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Thread: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

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    PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    I know these types of threads are a little taboo... I've been reading these forums for a while trying to glean whatever knowledge I could, but I'm having a hard time figuring out the important differences between these systems and figuring out what would be better for me. I also don't have any local dealers, so that isn't very helpful. The nearest dealer is in Dallas (4hrs away) to check out some PhaseOne gear, but nobody anywhere near here sells Hasselblad, for the sake of comparison.

    In terms of the things I shoot... architectural, environmental portraits, family portraits, weddings are the bulk of my work. MFDB is clearly not going to be for -everything- as the flexibility of my Canon system is important to me (at this point anyways) during weddings, for example.

    So here's some of what I -do- know:

    Hasselblad lenses all have leaf-shutters: high-speed sync = win.
    Ergonomics/weight it looks like PhaseOne = win.

    That's pretty much the extent of my knowledge... they both use microlenses I think, but I'm not interested in large-format tech cameras and don't foresee myself getting into that...

    So what are some other practical things I should maybe be aware of? Battery life? Types of batteries? Comparison of viewfinder size/brightness? Design of the camera itself (Hasselblad vs Phase/Mamiya vs Contax?)...?

    Furthermore... anyone near San Antonio want to let me play with their gear? Lunch on me, haha.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Some differences that I found during my search:

    1. Hassy viewfinder is the best hands down. You have to look through one to see that.
    2. Leaf shutter - both systems have leaf shutter (aka highs speed sync). With the Phase/Mamiya you need the LS lenses from Schneider
    3. Ergonomics is a personal thing so you have to hold both of them and see which one you like.

    One thing I didn't like about the H system was that many settings were changed via menu system. I like the old way: knobs.

    The newer H bodies only accepts digital backs from Hassy (H2 accepts other manufacturers as well; V system as well).

    You can't go wrong with either of them. You just need to find one to try out and see which one you like better.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    I tried and bought my hasselblad gear from www.houseofvictor.com It's in Dallas, really nice guy John Shipes, Phone # 214.741.2624. But I just don't know why the webpage redirects you to http://hotwire-digital.com/.

    Anyway, I can tell you why I choose hasselblad.

    1. Leaf shutter on all lenses lineup. Phase one right now "only" have 3 lenses 55mm 2.8, 80mm 2.8 and the 110mm 2.8, but from what I've heard they are pretty good)

    * The PhaseOne 645 DF camera also have a focal plane shutter that tops on 1/4000s, the Hasselblad H1, H2, H3D, H4D doesn't have a focal plane shutter at all.
    * Phase One LS lenses can sync up to 1/1600s only with the p40+ and p65+ backs.

    2. The 100mm f/2.2, that lens is a gem for portraits.

    3. Only 1 battery for the system (Battery grip). With phase one you need batteries for the camera and for the back.

    4. The HTS 1.5 tilt and shift adapter. Currently I don't have it, but I'm planning to get it. You can do panos really easy and be creative with the perspective and focus plane (I shoot a lot of portraits).

    5. Ergonomics. Something you should try first.

    6. True focus system. It's an awesome feature, here's a good explanation.

    7. The 35-90 4-5.6 lens, it's a terrific lens, but really expensive ($7,000) That I got free in a promotion when I bought the H4D-40.

    8. Hasselblad mirror delay option. I'm not shure if phase one DF camera has it, but it works great to reduce vibration.


    Things I don't like of the hasselblad:

    - The battery "only" last about 450 shots (I use 1 1/2 in a complete photoshot). With the Nikon D700 I would get around 600-700. Actually 450 shots are pretty good . Well I don't like that they fully charge in about 8-9 hours and cost $250 a piece.
    - Fast "normal" 50mm lens... sometimes I need one with at least a f/2.8... (weddings of other stuff)
    - Phocus Software. I'm lukewarm about it. You can get the best of your images with Phocus, and it works great, but It's really slow for checking focus, sorting and rating. When you have more than 300 images on a folder It really starts to get slow (I have a Mac Pro with 3.33 GhHz 6-core, 24 GB ram and with a SSD)... now I just export JPEGS to catalog them in Lightroom and then adjust the bests in Phocus.

    What I would like to have from phase one:

    - Focal plane shutter, sometimes you JUST NEED IT (Rarely, but it comes handy).
    - The new IQ backs looks awesome, the LCD, the menus, instant preview, etc etc.


    What I miss from my Nikon D700:

    - ISO 200. Hasselbald ISO 200 looks great but if you need the cleanest file possible its with 100.
    - Vibration. With MFD to shoot hand-held anything less than 2.5x the reciprocal of the focal length its almost impossible to get a vibration free image.

    So adding ISO 100 (or ISO 50 in some cases) + the 2.5x + MFD has shallower depth of field + MFD doesn't have "prime" 1.2 or 1.4 lenses... it becomes harder to shoot hand-held images. With the 100mm lens I use to shoot always with a monopod and nothing under 1/250s to get comfortable.


