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Thread: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    I admit that I was a little naive when starting my MFD experience. For years I shot with a Canon 1dsMKII and an analog Hasselblad. I decided to go with Hasselblad when transitioning to MFD, mostly because of name familiarity and a good reputation. My fascination with fine art landscapes compelled me to seek better resolution and aspect ratio, and MFD seemed a perfect match. After buying my H3D/31/II, the value dropped almost $4000 in less than 500 shutter clicks. It was replaced with H4D, only to see the price drop again as another model was released (h4D31) within months. I could go on and on about my frustration with Hasselblad's pricing structure and the insulting trade up offers from a reputable dealer in NYC.- and let's not get started on the closed system...But I also fell for marketing because I didn't realize how obsessed I would become with technical cameras (6x9) and the digital integration. But I thought it's okay, Hasselblad's brochure says you can mount a technical DB on a view camera! For my model H4D, there's a cute diagram of a DB and view camera that appear to be easy to integrate, heck they don't even show you the battery bank you'll need to power it...oops! Any DB that has micro-lenses is not recommended for technical use because certain obtuse lighting conditions can cause considerable color shifts. Why doesn't Hasselblad mention this? I'm not saying it's a bad product, just misleading.

    Any advice on Phase One or Leaf's DB's would be appreciated as I'm selling my H gear for a 645DF. I like the idea of using a 645DF for most of my needs and then taking the DB off to go hike with an Alpha or say a Linhof or perhaps an Arca Swiss...to quench my obsession...for the moment.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Color shifts yes but did you try how good you can correct those in post.
    I only have Sinar experience and my back didnt have microlenses but still produces color shifts - however in the Sinar software you could correct those easily with white shading.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    I admit that I was a little naive when starting my MFD experience. For years I shot with a Canon 1dsMKII and an analog Hasselblad. I decided to go with Hasselblad when transitioning to MFD, mostly because of name familiarity and a good reputation. My fascination with fine art landscapes compelled me to seek better resolution and aspect ratio, and MFD seemed a perfect match. After buying my H3D/31/II, the value dropped almost $4000 in less than 500 shutter clicks. It was replaced with H4D, only to see the price drop again as another model was released (h4D31) within months. I could go on and on about my frustration with Hasselblad's pricing structure and the insulting trade up offers from a reputable dealer in NYC.- and let's not get started on the closed system...But I also fell for marketing because I didn't realize how obsessed I would become with technical cameras (6x9) and the digital integration. But I thought it's okay, Hasselblad's brochure says you can mount a technical DB on a view camera! For my model H4D, there's a cute diagram of a DB and view camera that appear to be easy to integrate, heck they don't even show you the battery bank you'll need to power it...oops! Any DB that has micro-lenses is not recommended for technical use because certain obtuse lighting conditions can cause considerable color shifts. Why doesn't Hasselblad mention this? I'm not saying it's a bad product, just misleading.

    Any advice on Phase One or Leaf's DB's would be appreciated as I'm selling my H gear for a 645DF. I like the idea of using a 645DF for most of my needs and then taking the DB off to go hike with an Alpha or say a Linhof or perhaps an Arca Swiss...to quench my obsession...for the moment.
    All new DB prices drop alarmingly, once a newer generation is announced, so if you think that Phase DB will retain its price better, please look up used DB prices on the net. From ROI point of view, I would always go for used DB.

    In case you will use only Technical cameras, then Phase/Leaf are better proposition, else you can always use the Hasselblad DB on Technical camera, and retain all you lenses (which ultimately are a large investment).

    Yes the DB with microlenses are not recommended with Technical cameras, but only if you use movements. In case you need long exposures, there is only one choice - P45+, as all current DB, whether Dalsa or Kodak have limits of 1-4 minutes. More info on Phase Backs http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/new-backs/

    In case you still have your analog Hasselblad and lenses, you can try the CFV range of backs which come upto 50MP.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    A little naive?

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Johnny,

    Any colour cast you may see can easily be corrected by Phocus.

    I am sure when you bought your H3D, if you had been keen on technical cameras then, these things would have come up in discussion.

    By your own admission you say you didn't realise that you would become interested in these kinds of cameras until later, so once again, maybe your dealer assumed you would not be interested?

    The H3D31 will certainly go on your Alpha or Linhof, and to be honest, the cast issue may never come up.

    David

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Any advice on Phase One or Leaf's DB's would be appreciated as I'm selling my H gear for a 645DF. I like the idea of using a 645DF for most of my needs and then taking the DB off to go hike with an Alpha or say a Linhof or perhaps an Arca Swiss...to quench my obsession...for the moment.
    I can only speak for Leaf. Our backs (all of them) work very well on view camera with a few unique features:

    * Simple connectivity via a single pc sync cable
    * External clip-on battery: allows for use of large cells and helps preventing heat build-up (there's also a DC-FW adapter that can be used with e.g. Quantum batteries)
    * Rotating sensor in 10R and 12R models; sensor stays clean and safe, cables and menus all stay in one place
    * AFi models also offer a tilt screen, very handy when shooting low and saves some neck ache when chimping
    * Cooling fan helps when shooting fast or when shooting consecutive long exposures
    * Grid tool (adjustable) for aligning verticals and horizontals
    * Spot meter tool for accurate exposure
    * Possibility to enter notes, copyrights and focal length into the metadata
    * Flexible workflow: Leaf Capture, Capture One (both with good LCC tools)

    Best of luck!

    yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    ANY DB with micro lenses can induce color shifts on a tech camera, and ANY proprietary software techniques can adjust for it ... it is not an exclusive Hasselblad trait ... neither are stiff penalties for changing your mind after only 500 shots.

