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Thread: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

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    210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Halo,

    I have been using 150mm for beauty work with P65+ and I found the DOF is very narrow. I dont like to crop and my usual composition is head and shoulder, some only face and neck.

    If the model is facing 45 degree left or right, I cant get both eyes sharp ( the eyes further from the camera is out of focus). Even slight angle will make the face out of focus. I shoot at F11-16 and still I have this problem

    I am thinking to get 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF. With the minimum distance of 2 and 3M, will i be able to get close enough for face close up without cropping? Will the longer focusing distance improve DOF? Which one should I get?

    I want the lens to give me nice reach and DOF. great sharpess, color rendition, 3D, and contrast.

    Thanks,
    Dan Santoso

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    DOF is affected by focal lenght, aperture and distance to subject. You have to play with these to get the DOF you want.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Well, the longer the lens, the smaller DOF - so if 150mm doesn't work, things are worse with 200+... You have to go the other direction, 110/120 or so should help. Of course different view then.

    Also: DOF is not enough viewing 100% on screen? Or in print of the size needed? That's a difference too.

    Andreas

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    If you can focus manually and like shooting wide open: get a 200 F2,8 APO manual focus. Nothing else matches the smootness of that lens.

  5. #5
    krb
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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    Halo,

    I have been using 150mm for beauty work with P65+ and I found the DOF is very narrow. I dont like to crop and my usual composition is head and shoulder, some only face and neck.

    If the model is facing 45 degree left or right, I cant get both eyes sharp ( the eyes further from the camera is out of focus). Even slight angle will make the face out of focus. I shoot at F11-16 and still I have this problem
    150mm and f/11 at 2 meters should be giving enough DOF for this. Are you sure that the lens is actually foucsing on the model and not focusing on a point in front of the model? Are you sure that the aperture is stopping down when taking the shot?

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Both shot with the 150D at F11 on a P40+ . So yes i am a touch further back than you would be with a P65. These also have negative clarity on them . This lens is brittle sharp





    Now any closer i would most likely get in some DOF issues. I did shoot these handheld. Focused on her eye and recomposed
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    DOF is affected by focal lenght, aperture and distance to subject. You have to play with these to get the DOF you want.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmiddi View Post
    Well, the longer the lens, the smaller DOF - so if 150mm doesn't work, things are worse with 200+... You have to go the other direction, 110/120 or so should help. Of course different view then.
    My understanding is different, so please correct me if I should be wrong:

    Whether you use a 55mm or 200mm,
    if you frame the subject to occupy the same space on the focusing screen,
    then the depth of field is the same [at the same aperture, of course].

    Same scale = same depth of field

  8. #8
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Both of the shots I just posted in the "Fun with MF Images" thread... tight headshots... were with the 210AF ULD at very close to min focus distance. At that distance, the crop is quite tight and DoF is pretty narrow, but the look is nice.

    ETA: Mamiya AFD III / Aptus II 6

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    My understanding is different, so please correct me if I should be wrong:

    Whether you use a 55mm or 200mm,
    if you frame the subject to occupy the same space on the focusing screen,
    then the depth of field is the same [at the same aperture, of course].

    Same scale = same depth of field

    I don't know the theory/physics behind it. Based on what you say, using a longer focal length will not solve your problem.


    For a given focal length and aperture, the closer you get to the subject, the shallower the DOF. So, you have to distance yourself from the subject or use a smaller focal length (not flattering for portraits). In addition, for a given aperture, increasing magnification (greater focal length) will decrease your DOF.

    My suggestion: crop in post.

    With that said, at f11 you shouldn't have that narrow of a DOF.

  10. #10
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post

    With that said, at f11 you shouldn't have that narrow of a DOF.
    You'd think so... but in MF work, I've seen F11 be quite narrow if you're near to minimum focus distance. You would be surprised at how F11 doesn't get you much.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    My understanding is that by shooting further from the model the DOF is bigger. Longer lens will give me this. Is this correct?

    Here is a sample at F14. The left eyes is out of focus. I dont use manual focus, maybe I should start practice using it.


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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelby Lewis View Post
    You'd think so... but in MF work, I've seen F11 be quite narrow if you're near to minimum focus distance. You would be surprised at how F11 doesn't get you much.

    "Step away from the subject"

    I didn't do any extreme testing, so I guess it's possible. That's why I suggested to move back a little and then crop in post if he wants a tight shot.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    My understanding is different, so please correct me if I should be wrong:

    Whether you use a 55mm or 200mm,
    if you frame the subject to occupy the same space on the focusing screen,
    then the depth of field is the same [at the same aperture, of course].