    Good luck! and please try them both before making a decision!

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Aldo
    I'm not sure why some people get such a few number of shots per battery charge.
    are you shooting tethered or to card?
    check the image out to see my confusion.
    am

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    It is very difficult to outline all of the subtile differences between various makes of MFD cameras/digital backs without living with a system for some time. I suppose that is the value of a forum like this, populated with so many highly experienced users of MFD.

    All one can do is share their reasons for choice, and allow you to see which better matches up to your requirements ... then do more homework and demo the products.

    I tried and owned various different systems, and can safely say none of them meet every requirement you or I could list. I selected, and have been comfortable with, the Hasselblad H system for these reasons:

    It is a total Leaf Shutter system: the advantage of high speed sync with all eleven lenses from 28mm to 300mm including two outstanding zooms outweighs the top shutter speed of 1/800th disadvantage for my applications. In actual practice, I rarely run up against the 1/800th stopping point, and when I do I simply use a high quality MC ND filter.

    The H system offers various interchangeable viewfinders, and I occasionally use the H waist-level finder for lower shots, or a different perspective. This finder is not metered nor is it really useable in portrait mode.

    The current H system allows use of the HTS/1.5 for front standard Tilt-Shift work. I use it for table top photography to increase depth-of-field, and on location to defocus certain parts of a portrait or vista, or to do shift work and post processing stitching for panoramics. 28mm through 100mm prime lenses can be used ... effectively providing you with five T/S lens options. The 1.5 part of the name means it adds a 1.5X magnification factor, so a 28mm is effectively a 40mm ... which is still pretty wide on a MFD camera. The HTS/1.5 is small, easy to take with and use ... and is electronically integrated into the software lens correction systems in the Phocus software. It can be difficult to focus when extreme T/S are applied, just like most any T/S kit.

    The combination of leaf shutters, and the user selected millisecond mirror-delay option, of the H system make hand-holding more viable than without.

    I like the ergonomics of the H camera because all the important controls are buttons on the grip or viewfinder which, with a little practice, can be activated without taking your eye from the viewfinder ... and many are visible in the viewfinder. Many key functions can be assigned to a user selected button for instant access without scrolling a menu. I have Manual WB assigned to a front grip button that when pressed automatically fires a WB shot and sets the proper WB ... no menus, scrolling, or fuss ... just press and done.

    With the H4 camera came a major leap forward in AF technology called True Focus/APL (Absolute Position Lock). MF photography is notorious for very shallow DOF, so especially when shooting closer subjects off-center it can be very difficult to keep the subject in focus when you recompose. TF/APL corrects that issue ... I can swiftly focus with TF, then recompose and place the subject at the very edge of the frame, and the point of focus will stay perfectly in focus ... even when shooting at minimum focus range with a f/2.2 aperture which has wafer thin depth-of-field. For off center subjects, I've found it faster and more accurate then even the best 35mm DSLRs.

    There are other subtile differences, but the above are why I prefer the Hasselblad for much of my work.

    -Marc

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by arashm View Post
    Aldo
    I'm not sure why some people get such a few number of shots per battery charge.
    are you shooting tethered or to card?
    check the image out to see my confusion.
    am
    I know! 1376 images with 45% left?
    I'm shooting to a card. Usually I review the images just to check composition, but I don't think I use the LCD that much. My photo sessions are about 3-4 hours for 400-600 exposures.

    I just reset the PMU on battery to see if there's an improvement, I'm going right now to a photo session and I'll post how it went...

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Thanks for the feedback so far guys. Anyone who prefers PhaseOne want to chime in with some specific reasons / experience compared to Hassy?

    (I've talked to Hassy and they'll send me a demo if I want for a few days... almost certainly going to take them up on that.)

    One question also re the Hassy system... the lenses are all leaf-shutter, syncing with flash up to 1/800 no problemo... but 1/800 is also their absolute highest shutter speed right? (thus the advantage of focal plane shutters?) It's sort of a double-edged sword... on the one hand, I'm basically gaining two stops of sun-killing power with my Profoto strobes. On the other hand, if I'm shooting available light I might have to use ND filters (if I don't want to shoot at f/11) which make the system a bit more annoying to use in addition to the extra bulk.

    Oh and I've heard people talking about shutter lag... that sounds like a huge step back from DSLRs... how bad is this 'shutter lag' really? We're not talking like point-n-shoot shutter lag I assume (please tell me this assumption is not wrong lol), but the idea of having any noticeable shutter lag on a $10k+ camera is strange to me.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    As others mentioned, nothing will give you more info than a hands-on demo of both systems.
    For example if you shoot mostly handheld then the ergonomics will be a top priority, foe example if your 400 image session is all verticals, will you be comfortable hand holding the camera vertically for 3-4 hrs?

