Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 30 of 30

Thread: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    159
    Post Thanks / Like

    IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    All right. . .after seeing the sample shots from the IQ180, I've started considering the replacement of my venerable P65+. My question is this -- is there ultimately any difference at all between the IQ of the 180 and the Leaf? They're using identical sensors with no AA filters, and 16-bit color-depth, so I am under the impression that the files, themselves, will be identical.

    Now, I do realize that the IQ180 has all sorts of whiz-bang features, and the most awesomest LCD ever made, and such, but aside from these features, is there really anything to justify the extra $14k price premium?

    Has anyone directly compared an IQ180 with the APTUS-II 12? Are there actually any differences in DR, noise, sharpness, and or color rendition?

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA
    Posts
    2,272
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Is the price difference so great if you're trading in a P65+?

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    159
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    The price difference is quite substantial. To trade in my P65+ for an APTUS II 12, it's less than $6k. For the IQ180, I'm looking at closer to $15k. To me, this is a pretty substantial difference.

  4. #4
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA
    Posts
    2,272
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    By "so great," I was referring to your originally mention difference of $14k; I wasn't suggesting that the cost of either upgrade wasn't a lot of money.

  5. #5
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    I think it's safe to assume that Phase is keeping three distinct product lines; one line without all the bells and whistles but with the current sensors in the Leaf backs; and then another line with some bells and whistles, but not all of the latest sensors in the P series backs; then a more top line with bells and whistles and current sensors in the IQ backs. My guess is longer term the P series will drop out when the 80MP sensor becomes the entry-level chip, leaving the basic Leaf line and the bells and whistles IQ line as your choices.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  6. #6
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA
    Posts
    2,272
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    So Jack, will that make the P45+ a collector's item?

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Posts
    484
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    So Jack, will that make the P45+ a collector's item?
    If the long-exposure capability in the upcoming and future generations of backs continues to be limited to a minute or so, then I wouldn't be at all surprised if this does happen...

    Although a birdie has told me there is new firmware being tested that may extend this out to several minutes, and if it works, then who knows?

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    159
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I think it's safe to assume that Phase is keeping three distinct product lines; one line without all the bells and whistles but with the current sensors in the Leaf backs; and then another line with some bells and whistles, but not all of the latest sensors in the P series backs; then a more top line with bells and whistles and current sensors in the IQ backs. My guess is longer term the P series will drop out when the 80MP sensor becomes the entry-level chip, leaving the basic Leaf line and the bells and whistles IQ line as your choices.

    So, you're inferring, as well, that the Aptus II 12 is, by image quality standards, the same as the IQ180, due to the fact that it has the same sensor?

    Has anyone had any experience with the 80Mp Aptus?

  9. #9
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by coulombic View Post
    So, you're inferring, as well, that the Aptus II 12 is, by image quality standards, the same as the IQ180, due to the fact that it has the same sensor?
    I'm not implying anything about image quality and won't until I have a chance to compare production versions of both backs side-by-side. At that point in time, I'll gladly report my findings along with supporting images to back them up
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  10. #10
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    So Jack, will that make the P45+ a collector's item?
    Go ahead and laugh, but I think the P45+ is still a very viable back --- in fact, I'd love to have one as my second... Heck, I wouldn't mind a P25+ as my second!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    159
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Go ahead and laugh, but I think the P45+ is still a very viable back --- in fact, I'd love to have one as my second... Heck, I wouldn't mind a P25+ as my second!
    Agreed -- the P45+ would make for an awesome second back. If for no other reason than the long-exposure capabilities.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Hong Kong / Asia
    Posts
    524
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I think it's safe to assume that Phase is keeping three distinct product lines; one line without all the bells and whistles but with the current sensors in the Leaf backs; and then another line with some bells and whistles, but not all of the latest sensors in the P series backs; then a more top line with bells and whistles and current sensors in the IQ backs. My guess is longer term the P series will drop out when the 80MP sensor becomes the entry-level chip, leaving the basic Leaf line and the bells and whistles IQ line as your choices.
    Would it not make sense from a sales point for Phase One to release Aptus-III with similar to IQ technology but implemented in Leaf's way... say within a year or two??? ... and lower price than IQ series.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders_HK View Post
    Would it not make sense from a sales point for Phase One to release Aptus-III with similar to IQ technology but implemented in Leaf's way... say within a year or two??? ... and lower price than IQ series.
    As Phase own Leaf, it would make sense for Phase to make the IQ series the Porsche 911 of the digi back market and the Aptus III the Cayman/Boxster. Both would share many similar parts and are equally brilliant but one ever so limited by its engineering to be never quite as quick/technologically advanced.