    Perhaps back up, slow down, and become more educated before dropping another boatload of cash on the next obsession?

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Johnny

    the devil is in the details when it comes to shooting on a tech camera...

    as indicated above every manufacturer has a software solution for caste issues which are directly related to both the focal length of your lens and the type of back you are using - one is about how light is actually 'falling' into those tiny little pixel pots (through the lens) and the other is about how the actual tiny little pixel pots are manufactured ( the nature of the buckets that catch the light )

    there are advantages and disadvantages to different bucket designs ( pixel types if you like)

    The second bit to clued up on is the fact that fitting the back ( film) to teh tech camera has its own issues depending on tech camera and back and adaptor - which may vary from each example of each component..

    you need to make sure that the bits 'fit' well..

    internet forums aren't the best place to find out about this stuff again - as indicated above go to a dealer who knows what they are talking abut - good luck with that..

    or find a person who knows what they are doing and get them to show you what and how and why they do it the way they do..


    the good news is that you don't need to fret too much - a bit of patience and learning how to use what you have will go a long way..

    the bad news?

    spending a lot of cashola will not guarantee you a good result - and the definition or benchmark of good - keeps getting higher and higher as you climb the curve and get some experience.

    Each manufacturer has their strengths and weaknesses relative to each other - unless you are as pedantic as me - you wont bother buying and using and testing a back from each manufacturer over a few years to figure out what needs to be figured out - for you

    the problem with the H sees backs is that they are designed to be powered by the H series camera..I use an imagebank to provide the power but there are good alternative power solutions..

    every manufacturer HAS to have a spin on why their design is better than the other guys...

    the best thing to do is find a knowledgeable dealer - good luck with that...
    and test the stuff with their help..

    every back you ever buy will halve in value as soon as you have bought it..just a fact of life and then halve again 12 months later..

    Hasselblad isn't the best at looking after their clients investment - that is for sure.but the difference between the best and the worst isn't too big either.

    Final note

    you an buy a brand new tiny megapixel camera(33) like a Sinar 75 for 1/3rd the price of 2 years ago...or a nice used Leaf Aptus for same or a nice Phase One for same..and they all make great shots and they all have heir issues.

    Pete

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Theme if MF do your homework. Howany times is this drilled into our conversations. Need to read these threads of the constant details that we talk about. Sorry Peter but this forum drills this home everyday. Along with a dealers help mistakes should not happen. IMHO
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    color shift is practically a non issue as the MFD softwares provide excellent tools to correct color shift.
    so the issue with microlensed sensors is not color shift - it's vignetting in conjunction with movements.
    on a microlensed sensor the edges don't go just dark... they go black. incorrectable.
    maybe not an issue with longer lenses, but definitely with wide angles.

    Phase One generally do not recommend to use a microlensed sensor on tech cameras (except of the P21+ due to it's large pixel pitch... but even with the P21+ they do not recommend to use very wide angle lenses).
    Therefore the use of a P30+ or H3D31 on a tech camera will be very, very limited; especially with regard to landscapes. So I'm a bit surprised about David's comment.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    It is an important duty of the dealer to explain the advantages and disadvantages of each digital back when someone is looking to buy.

    Take for instance our Phase One P+ Digital Backs page where we clearly explain the P30+ and P21+ are not recommended for tech/view camera use especially with movements (tilts/shifts).

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Before buying any lenses you also want to make sure they are well suited to the sensor you are using. There are lenses that are fine on some of the crop sensors that don't perform well on the big sensors. So, make sure you discuss with a dealer and do your reading on the subject.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Johnny,

    Any colour cast you may see can easily be corrected by Phocus.

    [...]

    The H3D31 will certainly go on your Alpha or Linhof, and to be honest, the cast issue may never come up.
    David, can you please double check what you wrote to make sure there isn't a typo or other slip?

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    I could go on and on about my frustration with Hasselblad's pricing structure and the insulting trade up offers from a reputable dealer in NYC.- and let's not get started on the closed system...But I also fell for marketing because I didn't realize how obsessed I would become with technical cameras (6x9) and the digital integration.
    Sorry that you have had this happen to you with your switch to MFD.

    Sometimes the resellers hands are tied by the manufacturer because the trade up programs are run by them and does not allow for much pricing flexibility.

    If you are in the NY area I can work on showing you how the Leaf and Phase One solutions work on a technical camera. We have a few different tech cams and the full line of backs at our demo facility.

    This would be a very good way for you to be able to compare the solutions side by side and get an overview of Capture One at the same time.

    Lance
    LANCE SCHAD - Digital Transitions - Phase One,Mamiya | Leaf,Arca-Swiss,Cambo, Profoto
    direct/cell:610-496-5586 office:877-367-8537x224
    http://www.digitaltransitions.com email:[email protected]

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    David, can you please double check what you wrote to make sure there isn't a typo or other slip?
    Thanks for keeping an eye out for me Dug.

    I have checked and I am happy.

    If somebody was going to exclusively use one of our products on a tech camera then I would urge them away from the micro lensed type for obvious reasons.

    If it is occasional use, then based on experience, I would not tell them it was impossible or that they couldn't handle any potential cast issues.

    Keep up the good work.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    I think my journey into using a technical camera is well documented here and on my blog but allow me to add a couple thoughts...

    I used to shoot landscape images with a 1DsII before wanting to go to the next step - medium format. That step took me to a Mamiya AFDII and a P30+ which I used and was very pleased with until I got the bug for something better (among other items on my wish list was the ability to flat stitch and better lenses resolution). The bug lead me to a tech camera and a Cambo WRS. I wanted to keep the P30+ as I was still very pleased with it however my dealer educated me in the downfall of a back using micro-lenses. After further reviewing Phase's website I found there that they didn't and still don't recommend this particular back with a tech camera. I ended up trading the P30+ for a P45+ and have been using that ever since.