    If a fast sync speed is crucial for you then you should know that the Phase One/ Mamiya 645DF, if used with one of the LS lenses (55mm, 80mm, 110mm and soon 150mm) can reach 1/1,600, providing that the digital back is a P40+, P65+ or one of the Leaf Aptus-II backs (5, 6, 7, 8, 10 or 12). And at the same time, with the same lens you can get 1/4,000 using the focal-plane shutter.

    Shutter lag...again you'll have to try it for yourself to get a feel of is this real or not.

    Good luck!

    Yair

    PS In Texas the same guy can show you both Leaf and Phase: Link
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by TTLKurtis View Post
    Thanks for the feedback so far guys. Anyone who prefers PhaseOne want to chime in with some specific reasons / experience compared to Hassy?

    (I've talked to Hassy and they'll send me a demo if I want for a few days... almost certainly going to take them up on that.)

    One question also re the Hassy system... the lenses are all leaf-shutter, syncing with flash up to 1/800 no problemo... but 1/800 is also their absolute highest shutter speed right? (thus the advantage of focal plane shutters?) It's sort of a double-edged sword... on the one hand, I'm basically gaining two stops of sun-killing power with my Profoto strobes. On the other hand, if I'm shooting available light I might have to use ND filters (if I don't want to shoot at f/11) which make the system a bit more annoying to use in addition to the extra bulk.

    Oh and I've heard people talking about shutter lag... that sounds like a huge step back from DSLRs... how bad is this 'shutter lag' really? We're not talking like point-n-shoot shutter lag I assume (please tell me this assumption is not wrong lol), but the idea of having any noticeable shutter lag on a $10k+ camera is strange to me.
    RE: Shutter lag. First time I've heard of this. Many of these cameras are used to shoot high-end fashion ... I doubt they would be if they had shutter lag. I use MFD to shoot candid wedding and personal work. None of them shoot @ 10FPS, and the AF isn't as fast as pro 35mm DSLRs if that is what you mean.

    RE: 1/800th top shutter speed with leaf-shutter and bright available light. You are correct. Same for the ubiquitous traditional leaf shutter cameras like the Hassey V (1/500tth), Rollie (1/500th up to 1/1000th with certain lenses) and Mamiya RZ (1/400th). Keep in mind that the available ISO of most backs is 50 and most MF lenses max aperture is higher than 35mm DSLR lenses, and the DOF is much shallower with MFD.

    However, there conceivably can be instances that can happen where one would be shooting at f/2.2 or 2.8 in extremely bright light @ ISO 50 and run out of shutter speed. Most MFD lenses in any given system are usually a maximum of two filter sizes ... and I personally carry Polarizers when shooting in that kind of light anyway ... which act as NDs.

    If you do not project use of a digital back on a technical camera and are not in a rush to build your system, you may be a candidate for the Leica S2. It is designed like a 35mm DSLR in terms of ergonomics and handling, and can shoot either focal plane shutter or Leaf shutter with all focal lengths. Trouble is Leica is turtle slow to market with the Leaf shutter equipped lenses ... so they allow you to buy the regular version and pay the difference when the Leaf Shutter versions become available. Not a choice for someone in a hurry. I also shoot a S2 and prefer it over any modular MFD for most of my work now ... and will upgrade the lenses to leaf shutter when available.

    Again, nothing written can substitute for a hands-on experience in the types of situations you typically face ... and keep in mind that you will not become proficient with any of these systems or their software over-night.

    -Marc

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by TTLKurtis View Post
    Oh and I've heard people talking about shutter lag... that sounds like a huge step back from DSLRs... how bad is this 'shutter lag' really? We're not talking like point-n-shoot shutter lag I assume (please tell me this assumption is not wrong lol), but the idea of having any noticeable shutter lag on a $10k+ camera is strange to me.
    Hi - I think wires are crossed. This is probably the mirror delay that Marc describes. Its an elective shutter lag (set in milliseconds) that is often desirable and totally customizable. Helps reduce vibration induced movement. This was a wonderful feature on my H3D - and I am hoping that my 645DF due any day will have the same. With no delay dialed-in, the H3D releases felt instantaneous to me at least

    M

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    ....
    If a fast sync speed is crucial for you then you should know that the Phase One/ Mamiya 645DF, if used with one of the LS lenses (55mm, 80mm, 110mm and soon 150mm) can reach 1/1,600, providing that the digital back is a P40+, P65+ or one of the Leaf Aptus-II backs (5, 6, 7, 8, 10 or 12).....

    Yair

    From reading the datasheet, it seems that other backs (like P30+) can achieve 1/800 flash sync speed. While not 1/1600, it is comparable with the Hassy system.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Hi, nice to see you here (I'm Beni over on FM). As Marc says, it's going to be rare that you will find yourself running out of shutter with backs that do a native iso 50 and are not that fast. Especially when you get less DOF and a far smoother focus roll off with MF than with 35mm so that you will not need such fast apertures anyway. Marc is a wedding shooter and one of the few who shoot weddings with a MFDB rig and he'd be the first I'd turn to if I was stupid enough to do wedding with a digital MF rig (would be stupid for me, my business ain't so great at the mo!).