  14. #14
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    It's pretty simple Phase has 3 lines of products Mamiya, Leaf and Phase. The Phase will be there top end feature set even though they share the same sensor with Leaf on the IQ180 and Aptus 12 they also support different and the same platforms also. On the Phase IQ since Jack and I did test it you are paying for the tech over and above the Leaf. The feature sets are in a class on there own and for me worth the extra tech costs. Not that the Leaf is bad in anyway shape or form it just does not have the IQ feature sets and some shooters may not want that as well. The idea here is to serve the market as best it can to us the end user. By spreading out the 3 lines it fills all the gaps in the price category. Also the P series will not share the IQ series either it will remain in the lower feature set of the IQ. Hate the analogy but just like buying a Mercedes or Porsche and BMW. You will have a 3 series a 5 series and a 7 series BMW type line. Mamiya will be the VW. LOL Hey I own a VW so don't laugh. The real question of the day is simply are the feature sets worth that extra cost, if you ask me it is a big YES but that is me. I'm most likely doing a lateral to the IQ 140 and only reason is for the feature sets . I get nothing else from the sensor. Like anything else you have to justify the costs to the end use for you the shooter. It will make you no more money but for me this is a want that boarders on the need as it does help my shooting life with the features. I justified this to myself since I feel the tech will actually help me the shooter an in turn that will make my life a better place to be. Like anything else price or costs take a secondary place to what is more important to you.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Hong Kong / Asia
    Posts
    524
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Now come on folks I really do not believe your logics fly...

    ... as a Leaf user I much want an updated similar to IQ interface and technology BUT implemented LEAF;s way, not Phase One. And for less $$ than an IQ back

    I am certain there must be more folks in market...

    Read larger screen and different feature set. A tad slower is fine, but live view for tech cameras, live exposure stops info, e.g. highlight and shadow etc... and the lovely Leaf histogram...

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    I think that would be fabulous but can't help the feeling that Phase wants to position themselves as the cream (most expensive) of the digi back world. AKA Hasselblad during the 80's.

  17. #17
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Bingo
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  18. #18
    Workshop Member lance_schad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Phila./NY
    Posts
    1,146
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    The way I am experiencing this while doing a quite a few demonstrations on the IQ180 (prototype) and the Aptus II 12 this week is, that there are simply those who want the resolution , but don't need all the bells and whistles.

    I have met with a variety of types of photographers and I can sum it up simply like this.

    The studio professionals who soot tethered the majority of the time who were really excited about the IQ when walking through the door loved it, but then when we put the Aptus II 12 on the tripod and took the same shot, they saw virtually the same file @ $12k, less and most said "I really don't need the display because I shoot tethered, I don't really need USB3 and some of the other great features, but were torn with Sensor+". Sensor+ on this large of a sensor is very useful because the files are humungous! They also experienced the tethered live preview was a little better on the Leaf in Capture One, and also more of an improvement in Leaf Capture.

    The location shooters (Architectural, Landscape, Social) felt the opposite in most instances the were all over the IQ even with the the price premium because they loved the all the features especially the display. Being able to check focus at 100%, the tilt sensors and the concept of live view on the back itself.

    Heck they both shoot to Capture One , so the shooting part was seamless,a s well as the processing and editing between the two systems. Of course with Leaf you have the added benefit of using their excellent legacy Leaf Capture Software.

    They are both supported by PhaseOne as a company and us as a reseller which handles both lines is a big plus since they could compare them side by side. So either way they were feeling very comfortable and impressed with the both systems overall. There is also huge support network out and installed base of both Leaf and Phase worldwide.

    From what I saw the file quality (mind you the IQ is a prototype) looked virtually identical , but the color was different. That is because Leaf and Phase One used different color tables. It was not that one of them had better color. It is like what has been discussed here before Leaf and Phase have their own characteristic looks.

    I feel that this is great time for the photo industry because there are more options available at a variety of pricing levels.

    Just like Guy mentioned its similar to the auto industry, you can get a Toyota or a Lexus , they may both share the same engine and get you from point a to point b , but it is the amenities that are different. So options are good.

