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Alpa STC (or other) vs Leica M8/9 dilemma

baxter

New member
Here is my quandary over the choice of a 'travel' camera.

This July/August I am visiting 4 islands of Hawaii with my two children for nearly 3 weeks, as a once in a lifetime holiday. When I return, I want to have memorable pictures with good IQ and no regrets for having travelled with an 'inadequate' camera set-up.

Taking the Phase One 645DF, P45+ and 4 lenses/tripod etc is almost certainly a non-starter, due to weight/bulk. I currently have an M8 with 3 lenses (Zeiss 28 & 50 and CV 90mm) and also a Panasonic GF-1 with the 14 and 20mm lenses. I struggle to do well with and like the GF-1. Its days are probably numbered.

My cheapest option is to go with the M8. Which then leads me to think what about selling it and getting an M9? The cost of this change is not insignificant, especially if I change a lens and leaves my biggest financial asset, the P45+ sitting at home....

Enter the Alpa.... Even more expensive, but enables me to use the P45+ and I have been impressed with feedback from the fanbase of STC owners here. I still have a Schneider SS-110mmXL and so would need another lens, probably in the 40mm range. Logic for identifying the STC over the TC is the shift facility which I could use when back home too.

The P45+ doesn't offer ISO much above 400 and focussing on Alpa isn't as slick as the M8/9 etc etc. I see little point in spending lots of money for the privilege of obtaining out of focus 39MPixel shots!

There is of course the Canon 5D mkII or similar.... but somehow this seems too sensible as well as bulky. I've always preferred Nikon ergonomics and the unobtrusive nature of the Leica. Going this route, I would buy used and sell straight after the trip.

Those of you who use, or have used either an M8, 9 or an Alpa (or similar) as a travel camera, please can you offer me some advice based on your experience? Can you please allay my fears about focussing the Alpa? I have read the threads here in Dante's and wouldn't want to take a laser rangefinder too!

Playing devils advocate, the cost of swapping gear will almost certainly be significantly more than excess baggage for the Phase One 645DF system; might this really be my best option...?!

The reason for posting this far ahead of my departure is that I would want to make any change leaving sufficient time to ensure I can use it optimally.

Many thanks
 

thrice

Active member
If I could trade my M9 kit for an STC with a P45+ with two lenses I would in a heartbeat.

The M9 is good, but the files cannot compare to what I've seen/downloaded/edited from the P45+
 

fotografz

Well-known member
"Once in a lifetime trip with my children" ... is the key phrase here.

In your opinion, which choice would allow you to freely and spontaneously participate in this experience, and enjoy being with your children, recording the experience, place and things you do together without turning every picture opportunity into a major production?

Personally, it would be a no brainer decision ... I'd take my two M9s. However, if you get an M9, I'd hold onto the M8 as back-up and not sell it until you return ... and I would offer the same advice if you get the Alpa. You do not want to be without a "Once in a lifetime" back-up IMO.

Your "to sensible" DSLR choice is just that, "sensible". With the Leica and the Alpa, you are limited in reach and lower light abilities, which you may or may not wish you had once you are there (depending on what and how you like to shoot). Take a look at the Sony A55 which is really tiny, takes Zeiss/Sony lenses, and is more fun than a barrel of monkeys to play with. Coupled with a Sony 50/1.4, it provides very low light abilities. Add on longer zoom and you have the reach ... if you think you'd use it.

A cheaper route with lot's of flexibility could be your M8 and a Sony NEX5 with an M lens mount adapter, and a long zoom for the NEX. Back-up, low light ability, and reach in a small package. Small may be VERY desirable if you are traveling from one island to another over the three weeks. "Big" becomes a big PITA really fast when moving from one destination to the next.

If I were traveling to this destination alone or with my wife, with the express purpose of making photographs, I'd take my MFD kit ... but if I was there to experience it all with my children, I would not. We all often feel compelled to use our best tools when an opportunity like this arises ... however, enjoying our families comes first IMO.

My 2¢

-Marc

P.S., this doesn't take into account the desire factor ... if you have a burning desire for an ALPA, and think you could master it in time, then no amount of reasoned thinking or logic can quench that desire ... "Abandon hope all ye who enter here." :LOL:
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Comparing Alpa and MFD with M8 or even M9 or even less comparable 5D2 or Nikon D700 is kind of strange.

