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Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession
- Thread starter johnnygoesdigital
- Start date
johnnygoesdigital
New member
Bryan
I agree, the relationship with the dealer is tantamount to the MFD experience. With the knowledge gained from this and other forums, I decided to take another look at Hasselblads web site for info regarding the use of tech/view cameras. The following is an actual paste from Hasselblad: 1. ("H4d-40 has been designed to allow the digital capture unit to be detached and used on a view camera by way of an adapter.
2.View camera compatibility.Yes, Mechanical shutters controlled via flash sync.
3.Options for working with tilt/shift, two basic options are available for tilt/shift work with H4d-40. a simple-to-use, portable adapter solution and the classic view camera solution).
Hasselblad also forgets to mention that you need an external power source to use a view camera, which according to David Grover can only be used sometimes for "obvious reasons". WTF? I still can't find the kind of tech data on Hasselblad's web site, that's readily available on Phase One.
Conclusion: I made the mistake of not getting more technical info on these DB's., but I looked at the camera, (Hasselblad) as part of a system. I hedged my bet with Hasselblad in regards to my future use of tech/cameras. Perhaps, Hasselblad will include an asterisk on their site in regards to tech/view cameras, and the technical nature associated with them. The symbiotic relationship between a camera and a photographer cannot be understated.
I agree, the relationship with the dealer is tantamount to the MFD experience. With the knowledge gained from this and other forums, I decided to take another look at Hasselblads web site for info regarding the use of tech/view cameras. The following is an actual paste from Hasselblad: 1. ("H4d-40 has been designed to allow the digital capture unit to be detached and used on a view camera by way of an adapter.
2.View camera compatibility.Yes, Mechanical shutters controlled via flash sync.
3.Options for working with tilt/shift, two basic options are available for tilt/shift work with H4d-40. a simple-to-use, portable adapter solution and the classic view camera solution).
Hasselblad also forgets to mention that you need an external power source to use a view camera, which according to David Grover can only be used sometimes for "obvious reasons". WTF? I still can't find the kind of tech data on Hasselblad's web site, that's readily available on Phase One.
Conclusion: I made the mistake of not getting more technical info on these DB's., but I looked at the camera, (Hasselblad) as part of a system. I hedged my bet with Hasselblad in regards to my future use of tech/cameras. Perhaps, Hasselblad will include an asterisk on their site in regards to tech/view cameras, and the technical nature associated with them. The symbiotic relationship between a camera and a photographer cannot be understated.
Don Libby
Well-known member
The relationship between the photographer and his/her dealer is much like a marriage or partnership; it's built on trust. You need to find a good dealer where there is open dialog and give and take to really make you happy. The two must be in the relationship for the long haul.
Thankfully I found mine!
Don
Thankfully I found mine!
Don
johnnygoesdigital
New member
It should be noted that tech/view cameras do function correctly on other Hasselblad H models i'm told. It was the H4d/40 that it not recommended. Just make sure of the correct model.
johnnygoesdigital
New member
Lastly,
David, I didn't meant to intentionally put you on the spot, I apologize if my method is crude. As Guy and others have pointed out, we (me), need to do the homework! Also, check GetDPI often, check again, ask seemingly dumb questions. Go take photographs, check again with GetDPI and if that fails...throw pebbles at Marc's window!
David, I didn't meant to intentionally put you on the spot, I apologize if my method is crude. As Guy and others have pointed out, we (me), need to do the homework! Also, check GetDPI often, check again, ask seemingly dumb questions. Go take photographs, check again with GetDPI and if that fails...throw pebbles at Marc's window!
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
The Kodak 31.6 megapixel sensors are also "not ideal" for tech/view cameras. "not ideal" meaning not usable with wide angle lenses with movements (why else would one buy a tech camera??).
I've personally used the Phsae One P30+ on tech/view cameras and can tell you that while it's a great back for many types of photography it is not the back to buy if tech/view cameras are even a moderate possibility for your future.
The H4D-31 is built around the same sensor as the Phase One P30+.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Who's throwing rocks at my window? :ROTFL:
This discussion has flipped back and forth between a 31 and 40 meg sensor. Can't speak to a H4D/31, never used one ... can speak to a H4D/40 ...
Have done T/S work with the H4D/40. I use the Hasselblad HTS unit for most of it. Max shifts for panoramic landscapes, and tilts in studio for product work to increase DOF, or for portraits to control OOF areas ... with no additional post corrections other than those programed into Phocus (I posted panos in a thread about this including close ups of the corners and edges, and some are still in my GetDPI gallery).