    That said, one day, one day, that georgous P30+ back will be in my hands, it's really good even at iso 1600, Guy had some raw files up here from the P30+ once upon a time and if you process the high iso ones in Capture One then you're in for a treat, couldn't believe how good the file was!

    Most of all, in this day and age, I think that you have to ask yourself, what will a digital MF solution give you economically, it's a very slippery slope as witnessed by so many here, for weddings, unless you already have a system and know it well so why not, I'd say it would take a pair of big ones to make the step.
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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Hey Beni,

    It is a slippery slope indeed lol. While I primarily post on the wedding boards on FM, I don't only shoot weddings. I think MF might work for me during weddings, but I would first become very comfortable shooting architectural work, environmental portraits, headshots, etc. with the gear before even THINKING about taking it there.

    Economically it's not the smartest move, for sure... but if I can tell myself the quality is worth it for my own satisfaction if nothing else... lol

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Oh... another question.

    With my Canon system I can shoot wirelessly tethered. RAW in-camera, with small JPEGs to the tethered system.

    Is WIRELESS tethering possible with MFDBs or is the only option to use a physical cable?

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Physical cable. If you need 1600 get the Phase. I really liked the P30 plus. See digital review section
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Boo on physical cable... I thought that was the case but hoped differently. You would think someone would have developed something like the small wireless transmitters Canon has for the 1-series for a MFDB. Hm.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Hopefully someday soon. Really just a matter of time but maybe only in new backs. Hard to say but things are changing for the better.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    You could get the pentax 645D and use the wifi SD cards (I forget their name), with small jpgs it should work fast enough. No idea if the system can write jpg to one slot and RAW to the other though, should be able to.
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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by TTLKurtis View Post
    Hey Beni,

    It is a slippery slope indeed lol. While I primarily post on the wedding boards on FM, I don't only shoot weddings. I think MF might work for me during weddings, but I would first become very comfortable shooting architectural work, environmental portraits, headshots, etc. with the gear before even THINKING about taking it there.

    Economically it's not the smartest move, for sure... but if I can tell myself the quality is worth it for my own satisfaction if nothing else... lol
    Absolutely ... would never purchase a MFD system for weddings alone. Nikon/Canon/Sony are more than enough. However, if you have other applications more suited to it, then why not also use it to upgrade certain wedding work? It is actually more useable at weddings than you'd first suspect. My MFD gear was bought and paid for via commercial work ... which has all but fallen off a cliff in the past few years ... and weddings aren't all that hot anymore either. So if starting out now, I wouldn't even bother with MFD except for personal work, and self-satisfaction. The slippery slope is because the IQ is so obviously better that it is very difficult to put the Genie back in the bottle

    -Marc

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    My humble advice, think and test very carefully before going to MF. I did it a few years ago but I wouldn't do it in the present climate. I presently use Hasselblad with a few lenses but have also used Phase a lot - negligible difference in image quality, medium diffs in ease of use IMO.

    BUT (big but, notice) I recently bought a Canon TSE 24 and a 17 (mk 2's) for a specific project and am bowled over by the quality it is possible to get out of my 5D2. The glass makes a bigger difference than I had realised, and I've been at this game a long long time. Try your Canon with the best glass you can get hold of (you may have it already) and compare both Hass and Phase without any preconceptions. See what you think.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    I've had the 24 TS-E and sold it, I probably should have held onto it for architectural work though. That said the 14, 24 and 16-35 serve that purpose pretty well minus the T/S.

    I'm shooting with 5D II, 14L, 24L, 35L, 50 1.4, 100 2.8 Macro, 200L, 300L, 16-35L, 70-200L. I'm really not unhappy with the quality I'm seeing now. I just really want to see how much better it can be.

  22. #22
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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    I had the TSE 24 mk1, and didn't rate it at all. Tried several copies (as I always do), couldn't handle the corner softness, the distortion or the CA. I had the 16-35 L mk 1 and rated it OK at f8 to 11 but sadly lacking outside that narrow range. Now have the 16-35 mk2 and don't find it much better. But my mk2 TSE's are phenomenal.

    EDIT: whoops, sorry. Just realised this might be going too far off topic. And don't mean to offend any MFDB users - I'm one myself.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Yeah I'm not a big fan of the 16-35, but when I do use it it's always at f/8-f/11 anyways.

    The 24L II is spectacular, as is the 14L II.

    It's been a long time since I used the 24 TS-E II, but I remember thinking at the time how crazy sharp it was. (This was before I had the other wide primes though so not sure how it compares.)

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Back to the original qu: "PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31"

    They use the same Kodak microlensed sensor, so they should perform identically on noise at a given ISO...with one exception: long exposures. PhaseOne optimised their Kodak-sensored P+ backs for exposures up to 1 hour, whereas AFAIK Hasselblad top out at the usual 1 minute.