Going with kids (family) and using MFD or Tech Cameras is even more incompatible in my eyes (and due to my experience).

If you want highest quality then Alpa would be definitely the best way to go. But I doubt it would be a good combination while traveling with family.

Actually an M9 with some good glass would do perfectly, also for high quality shots, but I agree that the price point is really high for switching from M8 to M9 - reason I have NOT done this so far.

Currently, after numerous investigations and tests, if I would have to go and shoot in such a situation, I would go for a E5 with some good lenses, of course best would fit the 14-35 and the 35-100, although a bit heavy, so maybe an alternative could be the 12-60 and the 50-200. The E5 delivers exceptional results up to ISO 1600 and while not comparable with MFD WRT MPs the pixel quality is for sure the sam, which is a result of the very weak AA filter used in the E5. I personally prefer meanwhile the results from my E5 to the ones from the M8 I owned and maybe the M9 is a bit better, but again all the mess with primes only and fine adjustment of lenses etc etc is what was not worth for me to get one.

While it sounds strange that a 43 E5 might compete pretty well in the area of high IQ - even with some older MFDBs, I found this to be true. Test yourself, you will not be disappointed.

Plus you could easily (while relatively cheap) get 1 or 2 high speed primes (Sigma, Leica) or even older lenses from the film days with a 43 adapter, which are really cheap. I thought I would never say this, but currently I am having lot of fun with an old 3.5/50 Zuiko Macro lens and 43 adapter.

Plus you always can take a GH2 or GF2 as backup camera with maybe a 1.7/20 or something similar.

Think through this, try it and then decide. I hardly could believe you would sell the E5 after the trip ;)
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
"Once in a lifetime trip with my children" - pretty much rules out the Alpa unless you want to use it as a P&S. Too much time and effort to use effectively unless you're expecting to have time to spend shooting landscapes etc. Now that's not to say it can't be done but you're going to want the flexibility of higher ISOs with the tech camera outfit if you want decently short exposures at f/5.6 or higher to maintain image quality. Take a tripod. If you're not shooting off a tripod then you'll probably be zone focusing - nothing wrong with that so long as you know what you're in for.

Personally, and this my totally biased opinion based on years of world travel with photography being a secondary reason for being there, I'd go with the Leica option. The 28/50/90 combo would work well with either the M8 or M9 and as Marc mentioned, keep the M8 and take it along as a backup. You couldn't get an STC and a couple of lenses for less than the outright cost of an M9 anyway so why tempt fate and sell the M8. The only thing I'd consider changing would be to add something at the wide end like a 21mm or so. I also always pack a Gitzo traveler tripod too btw.

DSLR - sure. More flexible for low light and telephoto use. Bigger and bulkier to haul around than the Leica though and if you're prepared to go that route then you may as well bring along the Phase One system as the size & weight won't be THAT much different unless you're looking at smaller compact DSLR's and consumer glass.

I'm sure you're going to get suggestions all over the map on this one!
 
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cng

New member
My two cents, in no particular order:

1. I would take the system that I was most comfortable and most familiar with. You surely have a camera that you automatically reach for first when you walk out the door. Mine is my D700.

2. I'm not sure what you're planning to shoot (your family, landscapes, everything ...?), but I would also aim for the system that is smallest and most compact. Not necessarily your Panasonic though, since you don't like using it.

3. If you're thinking of an M and can afford to upgrade to the M9, then why not? You get FF and no crop factor with your lenses.

You mention its a "once in a lifetime" trip, and I understand you want maximum IQ, but a kit that's too unwieldy/too slow/too precious/etc may detrimentally affect your trip in its own way. Similarly, too much gear can do the same thing. I find that having less gear focuses your shooting while also taking a lot of pressure off so that you can relax and enjoy the trip itself.

Finally, if it were me, I would take either the M8/9 or a DSLR. When I have my son with me I take only my D700 with 35mm f/1.8 and 85mm f/1.8. Unfortunately, my M6's are spending more and more time in my camera bag these days.

