certain aspects to reply to a comment, but thanks for not taking sides.

Your cute funny smiley faces really do put an emphasis on the points you made!

Alas, this forum may not be for me...I post comments and instead of practical useful knowledge to disseminate, I have to defend my comments...all the time. Although, gentleman like PeterA and others don't judge me on my lack of MFD experience, they encourage and inspire (pic of woman with Leica...thanks Peter) and great photographers like Don Libby who also share similar experiences, and of course Bryan Siebel...dude you rock! There's more of course, and I do appreciate all i've learned. Most of you are amazing professionals and the generous nature of photographers to share their recipes is an outstanding quality! This is how we learn...

 

[fotografz]

Marc,

I did in fact, get offered $1800.00 more than your updated price for an S2. So, for me, it's like getting free use of a camera for the year. And I was only repeating certain aspects to reply to a comment, but thanks for not taking sides.

Your cute funny smiley faces really do put an emphasis on the points you made!

Alas, this forum may not be for me...I post comments and instead of practical useful knowledge to disseminate, I have to defend my comments...all the time. Although, gentleman like PeterA and others don't judge me on my lack of MFD experience, they encourage and inspire (pic of woman with Leica...thanks Peter) and great photographers like Don Libby who also share similar experiences, and of course Bryan Siebel...dude you rock! There's more of course, and I do appreciate all i've learned. Most of you are amazing professionals and the generous nature of photographers to share their recipes is an outstanding quality! This is how we learn...

No one is taking sides ... people offer up their opinion and if you don't like that opinion you keep stating the same thing over and over, we got it the first time, and offered an opinion ... that's all it is, an opinion. Then if you don't like that opinion you deem it not being useful ... when in fact it is, but you just don't want to hear it. So then those who you don't agree with you by thinly veiled implication aren't gentlemen, or great photographers, or don't "rock dude."

Next time you post, just add the caveat that you do not want to hear anything from anyone that doesn't agree with you. It'll keep things simple.

-Marc

BTW, where can I get that S2 for $13,600. ... because I'll take it !!!! :thumbup:

 

[rhsu]

Johnny,

Tech camera + White shading a must especially with wide lenses and movements. I have used both Phase and Sinar DBs and the LCC post prod software works VERY VERY well!

Enjoy...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I admit that I was a little naive when starting my MFD experience. For years I shot with a Canon 1dsMKII and an analog Hasselblad. I decided to go with Hasselblad when transitioning to MFD, mostly because of name familiarity and a good reputation. My fascination with fine art landscapes compelled me to seek better resolution and aspect ratio, and MFD seemed a perfect match. After buying my H3D/31/II, the value dropped almost $4000 in less than 500 shutter clicks. It was replaced with H4D, only to see the price drop again as another model was released (h4D31) within months. I could go on and on about my frustration with Hasselblad's pricing structure and the insulting trade up offers from a reputable dealer in NYC.- and let's not get started on the closed system...But I also fell for marketing because I didn't realize how obsessed I would become with technical cameras (6x9) and the digital integration. But I thought it's okay, Hasselblad's brochure says you can mount a technical DB on a view camera! For my model H4D, there's a cute diagram of a DB and view camera that appear to be easy to integrate, heck they don't even show you the battery bank you'll need to power it...oops! Any DB that has micro-lenses is not recommended for technical use because certain obtuse lighting conditions can cause considerable color shifts. Why doesn't Hasselblad mention this? I'm not saying it's a bad product, just misleading.

Any advice on Phase One or Leaf's DB's would be appreciated as I'm selling my H gear for a 645DF. I like the idea of using a 645DF for most of my needs and then taking the DB off to go hike with an Alpha or say a Linhof or perhaps an Arca Swiss...to quench my obsession...for the moment.

The problem here is you may have jumped off the diving board before putting your toe in the water. This happens a lot and people don't realize if they may have had a mistake or not. **** happens and forums are a good place to ASK these questions and also check with a reputable dealer and figure out EXACTLY what you are buying. This is my homework clause that comes with MF and it gets repeated here all the time. Marketing is marketing and not everything is brought up in brochures and advertising pieces. Otherwise you may see more disclaimers than real content. So being naive as you said going into MF can be a deadly experience and that just proves getting all the facts up front which being excited going in always seems to fall on the back burner of the excitement scale. Totally understandable.
This is where a good dealer will go over all the REAL facts and forums like
this get you a good start in asking the questions what to expect. As someone said the proof is in the details. Lesson learned now you need to figure out what to do next instead of being frustrated you did not get what you needed. I think moving forward and getting you on the right path is the best solution now. How to make a exchange, trade or return is something you should be thinking about. Your looking for a bail out so need to figure out the best solution. Hope that helps

 

[thomas]

If somebody was going to exclusively use one of our products on a tech camera then I would urge them away from the micro lensed type for obvious reasons.