    Another (and for me, the biggest) "win" for the Mamiya/Phase platform is the sheer range of lenses you can use on it - thanks to two factors: its focal plane shutter, and having one of the shortest flange registration distances in medium format SLRs. With the Hasselblad H bodies, you are limited to H and V series (leaf-shutter only) lenses. With the Mamiya/Phase, you have:

    * Mamiya/Phase 645AF lenses
    * Mamiya 645 manual lenses (including exotic and fast ones like the 24/4 fisheye, 50/4 shift, 80/1.9, 140/4 soft focus, 200/2.8 APO, 300/2.8 APO, 500/8 mirror, and many more)
    * Hasselblad V lenses (INCLUDING the F series like the 110/2, that the Hasselblad H bodies can't use)
    * Bronica SQ lenses
    * Pentax 67 lenses (attractive long, fast teles like the 400/4 EDIF)
    * Pentacon Six, Exakta 66 and Kiev 60 lenses (Schneider, Carl Zeiss Jena, Hartblei, Arsat fisheye, etc.)

    The point about the lenses is that the range is huge, the speeds fast, the cost low, and the niches are all filled. You cannot say the same about your options with the Hasselblad. Of course that may not matter to you, if your work only requires a limited setup like a 3-lens wide-normal-short tele kit.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Back to the original qu: "PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31"

    They use the same Kodak microlensed sensor, so they should perform identically on noise at a given ISO...with one exception: long exposures. PhaseOne optimised their Kodak-sensored P+ backs for exposures up to 1 hour, whereas AFAIK Hasselblad top out at the usual 1 minute.

    Another (and for me, the biggest) "win" for the Mamiya/Phase platform is the sheer range of lenses you can use on it - thanks to two factors: its focal plane shutter, and having one of the shortest flange registration distances in medium format SLRs. With the Hasselblad H bodies, you are limited to H and V series (leaf-shutter only) lenses. With the Mamiya/Phase, you have:

    * Mamiya/Phase 645AF lenses
    * Mamiya 645 manual lenses (including exotic and fast ones like the 24/4 fisheye, 50/4 shift, 80/1.9, 140/4 soft focus, 200/2.8 APO, 300/2.8 APO, 500/8 mirror, and many more)
    * Hasselblad V lenses (INCLUDING the F series like the 110/2, that the Hasselblad H bodies can't use)
    * Bronica SQ lenses
    * Pentax 67 lenses (attractive long, fast teles like the 400/4 EDIF)
    * Pentacon Six, Exakta 66 and Kiev 60 lenses (Schneider, Carl Zeiss Jena, Hartblei, Arsat fisheye, etc.)

    The point about the lenses is that the range is huge, the speeds fast, the cost low, and the niches are all filled. You cannot say the same about your options with the Hasselblad. Of course that may not matter to you, if your work only requires a limited setup like a 3-lens wide-normal-short tele kit.
    The P30+ back does 1 hour exposures? If so does it also require the additional 1 hour black frame exposure = 2 hours?

    FYI, there are 11 HC lenses in the H system not 3 as slyly implied ... from 28mm to 300mm, and a HC 1.7X, HTS/TS. Plus as mentioned, virtually ALL Zeiss V LS lenses can be used with high speed sync via the CF Adapter which Phase can't do ... unless you only require leaf shutter applications limited to 3 lenses kit with no 28mm wide angle, no zooms like the 35-90 or 50-110, and no long lenses like the 210, and 300 ... nor any of the excellent Zeiss V LS lenses

    As always, depends on what is important to each photographer. Old glass that's questionable with today's sensors and requires stop down metering and shooting, or a modern fully coupled system (including the Zeiss V optics) with an excellent range of focal lengths?

    And then one is stuck using the Mamiya camera ... Or alternatively, some outdated/discontinued dead end camera system.


    -Marc

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The P30+ back does 1 hour exposures? If so does it also require the additional 1 hour black frame exposure = 2 hours?
    Yes and Yes.

    The spec on all P+ series backs is one hour at 63F / 17C. Though to be fair I would tell you if you plan on exceeding 20-30 minutes on a regular basis that you want to go with a 45+ as it's the best back in the world for long exposures. However I've personally done a 32 minute exposure with a P30+ and it looked darn good. Bare in mind the base ISO of the 30+ is 100 whereas the base ISO of the 45+ is 50, so you do gain a free stop of sensitivity during your long exposure.

    All Phase backs require the additional black frame exposure. Whatever length of time you're shooting for the back will expose that amount of time after the shutter closes to evaluate the quantity and type of noise on the sensor. Major pain in the butt, but it's a key component in the technology that allows Phase to expose 15 times longer than any other back.

    Anyone planning to shoot more than 30 seconds on any digital back should really insist that they have the chance to actually shoot such an image on the system they intend to buy. Specs are one thing, but the quality of shadow transitions, fine detail rendition, texture rendition, color fidelity, color transitions, hot pixels, and file flexibility all vary dramatically between various back makes/models past 30 seconds. I've seen backs spec'd at 30 seconds that I wouldn't personally shoot over 10 seconds and I've seen back's spec'd at 30 seconds that I wouldn't hesitate to shoot at 30 seconds if needed.