    There's issues that one should be aware of when using a tech camera - mainly some color ****s that are easily corrected by shooting an LCC and using C1 Pro to correct the image.

    I bought the WRS and P45+ in November 2008 and sold all Phase 645 and every Mamiya lens within 6 months. I shot this setup exclusively until last year when I add a Leica M9 as a companion camera.

    I had no thoughts at all of going to a tech camera when I first moved to MF otherwise I would have thought long and hard about the P30+.

    Painful experience and leads credence to the subtitle of this forum ... "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here".

    Best of luck!

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    David,
    I was keen on technical cameras then, and was assured that these H4 DB's would be perfect for those applications. What I "said" was that I didn't realize how obsessed I would become as it relates to the digital integration. You also say that for "obvious reasons" one would not use an H4D DB on a tech camera. What's so obvious in the Hasselblad literature that suggests it can't be used in certain applications? Your contradiction that it can be used on Linhof, or Alpa, but not for obvious reasons, is confusing at best.

    As an artist, it's my desire to control every aspect of an image, utilizing camera movements to control perspective, DOF, etc. Years ago, I won an Emmy Award, and that experience with motion pictures has stayed with me in photography, the more control one has with the equipment, the better to effect a desired result, so without going into the scientific nature of microns and pixels and there relationship to lateral outflow and quantum efficiency, I trusted the sales pitch...my bad!

    Marc, after your extensive posts with the S2, I thought you would understand best. I only posted about the deceptive nature about Hasselblad's literature, and how it relates to my view camera desires. I didn't just return my H3D on a whim. I returned it because the first day I used it, it broke! The price drop of several thousand dollars was during my experience with the 2nd H3D, in just a month. You even commented on the frustrating nature of Hasselblad price structure then.

    Messages indicating no lens attached, constant required re-starts, faulty shutter settings and indications, and that was just my first one... My second H4D came with much anticipation, but the viewfinder would not function, so off to Hasselblad again...new viewfinder, but no true focus, it seems they forgot to update the firmware...there bad. Now finally, I'll get to use my much ballyhooed H4D, after a few shutter clicks, a strange sound and mirror locked up! After a 5 hour drive to Hasselblad it seems a piece of solder had come apart and jammed the mechanism. Now while bracketing, if it only requires a few re-starts, I consider that a good day because the camera always has to be re-booted, firmware updates and all! Is this a trust issue based on 4 different faulty Hasselblad cameras in less than a year? You tell me. I don't want to just buy an S2 with several lenses and H4D/60's to compliment my Leica M9. I want a camera system to function as advertised and for the "obvious" reasons!

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    I have just spent a couple of days comparing the P65+/C1 with my H3D50/Phocus. About 95% of my shooting is on tech or view cameras. My comments relate entirely to my own use, and do not imply any quality judgements. I have the greatest respect for both platforms, and for both companies. Flame not.

    I found that specific features of the P65 work better on my tech cameras, but the back has some really serious "gotchas". For example, C1's handling of my Rollei shutters is primitive. Changing the battery requires removing the back if you are on an AS monolith. Battery life with live view is short so that removal process happens a lot. A couple of days trial will reveal what matters to you and what doesn't.

    Closed vs open" system is irrelevant to me. I prefer the "feel" of the Blad hardware and I love the HCD35-90. In terms of image quality, I found the Blad 50 multishot to be really impressive, so much so that 80MP is not of great interest. Mind, I have never actually tried the 80MP so that is not an informed opinion.

    I will move to the IQ back. The worst issues are supposed to be addressed there (e..g. battery recharges from USB3!) and, if the promises are kept, the advantages are compelling to me. If I were shooting more with the integrated camera or if return on investment were a key issue, I don't think I would move.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Changing the battery requires removing the back if you are on an AS monolith. Battery life with live view is short so that removal process happens a lot.
    If you're using live view in the studio just run your FW cable through a powered firewire hub and run the back off FW power. We've got a FW400 hub and a FW800 hub that we've tested specifically with our Phase backs for this purpose. You'll never change another battery :-).

    Running off battery power is only needed if the computer you're connected to a laptop or iMac where the FW power is just not consistent and strong enough to power the back.

    Actually, it sounds like the best solution (without knowing all the details granted) might be an Aptus II 12. This would allow more elegant control of the Rollei shutter from Leaf Capture software, and give you all the file quality of an IQ180 but at a lower price. Granted in the field the LCD and feature set of the IQ would be a big advantage but in the studio you might like the Aptus II 12 best.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    I understand that color shifts are a relatively easy software fix, but the movements are the key element for me. Image circles using 70mm don't allow much movement with a technical camera and depending on focal length, larger incident "light" angles can be produced with wider lenses at the image plane.

    Also, the crop factor of the sensor on the H4D/40, adds to the very limited movements on some technical cameras and wide lenses. Try finding that in Hasselblad's literature!

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Euh... I don't really get you. I think it is foolish to waive all responsibility and place it at someone else. I know it is apparently a sign of this time but at this level YOU should take your own responsibility. Do your own due diligence and do it thoroughly.

    The issue with movements and micro-lenses has come up more than once over the years in all sorts of places. Even if it is not mentioned in 'official literature' it is something that many people will tell you as soon as you ask on any of the places where people hang out that use this stuff.

    YOU should know that a smaller recording area has limitations over a larger one in areas including wide-angles. This is simple photography theory. You cannot make someone else responsible over a lack of your own knowledge in areas.