When occasionally needing both front and rear standard movements ... which the HTS and tech cameras like an ALPA do not provide, I use the a Rollie Xact-II ... which requires shooting a white calibration image and use of Phocus software features when using my Schneider 28mm ... which admittedly I use infrequently. Most of this is done tethered in studio or on location. I have shot with T/S on location requiring use of the Image Bank-II to provide power, but it does facilitate rapid capture and redundant storage of up to 800 to 1000 images for back-up when shooting once in a lifetime images or non-repeatable events/set-ups. Not comparatively ideal for climbing down into some exotic location, but possible. So, other than the omission of the power source requirement, the literature on the H4D/40 is correct as far as I am concerned.
In addition, unlike 40 meg Dalsa sensor backs, the H4D/40 can do up to 4+ minute exposures and very clean ISO 1600 at full resolution, not MFD resolution from 10 years ago ... which I have also posted images of in a thread. Depends on what's important to you.
That said, if someone said they were very interested in a tech camera such as an ALPA and wide angle lenses for mobile field work, I would refer them to someone that owns and uses one, since I do not.
Personally, were I very interested in that as an exclusive camera platform, the only DB I would look to is Phase One. Hassey requires use of the Image Bank-II or separate power source plugged into the back for field work, and other solutions such as the Hassey CF backs and Leaf Aptus require a battery hanging off the DB, Phase doesn't. Personally, I wouldn't even consider anything other than the new IQ backs for this type of application since focusing tech or view cameras with movements is VERY difficult, and the new IQ backs have innovations that clearly aid in that chore.
However, I am NOT interested in a tech camera as an exclusive platform, preferring the fully integrated H4 system diversity and option of the HTS, waist level finder, 35-90D lens, all leaf shutter optics, True Focus/APL, etc. For anything close to that diversity with a Phase One back I would have to use a tech camera and a Phamiya 645 camera ... which is the last camera on earth I would personally choose no matter how many band-aids they put on it. Love the backs, hate the camera.
Again, depends on what is important to you because nothing is perfect for all uses in all degrees of applications ... something gets compromised somewhere. BTW, comparing a H4D/31 entry level system to a full blown Phase IQ kit on an ALPA or other exotic camera worthy of such a back, is a financial anomaly of titanic proportions
You get what you pay for.
-Marc
This discussion has flipped back and forth between a 31 and 40 meg sensor. Can't speak to a H4D/31, never used one ... can speak to a H4D/40 ...
Have done T/S work with the H4D/40. I use the Hasselblad HTS unit for most of it. Max shifts for panoramic landscapes, and tilts in studio for product work to increase DOF, or for portraits to control OOF areas ... with no additional post corrections other than those programed into Phocus (I posted panos in a thread about this including close ups of the corners and edges, and some are still in my GetDPI gallery).
When occasionally needing both front and rear standard movements ... which the HTS and tech cameras like an ALPA do not provide, I use the a Rollie Xact-II ... which requires shooting a white calibration image and use of Phocus software features when using my Schneider 28mm ... which admittedly I use infrequently. Most of this is done tethered in studio or on location. I have shot with T/S on location requiring use of the Image Bank-II to provide power, but it does facilitate rapid capture and redundant storage of up to 800 to 1000 images for back-up when shooting once in a lifetime images or non-repeatable events/set-ups. Not comparatively ideal for climbing down into some exotic location, but possible. So, other than the omission of the power source requirement, the literature on the H4D/40 is correct as far as I am concerned.
In addition, unlike 40 meg Dalsa sensor backs, the H4D/40 can do up to 4+ minute exposures and very clean ISO 1600 at full resolution, not MFD resolution from 10 years ago ... which I have also posted images of in a thread. Depends on what's important to you.
That said, if someone said they were very interested in a tech camera such as an ALPA and wide angle lenses for mobile field work, I would refer them to someone that owns and uses one, since I do not.
Personally, were I very interested in that as an exclusive camera platform, the only DB I would look to is Phase One. Hassey requires use of the Image Bank-II or separate power source plugged into the back for field work, and other solutions such as the Hassey CF backs and Leaf Aptus require a battery hanging off the DB, Phase doesn't. Personally, I wouldn't even consider anything other than the new IQ backs for this type of application since focusing tech or view cameras with movements is VERY difficult, and the new IQ backs have innovations that clearly aid in that chore.