The D700 is a solid, rugged body that is not too big (for me) and produces beautiful files of a manageable size. The prime lenses are really compact (especially the 35mm) and the fast apertures prove really convenient in low-light and for portrait shooting. In fact, I always shoot both lenses wide open at f/2. Always.

Having just one wide and one long prime lens allows you to cover most things without cursing that you wish you had something wider/longer/faster, while also freeing you up from constant lens changes or fiddling with zooms.

But this is just my personal preference based on my style of shooting.
 

Geoff

Well-known member
Very much appreciate this post, as the dilemma is shared. Its hard to explain, but there is a struggle between having the camera that is a pleasure to use vs. one which fits the profile correctly. For longish travels, or speedy situations, the M8/M9 always makes good sense. Hard to resist. Its the "travel" camera of choice, esp. with family.

I've taken to taking the MFDB solution as well on trips. Its size and weight are a PITA, but some of the most meaningful shots of the trip come from its (infrequent) usage. For most of the trip it hides in a compartment, with regret for bringing any other lenses for it (weight). But for a quiet 2 hour walk about shoot, its lovely. The secret is to use it only for specialness.

Consider the M8 as the main family/shooting/travel camera. Bring the MFDB if you have room, keep it light as can be - not as a substitute, but rather as a special camera when/if you have time. That way, you don't need all the MFDB gear, or those extra lenses that weight so much.

Are there more sensible options? Sure, and you know them as well. But if they don't give pleasure, or you won't like them, then don't use them. The M8 is a good travel camera, as it covers both the fun and simple events, as well as being able to make fine art. My lenses of choice are the 28 and 50, maybe as a wide if you want (CV 21 is OK, the CV15 is very good and cheap.).
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
This is a dilemma in everyday life. All I can say is you know how hard it is NOT to shoot my Phase gear at any given time knowing how great the files are. Almost impossible and anything less is just not worth my time. LOL

Well obviously I get paid as well to shoot my Sony's but honestly the image quality is so much better in MF that it really is hard to downgrade. But given this situation maybe MF is not the best tool to use and compromise comes into play ( your married you know that word). The key here is use what will get the shots the easiest and fastest with your kids and maybe a M9 is good for you or not. Some have trouble going fast with a RF I do not so it depends on how quick you are and if not than maybe a small DSLR maybe better with AF like a Sony A55 or a Can/Nik setup but there mid range gear to keep the bulk down. In all honesty my Sony 850 and lenses are just as much work as my MF and weight and bulk so for me I try to go Phase all the way but the Sony has it's place. But on a vacation maybe a A55 or M9 would be better. I know one thing if i had life my way it would be my Phase kit and a M9 kit for these moments. I hate DSLR's 35mm any more but that is ME

Now on workshops I do not waste my time with anything but MF. For commercial reasons it could be whatever is going to work best given the situation. So all these types of decisions are based on what I am doing or what I expect of the results. Vacation time in most cases I take nothing, its my vacation but Photography is my job too. All about whats best for you and your expectations with results and your style.
 

baxter

New member
Thanks for so many lengthy and well thought-out responses.

One of the reasons for posting today is that tomorrow I am visiting focus the UK's big photo expo and wanted to identify products to investigate. Sadly Olympus and Leica will not be there (nor indeed I understand Canon), but I will be able to look at Alpa, Sony and some of the other suggestions. I've not handled an Alpa and want to see how big they get with viewfinder etc and how quickly they can be operated. I do envisage some point-and-shoot with it Graham, but would have a tripod with me too.

Having recently come from 10 years of LF with Ebony, I am not worried about the workflow for a 'Tech' camera. Like Peter, historically I have struggled to justify the expense of the M9 over the M8 which is why I am opening up the playing field.

Bulk-wise there is little to choose over the 645DF and D3X with Zoom lenses and I sold my D700 with the 3 f2.8 zooms 6 months ago since my 'go to' camera immediately became the 645DF.
 

ggriswold

New member
I am thinking if you take the MF gear you won't take as many shots as you really want to. If you can jump to a M9 and get a 35mm Summicron ASPH you won't be sorry. DSLR is so bulky you could have taken the MF with a Phase One/ Mamiya body and a lens or two and be free to shoot. A tech camera on a vacation isn't really practical unless you have a patient family.
I just sold all my Nikon gear, got a M9 and a few lenses and it has worked out better than I ever imagined. The 75 Summicrom ASPH is a killer too. Hard part is getting the glass for the M9.
 