    I feel for you but from the sound of it you have had both bad experiences and a change of heart over time. Welcome to the club, we all had these. True, there are bad dealers and not everything is in the available literature but most stuff going haywire is operator error so to speak. Or progressive insights leading to a different craving of materials. Move on and enjoy the stuff you have learned the hard way.

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    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    I decided to go with Hasselblad when transitioning to MFD, mostly because of name familiarity and a good reputation.
    You spent a small fortune based on name familiarity and reputation?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    After buying my H3D/31/II, the value dropped almost $4000 in less than 500 shutter clicks. It was replaced with H4D, only to see the price drop again as another model was released (h4D31) within months.
    And how exactly did this affect your images?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    I could go on and on about my frustration with Hasselblad's pricing structure and the insulting trade up offers from a reputable dealer in NYC.- and let's not get started on the closed system...But I also fell for marketing because I didn't realize how obsessed I would become with technical cameras (6x9) and the digital integration. But I thought it's okay, Hasselblad's brochure says you can mount a technical DB on a view camera! For my model H4D, there's a cute diagram of a DB and view camera that appear to be easy to integrate, heck they don't even show you the battery bank you'll need to power it...oops! Any DB that has micro-lenses is not recommended for technical use because certain obtuse lighting conditions can cause considerable color shifts. Why doesn't Hasselblad mention this? I'm not saying it's a bad product, just misleading.
    You spent a small fortune - twice - and didn't think to do your own research?

    Sorry if my reply seems harsh but I have difficulty sympathising with folk changing their systems - and minds - more often than their underpants and then blaming everyone but themselves when it goes tits up.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Guy - For new people - actually getting the information from a thread search isn't really easy - a lot of information is in lots of threads spread out around over time - and often not even related to the original thread starter - just a fact of life. For regular people who hav ebeen with the forum over a number of years the information and shared expereinces is sitting in our heads ...but if a person hasnt gone through the journey it isnt.

    I am happy to be able to draw on the wealth of knowledge offered by people like Doug, David, Yair, David from Dale and others who ocassionally post - but these peopel aren't representative of the typical dealer out there - hence my statement- find someone who knows whatyou want to do and shows you how to do it - perhaps one your course may be a good plan!

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    I trusted the sales pitch...my bad!

    Marc, after your extensive posts with the S2, I thought you would understand best. I only posted about the deceptive nature about Hasselblad's literature, and how it relates to my view camera desires. I don't want to just buy an S2 with several lenses and H4D/60's to compliment my Leica M9. I want a camera system to function as advertised and for the "obvious" reasons!
    Actually, I DO understand. My comment only suggested it prudent to slow down and educate yourself before spending yet more money.

    My saga with the S2, which I documented here, is an example of doing exactly that ... NOT buying into marketing spin or words like "perfection" etc.... and that caution extends to ALL these makers and sellers of every brand and their particular style of marketing spin ... it's YOUR money, not theirs!

    So, after testing the S2 a year prior and rejecting it as not ready, I dogged every report and image posted, read every review, asked questions, until finally trying it again ... as in testing it. I NEVER paid for the camera until it was as promised, and felt that issues would be addressed by Leica service quickly and without angst ... which they did.

    Guy, Jack, myself and most anyone with experience will tell you that it is essential to do a hands on even if you have to rent it. And even more essential is the selection of dealer, how they fit you personally, and how well they can handle issues which can manifest themselves with any of these complex systems.

    As to value ... let me share this with you as further example ... I paid a bloody fortune for an Aptus 75s which at the time I was using on a Mamiya 645-III, an awful camera that ate batteries, required two separate start ups, and I could never get the Metz TTL to work properly, with AF that couldn't find its own a$$ with both hands if not shot at high noon ... not long afterwards Leaf announced the AFi, promising excellent AF, Schneider and Zeiss optics, ... which I immediately demoed ... basically sporting the SAME DB as my 75s ... not only could I NOT use my Leaf back on the Leaf AFi ... period, end of conversation, the regional rep demoing the AFi wasn't interested in allowing me to trade in the almost new 75s toward it ... suggesting I sell my kit ... equating to a ferocious loss in a few brief months.

    Buyer Beware.

    -Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post



    YOU should know that a smaller recording area has limitations over a larger one in areas including wide-angles. This is simple photography theory. You cannot make someone else responsible over a lack of your own knowledge in areas.
    I was with your whole post except for this part. A smaller sensor allows for more lenses to be used rather than fewer (smaller sensor doesn't always equal micro lenses). On the wide angle lenses such as the Schneider 24mm it works out OK on a P40+ but is dreadful on a P65+. The smaller crop sensors crop out the worst areas at the edges where the angle of light hitting the sensor is at the worst angle causing the worst color shifts and banding that is hard to correct.



    .

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Yes, you are right. I should have phrased it like. 'You should have been aware what the consequences are of getting a smaller recording area or at least get informed'.

    What might be disadvantages in one area can be advantages in another.

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    KeithL,
    Try reading my comment. I was happy with Hasselblad as it pertains to my analog use, so I assumed, based on their reputation and my familiarity with there products, that the transition would be a good one. If something works, I usually stick with a product...it's called loyalty. I didn't spend 2 small fortunes on Hasselblad products, I was only commenting on their pricing structure and frustrating kit offers and the horrible re-sale value of each product. Just look at Fotografz price on his recently sold H4D...yikes! Everyone knows of the nature of planned obsolescence in the digital world, but when a dealer offers an $ 8000.00 lens as part of a kit that you just paid the same amount for days earlier with a much lesser lens kit, then do the math! I paid for one camera only, but it took 4 models due to constant technical malfunctions to get it right.
    My original comment was about the fact that Hasselblad is deceptive in their advertising on the use of technical cameras which is where my love of photography has naturally taken me. Phase at least states which DB's they recommend. My images were not affected at all, but that's not the point.