However, I am NOT interested in a tech camera as an exclusive platform, preferring the fully integrated H4 system diversity and option of the HTS, waist level finder, 35-90D lens, all leaf shutter optics, True Focus/APL, etc. For anything close to that diversity with a Phase One back I would have to use a tech camera and a Phamiya 645 camera ... which is the last camera on earth I would personally choose no matter how many band-aids they put on it. Love the backs, hate the camera.
Again, depends on what is important to you because nothing is perfect for all uses in all degrees of applications ... something gets compromised somewhere. BTW, comparing a H4D/31 entry level system to a full blown Phase IQ kit on an ALPA or other exotic camera worthy of such a back, is a financial anomaly of titanic proportions
You get what you pay for.-Marc
Jan Brittenson
Senior Subscriber Member
Amen to that!
I think MFD is simply too complicated - it's not that I don't understand how it works or can't handle it, but it engages the wrong parts of my brain and distracts from my photography. It definitely promotes what I like to call "recipe shooting" - and each image looks just like the previous. Same angles, same composition, same light as all the previous shots made using the same "recipe". This is especially problematic in the domain of landscape where rearranging and experimenting with light means footwork. Literally. There's only so many hours in a day and so many days in a week.
I like my Leica M9 (and before that Mamiya 7) so much more, for all the things it is not. I can see an eagle in a tree and don't ask myself if I can get a shot of it. Because I can't. Instead I allow it to become part of the holistic impression used to inspire my own expression. At some other time I grab different gear and go "look for eagles," but each has its own mental zone. They're really wildly different activities. Of course, to a large extent it's about not have the whole SLR thing in front of me, but MFD definitely makes it worse. So what if the quality isn't as good - it's good enough for me. Last I heard, Mozart was still brilliant even if played on a boombox.
i disagree that MF shooting, even with it's complexity, has to be formulaic; just look at the film work of many masters, large format and medium format: Penn, Avedon, Brett and Edward, Ansel, Caponigro, Strand, etc. plenty of variety.
On the other hand, i do know what you mean: see the shot, set up the tripod, frame the shot, etc. is not so spontaneous. maybe that is what you meant.
there are plenty of excellent photographers who capture the moment, and probably all are shooting handheld with SLR or RF. Wasn't that the reason the leica was developed in the first place?
On the other hand, i do know what you mean: see the shot, set up the tripod, frame the shot, etc. is not so spontaneous. maybe that is what you meant.
there are plenty of excellent photographers who capture the moment, and probably all are shooting handheld with SLR or RF. Wasn't that the reason the leica was developed in the first place?
Jan Brittenson
Senior Subscriber Member
There's a zone when shooting people. But there's also a zone when shooting landscapes; it's very different. More holistic and less focused/exclusionary. It's a sort of meditative visual and contextual awareness. I find complex equipment interferes with it. I'm not saying IQ or real estate doesn't matter; I'm saying complex-to-operate equipment easily becomes a distraction. It's easy to lose the vision of the end result while twiddling with a camera where lenses don't even have usable DOF scales.
dougpeterson
Workshop Member
I'm not sure the analogy holds perfectly, but I hate listening to good jazz through poor speakers. It's worse than not listening to it at all. Don't get me wrong - I don't need a $20k set of speakers to enjoy the music, but I'm not going to listen to it on laptop speakers. And those rare occasions when I've been able to beg/borrow/steal a really nice set of speakers it has, in fact, enhanced my experience listening to the music.
Ugh - Arturo's trumpet on cheap tinny speakers. Can't stand it.
Re: fotografz - as you note the HTS largely avoids the issues of wide angles and movements by using a 1.5X piece of glass which keeps even the widest lens far enough away from the sensor to avoid severe angles of light. If the OP is ok with the advantages and limitations of the HTS then that could be a good work around for him. The widest lens would be 42mm (28mm X 1.5) with the ability to stitch back for a bit more wideness - somewhat limiting on a cropped sensor back, but he would gain TTL focus/composition and auto-corrections when using Phocus.
That really should have been pointed out earlier. However, I suppose everyone was focused on pancake/tech cameras where strongly micro-lensed sensors are much more limited.
By the way, regarding your tilt/swing experiences: If you're talking about the early generation 28mm Schneider with your studio work that lens, I'm sure you'd confirm, is mediocre at best. It is a very strong retro-focus design made originally to allow 35mm dSLRs to work on view cameras. Because of the strong retro-focus design I would imagine it allows some moderate movements even on strongly micro-lensed sensors. Also, longer lenses (e.g. Schneider 72XL) are far enough away from the sensor that it should allow even moderate movements without much issue.