    Same scale = same depth of field
    Yep, you're right. I had never heard this so I drew the ray diagram and, sure enough, the telephoto compression (the angle between the near and far points is less with a longer lens) is almost exactly counterbalanced by the longer lens to sensor distance.

    Cool!

    Matt

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    I have never heard of this before. So the only solution is step back and crop? 210 and 300 wont solve it?


    Thanks

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Seems a focusing issue. The foreground portions look to be more in-focus than the subject target ... the eyes,

    Check your camera/lens on a tripod at close focusing distance for front focusing by shooting a ruler set on a 45 angle away from the camera ... the focus point should be the sharpest item, and DOF acceptable sharpness should be approx. 1/3 front 2/3 back ...

    -Marc

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    I have never heard of this before. So the only solution is step back and crop? 210 and 300 wont solve it?


    Thanks
    Longer focal length alone will not solve the problem. I would increase aperture first. Next step would be to go shorter focal length. If those don't help, then I would move further and crop. Again, since other people are getting good results, there is something else at play.

  17. #17
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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    the focus point should be the sharpest item, and DOF acceptable sharpness should be approx. 1/3 front 2/3 back ...
    While the 1/3 - 2/3 guideline has been around for a long time, it is a gross oversimplification that is often incorrect.

    A 150mm lens on a 645 focused 2 meters away the DOF will be close to a 50/50 split front and back. You would have to focus the lens 10 meters away to get a 1/3 - 2/3 split. At hyperfocal distance the rear DOF will be infinite so you can't really say what the split will be, except that it is much larger than 2/3.

  18. #18
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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    I have never heard of this before. So the only solution is step back and crop? 210 and 300 wont solve it?


    Thanks
    When you change the distance to the subject you are changing the perspective.

    The process should be:

    - Choose the distance that gives the perspective you want.
    - Choose the focal length that gives the framing you want at that distance.
    - Choose the aperture that gives you the DOF you want at that distance and focal length.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by BJNY View Post
    My understanding is different, so please correct me if I should be wrong:

    Whether you use a 55mm or 200mm,
    if you frame the subject to occupy the same space on the focusing screen,
    then the depth of field is the same [at the same aperture, of course].

    Same scale = same depth of field
    I'm been kicked out of forums for trying to explain this to nonbelievers. Some people just don't get it.

    But everything out of focus will look very different, and the background will be magnified, making it LOOK more out of focus.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Also you will see some distortion as well with the shorter glass. I personally like the longer lenses on people for the compression alone. I like to see the noses shrink more. Plus you get nicer falloff on the DOF.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Also you will see some distortion as well with the shorter glass. I personally like the longer lenses on people for the compression alone. I like to see the noses shrink more. Plus you get nicer falloff on the DOF.
    Here's a good comparison: http://www.stepheneastwood.com/tutor...tion/index.htm

    Note that focal lengths are 35mm so you would need to adjust for medium format.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Nice results. I'm in the league in 35mm format 100mm or more. Just looks better
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by gsking View Post
    I'm been kicked out of forums for trying to explain this to nonbelievers. Some people just don't get it.

    But everything out of focus will look very different, and the background will be magnified, making it LOOK more out of focus.
    Perhaps an easier way to clarify for non-believers is to reference Motion Photography where you can see it demonstrated all in one framing. The technique of Zooming the background while the subject remains the same size shows that the DOF remains the same.

    One of the first to employ this "dolly zoom" was Alfred Hitchcock in the 1940 Gothic mystery "Rebecca" ... his first Hollywood production ... where it was used to an unsettling emotional effect when Rebecca suddenly realizes the answer to the hidden mystery, and the background zooms up behind her while she remains the same size.

    This perspective distortion effect was first attributed to second-unit cameraman Irmin Roberts, and was more famously used by Hitchcock in the 1958 film "Vertigo" ... and afterwards also became known as the "Vertigo Effect" for obvious reasons.

    Marc

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by gsking View Post
    I'm been kicked out of forums for trying to explain this to nonbelievers. Some people just don't get it.

    But everything out of focus will look very different, and the background will be magnified, making it LOOK more out of focus.
    Gregory, no doubt you are referring to your tour of duty in the Great DOF War over on photo.net MF forum a few weeks back: http://photo.net/medium-format-photo...-forum/00Y2tN?
    Thankfully, people like you and I prevailed.

    To the OP: you'll never see a better explanation of all the nuances surrounding DOF than this:
    http://toothwalker.org/optics/dof.html

    You do have the right idea that a longer distance from the subject will increase DOF. But if you counterbalance that by using a longer focal length lens (at the same f-stop) to make the image the same size within the frame, then that increase is exactly neutered, and you're back to where you started. Gregory is right about the background looking more oof with the longer lens, but your concern is not the background, it's the 2nd eye of the subject. The only solutions therefore are:
    1) stop down the lens more, or
    2) move further back and crop in, or
    3) stay where you are, use a shorter focal length lens, and crop in.