H

Hikari

Guest
You have a Leica M8. It is a fine camera and perfect for your trip. Use that.
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Enter the Alpa.... I still have a Schneider SS-110mmXL and so would need another lens, probably in the 40mm range. Logic for identifying the STC over the TC is the shift facility which I could use when back home too.
I have a bit of experience with the Alpa and it would be viable for landscapes on a monopod...not for family shots unless you want 40's era snapshots which can be compelling in their own right. Forget the SS-110XL - would need to be remounted and I doubt that you would save much money or get it mounted in time for the trip. A 45 Apo Artar or 47 Schneider would be great.

However I think Marc is correct...M8/9 couple of lenses and my choice would be the GH-2 with adapter for your Leica glass. All of it smaller than your MF and one lens. The NEX would work also. This would allow intimate closeup and macro plus an occasional video of the kids.

Took me years to admit that vacations are for others....workshops and photo trips for me.

Sounds like a wonderful opportunity that your children will remember for a lifetime...minimize your kit so you can enjoy it with them.

Bob
 

woodyspedden

New member
Well pretty much everything has been said and said well.

I don't personally think that IQ is the foremost quality one would look for in a "once in a lifetime vacation with family." Of course if you are planning to print very large I might change my mind.

I would think the most important parameter is usability. The M8, which has extremely good files, with at most three lenses would get you all you need in this regard with no new expenditures immediately. Of course an M9 is better but at prints 8x10 or smaller there is not that much advantage. IMHO.

The Alpa is simply too complex when dealing with fast moving children. With the appropriate lenses it may be the ultimate in landscape work for you but too many things to do before taking the shot and the shot you originally wanted may now be gone.

I do agree with Marc Williams that a Sony A55 might be an ideal choice what with AF et al. But of course for you, this would mean investing in yet one more system.

Just my thoughts on the matter

In any event, with whatever camera(s) you choose to use, have the vacation of a lifetime and I bet that will be reflected in your images.

Woody
 

mvirtue

New member
Last summer I made a conscious decision to leave my SLRs, pre MF, at home on the summer trip to the Oregon coast with my daughters (+1 friend). I know it is not the trip of a lifetime to Hawaii, but I chose to buy a cheap dunk-able P&S. It went everywhere with us. Did I miss my 1Ds or my 70-200? Yes. But I would not have traded having them with me to wandering through tidal pools exploring with the kids. Not worrying if my gear was safe was an added bonus.

It probably helps that I prefer people pictures to landscapes, so absolute technical perfection is not needed. And I know that the audience for those images will see them as web sized images and not care what they were taken on. They will only see the girls having a good time in pretty places.
 
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GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
I've not handled an Alpa and want to see how big they get with viewfinder etc and how quickly they can be operated. I do envisage some point-and-shoot with it Graham, but would have a tripod with me too.

Having recently come from 10 years of LF with Ebony, I am not worried about the workflow for a 'Tech' camera.
Bulk-wise the Alpa with a short lens such as a 35mm or 43/47mm can actually be pretty small and portable. (Btw, see Hiking with the TC + Aptus 5). It almost feels like an old press camera with this setup & VF. When you start adding anything longer such as a 90mm+ then very quickly you've got something that weighs and is almost the same size as the 645DF.

Since you've shot LF then you'll be right at home with the shooting flow.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Vacation...
tough
I probably would take something light.
I use my Panasonic micro 4/3rds now as my light cheap kit.
But again, it depends on where and what I planned to do.
If I were going say to New Zealand or Iceland, then I am sure that MF would be my main camera, Japan mainly in the cities, then the Panasonic would be all that would come.
I USED to carry a Canon kit or a Leica rangefinder kit with me on vacation, but I now realize looking at thousands of images, the best camera is the one you are carrying usually and I adjust the kit based on the difficulty it might be to get it replaced or repaired on the road.
-bob
 
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