    Software and firmware also plays a big role. When the 65+ was first released I found the 60 second spec to be a good bit "optimistic" to put it nicely. A few months later after several software and firmware updates I tested again and found I was much happier with that spec.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Love examples here is a P40+ Dalsa at 35 seconds ISO 50. No issues



    Need longer than P30+ at 30 minutes was very good from past experience and P45+ at one hour was great also.
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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Here is a P30+ at 35 minutes which I think 35minutes is the break point of the P30+. ISO 100 here


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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Back to the original qu: "PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31"

    They use the same Kodak microlensed sensor, so they should perform identically on noise at a given ISO...with one exception: long exposures. PhaseOne optimised their Kodak-sensored P+ backs for exposures up to 1 hour, whereas AFAIK Hasselblad top out at the usual 1 minute.

    Another (and for me, the biggest) "win" for the Mamiya/Phase platform is the sheer range of lenses you can use on it - thanks to two factors: its focal plane shutter, and having one of the shortest flange registration distances in medium format SLRs. With the Hasselblad H bodies, you are limited to H and V series (leaf-shutter only) lenses. With the Mamiya/Phase, you have:

    * Mamiya/Phase 645AF lenses
    * Mamiya 645 manual lenses (including exotic and fast ones like the 24/4 fisheye, 50/4 shift, 80/1.9, 140/4 soft focus, 200/2.8 APO, 300/2.8 APO, 500/8 mirror, and many more)
    * Hasselblad V lenses (INCLUDING the F series like the 110/2, that the Hasselblad H bodies can't use)
    * Bronica SQ lenses
    * Pentax 67 lenses (attractive long, fast teles like the 400/4 EDIF)
    * Pentacon Six, Exakta 66 and Kiev 60 lenses (Schneider, Carl Zeiss Jena, Hartblei, Arsat fisheye, etc.)

    The point about the lenses is that the range is huge, the speeds fast, the cost low, and the niches are all filled. You cannot say the same about your options with the Hasselblad. Of course that may not matter to you, if your work only requires a limited setup like a 3-lens wide-normal-short tele kit.

    My goodness, you left out the new Schneider lenses, like the 120mm Tilt/Shift, and the 55mm, 80mm, 110mm, 150mm Lea Shutter lenses.


    And the fact that Schneider will be producing lenses for Phase One cameras for a long time. Pretty clear that long term, Hasselblad users will have access to Hasselblad H lenses and Phase users will have access to Schneider lenses. Take your pick.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Here is a P30+ at 35 minutes which I think 35minutes is the break point of the P30+. ISO 100 here

    I'd love to see this processed in 6.1.1 with color noise reduction set to 70, luminance noise reduction at 5 or 10 and single pixel noise reduction turned up to taste.

    There is a new color noise reduction algorithm that will aid in the color "wonkiness" in the left of the frame.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Raw is missing. Dang
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    My goodness, you left out the new Schneider lenses, like the 120mm Tilt/Shift, and the 55mm, 80mm, 110mm, 150mm Lea Shutter lenses.


    And the fact that Schneider will be producing lenses for Phase One cameras for a long time. Pretty clear that long term, Hasselblad users will have access to Hasselblad H lenses and Phase users will have access to Schneider lenses. Take your pick.


    Steve Hendrix
    Yesterday I saw a Schneider enlarger lens mounted on a Zork tilt/ shift adapters (the lens's mount had a tilt head built into it) with a set of extension tubes about 20cm long, working on a 645DF...

    It is used for some extreme macro work by a known research institute so not just for fun...
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by aldo View Post
    I know! 1376 images with 45% left?
    I'm shooting to a card. Usually I review the images just to check composition, but I don't think I use the LCD that much. My photo sessions are about 3-4 hours for 400-600 exposures.

    I just reset the PMU on battery to see if there's an improvement, I'm going right now to a photo session and I'll post how it went...
    I am piqued too...usually when I get to this stage, its about 1/10th the number of those images...same either tethered or on CF. Am keen to find out more.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The P30+ back does 1 hour exposures? If so does it also require the additional 1 hour black frame exposure = 2 hours?

    FYI, there are 11 HC lenses in the H system not 3 as slyly implied ... from 28mm to 300mm, and a HC 1.7X, HTS/TS. Plus as mentioned, virtually ALL Zeiss V LS lenses can be used with high speed sync via the CF Adapter which Phase can't do ... unless you only require leaf shutter applications limited to 3 lenses kit with no 28mm wide angle, no zooms like the 35-90 or 50-110, and no long lenses like the 210, and 300 ... nor any of the excellent Zeiss V LS lenses

    As always, depends on what is important to each photographer. Old glass that's questionable with today's sensors and requires stop down metering and shooting, or a modern fully coupled system (including the Zeiss V optics) with an excellent range of focal lengths?

