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Thread: Rollei Lenses

  1. #1
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    Rollei Lenses

    Some questions:

    Where can I find the 35mm equivalents for Rollei lenses on the Hy6?

    Are there specs available on current Rollei lenses? I can't seem to find info on the Sinar or Franke web sites.

    Are there good dealers for 2nd hand Rollei lenses in US? If not in US, where?

    Thanks for any help,

    Mitchell

  2. #2
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    There are no direct equivalents because the aspect ratio is different.

    If you just consider horizontal FOV in landscape orientation, and you have a 48mm long sensor, then the ratio is 4:3-

    In other words a 30mm lens on 35mm full frame DSLR is equivalent to 40mm on a 22, 33 or 39MP MFDB.

    30:40
    37.5:50
    41.25:55
    40:60
    60:80
    67.5:90
    82.5:110
    90:120
    112.5:150
    135:180
    225:300

    I probably missed a few

  3. #3
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitchell View Post
    Are there specs available on current Rollei lenses?
    Try the AFD MTF thread in this forum

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    I don't know many Rollei dealers in the US that deal in the used dept.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  5. #5
    thsinar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Mitchell,

    when you purchase a 6008 lens you get a little book with the specs for (almost) all the available lenses.

    I have such a booklet and can make some quick snapshots of the specs of each lens mentioned, and then sent it to you, if you wish.

    But I am currently on a business trip and back home on Wednesday only.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitchell View Post
    Are there specs available on current Rollei lenses? I can't seem to find info on the Sinar or Franke web sites.
    Mitchell

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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Thanks Graham,

    Very helpful as usual.

    Thanks Guy.

    Yes Thierry I have that booklet with my 6008i, but it is pre-Auto Focus.

    Is there a current one with the AFD lenses? I will check the thread Graham mentioned.

    Come to think of it, you all 3 have a very good record of being helpful.

    Best,

    Mitchell

  7. #7
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    I know B&H sells Rollie. I will keep a eye out. I would love to find someone that sells Alpa used
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Maybe the booklet I have will tell me most of what I want to know. Weight, and apertures, for example. I would guess the auto-focus and AFD would be very close on weight and max aperture to the manual lenses. Is that true?

    Thanks,

    Mitchell

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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    If anyone's interested, the pre-auto focus lens book I have has MTFs, but no weight or size info.
    My 6008 manual has a page on lenses with weights, etc.

    Best,

    Mitchell

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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    I have a Rollei 6008 catalogue with lots of lens information. It's reasonably modern, you should be able to find most of the lenses in there.

    I also have made a spreadsheet for focal length comparisons.

    I can send you both if you'd like. PM me with your e-mail and I'll try to send them later tonight.

    Take care,
    Brad

  11. #11
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Hi Mitchell,

    For a quick online look at some specs like size, weight, minimum focus distance, filter size, etc., you can look here:
    http://www.rollei.jp/e/pd/rl60_lens.html

    The above link is not complete though, and you can get more information from the Rollei catalog, which can be downloaded from here:
    http://www.franke-heidecke.net/files...00_DE_9.06.pdf

    The above is the latest document in German, and the lens data table on page 15 is useful. An older catalog in English can be obtained form here:
    http://www.ctrades.com/catalog.pdf

    Unfortunately, none of the above information is updated with the AFD lenses, and I know of no online source for such information yet.

    David

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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitchell View Post
    Maybe the booklet I have will tell me most of what I want to know. Weight, and apertures, for example. I would guess the auto-focus and AFD would be very close on weight and max aperture to the manual lenses. Is that true?

    Thanks,

    Mitchell
    Unfortunately not true. The AFD lenses are smaller and lighter weight. However, all other characteristics like max aperture, filter size, min focus distance, etc. are the same.

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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Thanks Brad,

    That would be great. I'll send you a PM.

    Thanks David,

    Interesting that the AFD lenses are smaller and lighter. Does that mean they won't work with full sized 6X6 film?

    I really appreciate the help one gets on this forum.

    Best,

    Mitchell

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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitchell View Post
    Thanks Brad,

    That would be great. I'll send you a PM.

    Thanks David,

    Interesting that the AFD lenses are smaller and lighter. Does that mean they won't work with full sized 6X6 film?

    I really appreciate the help one gets on this forum.