The real test is lenses like the Rodenstock 23mm, or Schneiders XL series (24/35/43/47). In fact the Schneider 24 and 35 are so extreme (meaning non retro focus with very wide angles of view) that even Dalsa sensors which have historically provided the best view camera lens compatibility can be somewhat problematic.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
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dougpeterson
Workshop Member
Travel Camera (Cambo/Arca) - 35mm XL - hyperfocal at f/11.5 - ISO50 -Sunny 16 rule - Phase/Leaf digital back with integrated battery.
I cannot think of a less complicated camera system. No focusing, no need to fine tune exposure, no need to worry about DOF, don't have to review the images. Simple, relaxed, enjoyable, tactile photography. As a bonus it sports truly fantastic image quality.
Complexity in medium format is exactly as much as you wish it to be.
On the other end of the spectrum you could get an H20, laptop, and a quad-stitch sliding back Kapture Group adapter for an old school 4x5 view camera and attach a hand-held controller based electronic shutter. That takes a rocket scientist and a lot of experience to do right.
Re: usable DOF scales - all the DOF scales out there can be used for very accurate DOF calculations - you just have to do the legwork to find the conversion factor from film to your particular digital back (or buy from a dealer who does it for you).
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Alpa with P40+ and 24 XL centerfilter focused at 7 feet at F14. Easy peasy except I can't see what I am doing. Need new IQ . LOL
Just kidding it was not bad at all but I was laying down almost to see my LCD. New IQ will make this type of work a walk in the park. For a guy that does not use a Tech camera often , I did find this a joy to shoot on the workshop and almost every image with it is on the money. But this 24mm with a P40+ Dalsa is problematic as Doug mentioned.
Just kidding it was not bad at all but I was laying down almost to see my LCD. New IQ will make this type of work a walk in the park. For a guy that does not use a Tech camera often , I did find this a joy to shoot on the workshop and almost every image with it is on the money. But this 24mm with a P40+ Dalsa is problematic as Doug mentioned.
Terry
New member
I'm only shooting tech camera now and love the simplicity of the shooting. There is not a lot of simplicity in the decision making that is well covered in this thread. I'm going through that now in choosing lenses for a big uncropped back.
tom in mpls
Active member
What?? You can't mean that's your only camera now.
Terry
New member
Almost....Well I sold the DF body and Phase lenses. So my MF setup is only the tech camera.
That is supplemented by micro 4/3 for the time being. I put together a light but long lens kit for a safari this summer. Unfortunately, the GH2 bodies are on backorder so I have the lenses and no bodies. I've sold off just about everything else but a NEX 5.....and I will cop to having a Fuji X100 on pre-order
Ben Rubinstein
Active member
I've shot landscapes from a Canon AE-1 to a Mamiya 645 to several LF cameras to various DSLR's, I'm happy to take or leave the technology. If it's there then I'll use it should I choose, if it isn't then I know I can shoot just as well without. I don't let it's presence or lack of presence effect me as a photographer though.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Agree Ben. Just give me something to shoot and i will find my way.
Ugh....
oke:This (image) almost makes me want to pull the trigger, get an Alpa and an IQ and go for it.
BTW on the part of the H4 manual. It also only mentions the use on a view camera while tethered. It doesn't even mention non-tethered use on a view camera. If the OP is that anal about the manual this already should have been a waiving flag. If it is not in a manual I usually assume it doesn't work or get very cautious about it. Now I really think he has had a bad dealer (where is his dealer in all of this anyway?) next to changing his mind somewhere halfway. Would his dealer have advised him differently when he would have stated being interested in using a tech camera, like an Alpa, right from the start?
Anyway, apparently the situation is like it currently is. Complaining about it is not going to help you any further. As Marc I agree in principal we as photographers should not have to deal with this kind of **** however the reality is different unfortunately. I hope you can resolve this in a satisfactorial way with your dealer.
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GrahamWelland
Subscriber & Workshop Member
I TOTALLY understand the desire to do this. :thumbs:
I love the simplicity of the tech camera with a matched MFDB for landscape work. As an amateur it really hits the mark for me vs the automation and relative speed of a DSLR solution such as the DF.
I don't think that Chuck is far off the mark here though for the work required to become truly proficient with technical cameras though.