    Lance
    LANCE SCHAD - Digital Transitions - Phase One,Mamiya | Leaf,Arca-Swiss,Cambo, Profoto
    direct/cell:610-496-5586 office:877-367-8537x224
    http://www.digitaltransitions.com email:[email protected]

  19. #19
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    could someone clarify:

    does the aptus 12, 80 mp have the rotating LCD?
    does it have the zoom/focus check feature, and if so how well does it work using the LCD?

  20. #20
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    could someone clarify:

    does the aptus 12, 80 mp have the rotating LCD?
    does it have the zoom/focus check feature, and if so how well does it work using the LCD?
    The AFi-II/ Hy6 version has both the tilt screen and the rotating sensor. The R version (V mount) has the rotating sensor only (no tilt screen)

    The Contax, H and Phase/ Mamiya backs have neither a tilt screen nor a rotating sensor

    All models offer 1:1 zoom (AFAIK the only camera in the world that does it on the actual RAW file with/ without sharpening)

    IMBO on a tech camera (or on AFi/ Hy6) the AFi-II 12 is the most advanced DB money can buy these days, and the sales figures so far seem to support this:-)

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  21. #21
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    since i am thinking of this with the cambo, if the cambo could come with the Hy6 mount, one could have both back rotation and LCD articulation.

    but if in the H mount, (would be my other body!) no rotation or tilt screen.

    then it appears that the H mount with more limited features would be the way to go for both platforms...too bad

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    259
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    I have a wealth of Bronica ETRS equipment is there any back that will work on my gear? Joe

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,387
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    IMBO on a tech camera (or on AFi/ Hy6) the AFi-II 12 is the most advanced DB money can buy these days, and the sales figures so far seem to support this:-)
    Could you elaborate on this?

    I was under the impression the new IQ backs would be the best back to use on a tech camera due to the new screen with 100% zoom, focus mask and a limited (but hopefully very usable) live view function (if they get it working).

  24. #24
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by jsf View Post
    I have a wealth of Bronica ETRS equipment is there any back that will work on my gear? Joe
    All V mount Leaf backs work on the ETRS via an adapter made by either Silvestri or Kapture Group
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  25. #25
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    IMBO on a tech camera (or on AFi/ Hy6) the AFi-II 12 is the most advanced DB money can buy these days, and the sales figures so far seem to support this:-)
    Yair
    Bit of camera porn :-)

    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  26. #26
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    159
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    I have another question in reference to the Aptus II 12 -- does anyone know the maximum exposure time for this back? I've done some reading, and it seems as if the Aptus series is generally limited to 32 seconds. I understand that it's not a long-exposure camera by any means, but my hope is that I'll be able to get closer to a minute.

  27. #27
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    32 seconds is the longest exposure you can do right now

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  28. #28
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    159
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    32 seconds is the longest exposure you can do right now

    Yair
    Thanks, Yair. I figure 32 seconds is probably adequate, in any case. I've read there's a planned "interface change" for Leaf cameras in "Q2 2011." Have you (or anyone) heard anything about this?

    I'm also interested in the battery type for Leaf backs . . . do you (or anyone) happen to know the specific battery model? I'd like to look around at extended-capacity batteries for the back.

  29. #29
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by coulombic View Post
    Thanks, Yair. I figure 32 seconds is probably adequate, in any case. I've read there's a planned "interface change" for Leaf cameras in "Q2 2011." Have you (or anyone) heard anything about this?
    There's we will be releasing a firmware update for all Aptus-II and AFi-II backs in a few weeks which brings a new GUI with improved functionality and more up-to-date look and feel. You can see a couple of screen grabs in Michael Rechmann's recent review

    I'm also interested in the battery type for Leaf backs . . . do you (or anyone) happen to know the specific battery model? I'd like to look around at extended-capacity batteries for the back.
    Look for Samsung SBL-160 you should be able to find some compatible ones with larger capacity than the supplied 2,350mAh

    Best,
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  30. #30
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: IQ180 vs. Leaf Aptus II 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Could you elaborate on this?

    I was under the impression the new IQ backs would be the best back to use on a tech camera due to the new screen with 100% zoom, focus mask and a limited (but hopefully very usable) live view function (if they get it working).
    I am of course biased but the Aptus-II/ AFi-II are available TODAY in all mounts and they offer some unique features that do not exist in other backs. They also offer a 3.5" screen with areliable 100% zoom that is quite unique as it uses the raw file to generate a cropped preview with/ without sharpening (depending on your settings).

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •