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Thread: Are you using the '+' of your P+ back ??

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    Are you using the '+' of your P+ back ??

    I have made files comparisons of shots taken with my P40+ at 200 - 400 - 800 iso in 40mp and 10mp mode.
    The lower res files have been upscaled in order to get identical files sizes (downsizing the high res files could also have been done but sounds not logical to me).

    At the end, the 40mp files always win (better details/noise ratio than the 10mp files).

    So the only remaining advantage of the bining function is to bring iso 1600 sensitivity that is not available at 40mp.
    (ok, reduced file sizes on the mem card may also be interesting for some).

    What are your thoughts about that, am I missing something ?

    Vincent

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    Re: Are you using the '+' of your P+ back ??

    To my understanding, that's the whole point of Sensor+, allowing higher ISO. Or smaller files if that's what you want. I would think folks use it in a pinch but I would imagine nobody uses it all the time.

    I don't think you're missing anything.

    [disclaimer: i don't own any MFDB gear and only 'know' what I've read... i'm considering a p30+ or p45+ though. p65+ would be awesome, but that's spendy...]

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    Re: Are you using the '+' of your P+ back ??

    It seems to me that uprezzing the Sensor+ files to 40mp isn't going to be anywhere near as effective for image quality comparisons vs down-rezzing your noisier 40mp images down to a comparable 10mp as the sensor+ versions. That would at least compare pixel binning vs downrezzing.

    I'd naturally expect uprezzed 10mp sensor+ files to be cleaner but less detailed than the equivalent full sized file taken at the same ISO. That's just basic physics/maths. I would expect less noise in the uprezzed files though so that part of your comparison is somewhat unexpected.

    It would be nice if the DF camera/back combination provided a visual cue when you are shooting in P+ mode. I've had a couple of situations where I've used sensor+ with higher ISO the night before and I didn't reset the back before going out and shooting again the next morning. I then noticed a few shots into the session that I was still in sensor+ mode. I realize that this is a personal workflow/discipline thing, but having an obvious indicator in the viewfinder or back would make it easier not to make such a mistake.

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    Re: Are you using the '+' of your P+ back ??

    Quote Originally Posted by anGy View Post
    I have made files comparisons of shots taken with my P40+ at 200 - 400 - 800 iso in 40mp and 10mp mode.
    The lower res files have been upscaled in order to get identical files sizes (downsizing the high res files could also have been done but sounds not logical to me).

    At the end, the 40mp files always win (better details/noise ratio than the 10mp files).

    So the only remaining advantage of the bining function is to bring iso 1600 sensitivity that is not available at 40mp.
    (ok, reduced file sizes on the mem card may also be interesting for some).

    What are your thoughts about that, am I missing something ?

    Vincent
    The whole point of sensor+ is that it is trading resolution for sensitivity. There are no free lunches in photography and I haven't seen anything anywhere that suggests that a pixel-binned file is going to have the same resolving power as a native-res file.
    I have wondered if the P40+ has enough res to be viable when used at 10MP. but my business partner whose work often is printed at no more than magazine sizes uses it regularly and none of his clients have ever commented other than to compliment him.
    I have a P65+ and with sensor plus at ISO1600, my 15MP files are slightly noisier but much richer in detail than my 12MP files from my D700. Beware that such observations from anybody, pro or amateur, are purely subjective and you should do your own testing. In practice, this means that on shoots where previously I would lug both my Phase One DF/Alpa STC system AND my Nikon system, I now often leave my Nikons at home or in the car, not on the shoot. My business is based on a quality-first approach, so I prioritize the camera that gives me the potential to shoot 60MP (with all the IQ advantages of CCD) and no DSLR can come close.
    Whilst I don't use it often, sensor+ is for me a major advantage.
    Cheers,
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Re: Are you using the '+' of your P+ back ??

    Quote Originally Posted by siebel View Post
    The whole point of sensor+ is that it is trading resolution for sensitivity. There are no free lunches in photography and I haven't seen anything anywhere that suggests that a pixel-binned file is going to have the same resolving power as a native-res file.
    I have wondered if the P40+ has enough res to be viable when used at 10MP. but my business partner whose work often is printed at no more than magazine sizes uses it regularly and none of his clients have ever commented other than to compliment him.
    I have a P65+ and with sensor plus at ISO1600, my 15MP files are slightly noisier but much richer in detail than my 12MP files from my D700. Beware that such observations from anybody, pro or amateur, are purely subjective and you should do your own testing. In practice, this means that on shoots where previously I would lug both my Phase One DF/Alpa STC system AND my Nikon system, I now often leave my Nikons at home or in the car, not on the shoot. My business is based on a quality-first approach, so I prioritize the camera that gives me the potential to shoot 60MP (with all the IQ advantages of CCD) and no DSLR can come close.
    Whilst I don't use it often, sensor+ is for me a major advantage.
    Cheers,
    I find the same thing. When traveling by air these days, weight considerations make it difficult to carry MFDB kit and a DSLR. With Sensor+ and a 300 mm lens I can still take hand-held wildlife shots that normally I'd use my Sony for.

    And generally I don't print animal/bird shots as big as I do landscapes, so the lower effective pixel count is of little consequence.

    Bill

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    Re: Are you using the '+' of your P+ back ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    I find the same thing. When traveling by air these days, weight considerations make it difficult to carry MFDB kit and a DSLR. With Sensor+ and a 300 mm lens I can still take hand-held wildlife shots that normally I'd use my Sony for.