    And then one is stuck using the Mamiya camera ... Or alternatively, some outdated/discontinued dead end camera system.


    -Marc
    Hey Marc,

    6 days ago, you posted in another thread here:

    If other users, reps, or companies want to put their spin on this-verses-that to bolster their decisions, offerings, or whatever ... let the competition answer them ... I'm done. My loyalty and energy is better focused on my work, clients and earning a living for my family.


    So the "new you" lasted a whole 5 days, eh?

    Believe me, I understand! I think that we all have a compulsion to defend our preferred brands and proselytize our choices.

    Anyway: I wasn't being sly, and certainly did not mean that the H system only has 3 lenses. What I meant was that the modern Hasselblad H system is ideal for the equivalent of the traditional Hasselblad V shooter with the "standard 3 lens kit" of 50mm Distagon, 80mm Planar and 150mm Sonnar lenses. Such a photographer had no need for the rarer, more exotic, or plain unavailable lenses like superfast telephotos, or the ability to shoot with arbitrary optical devices like telescopes and enlarging lenses.

    This is how I see the H system. Apart from the cost, I would feel too constrained by its range of optics, even including the V system LS lenses.

    And if the Mamiya/PhaseOne AF bodies had detachable finders like the H bodies, I'd be even happier.

    Ray

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    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    My goodness, you left out the new Schneider lenses, like the 120mm Tilt/Shift, and the 55mm, 80mm, 110mm, 150mm Lea Shutter lenses.



    Steve Hendrix
    Actually Steve, I didn't forget them. They were implicit in my first category, Mamiya/PhaseOne 645AF lenses. They are just another few examples of lenses with the M645 bayonet, AF and electronic aperture control, and a PhaseOne logo on the front. Not a separate category in their own right, according to the Butler classification!

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Actually I consider the LS lenses in another category for the Mamiya AFD mount. Hot stuff or freaking awesome. Take your pick. LOL

    Reality is they render much different than the Phase/Mamiya labels of the 150D and such.

    I really like the way the Schneiders are rendering with a smooth look to them. Hard to describe here in words.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Actually Steve, I didn't forget them. They were implicit in my first category, Mamiya/PhaseOne 645AF lenses. They are just another few examples of lenses with the M645 bayonet, AF and electronic aperture control, and a PhaseOne logo on the front. Not a separate category in their own right, according to the Butler classification!

    Yes, that is what I figured. Just making it a bit more clear to everyone. And actually the Schneider Lenses are branded Schneider.

    *Mamiya AF Lenses (Focal Plane Shutter)

    *Phase One D AF Lenses (updated or completely new versions of the Mamiya AF Focal Plane Shutter Lenses)

    *Schneider LS Lenses (Schneider designed and measured Leaf Shutter lenses

    Mainly, I pointed out and emphasized Schneider because this isn't just a "few Leaf Shutter Lenses". This is a formalized, long term agreement (in excess of 10 years, I believe) between Phase One, Mamiya and Schneider, for Schneider to produce lenses for Phase One/Mamiya camera systems.

    I feel that is one of the most important aspects of the whole Phase One/Mamiya lens situation. And something else to consider: Yes, it is true that Phase One/Mamiya only has 4 Leaf Shutter lenses currently. But they have been on a pace of adding an average of 3 lenses every year for the past several years. Phase One has the financial position to be able to produce lots of new lenses (and cameras). That is not to be underestimated.

    If I look at what Phase One has accomplished the past three years in the economic climate at the time, I would feel very confident about choosing them to invest in when it comes to future development. And the present doesn't look too bad, either.


    Steve Hendrix
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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Hey Marc,

    6 days ago, you posted in another thread here:

    If other users, reps, or companies want to put their spin on this-verses-that to bolster their decisions, offerings, or whatever ... let the competition answer them ... I'm done. My loyalty and energy is better focused on my work, clients and earning a living for my family.


    So the "new you" lasted a whole 5 days, eh?

    Believe me, I understand! I think that we all have a compulsion to defend our preferred brands and proselytize our choices.

    Anyway: I wasn't being sly, and certainly did not mean that the H system only has 3 lenses. What I meant was that the modern Hasselblad H system is ideal for the equivalent of the traditional Hasselblad V shooter with the "standard 3 lens kit" of 50mm Distagon, 80mm Planar and 150mm Sonnar lenses. Such a photographer had no need for the rarer, more exotic, or plain unavailable lenses like superfast telephotos, or the ability to shoot with arbitrary optical devices like telescopes and enlarging lenses.

    This is how I see the H system. Apart from the cost, I would feel too constrained by its range of optics, even including the V system LS lenses.

    And if the Mamiya/PhaseOne AF bodies had detachable finders like the H bodies, I'd be even happier.