    Best,

    Mitchell

    Mitchell, The AFD lens housings have been reconstructed, and the manual aperture ring has been eliminated in favor of electronic aperture selection.

    Since the image circles of the AFD lenses are the same as the non-AFD versions, they will work with 6x6 film ... although they are not recommended for film. The AFD lenses have optimizations that were made to improve their capability with digital capture that unfortunately cannot be "undone" when shooting with film.

    Whether or not you will experience any difference in practice depends on you and your shooting. There is testimony on the forums that the non-AFD lenses make almost no difference to many people with digital backs; however, there is no such testimony yet from anyone using AFD lenses with film.

    David

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Have they fixed the AF accuracy, meaning are the AF lenses actually auto-focusing properly with the digital back mounted on the body now? I know there was a problem with this a while back, at least on the Sinar version of the body.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  16. #16
    thsinar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Jack,

    there was not a "problem" with AF, but improvements were and are made with each firmware update of the Hy6: this is (was) true from the very first firmware to the next version, and will hold true with future updates. Those improvements do not necessarily mean that there was or is a "problem". They mean that we try to get the AF as accurate as possible under more difficult light conditions.

    But from the very beginning, the Hy6 AF was at least as good (and faster) as on a H body: that is my experience, when I have tried the first prototypes exactly one year ago, at least with the Schneider 2.8/80mm AFD and the older AFs I have tried and compared with my friend's H3D.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Have they fixed the AF accuracy, meaning are the AF lenses actually auto-focusing properly with the digital back mounted on the body now? I know there was a problem with this a while back, at least on the Sinar version of the body.

  17. #17
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Jack,

    there was not a "problem" with AF, but improvements were and are made with each firmware update of the Hy6: this is (was) true from the very first firmware to the next version, and will hold true with future updates. Those improvements do not necessarily mean that there was or is a "problem". They mean that we try to get the AF as accurate as possible under more difficult light conditions.

    But from the very beginning, the Hy6 AF was at least as good (and faster) as on a H body: that is my experience, when I have tried the first prototypes exactly one year ago, at least with the Schneider 2.8/80mm AFD and the older AFs I have tried and compared with my friend's H3D in low and good light.

    Best regards,
    Thierry
    Hi Thierry:

    Sorry for being thick, but can you clarify further for me: Are you are saying that all Sinar bodies with 80mm AF lenses auto-focused accurately from the start, or are you saying there have been firmware updates that fixed early problems and they all auto-focus accurately now?

    Thanks,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  18. #18
    thsinar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Jack,

    I don't know why you generalize something by saying "AF accuracy problems" with the Hy6 when we all know that ALL MF cameras struggle under certain light conditions and when the contrast is not high enough. That is what we try to improve.

    If you have a particular case or example in mind, then please bring it up clearly and we can discuss it, but don't throw something in the room which is not true. Sorry for being so direct, but I can't let this being said.

    I was saying that there was and is no AF problem, but (light/contrast) situations where the AF does not perform the same as under ideal (light/contrast) situations: I think I had been clear enough. There was nothing to fix, as you put it, but we always try to improve if the technology allows it, and in this case it does.

    What do you mean with "focus accurately"? Do you have one MF body in mind that AF-focus accurately in all situations? I don't think so. We all know the limits for AF in MF: they are set by the size of the sensors available. However, the Hy6 is using so-called "cross-sensors" which does improve the accuracy by a big step. Further to this, the Hy6 is the only MF camera having a "red-light" projecting a contrasty grid helping the AF focus to hit the target.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Hi Thierry:

    Sorry for being thick, but can you clarify further for me: Are you are saying that all Sinar bodies with 80mm AF lenses auto-focused accurately from the start, or are you saying there have been firmware updates that fixed early problems and they all auto-focus accurately now?

    Thanks,
    Last edited by thsinar; 24th June 2008 at 09:43.

  19. #19
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Okay, I'll be more direct...

    1) I tried a Sinar camera at my dealers with the 80mm lens and it would NOT af at all in dim light, only hunted continually. BUT my Mamiya AFD2 and 80mm Mamiya lens was able to lock focus instantly in that same situation. (This was a few months ago with the 75 back on it.)

    2) The same Sinar camera would not AF accurately in bright light either -- it would lock, but continually missed focus by a large margin, like 20-30 cm off at 3 or 4 meter distance. (Cannot remember if it was front or back, but was always the same.)