    Ray

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    "To the OP: you'll never see a better explanation of all the nuances surrounding DOF than this:
    http://toothwalker.org/optics/dof.html"

    Excellent link.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Thanks guys. I will check with my local dealer next week to see if my DF has front focusing. I suspect the focus is not accurate because most of my fashion's image has the clothes as the sharpest part (full body with 80mm).

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by krb View Post
    Here's a good comparison: http://www.stepheneastwood.com/tutor...tion/index.htm

    Note that focal lengths are 35mm so you would need to adjust for medium format.

    200mm is still much better than 100mm. I think this could be a reason to get the 300MM.

    Does anyone has experience about this lens? Is it better than the 210 IF?

    Thanks

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    210 f4 ULD AF and 300 f4.5 APO AF are both excellent lenses. On par the 300 APO is probably a bit better, but not hugely. Note there is some sample variation with the 300's when shot wide open, so be sure to test them to confirm you have a copy you're happy with -- a good one is as laser sharp wide open as it is stopped down.
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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/file...896-edit-2.jpg

    This was the 300 mm wide open - hand held. Mine is as sharp wide open as at any other aperture.
    Bill

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Just when i thought I had a handle on these concepts I find that maybe I don't. As long as we seem to have some experts in this post... doesn't compression, or foreshortening, or whatever you want to call it come into play in focal length selection. I'm under the impression it does... the images I take with, say the 110/2 Hassy are just about perfect (to my eye) for the OP's shot. I would not have thought that using a 300mm lens from a longer distance could achieve the same "look"... irrespective of DOF considerations. If I'm wrong I'd love to be educated.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Compression, which is a component of perspective, comes from shooting position only. The fact you generally are further back to fill the frame with a longer lens compared to a shorter lens, is what leads folks to believe it's focal length based. However, if you shoot a portrait from 10 feet with a 300, then from the same spot take one with a 50 and crop the 50 face ~6x to match the 300's framing, you'll find the results are identical on compression (perspective) and only differ on net detail.
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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Thanks Jack... I guess I got this impression because I always try to fill the frame.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Compression, which is a component of perspective, comes from shooting position only. The fact you generally are further back to fill the frame with a longer lens compared to a shorter lens, is what leads folks to believe it's focal length based. However, if you shoot a portrait from 10 feet with a 300, then from the same spot take one with a 50 and crop the 50 face ~6x to match the 300's framing, you'll find the results are identical on compression (perspective) and only differ on net detail.
    Agree but disagree. You are certainly bringing the background in more play with a longer lens as it gives the impression the mountain lets say is right behind you as it compresses the foreground and background. I use a 300 on portraits for this very reason is to suck in the background. Now i may have the technical names wrong but that is compression. Just like shrinking a long nose down with a longer lens.

    I used that shot above as that model has a long nose and I had a long talk with her as she continues on as a model how to not show that with her angles. If I had it my way i would have went with a 300mm to compress it even more. I'm going by visual impression here
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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Guy, you will get the exact same amount "compression" if you shoot with your 300 and 55 from the same spot and crop the 55 frame to match the 300's. Try it and you'll see you will have the exact same background positioning as well as the same amount of compression. The only difference will be total file detail.

    What is different is that we never do that in practice --- as a practical matter we choose our focal length based on our desired framing from our desired shooting position. Thus we create the general assumption for ourselves that longer lenses compress, when in fact it is ONLY the longer shooting distance that affects compression (as well as all other aspects of perspective).
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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    I do understand what you are saying and this debate has gone on for years. You are correct but we not only chose a lens for focal length but maybe the correct word here is perspective or distortion. Maybe better said a longer lens flattens more given the same framing. Maybe the word I am looking for is distortion
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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Both shot with the 150D at F11 on a P40+ . So yes i am a touch further back than you would be with a P65. These also have negative clarity on them . This lens is brittle sharp

    Now any closer i would most likely get in some DOF issues. I did shoot these handheld. Focused on her eye and recomposed
    Guy,

    What lights did you use here, were they the Elinchrom Ranger Quadra set?
    Cheers, Johnny

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    No they were the BXRI 500 units. I had three going and one failed so I think both of these are only two lights. Used a small Octa and a 27 inch Deep throat.

    I only had 8ft ceilings and was very limited on placement. They are two lights otherwise i would have had a rim light on our right side. But the Quadra's would have worked just as well. Maybe add a stop ISO. My P40+ will do a great ISO 200. These were at ISO 100.