If it is occasional use, then based on experience, I would not tell them it was impossible or that they couldn't handle any potential cast issues.

info without liability ... sorry.
"Occasional use" doesn't mean that the respective application is unimportant ...even if you use the DB on a tech camera only once a year you still want that one picture in high quality... don't you think so? Anyway...

My question is: based on what experience exactly? Which LF lenses work with a H/31? How much movements can you apply with the respective lenses?
Is the H/31 better suited to use on a tech camera than the H/40... due to the larger pixel pitch of the H/31? Or is the H/40 better suited than the H/31... maybe due to a different design of the microlenses on that new sensor despite of the smaller pixel pitch?
These issues pop up from time to time... but nobody ever adressed the questions in detail.

I use a sensor without microlenses (P45) and a sensor with microlenses (P21+) on a tech camera... so I do have some experience with both types of sensors (limited though as I actually only use 2 lenses). This is why I think your generalized statement above doesn't help anyone, quite the contrary.

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

info without liability ... sorry.
"Occasional use" doesn't mean that the respective application is unimportant ...even if you use the DB on a tech camera only once a year you still want that one picture in high quality... don't you think so? Anyway...

My question is: based on what experience exactly? Which LF lenses work with a H/31? How much movements can you apply with the respective lenses?
Is the H/31 better suited to use on a tech camera than the H/40... due to the larger pixel pitch of the H/31? Or is the H/40 better suited than the H/31... maybe due to a different design of the microlenses on that new sensor despite of the smaller pixel pitch?
These issues pop up from time to time... but nobody ever adressed the questions in detail.

I use a sensor without microlenses (P45) and a sensor with microlenses (P21+) on a tech camera... so I do have some experience with both types of sensors (limited though as I actually only use 2 lenses). This is why I think your generalized statement above doesn't help anyone, quite the contrary.

Sorry Thomas,

I certainly don't mean to offer confusing information.

I think the general message on this thread is try before you buy.

If you are keen on a particular combo, then try it. Everybody has different levels of what is acceptable and what steps they prepared to take as compromises and work arounds etc.

We are putting together some more information on Large Format connectivity to help the customer decide better.

David

 

[fotografz]

To the OP:

You know what? I've thought about it more and you are right. You have every reason and right to be frustrated and angry ... and I retract most of what I've said here ... because to be honest it would have pissed me off too.

We're all just photographers trying to do the best we can. Dealing with this gear stuff has become a past time that has grown expodentially as everything has become more complex and specialized, and product cycles have grown shorter and shorter ... not to mention horrifying expensive.

It can all become bewildering and emotional.

Frankly, it is emotional energy better spent making photographs than engaging in brand or marketing wars that set one user against another. Let the makers slug it out ... I just want to make pictures and have carefully picked what I think will best help me do that ... which isn't necessarily what may be best for the next person.

If other users, reps, or companies want to put their spin on this-verses-that to bolster their decisions, offerings, or whatever ... let the competition answer them ... I'm done. My loyalty and energy is better focused on my work, clients and earning a living for my family.

Best of luck on your next steps, and good shooting to you! :thumbs:

-Marc

 

[BANKER1]

Marc,

You always seemed to be a stand up guy, and your apology raises you even higher in my eyes. If anyone who buys a medium format digital system and does not first realize the potential for huge depreciation they are in for a huge surprise. Changing brands is something I cannot even imagine given the line of lenses and accessories that come with that decision. Everything that has been expressed in this thread, including what you said, has been exactly right.

If the OP cannot accept honest criticism then he is not going to reap the rewards of that criticism (i.e. help). Sometimes it is difficult to look honestly at ourselves, but he should not dismiss it as an attack. Would I be upset or mad if I were in his situation? Yes, but I would blame myself for not working hard enough to research the product in the first place. And I will have to admit that I delved into MFDP on my experience with Hasselblad that had always been good. My CFV had a problem, but it was addressed and corrected by Hasselblad. After that it worked flawlessly.

This thread has been very civil. Let us all be as kind to one another as we can, but please be honest and open enough to be critical when it is required. And let us all be big enough to accept it as it is presented.

Greg

 

[Valentin]

I'm fairly new to MFD world and I can see where the OP is coming from. For many of you, since you've been at it for a while, all the facts seems like common knowledge. It isn't. Some of you said "you should have asked the question before you bought" ... well, sometimes you don't realize something until it happens to you so you don't know to ask about it. Why would he doubt what the brochure says that he can use the DB on a technical camera? Should a user go down the list of features and double check that indeed they are working as described?

Even in this thread, after he expressed his concern, David still gave a political correct answer: neither here or there. Sometimes trying every possible body and back combination is not a real world possibility.