    Dustbak, funny that's my Hasselblads nickname. I only started reading these forums after getting into MFD, because i'm usually out taking photographs! And yes, it should be mentioned in a products literature...your kidding right? Also, thanks for the lesson on theory, but I already commented on that. In addition, the only change I sought was to make my photography more important to me and thus, go technical. So yes, to a degree i'm at fault for not researching the reams of data on on the quantum nature of sensors and the relationship with technical cameras, but I'm a trusting person, so when my very experienced dealer and Hasselblad's own tech data says these will work on a view camera... so it should!
    As one progresses in their endeavors the learning curve tends to follow them, but this particular forum has turned into something all together different then what I expected. Shouldn't we share experiences and encourage ideas that are exchanged instead of pointing fingers and making disparaging comments on one's lack of experience. The word forum means, a place to exchange ideas and views.

  28. #28
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Meant to say the cropped sensor actually aids with wider lenses

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Most people here are willing to share and help out and I like to think I am as well.

    From your remarks to me it seems you are somewhat sour, which is really understandable BTW, however the only thing I was trying to point out is that I believe you should not blame everyone but yourself. As a reaction to your pointing of fingers to everyone besides yourself.

    Thank you for reminding someone with a classical education about the meaning of 'forum'. It has indeed been a long time ago. I think I have given you my view on this...

  30. #30
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Dustbak,

    Sour...you think? I'm not blaming everyone else for my Hasselblad fiasco, I'm blaming my dealer, who by the way, represents Hasselblad! After several faulty cameras that wouldn't function in almost as many months , I do in fact, blame myself after spending that kind of money for a product whose QC was/is at question! Please understand that Hasselblad was fantastic at replacing all the cameras. The solder issue that jammed the mirror apparently has happened before, according to a tech I spoke with. You would be sour too, if you had to climb deep into a canyon to compose a perfect shot, with limited lighting, only to have to re-set that friggin battery again! For that amount of money these remedial fixes should not happen, but they do, almost every time I shoot with this camera! In regards to the original frustration of view camera use, perhaps someone will find somewhere on Hasselblads website or literature that advocates the use of non mirrored DB's...just curious. Let me be clear that prior to my purchase, I had no technical camera experience at all...I know, it shows, but that's why I started to read forums with classically trained photographers such as yourself.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    KeithL,
    Try reading my comment. I was happy with Hasselblad as it pertains to my analog use, so I assumed, based on their reputation and my familiarity with there products, that the transition would be a good one. If something works, I usually stick with a product...it's called loyalty. I didn't spend 2 small fortunes on Hasselblad products, I was only commenting on their pricing structure and frustrating kit offers and the horrible re-sale value of each product. Just look at Fotografz price on his recently sold H4D...yikes! Everyone knows of the nature of planned obsolescence in the digital world, but when a dealer offers an $ 8000.00 lens as part of a kit that you just paid the same amount for days earlier with a much lesser lens kit, then do the math! I paid for one camera only, but it took 4 models due to constant technical malfunctions to get it right.
    My original comment was about the fact that Hasselblad is deceptive in their advertising on the use of technical cameras which is where my love of photography has naturally taken me. Phase at least states which DB's they recommend. My images were not affected at all, but that's not the point.

    Dustbak, funny that's my Hasselblads nickname. I only started reading these forums after getting into MFD, because i'm usually out taking photographs! And yes, it should be mentioned in a products literature...your kidding right? Also, thanks for the lesson on theory, but I already commented on that. In addition, the only change I sought was to make my photography more important to me and thus, go technical. So yes, to a degree i'm at fault for not researching the reams of data on on the quantum nature of sensors and the relationship with technical cameras, but I'm a trusting person, so when my very experienced dealer and Hasselblad's own tech data says these will work on a view camera... so it should!
    As one progresses in their endeavors the learning curve tends to follow them, but this particular forum has turned into something all together different then what I expected. Shouldn't we share experiences and encourage ideas that are exchanged instead of pointing fingers and making disparaging comments on one's lack of experience. The word forum means, a place to exchange ideas and views.
    RE: My recently sold H4D/40 ... you have zero idea what I paid for it ... I did okay because I'm a savvy shopper ... more importantly, what I made WITH it is where the value was. Great camera, zero issues, worked every time. Sorry yours didn't.

    Now what's the point of repeating yourself over and over and over and over and over ... while devaluing the very camera you just said you are going to sell? Will you put a link to this thread in your F/S ad to be up front with the full disclosure that's so important to you?

    Good luck with that

    -Marc

  32. #32
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Marc,

    I did in fact, get offered $1800.00 more than your updated price for an S2. So, for me, it's like getting free use of a camera for the year. And I was only repeating certain aspects to reply to a comment, but thanks for not taking sides.

    Your cute funny smiley faces really do put an emphasis on the points you made!

    Alas, this forum may not be for me...I post comments and instead of practical useful knowledge to disseminate, I have to defend my comments...all the time. Although, gentleman like PeterA and others don't judge me on my lack of MFD experience, they encourage and inspire (pic of woman with Leica...thanks Peter) and great photographers like Don Libby who also share similar experiences, and of course Bryan Siebel...dude you rock! There's more of course, and I do appreciate all i've learned. Most of you are amazing professionals and the generous nature of photographers to share their recipes is an outstanding quality! This is how we learn...