    Honestly I would love to dump all the BXRI stuff and go with more Quadra's. I have two setups but would love another.

    I'm actually trying to decide what to do on the repair of the BXRI its a 300 dollar main board. New units are around 580 dollars. Dilemma
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    I have a similar setup, P1-AF with a P40+.

    I Have been using 4 AB B1600's, but need portability now. My focus is on commercial product work and the B1600's managed correctly have worked well. I am thinking of going with two Quadra packs and four lights for the mobility. In your judgment is this a sound path? I have not used the Quadra's and want a user opinion.
    Cheers, Johnny

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Johnny the Quadras are really great for portability no question. The heads are delicate though and you need the elinchrom adapters for the soft boxes. So if your careful it will work out great. Obviously you will be missing great modeling lights although the LED is pretty good just not 150 watts good if you know what I mean. Actually going with 2 packs and 4 heads sounds good but power maybe short . I would go 3 packs and 4 heads if you could. All this will fit in a small roller too which you can airline check easily. I have a combination and that is something worth thinking about since the Skyports work with both is get one or two BXRI and replace modeling with 150 watt units than use Quadra in combination like I do with 2 packs and two heads maybe just get a extra quadra head than. Be cheaper route to take and you have AC and DC power combination.
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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Guy, thank you, this gives me something to work with.
    Cheers, Johnny

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    You are correct but we not only chose a lens for focal length but maybe the correct word here is perspective or distortion. Maybe better said a longer lens flattens more given the same framing. Maybe the word I am looking for is distortion
    Unfortunately it's not semantics, the lens' focal length does not matter one iota for compression or any other aspect of perspective. It's the longer shooting position that achieve's perspective compression, period.

    I would agree that secondarily, a longer lens provides us with a more desirable framing at -- and actually forces us to use -- that longer shooting distance, so the result from using it is more compression.

    But I want to make sure folks understand perspective is not a property of the lens chosen, rather only a function of shooting position regardless of lens mounted, that determines all aspects of "perspective".

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Left-brainers think analytically in terms of exact science. Right-brainers think intuitively about the application of the science.

    A left-brainer will use his analytical mind to deduce that there is no difference between focal lengths and it's the camera position alone that alters perspective. But a right-brainer thinks in terms of application and a change in focal length coincides with a change in camera position in order to maintain the same framing of the subject. Both are basically saying the same thing in different ways.

    Perspective is about more than just the science behind the hardware because it's also about the psychology of the viewer that is interpreting the visual information. Right-brainers are more apt to understand the psychological effect that focal length and camera position has on the viewer because there isn't much science available and so it's still an intuitive process. However, the science is catching up and there are studies and books written which try to scientifically explain perspective in art.

    Our eyes and minds play tricks on us. A good example might be how the light from a flouerescent source appears relatively neutral to our eye but render green when captured at a daylight color balance. The light really is green, but our eyes and minds turn it neutral. Another example is that most people are utilizing two eyes to view a photograph yet they're only really perceiving one image. The single image is sometimes referred to as the "ego center." The lens axis plane can be thought of as the equivalent to a human's line of site while the film/sensor could be considered the ego center of the camera. The basic point I'm trying to make is that there are psychological factors with how the viewer will perceive perspective that might not yet be easily explained analytically through current science. Yet, many right-brainers already understand them intuitively and that's why they will associate a change in focal length with a change in perspective and the ability to manipulate perceptions of the viewer.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Seems like I'm not the only one who is a bit confused on this issue. I understand exactly what Jack is saying but thought that despite this there would still be some facial compression, i.e. a different look to the image. i will try this myself when I have some time. Having said that I do like the look of portraits taken with longer lenses. Some of my personal best head shots were taken with a 400 2.8 when I was shooting Canon.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    I'll jump in here and offer an opinion. I use two Quadra packs with 4 heads ... one head stays mounted to a light stick with a Beauty dish ... the other three heads are used to light people with one pack as a background source. I got this kit knowing the limitations of the Quadra system. I only use it for lighter duty as a much better alternative to using multiple speed-lights ... mostly people shooting on location. It would not even enter my mind to use it for any major commercial product job.

    If you are getting into an area requiring 3 battery packs or 2 packs and a mono head ... I'd seriously look at the new Hensel Porty L Lithium 1200 pack and 3 or 4 Mini P heads. It offers radio control with either Hensel Strobe Wizard or Profoto Air ... both of which provide full channeled control from the camera (the Profoto Air works over greater distances than the Skyport or Strobe Wizard). Hensel has a very robust modifier mount second only to Profoto, and a full array of modifiers including one of the best Beauty Dishes I've ever used.