    3) Then in Puerto Rico, David had this same front-focus (or back) AF problem with his Sinar body and 80mm lens.

    So given your response above I am now curious if these are isolated problems with these two cameras, the 80mm lenses themselves, or are they endemic to the entire system? If they are isolated problems with these two cameras, you should be able to fix them ASAP for these two customers... However, neither has been able to get them repaired or replaced with working units and it's been a few months, so that leaves me assuming it is an endemic problem with the camera's AF abilities or possibly a problem with the manufacture of the lenses...

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  20. #20
    thsinar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Jack,

    Of course I wish you to be more direct, instead of "turning around the pot": I like to know what I am speaking about, not speculating about somebody (in this case you) telling me this or that does not work without background information and clear picture of the situation.

    This being said, I can only imagine that there was an issue with the AF mode chosen (spot, center weighted or average), and I believe this issue has been explained and addressed in David's case.

    As for your dealer where you tried this out and where you had this problem: it would be nice to know which Sinar dealer this was, that we can contact him and ask about this problem with this body, which I suspect to be an early prototype with the very early firmware: those cameras are from the o-series and should have returned to Sinar. If you feel not appropriate to post the dealer's name here, you can PM it to me, but in any case I wish to know that we can have a look at it.

    Thanks and best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Okay, I'll be more direct...

    1) I tried a Sinar camera at my dealers with the 80mm lens and it would NOT af at all in dim light, only hunted continually. BUT my Mamiya AFD2 and 80mm Mamiya lens was able to lock focus instantly in that same situation.

    2) The same Sinar camera would not AF accurately in bright light either -- it continually missed focus by a large margin. (Cannot remember if it was front or back, but was always the same.)

    3) Then in Puerto Rico, David had this same front-focus (or back) problem with his Sinar body and 80mm lens.

    So given your response above I am now curious if these are isolated problems with these two cameras, the 80mm lenses or are they endemic to the entire system? If they are isolated problems with these two cameras, you should be able to fix them ASAP for these two customers... However, neither has been able to get them repaired or replaced with working units and it's been a few months, so that leaves me assuming it is an endemic problem with the camera's AF abilities or possibly a problem with the manufacture of the lenses...

    Cheers,

  21. #21
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Jack,

    Of course I wish you to be more direct, instead of "turning around the pot": I like to know what I am speaking about, not speculating about somebody (in this case you) telling me this or that does not work without background information and clear picture of the situation.

    This being said, I can only imagine that there was an issue with the AF mode chosen (spot, center weighted or average), and I believe this issue has been explained and addressed in David's case.

    As for your dealer where you tried this out and where you had this problem: it would be nice to know which Sinar dealer this was, that we can contact him and ask about this problem with this body, which I suspect to be an early prototype with the very early firmware: those cameras are from the o-series and should have returned to Sinar. If you feel not appropriate to post the dealer's name here, you can PM it to me, but in any case I wish to know that we can have a look at it.

    Thanks and best regards,
    Thierry

    Thanks Thierry,

    I will tell the dealer to contact you directly and that you will correct his camera.

    As re David, his camera is still not working in any pattern mode, so perhaps you can contact him directly and get HIS camera fixed for him as it's been inoperable since day one -- I'm sure he'd appreciate your help!

    Finally, there is no offense intended here as I'm sure it's a native language issue, but it still sounds like some waffling on the Sinar focus issue in general. For the sake of our readers here at GetDPI, can I ask you to make a firm reply for the record: Is the Sinar camera in its current form free of AF defects?

    Thanks!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  22. #22
    thsinar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Nothing to thank, Jack.

    I am a bit surprised that this dealer did not contact us (or our distributor SBI) yet, with such an issue: it would be normal to think that they would do so when having a product not working.

    As for David: I don't think it is up to you to play the intermediary here, and I believe David is mature enough to contact me (or anybody else) if he still has a problem, which he did not do up to now.

    I don't understand the word "waffling", sorry for that, but I can imagine that you may mean that I am hiding some kind of problem: am I right? If this is the case, than my answer is "no". And I will return the question to you:

    Is the Mamiya AFD (II or III) in its actual form free of AF defects, for the sake of your readers and for the record? If you tell me yes and you believe so, than I must say that you are not serious, without any offense intended.