    And generally I don't print animal/bird shots as big as I do landscapes, so the lower effective pixel count is of little consequence.

    Bill
    Bill, I agree totally with you on the flying thing. I fly a lot to airports in countries where luggage theft is a big risk. As such I prefer not to put any high-value gear in my checked luggage in the hold. I used to lug the lot in my carry-on, regularly having 30kg's of gear in my regulation-size trolley bag.
    Most airlines are now enforcing a 7 to 10kg limit for carry-on luggage, so the Nikons get left behind even more.
    Cheers,
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Are you using the '+' of your P+ back ??

    The files from my 5DMK-II at ISO 800 don't compare well to my 5DMK-II ISO 100 files. So why I do I use it? Because often, the quality is still adequate and being able to elevate the shutter speed and exposure is often the difference between having something and having nothing.

    The same can be said for shooting a Phase One back at Sensor Plus. No, it is not exactly the same, because the resolution is reduced, but it still extends the opportunities for shooting medium format in situations you might not be able to otherwise.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

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    Re: Are you using the '+' of your P+ back ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    The files from my 5DMK-II at ISO 800 don't compare well to my 5DMK-II ISO 100 files. So why I do I use it? Because often, the quality is still adequate and being able to elevate the shutter speed and exposure is often the difference between having something and having nothing.

    The same can be said for shooting a Phase One back at Sensor Plus. No, it is not exactly the same, because the resolution is reduced, but it still extends the opportunities for shooting medium format in situations you might not be able to otherwise.


    Steve Hendrix
    I agree regarding the 1600 iso option only available in '+' mode. But the meaning of this post is more to find out if 200+, 400+ & 800+ mode do have any real advantage compared to 200, 400 & 800 normal mode.
    Limited files load on the mem card and (maybe) slightly better continuous burst rate are - for me - the only small + of this '+' mode.

    Before testing it I was hoping that the '+' mode would be so much better that choosing it should always be an option to look at when iso 400 or 800 must be used. Now I just remember that there is a 1600 iso option available somewhere in the menu...

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    Re: Are you using the '+' of your P+ back ??

    The hardware pixel binning in Sensor+ quadruples the signal per output pixel while keeping readout noise constant. So the simplistic way of putting it is that signal to noise doubles. Will you see this effect?

    Well, if you are looking at bright elements within the image, where the S/N is already high, you may struggle to tell the difference. A S/N=100 region does not really look perceptibly different to a S/N=50 region. But the eye can easily tell the difference between an S/N=10 region and an S/N=5 region.

    In actual fact, doing a proper noise model calculation, I find that Sensor+ improves S/N by slightly more than 2x for the brighter pixels, and increasingly more than 2x as the signal decreases. Down in the deepest shadows where the signal can be only a handful of electrons, it boosts S/N by over 3x.

    So if you cannot perceive an S/N improvement with Sensor+, you probably are not looking in the right places - deep shadows. Depending on what you are shooting, near-black shadows might not even exist in your images.

    Ray

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    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
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    Re: Are you using the '+' of your P+ back ??

    Quote Originally Posted by anGy View Post
    I agree regarding the 1600 iso option only available in '+' mode. But the meaning of this post is more to find out if 200+, 400+ & 800+ mode do have any real advantage compared to 200, 400 & 800 normal mode.
    Limited files load on the mem card and (maybe) slightly better continuous burst rate are - for me - the only small + of this '+' mode.

    Before testing it I was hoping that the '+' mode would be so much better that choosing it should always be an option to look at when iso 400 or 800 must be used. Now I just remember that there is a 1600 iso option available somewhere in the menu...

    Well that's just it. The ISO 400/800 in Sensor Plus mode is significantly better in terms of noise and detail than the full rez versions. So, other than the lack of resolution, if I was shooting 400/800, I would always be using Sensor Plus.


    Steve Hendrix
    Steve Hendrix, Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
    Digital Cam: Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Sinar Authorized Reseller
    TechCam: Alpa | Cambo | Arca Swiss | Sinar Authorized Reseller

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    Re: Are you using the '+' of your P+ back ??

    Thanks for your input.
    I'll redo my homework taking these remarks into account.

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    Re: Are you using the '+' of your P+ back ??

    Apologies if this has been answered before, but has a Sensor+ patent been granted? In either case, are we likely to see a similar feature in Hasselblad or Leica MF?

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    Re: Are you using the '+' of your P+ back ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    The hardware pixel binning in Sensor+ quadruples the signal per output pixel while keeping readout noise constant. So the simplistic way of putting it is that signal to noise doubles. Will you see this effect?

    Well, if you are looking at bright elements within the image, where the S/N is already high, you may struggle to tell the difference. A S/N=100 region does not really look perceptibly different to a S/N=50 region. But the eye can easily tell the difference between an S/N=10 region and an S/N=5 region.

    In actual fact, doing a proper noise model calculation, I find that Sensor+ improves S/N by slightly more than 2x for the brighter pixels, and increasingly more than 2x as the signal decreases. Down in the deepest shadows where the signal can be only a handful of electrons, it boosts S/N by over 3x.

    So if you cannot perceive an S/N improvement with Sensor+, you probably are not looking in the right places - deep shadows. Depending on what you are shooting, near-black shadows might not even exist in your images.

    Ray
    I can't judge the numbers above, however, my real world observations support your theory 100%
    Siebel
    "In the end, it's all about the pictures"
    www.bryansiebel.com

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