    The Quadra mount is limited, and the EL adapter is is not robust enough to safely support any major modifier ... and the modeling lights are anemic. I'd especially recommend looking at the Hensel route if you are doing product work where you may need more DOF from a key light. If additional mono lights are needed later you can choose from either Hensel or Profoto since the Porty responds to both radio systems. An AC insert is available to turn the Porty into a studio pack.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
    Yet, many right-brainers already understand them intuitively and that's why they will associate a change in focal length with a change in perspective and the ability to manipulate perceptions of the viewer.
    I don't think this has any direct relationship to right brain or left brain. A person either understands how this is working or they don't. People who misunderstand the relationship between focal length and perspective are likely to be confused once the camera behind the lens becomes a factor. Given the same framing of the subject, a 100mm lens will give very different perspective on a 645 vs on 35mm vs on a digital crop camera. People who do not understand that the perspective changed because of the distance are likely to attribute the difference to some sort of "magic" in the size of the sensor.

    There's a fine line between intuition and superstition.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by krb View Post
    I don't think this has any direct relationship to right brain or left brain. A person either understands how this is working or they don't. People who misunderstand the relationship between focal length and perspective are likely to be confused once the camera behind the lens becomes a factor. Given the same framing of the subject, a 100mm lens will give very different perspective on a 645 vs on 35mm vs on a digital crop camera. People who do not understand that the perspective changed because of the distance are likely to attribute the difference to some sort of "magic" in the size of the sensor.
    A left-brain type of person would probably say that the distance from the subject is what effects perspective rather than focal length. This is true in terms of science.

    A change in focal length will usually coincide with a change in distance from the subject in order to fill the frame. This leads a right-brain person to conclude that a change in focal length is the same as a change in perspective. This is true in terms of the the application of the science.

    Both of them are basically correct at the same time, but just describing things differently.

    Intuition is not the same as superstition because it is a way of thinking that allows right-brain people to solve a problem backwards. They will often know the correct answer to a question but not know how they came to the conclusion. Then they will have to backtrack to find out how they came up with the correct answer.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Mike M, no offense, but your intuition on this is incorrect and you are adding confusion instead of helping -- 3D > 2D perspective mapping is a product of physical science and nothing else.

    You can prove this to yourself by shooting the same subject from the same position with two different focals and crop the wider one to match the longer one -- the two resulting images will have IDENTICAL perspective, end of story.
    Jack
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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Mike M, no offense, but your intuition on this is incorrect and you are adding confusion instead of helping -- 3D > 2D perspective mapping is a product of physical science and nothing else.

    You can prove this to yourself by shooting the same subject from the same position with two different focals and crop the wider one to match the longer one -- the two resulting images will have IDENTICAL perspective, end of story.
    Yes, you're 1000% right in terms of the science. I've already said that is correct in my previous posts. It's kindergarten type of science.

    But photographers don't usually change focal lengths and remain in the same position in application. They usually change their position in relationship to the subject in order to fill the frame. Right brained people "think" in terms of application, so this leads them to conclude that a change in focal length is the same as a change in perspective. They are CORRECT in terms of how the science applies to technique in photography because whenever they change focal lengths they also change the distance to the subject. The two go hand-in-hand.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Actually, the science is clear, changing focal length or cropping will change perspective--you can even look that up in the Focal Encyclopedia of Photography. Changing subject distance also changes perspective, or to be more exact, linear perspective. Perspective is simply the appearance of depth in an image.

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    Re: 210 AF IF or 300 APO AF IF for beauty work

    Quote Originally Posted by Hikari View Post
    Actually, the science is clear, changing focal length or cropping will change perspective--you can even look that up in the Focal Encyclopedia of Photography. Changing subject distance also changes perspective, or to be more exact, linear perspective. Perspective is simply the appearance of depth in an image.
    Perspective is a big thing...there are a lot of elements involved in it. But what Jack is saying is correct for the type of perspective he is talking about.

    BTW - the appearance of depth within in image is how draftsman relate to perspective. But photographers use the same word to describe different things than what a draftsman might associate with the word. For example, a painter might use bluish/cooler tones to paint objects that are supposed to appear at far distances in a painting and he might say his choice of color is related to perspective. This is because cool tones in the background of a painting increase the sense of depth that a viewer perceives in a painting. But most photographers aren't even familiar with that concept because perspective in terms of photographic application generally revolves around other elements related to perspective that don't just have to do with a sense of depth.
    Last edited by Mike M; 2nd March 2011 at 19:56. Reason: just cuz

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