    Best regards,
    Thierry



    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Thanks Thierry,

    I will tell the dealer to contact you directly.

    As re David, his camera is still not working in any pattern mode, so perhaps you can contact him directly and get HIS camera fixed for him as it's been inoperable since day one -- I'm sure he'd appreciate your help!

    Finally, there is no offense intended here, but it still sounds to me like you're waffling a bit on the Sinar focus issue in general and for the sake of our readers here, I would like a firm reply from you for the record: Is the Sinar camera in its current form free of AF defects?

    Thanks!

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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Jack, you do remember correctly that I had an issue with close AF focusing with the 80mm lens (and only that lens) in San Juan. This problem manifested itself as well when close focusing manually but relying on the AF confirmation. No such problem with manual focusing "by eye" alone, i.e. focus is very precise when used that way, or when using AF at a distance of more than a few meters. I no longer have my original camera body as it went back to Sinar for a checkup. This was done at the same time I picked up my new back from Steve Hendrix and Dave McRitchie. I am now using one of Sinar's service units until mine is returned. I have not tested for this issue with the new camera as I find manual focusing quite easy thanks to the brightness of the viewfinder (make that plural since I now have the 45 degree prism as well). If memory serves me I was told that this was a firmware issue (also affecting Leaf's and Rollei's versions of the camera) which should be corrected shortly.

  24. #24
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Nothing to thank, Jack.

    I am a bit surprised that this dealer did not contact us (or our distributor SBI) yet, with such an issue: it would be normal to think that they would do so when having a product not working.

    As for David: I don't think it is up to you to play the intermediary here, and I believe David is mature enough to contact me (or anybody else) if he still has a problem, which he did not do up to now.

    I don't understand the word "waffling", sorry for that, but I can imagine that you may mean that I am hiding some kind of problem: am I right? If this is the case, than my answer is "no". And I will return the question to you:

    Is the Mamiya AFD (II or III) in its actual form free of AF defects, for the sake of your readers and for the record? If you tell me yes and you believe so, than I must say that you are not serious, without any offense intended.

    Best regards,
    Thierry
    Thierry:

    "Waffling" simply means somebody is avoiding answering a direct question. The direct question I am asking is the one I'll repeat below, and you have avoided answering it directly now for three posts. Another tactic used in "waffling" is answering a question with another question turned around so as to avoid answering the original question posed to you. You did that when you asked me, "Is the Mamiya AFD (II or III) in its actual form free of AF defects, for the sake of your readers and for the record?" In the spirit of fairness, I will happily answer: I can clearly state my Mamiya AFD2 body is free of AF defects with ALL of the AF lenses I own for it, which include the 35, 55, 80, 150, 210 and 55-110 zoom.

    So now it is your turn to answer the question directly about the Sinar: Is the Sinar camera in its current form free of AF defects? A simple yes or no will suffice.

    Thanks,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  25. #25
    Senior Member Graham Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by thsinar View Post
    Jack,
    I was saying that there was and is no AF problem
    I thought Thierry already answered this?

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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Hi Graham:

    Unfortunately his full quote was this, "I was saying that there was and is no AF problem, but (light/contrast) situations where the AF does not perform the same as under ideal (light/contrast) situations: I think I had been clear enough."

    And to my mind he wasn't clear enough, so I am asking for simpler clarification by him answering the question directly. The rest of the story is I wanted to avoid airing any dirty laundry publicly, but now it seems necessary so everybody understands my concern. The main reasons for my inquiry is that there are two people I know that personally have the Sinar camera, and neither one will AF. (I have since spoken with my dealer and he has returned the camera for a full credit so he is done.) My real issue is I think Sinar should respond to David's issue faster than they have, so was trying to help him get serviced by pushing a little here. Thierry claims there is no problem, while David is being told he needs to wait for a firmware revision -- someone has to be misinformed...

    Hope that clarifies,
    Jack
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Jack,
    Check my post above... I do have one of Sinar's service units.