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Marc,

    I did in fact, get offered $1800.00 more than your updated price for an S2. So, for me, it's like getting free use of a camera for the year. And I was only repeating certain aspects to reply to a comment, but thanks for not taking sides.

    Your cute funny smiley faces really do put an emphasis on the points you made!

    Alas, this forum may not be for me...I post comments and instead of practical useful knowledge to disseminate, I have to defend my comments...all the time. Although, gentleman like PeterA and others don't judge me on my lack of MFD experience, they encourage and inspire (pic of woman with Leica...thanks Peter) and great photographers like Don Libby who also share similar experiences, and of course Bryan Siebel...dude you rock! There's more of course, and I do appreciate all i've learned. Most of you are amazing professionals and the generous nature of photographers to share their recipes is an outstanding quality! This is how we learn...
    No one is taking sides ... people offer up their opinion and if you don't like that opinion you keep stating the same thing over and over, we got it the first time, and offered an opinion ... that's all it is, an opinion. Then if you don't like that opinion you deem it not being useful ... when in fact it is, but you just don't want to hear it. So then those who you don't agree with you by thinly veiled implication aren't gentlemen, or great photographers, or don't "rock dude."

    Next time you post, just add the caveat that you do not want to hear anything from anyone that doesn't agree with you. It'll keep things simple.

    -Marc

    BTW, where can I get that S2 for $13,600. ... because I'll take it !!!!

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Johnny,

    Tech camera + White shading a must especially with wide lenses and movements. I have used both Phase and Sinar DBs and the LCC post prod software works VERY VERY well!

    Enjoy...

  35. #35
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    I admit that I was a little naive when starting my MFD experience. For years I shot with a Canon 1dsMKII and an analog Hasselblad. I decided to go with Hasselblad when transitioning to MFD, mostly because of name familiarity and a good reputation. My fascination with fine art landscapes compelled me to seek better resolution and aspect ratio, and MFD seemed a perfect match. After buying my H3D/31/II, the value dropped almost $4000 in less than 500 shutter clicks. It was replaced with H4D, only to see the price drop again as another model was released (h4D31) within months. I could go on and on about my frustration with Hasselblad's pricing structure and the insulting trade up offers from a reputable dealer in NYC.- and let's not get started on the closed system...But I also fell for marketing because I didn't realize how obsessed I would become with technical cameras (6x9) and the digital integration. But I thought it's okay, Hasselblad's brochure says you can mount a technical DB on a view camera! For my model H4D, there's a cute diagram of a DB and view camera that appear to be easy to integrate, heck they don't even show you the battery bank you'll need to power it...oops! Any DB that has micro-lenses is not recommended for technical use because certain obtuse lighting conditions can cause considerable color shifts. Why doesn't Hasselblad mention this? I'm not saying it's a bad product, just misleading.

    Any advice on Phase One or Leaf's DB's would be appreciated as I'm selling my H gear for a 645DF. I like the idea of using a 645DF for most of my needs and then taking the DB off to go hike with an Alpha or say a Linhof or perhaps an Arca Swiss...to quench my obsession...for the moment.
    The problem here is you may have jumped off the diving board before putting your toe in the water. This happens a lot and people don't realize if they may have had a mistake or not. **** happens and forums are a good place to ASK these questions and also check with a reputable dealer and figure out EXACTLY what you are buying. This is my homework clause that comes with MF and it gets repeated here all the time. Marketing is marketing and not everything is brought up in brochures and advertising pieces. Otherwise you may see more disclaimers than real content. So being naive as you said going into MF can be a deadly experience and that just proves getting all the facts up front which being excited going in always seems to fall on the back burner of the excitement scale. Totally understandable.
    This is where a good dealer will go over all the REAL facts and forums like
    this get you a good start in asking the questions what to expect. As someone said the proof is in the details. Lesson learned now you need to figure out what to do next instead of being frustrated you did not get what you needed. I think moving forward and getting you on the right path is the best solution now. How to make a exchange, trade or return is something you should be thinking about. Your looking for a bail out so need to figure out the best solution. Hope that helps
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    If somebody was going to exclusively use one of our products on a tech camera then I would urge them away from the micro lensed type for obvious reasons.

    If it is occasional use, then based on experience, I would not tell them it was impossible or that they couldn't handle any potential cast issues.
    info without liability ... sorry.
    "Occasional use" doesn't mean that the respective application is unimportant ...even if you use the DB on a tech camera only once a year you still want that one picture in high quality... don't you think so? Anyway...

    My question is: based on what experience exactly? Which LF lenses work with a H/31? How much movements can you apply with the respective lenses?
    Is the H/31 better suited to use on a tech camera than the H/40... due to the larger pixel pitch of the H/31? Or is the H/40 better suited than the H/31... maybe due to a different design of the microlenses on that new sensor despite of the smaller pixel pitch?
    These issues pop up from time to time... but nobody ever adressed the questions in detail.

    I use a sensor without microlenses (P45) and a sensor with microlenses (P21+) on a tech camera... so I do have some experience with both types of sensors (limited though as I actually only use 2 lenses). This is why I think your generalized statement above doesn't help anyone, quite the contrary.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    info without liability ... sorry.
    "Occasional use" doesn't mean that the respective application is unimportant ...even if you use the DB on a tech camera only once a year you still want that one picture in high quality... don't you think so? Anyway...

    My question is: based on what experience exactly? Which LF lenses work with a H/31? How much movements can you apply with the respective lenses?
    Is the H/31 better suited to use on a tech camera than the H/40... due to the larger pixel pitch of the H/31? Or is the H/40 better suited than the H/31... maybe due to a different design of the microlenses on that new sensor despite of the smaller pixel pitch?
    These issues pop up from time to time... but nobody ever adressed the questions in detail.