    Ray
    Actually Ray that "hiatus" was in context to the "literature accuracy" debate and subsequent spin by the P1 sellers and users here. Let Hasselblad answer those type questions ... it's their business not mine and I can't do anything about it. But thanks for condescending remarks anyway

    I had all that stuff that is so important to you ... along with the cameras actually built for them to fully work ... 203FE for all the Zeiss V lenses fully coupled ... plus all of them worked on my Contax 645 along with enlarger lenses and T/S bellows etc. etc. ... if I wanted that stuff now I'd bolt them onto the S2 ... no thanks, been there, done that, and done that, and done that.

    IMO, this forum has gotten really polarized ... and its reputation of being a place for Phase One only is quickly spreading ... I don't think that was the original intent of the MFD forum ... reminds me a lot of when Guy and I were defending the Leica DMR on another site ... didn't matter what you said or what your opinion was, or the results you got ... it was wrong and beaten to death because it wasn't following the majority party line. In fact, if I recall correctly, that was at least in part the catalyst for starting this forum. Hmmmm.



    -Marc

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Marc seriously I don't think it is polarized at all. If it is than it is totally Hassys fault. No reps here to represent them except David . No dealers that join in and asked several times directly for gear for Jack and I to review which has fallen on deaf ears. Only members that shoot them. You have your opinion which I respect but we have tried and not sure what else we can do to have more representation from Hassy . Frankly there loss which is a real shame since this is a public forum and they are more than welcome. I know Jack and I stay away even though we both shoot Phase from going over the top. Honestly We do not care what name they shoot as long as they are getting what they paid for, what is expected in the system and are happy with there choices. We have NEVER said anything out if turn on any OEM and never will. So that comment is a little out of text and not the whole truth.

    But i will say this in all honesty I read every thread in MF and with the announcement of the new IQ backs I personally have seen a change in attitude from Hassy owners. Not bad or good but maybe a little upset at least that is what I personally am seeing. Maybe it is my imagination or maybe it isn't but the word polarized on this forum has maybe come up in recent times. Frankly we want the forum to be a open book so whatever you may believe does not come from the owners and this is my last word on the subject.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Marc seriously I don't think it is polarized at all. If it is than it is totally Hassys fault. No reps here to represent them except David . No dealers that join in and asked several times directly for gear for Jack and I to review which has fallen on deaf ears. Only members that shoot them. You have your opinion which I respect but we have tried and not sure what else we can do to have more representation from Hassy . Frankly there loss which is a real shame since this is a public forum and they are more than welcome. I know Jack and I stay away even though we both shoot Phase from going over the top. Honestly We do not care what name they shoot as long as they are getting what they paid for, what is expected in the system and are happy with there choices. We have NEVER said anything out if turn on any OEM and never will. So that comment is a little out of text and not the whole truth.

    But i will say this in all honesty I read every thread in MF and with the announcement of the new IQ backs I personally have seen a change in attitude from Hassy owners. Not bad or good but maybe a little upset at least that is what I personally am seeing. Maybe it is my imagination or maybe it isn't but the word polarized on this forum has maybe come up in recent times. Frankly we want the forum to be a open book so whatever you may believe does not come from the owners and this is my last word on the subject.
    I'll take this off line Guy. We've been internet pals for a long time, and a private conversation may be more appropriate ... if you can spare a moment or two.

    -Marc

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    For you absolutely no question about it. Always friends first, I don't want you feeling this way and more important don't want this forum feeling polarized in any way. Can we chat Monday though or in the morning Friday. Nancy home throwing out the honey do's. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Had a chance to check out the latest Phase back at WPPI on Monday. I have to say, I was rather underwhelmed and didn't like the way it felt in my hand very much. Haven't handled the Hasselblad to compare.

    Ironically, I did finally get some hands-on time with the Nikon D3s... and I'm considering ditching Canon now (I don't know any local Nikon shooters so this was my first chance to really play with pro Nikon body / lenses). But that's another discussion for another area of the forum I suppose.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    My goodness, you left out the new Schneider lenses, like the 120mm Tilt/Shift, and the 55mm, 80mm, 110mm, 150mm Lea Shutter lenses.

    Steve Hendrix
    Am I missing something or is there really a 150mm leaf shutter lens available? It sure isn't on the Phase site.

    Victor

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Not released yet
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Are you aware of a release date?

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    I heard late this year. Not cheap either 4k or something. But don't quote me
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Thanks Guy......

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Am I missing something or is there really a 150mm leaf shutter lens available? It sure isn't on the Phase site.

    Victor
    Slated for end of 1st Quarter.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    Hope to see that happen
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: PhaseOne P30+ vs Hasselblad H4D-31

    I have found these comparison discussions very helpful as I also amconsidering Hasselblad Vs Phase One, much the same as the comparison between Nikon and Canon.

    If someone shooting Hasselblad has something good to say about the camera, great, bring it on and same goes for Phase One users.

    How are non owners going to get the initial feel for the cameras if not through these expressed experiences.

    Thank you to all for sharing your experience.

    Mal

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