    Graham,
    I believe that Jack is referring to the issue that I mentioned in my post just above. I did share this experience with Thierry as well as several other folks at Sinar. Thierry's response to me was that he almost always uses the 110 f/2 which is manual in any event and quite easy to focus. It was one of the other support people at Sinar who told me that this was a firmware issue soon to be corrected.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    And my concern is that Thierry claims there is no problem and David's being told he needs to wait for a firmware revision -- the two answers are in conflict: You can't have one hand telling you all is okay while the other tells you it's a firmware glitch. Somebody is wrong and meanwhile David is stuck in middle...
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  29. #29
    thsinar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Jack,

    So "waffling" means "hiding" and "lying" about a fact: let's put it clearly. That is a serious accusation, Jack.

    I have actually answered your question, and I have even answered it 2 times, very clearly: there is no "problem" like you like to put it and want it to be understood by others. AF is NOT perfect, being it with the Hy6 (Leaf, AFi, Rolleiflex Hy6 or Sinar Hy6), with the H series, with the Mamiya AF(D) II or III, or any other medium format AF system.

    I have however registered your clear statement that you find your AF perfect. I guess that I can't believe what you are saying, sorry to say it. But it is your statement, not mine. And let me tell you that I have used a few Mamiya AFD's as well in my professional life, the last time being 3 weeks ago: that was not my experience, not at all.

    So I will say it and answer again your question: no, the AF is not perfect in all situations with the Hy6, in the contrary of your own Mamiya AFD. But it does its "job" in most situations, and rather in a fast and accurate way. that is my clear statement. I hope it is clear.

    But let me come back to the Hy6, which you seem to not know perfectly. You have seen one person using it, and you speak about your own experience at a dealer's place. I have told you that the issue with David has been explained and it does seem to me that this is solved. If it is not the case, then David would certainly come back to me.
    Please don't forget to tell your dealer to contact me, for the issue you have experienced, failing what I shall allow myself to come back to you to ask you more details: you would certainly agree that I have to go behind this issue seriously.

    Jack: I think you don't know me by now. I am not used to "avoid" answering nor going to the point, not even in public and in front of thousands of readers. I think I have proven this up to know and don't have to justify myself in front of you. So please leave your comments like "waffling" aside. It would be more appropriate to not use a dictatorial tone when asking me to answer: I really don't need such and have better to do if addressed this way. I think respect in a public forum which you are the co-owner of would be more appropriate and does not serve anybody.

    Thanks for your understanding,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Thierry:

    "Waffling" simply means somebody is avoiding answering a direct question. The direct question I am asking is the one I'll repeat below, and you have avoided answering it directly now for three posts. Another tactic used in "waffling" is answering a question with another question turned around so as to avoid answering the original question posed to you. You did that when you asked me, "Is the Mamiya AFD (II or III) in its actual form free of AF defects, for the sake of your readers and for the record?" In the spirit of fairness, I will happily answer: I can clearly state my Mamiya AFD2 body is free of AF defects with ALL of the AF lenses I own for it, which include the 35, 55, 80, 150, 210 and 55-110 zoom.

    So now it is your turn to answer the question directly about the Sinar: Is the Sinar camera in its current form free of AF defects? A simple yes or no will suffice.

    Thanks,

  30. #30
    thsinar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Jack,

    why do you continue? May I ask not to be wrongly quoted?:

    I have never said that "all is okay". Please re-read my answer(s).

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    And my concern is that Thierry claims there is no problem and David's being told he needs to wait for a firmware revision -- the two answers are in conflict: You can't have one hand telling you all is okay while the other tells you it's a firmware glitch. Somebody is wrong and meanwhile David is stuck in middle...

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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Thierry: "Waffling" does not mean "lying". It normally refers to "not making up ones mind" or making statements that might seem to change with varying conditions or audiences.

    It's none of my business and I apologize for stepping in, but I wanted to be sure you knew that the term was not suggesting something harsh as you may have taken it.

    To be honest, it's a word that is often used in reference to politicians or others stuck in an awkward position as they try to state their case without stepping on their own team.

    Best regards,

    Dale

  32. #32
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Thank you Dale.


    Thierry, just want to add that this is a public forum and I am known for being direct when the situation demands it; I will always call things as I see them. So if you can't stand the heat, you'd better stay out of my kitchen...


    Now to this very puzzling comment by you:

    Jack,

    why do you continue? May I ask not to be wrongly quoted?:

    I have never said that "all is okay". Please re-read my answer(s).

    Best regards,
    Thierry
    So, you never said "All is okay" -- except that a few posts earlier you clearly wrote and I quote, bold my edit:

    I was saying that there was and is no AF problem, but (light/contrast) situations where the AF does not perform the same as under ideal (light/contrast) situations: I think I had been clear enough.
    So if we are to understand you, you are claiming there is and never was any AF problem, but all is NOT okay with the AF? Perhaps you could clarify that further for us?


    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  33. #33
    thsinar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Jack,

    If you come up and mention such in a public forum, you rather come to the point and not just throw something in. Another way, if you don't want "airing publicly laundry", would be to PM me: you certainly knew that by reading your initial post I would ask you more for "details" and to be specific: I am sorry, but I won't ever let things stand if they are not the full story or given with all details.

    Concerning the dealer you speak about: I am not aware of any dealer having returned a camera, yet. That means in clear that this dealer won't contact me concerning his issue, right?

    Thanks to clarify,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    The rest of the story is I wanted to avoid airing any dirty laundry publicly, but now it seems necessary so everybody understands my concern. The main reasons for my inquiry is that there are two people I know that personally have the Sinar camera, and neither one will AF. (I have since spoken with my dealer and he has returned the camera for a full credit so he is done.) My real issue is I think Sinar should respond to David's issue faster than they have, so was trying to help him get serviced by pushing a little here. Thierry claims there is no problem, while David is being told he needs to wait for a firmware revision -- someone has to be misinformed...

    Hope that clarifies,

  34. #34
    thsinar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Alright, understood.

    In any case, and knowing the meaning now, I was not "waffling".

    Thanks Dale,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    Thierry: "Waffling" does not mean "lying". It normally refers to "not making up ones mind" or making statements that might seem to change with varying conditions or audiences.

    It's none of my business and I apologize for stepping in, but I wanted to be sure you knew that the term was not suggesting something harsh as you may have taken it.

    To be honest, it's a word that is often used in reference to politicians or others stuck in an awkward position as they try to state their case without stepping on their own team.

    Best regards,

    Dale

  35. #35
    thsinar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Jack,

    Then we are 2 to be direct and calling things by their name, when the situation demands it.
    I can easily take things BUT, they have to be the whole story and with facts: your initial and following posts do suggest that the Hy6 AF does not work, which is simply and purely wrong. I am sorry, but yes, I cannot take and stand this.

    Do I understand right that you wish me to stay away from this forum? I am not sure again if I understand it right, but making such a comment rather shows that you cannot take the heat.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Thank you Dale.

    Thierry, just want to add that this is a public forum and I am known for being direct when the situation demands it; I will always call things as I see them. Frankly, if you can't stand the heat, you'd better stay out of my kitchen...

    Cheers,

  36. #36
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Thierry, what I'm "asking" of you is an answer that isn't confusing, that is all. I repeat myself, but need to do so because you have not yet clarified: you have now in this thread claimed both that there is and never was any AF problem, yet at the same time claim all is NOT okay with the AF. That sounds somewhat contradictory and perhaps you'd like to clear it up. Or not.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    The forum is great. I thank Jack and Guy for it's existence and for their many contributions.

    Thierry is a great asset to the forum. I would be very sorry to see him leave.

    I watch these squabbles gather form, in small increments of misunderstanding, like some inevitable natural phenomena. The internet, absent of gesture, voice and tone, and so public, hurries the storm.

    Best,

    Mitchell

  38. #38
    thsinar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Jack,

    I think you understood very well, what I was writing and claiming.
    The AF works and it works pretty well: I state it again.

    But there are situations where it doesn't work as well: I state it again as well. And it is unfair from you to suggest that I have said there is no issue at all: I have said in my very first post and answer to you, that there are situations where the AF struggles.

    And I state as well again that ALL AF systems do have situations where they struggle, despite of your claim of the contrary.

    What you are doing is using the word "problem" to make believe that the whole AF with this camera is not working. I can quote you as well:

    "are the AF lenses actually auto-focusing properly with the digital back mounted on the body now?"

    Which in other words is suggesting that it does not: that is absolutely wrong and you cannot write this without expecting a reaction from my side.

    This being said, I shall repeat myself once and a last time: yes, we are working on improving the AF further. Will it ever be perfect? I don't know this. But I also know that other brands are facing the same.