    I use a sensor without microlenses (P45) and a sensor with microlenses (P21+) on a tech camera... so I do have some experience with both types of sensors (limited though as I actually only use 2 lenses). This is why I think your generalized statement above doesn't help anyone, quite the contrary.
    Sorry Thomas,

    I certainly don't mean to offer confusing information.

    I think the general message on this thread is try before you buy.

    If you are keen on a particular combo, then try it. Everybody has different levels of what is acceptable and what steps they prepared to take as compromises and work arounds etc.

    We are putting together some more information on Large Format connectivity to help the customer decide better.

    David

  38. #38
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    To the OP:

    You know what? I've thought about it more and you are right. You have every reason and right to be frustrated and angry ... and I retract most of what I've said here ... because to be honest it would have pissed me off too.

    We're all just photographers trying to do the best we can. Dealing with this gear stuff has become a past time that has grown expodentially as everything has become more complex and specialized, and product cycles have grown shorter and shorter ... not to mention horrifying expensive.

    It can all become bewildering and emotional.

    Frankly, it is emotional energy better spent making photographs than engaging in brand or marketing wars that set one user against another. Let the makers slug it out ... I just want to make pictures and have carefully picked what I think will best help me do that ... which isn't necessarily what may be best for the next person.

    If other users, reps, or companies want to put their spin on this-verses-that to bolster their decisions, offerings, or whatever ... let the competition answer them ... I'm done. My loyalty and energy is better focused on my work, clients and earning a living for my family.

    Best of luck on your next steps, and good shooting to you!

    -Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Marc,

    You always seemed to be a stand up guy, and your apology raises you even higher in my eyes. If anyone who buys a medium format digital system and does not first realize the potential for huge depreciation they are in for a huge surprise. Changing brands is something I cannot even imagine given the line of lenses and accessories that come with that decision. Everything that has been expressed in this thread, including what you said, has been exactly right.

    If the OP cannot accept honest criticism then he is not going to reap the rewards of that criticism (i.e. help). Sometimes it is difficult to look honestly at ourselves, but he should not dismiss it as an attack. Would I be upset or mad if I were in his situation? Yes, but I would blame myself for not working hard enough to research the product in the first place. And I will have to admit that I delved into MFDP on my experience with Hasselblad that had always been good. My CFV had a problem, but it was addressed and corrected by Hasselblad. After that it worked flawlessly.

    This thread has been very civil. Let us all be as kind to one another as we can, but please be honest and open enough to be critical when it is required. And let us all be big enough to accept it as it is presented.

    Greg

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    I'm fairly new to MFD world and I can see where the OP is coming from. For many of you, since you've been at it for a while, all the facts seems like common knowledge. It isn't. Some of you said "you should have asked the question before you bought" ... well, sometimes you don't realize something until it happens to you so you don't know to ask about it. Why would he doubt what the brochure says that he can use the DB on a technical camera? Should a user go down the list of features and double check that indeed they are working as described?

    Even in this thread, after he expressed his concern, David still gave a political correct answer: neither here or there. Sometimes trying every possible body and back combination is not a real world possibility.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    David, why comes from Hasselblad nearly nothing in German? Every 30€ tool have instructions in many languages. Of course, most people understand english, but sometimes it helps much more when you can read it in your mother-language! I asked last spring Hasselblad when will com a manual in german for the H4D... The answer was: in the fall. Now we have many month more. Today I received the HTS 1.5. Manual only in english. Oh, how cool would it be to read it in german! For me it have also to do something with respect to the customers they pay such a lot money for your products! rem

  42. #42
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Valentin,

    I just read your post last, so i'll comment first.

    Exactly! I like your term "politically correct", but I also understand the answer to a degree. For most, they probably don't care about that connectivity, but I knew that someday I would want to explore those options. I did not know of the extent of micro-lenses and the nature of quantum physics on DB's., but perhaps, if Hasselblad would put an asterisk or caveat next to that info, it would allow the potential buyer to seek more info to see if that will affect their choice. I agree with Thomas too, that occasional use is no less important.

    Marc,
    Thanks for the comment, it is emotional...and complex. Ultimately, it was my choice to go with the H4D, a fantastic camera that suit the needs for many applications. My issues with the actual camera are an anomaly...
    As an actor, I can hide behind a character, but photography, for me, is a very personal experience, one in which, I can hold in permanent form, what fascinates my perceptions. Not always good, but honest.

    My replies are often emotional rather than logical, but we're all artists... and emotion is what motivates many images. I consider myself in good company.

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    ok, johhny, you have teased us enough:

    emmy, artist, actor, maybe in NYC

    who is hiding behind that mask?

  44. #44
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    who is hiding behind that mask?
    The answer to that is pretty obvious, don't you think? It's clearly Elvis.

  45. #45
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Jim,

    Nothing to mysterious. I got the Emmy for producing something for TV, but have always been involved with acting too... wait ...I have to go, I have to put lingerie on my model girlfriend..

  46. #46
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    What I think is, that there should be a sticky thread for newbies in MF to go through. Specifically how MF differs from 35mm, and reiterate the importance of
    a) Research
    b) Dealer evaluation
    c) Limitations of MF
    d) RAW processing
    .
    .
    .

    Though some of prospective MF shooters would be discouraged, in the long run, it is better be discouraged rather than bitter.

    Of course if some one takes the plunge, and makes a large investment just on whim, then no one can help them. As some one said, just because you have the means and bought a Ferrari, does not necessarily guarantee satisfaction in a bumper to bumper commute (and crib ad ifinitum about huge service bills)

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Marc,

    I did in fact, get offered $1800.00 more than your updated price for an S2. So, for me, it's like getting free use of a camera for the year. And I was only repeating certain aspects to reply to a comment, but thanks for not taking sides.