    Best regards,
    Thierry

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Now to this very puzzling comment by you:

    So, you never said "All is okay" -- except that a few posts earlier you clearly wrote and I quote, bold my edit:

    So if we are to understand you, you are claiming there is and never was any AF problem, but all is NOT okay with the AF? Perhaps you could clarify that further for us?


    Cheers,

  39. #39
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Okay, thank you for clearing that up. I now understand what the meaning of your comments were.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  40. #40
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitchell View Post
    Thierry is a great asset to the forum. I would be very sorry to see him leave.
    Ditto that Mitchell and it's a bit painful to see two people who I consider friends going at it...

  41. #41
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    It's all good David. We both misunderstood and that got each other's hackles up a bit. I think possibly getting behind in reading current posts was involved too... At any rate Thierry and I are big boys so we can chalk it up to language differences and move forward. What's important is we have the same goals of providing accurate information to our friends and customers.

    So back to the topic of the thread, how is the AF performing on your loaner body -- properly I assume?
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  42. #42
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Re: auto focus Hy6 and Sinar-M

    I am using both systems and as I was told by Sinar people in Switzerland the Hy6 's AF is based on the proven solutions first introduced on the M-System. I find their behavior pretty similar in the interpretation of the contrast and brightness situations. The Hy6 and the Sinar-M AF has relative difficulty to auto-focus when the motif lacks contrast.

    The Hy6 behaves the same in the low contrast situation than my Sinar-M. Sometime I have to put a bright yellow ruler on a painting I copy to let the AF sensor see the plane of the surface I am trying to focus on. It never happens in bright environment, only when I use polarizers on my lights and the lens. The red illumination light helps and definitely my Hy6 focuses better than the "M" when the light is bad. In my amateur experience the red light helps only on the distances between 2-5 meters, in close up and dim situations IMO one shall rely on the manual focus more, at the same time both systems perform auto-focusing very easily when the AF extension tubes are used and the motif fills the bigger part of the image.

    As you all the pros on this forum know than NO current MF cameras utilize AF systems on par with a Canon/Nikon's and your expectations should be low. I cannot talk about new Hasselblads, but I have access to Mamiyas and Contaxes and a Rollei 6008 AF with different backs and tested auto focus with all of them. No one is perfect. And I need this AF thing because I have very bad case of astigmatism on both eyes.
    I think than ether your expectations were a bit unrealistic or the camera was faulty. I live in the part of the world where the dealer support in very rudimentary, we cannot send the cameras for check ups every week and we all, who use the MFD, tend to get used to the camera first, spend several weeks with it to learn it, to know its limitations and only than jump to the conclusions.

    I see a lot of excitement on this forum, people see the quality of the MFD and do not want to hear about limitations and quirks and accept them.

    Kind regards
    Yevgeny

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Thank you for this clarification Yevgeny! The low-light/low-contrast performance was certainly understandable, but the front-focusing in good light was not. So yes, I suspect that the camera I tested and David's -- or their lenses -- were faulty.

    Moreover, I agree that NO AF system is perfect, just that some tend to work better than others in certain situations. And for sure, no MF camera yet matches Canon or Nikon AF abilities yet, and I'm sure we're a few generations away from that kind of performance.

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    At Jack's suggestion I just performed the same test with my loaner camera that gave me problems with my own. I was glad to find that this camera does not have the same front focusing issue that mine did. Here's the image of my test subject and the crop. Focus on the nose...these are unsharpened.

  45. #45
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Good news David, glad your issue is resolved!

    ,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  46. #46
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Okay I want the doll. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Okay I want the doll. LOL
    I refuse to be drawn in to any sheep jokes

  48. #48
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    A few places to check for used Rollei lenses in the US:
    www.ctrades.com
    www.camerawest.com
    www.tamarkin.com
    www.keh.com (of course)
    www.fotocare.com (you will have to call them)
    www.kurlandphoto.com
    and www.adorama.com
    Kurland photo generally has the most, but they are pretty expensive. Camera West used to have a lot with decent prices. KEH generally has the best prices, but not as much stuff as they used to. Fotocare had a decent number of them, but they don't list their stuff online. It is better checked out in person. Adorama occasionally has some 6000 series stuff...Ctrades specializes in grey market new Rollei stuff, but they have some used stuff as well.

  49. #49
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    Re: Rollei Lenses

    Thanks Stuart,

    I knew about some, but not all of these.

    Best,

    Mitchell

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