    Your cute funny smiley faces really do put an emphasis on the points you made!

    Alas, this forum may not be for me...I post comments and instead of practical useful knowledge to disseminate, I have to defend my comments...all the time. Although, gentleman like PeterA and others don't judge me on my lack of MFD experience, they encourage and inspire (pic of woman with Leica...thanks Peter) and great photographers like Don Libby who also share similar experiences, and of course Bryan Siebel...dude you rock! There's more of course, and I do appreciate all i've learned. Most of you are amazing professionals and the generous nature of photographers to share their recipes is an outstanding quality! This is how we learn...
    Mate, I know you feel a bit like you're taking a bit of a pasting here.

    Please take a small step back and consider what I am about to say.

    Of all the forums you could go to, this is the most robust. It is populated by people who are well informed, well intentioned, and genuinely willing to give you meaningful advice. That advice is not always what you want to hear but give it the respect to at least consider it. You don't have to agree with it. Would you rather hang out with a bunch of twits posing as know-it-alls sitting around in a mutual-congratulation society?
    The best way to learn is to surround yourself with people who know more than you. I think you just found such a place. To wimp out now does not become you. I suspect you are made of sterner stuff.
    To be honest, I think people have been pretty polite with you. I've had much sharper exchanges with many here, Jurgen and Marc to name just a few. I haven't always agreed with them, but I continue the dialogue because there is underlying respect here. I would happily continue the debate face to face with anyone here for that reason.
    Stick around and play. The game can get a bit rough, but in the end it's all in fun!
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    To the OP:

    You know what? I've thought about it more and you are right. You have every reason and right to be frustrated and angry ... and I retract most of what I've said here ... because to be honest it would have pissed me off too.

    We're all just photographers trying to do the best we can. Dealing with this gear stuff has become a past time that has grown expodentially as everything has become more complex and specialized, and product cycles have grown shorter and shorter ... not to mention horrifying expensive.

    It can all become bewildering and emotional.

    Frankly, it is emotional energy better spent making photographs than engaging in brand or marketing wars that set one user against another. Let the makers slug it out ... I just want to make pictures and have carefully picked what I think will best help me do that ... which isn't necessarily what may be best for the next person.

    If other users, reps, or companies want to put their spin on this-verses-that to bolster their decisions, offerings, or whatever ... let the competition answer them ... I'm done. My loyalty and energy is better focused on my work, clients and earning a living for my family.

    Best of luck on your next steps, and good shooting to you!

    -Marc
    TOTALLY with you on this one Mark.
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

  49. #49
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    I'm fairly new to MFD world and I can see where the OP is coming from. For many of you, since you've been at it for a while, all the facts seems like common knowledge. It isn't. Some of you said "you should have asked the question before you bought" ... well, sometimes you don't realize something until it happens to you so you don't know to ask about it. Why would he doubt what the brochure says that he can use the DB on a technical camera? Should a user go down the list of features and double check that indeed they are working as described?

    Even in this thread, after he expressed his concern, David still gave a political correct answer: neither here or there. Sometimes trying every possible body and back combination is not a real world possibility.
    As many have pointed out, it is our dealers that we have to rely on for advice. Sadly, not all dealers are as well informed or open as they should be. My dealer in Australia had an interesting approach in that they would refer some of their new customers to long-term pro users for a user testimonial. I was one of those photographers when I lived in Oz. I did insist, however, that I would tell the enquirer the weaknesses as well as the strengths of the gear.
    They had no problem with this.

    The process can get a little complicated when manufacturers either claim or imply that their equipment can do things they know perfectly well it can't yet do. It doesn't count that you have it "under development". This simply breaches trust and damages a brand.
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

  50. #50
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad frustration vs Technical obsession

    Just taking a read through all this. When you think of expensive products one might purchase - a house, a car, a boat, a camera...and you think of the information available to support each purchase, it can get a little precarious. And when you're talking big money, that's not a comfortable place to find yourself in. But I was thinking about the information process for these type of purchases and they range from completely cryptic to plenty of detail....about everything positive.

    Not to scare anyone unduly, but yes, you can lose money on these products. You can make the wrong decision and end up with a product that is not to your liking and experience buyer regret.

    Traditionally, cameras are a bit of a simpler experience in that you just put film in and press the shutter with the proper exposure. And with the buying experience expectation that the seller is also *an authority, *someone who empathizes with, respects and even shares your values, if not your vision, *will look out for you as a result.

    But today, buying a camera, even an inexpensive camera seems much more complicated because on the low end, there are so many choices, and on the high end, there are no pain, no gain features, that aren't always obvious to the buyer.

    So, from that standpoint, I can sympathize to a degree with JGD, because traditionally, there is an expectation that this is, after all, a camera. Regardless of the reality, I can understand that.

    From the seller's vantage point, I feel there should never be a "they should have known" approach to a buyer's remorse.

    It's easy enough to go through JGD's list of issues (sudden depreciation, inflexible and non-aggressive trade-in value, camera incompatibility or limitation) and break them down to a rationalization of why, pertaining to the industry itself, the manufacture themselves, etc, that address each of his concerns.

    But regardless, I understand where he is coming from. Should he have done more due diligence? Yes, but perhaps he didn't know that he needed to. It's a camera. I think today, if you are selling cameras, especially expensive ones, you need to ask questions, questions, questions. You need to discuss products in terms of relativity to others and be specific to application and conditions and draw this out. You cannot assume a client calling to buy a camera will know to offer them up.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

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